Author Topic: Oathbound...a new idea  (Read 17707 times)

RushAss

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2018, 02:06:24 PM »
The Elves then reform in good order rather than flee.  In essence, they become skirmishers for a moment so that their rout is more of a withdraw and thus doesn't grant the pinch bonus.

I must say that when you look at it this way, it totally plays into the High Elven flavor when you consider the Maneuver Mastery component as well.  They've been practicing warfare for a ridiculously long time and one of the things they've achieved during that time is the ability to exit a bad situation in a more orderly fashion than their younger opponents.
"We are young wandering the face of the Earth
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Learning that we're only immortal for a limited time"
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gornhorror

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #136 on: August 07, 2018, 08:46:37 AM »
All I know that whatever this card becomes, it needs to be on the upper end of the power curve.  (At least as good as Ordered Retreat or I kill you myself for example).

I've played the +1/+1 version and it doesn't meet that standard as far as I can tell.  Negating the rear attack bonus is not enough. 



« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 10:39:05 AM by gornhorror »
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Hannibal

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #137 on: August 07, 2018, 08:55:30 AM »
All I know that whatever this card becomes, it needs to be on the upper end of the power curve.  (At least as good as Ordered Retreat or I kill you myself for example).

I guess that's where we'll have to disagree.  I think High Elves are already on top of the power curve, so I don't think the faction needs a boost.  I agree that Oathbound is kind of a lame card, but my perspective is that any changes to it should be lateral:  not affecting the power of the card, just doing something different.

I respect that we won't agree on that fact, so rather than us keep having the "Tastes Great, Less Filling" type debate back and forth, I'll bow out of this one.   ;D

gornhorror

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #138 on: August 07, 2018, 10:58:03 AM »
I have no problem with the back and forth.  I just want this card to be something that is useful for the faction. +2 courage all around just doesn't fit them and doesn't allow for mitigating a failed rout check like some of the other better cards out there.

Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Hannibal

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #139 on: August 07, 2018, 12:17:06 PM »
I have no problem with the back and forth.  I just want this card to be something that is useful for the faction. +2 courage all around just doesn't fit them and doesn't allow for mitigating a failed rout check like some of the other better cards out there.

Oh, I wasn't like rage quitting or anything.  I just have a different design philosophy and don't want to waste your time if we have different desired outcomes.

IMO, what makes the High Elves such a top tier faction is that they are good at the two things that are king in Battleground:  matchups and maneuverability.  They have one of the widest variety of units of all the factions.  They have almost the same variety as Dark Elves.  They have less lower-end (i.e. sandbag) units, but they can field a variety of viable builds from 5" movers that punch to a grindy line of Battle Squads and EB Swordsmen.  What makes this even better is that between Sprint & Maneuver Mastery, they are better at making their good matchups happen fast and their bad matchups happen slow.  Which simply cannot be overstated how powerful that is.

One of the only weaknesses of them is that they lack a Courage bailout.  So when you fail that Cge 13 Yellow check, a hole opens in the line and there's very little High Elves can do about it.  Which makes a viable counter strategy to them either A) grind out across a wide front or B) hit those Battle Squads with a big thump unit like Knights or Marauders.  Option A is "He will fail 1 in 4 checks, so I will make him take as many as possible."  Option B is "I'm gonna take all 8 boxes off as fast as I can.  And if he fails that Cge check, it's bonus for me."

Given how strong the faction is, the only way I'd be willing to entertain taking either of those options off the table would be to weaken something else (And I know this is shading away from House Rules and into Rules Team a little bit).  So if Oathbound becomes as good as I Kill You Meself or even Ordered Retreat, I'd only agree to that if (picking something out of the air without really thinking about it), Maneuver Mastery only negates -1 MC or even went away entirely.


That said, one thing that bugs me about where the HE's are now is the "double loss" of one of the HE beatstick units failing that Courage check.  What I mean is that, if your Battle Squad blows a Cge check then it has failed to do 1 job:  prevent a breakthrough.  Yeah that's bad, and it may be the unit's only job.  But, if you have a HE Knights or Eb Sword unit, that unit has two jobs:  prevent a breakthrough and create a breakthrough.

So when the Knights blow their check, it's not just one step back on the path to victory.  It's two steps back.  Because now he's pinching AND you have lost one of your beatstick units.

And sure that can happen in a lot of factions.  But usually you have a Courage bailout or the unit is sufficiently powerful (i.e. T4 or a lot of hit boxes) that you can play cards to mitigate that.

So if there was an area to improve on, I'd say it's making that blown test be only a single step back on the path.  That's why I like negating the Rear Attack bonus and then auto-rally[1].  This lets you get your beatstick unit back in the fight.  Which means the enemy has a choice:  pinch (and expose their flank) or go after the rallied unit to finish it off.  In other words, the enemy either destroys your breakthrough unit or it breaks through your line.  So now your beatsick unit is only failing at one of its jobs.  The card turns a "double loss" into a "single loss."



[1]Mind you, this Green card means you can still play a Blue card on those free strikes.  Yes that gets pricey in terms of Command Cards, but it means that you really can do your best to preserve that unit if you need to.

gornhorror

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #140 on: August 07, 2018, 05:20:54 PM »
Quote
Mind you, this Green card means you can still play a Blue card on those free strikes.  Yes that gets pricey in terms of Command Cards, but it means that you really can do your best to preserve that unit if you need to.
Quote

I had no idea that playing blue cards was an option.  If that's the case, then +1/+1 and a reform is totally fine.   I really didn't think it was going to be like an attack storm where you could also play blue cards.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:34:54 PM by gornhorror »
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gornhorror

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #141 on: August 22, 2018, 02:33:03 PM »
Wow, I just want to make a post because this discussion board is a ghost town.  I think I just saw some tumbleweed. :) (gentle wind blows...........)

Oh, did I mention, Oathbound is such a boring, unexciting card.  This card needs to be changed/altered to give it some pizzaz.  Helping the High Elves mitigate failed rout checks in the process would be good too.

Can some people try the latest version and see if you like it?

Just a reminder.....it is.....Oathbound:  Play on one of your units after it fails a rout check.  This unit gets +1/+1 for the post rout free attacks.  Rally this unit at the end of the turn.




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RushAss

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2018, 01:37:20 PM »
We'll play it  :)
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Hannibal

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Re: Oathbound...a new idea
« Reply #143 on: August 28, 2018, 10:37:55 AM »
Honestly, I think you should move this to the Rules Team forum.  See if you can convince Scott that it's a fix that doesn't overpower High Elves.