Author Topic: championship packages, bids, and game resuls  (Read 2735 times)

Kevin

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championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« on: March 26, 2014, 08:47:00 AM »
In three rounds at the recent tournament, players would bid on a "package" of sugar cubes.  The high bid would get the package, and would pay an amount equal to the average of the two bids.

Here are the results so far; price paid is on the left.  The player on the left got the package.  The winner of each game is in bold.


Package #1

Quote
- You start the game with 2 Command Cards of your choice in your hand.

- You get two "negation tokens," each of which can be used once to “negate” an opponent's command card.  (= The negated card is discarded without effect.  It counts as not played--the opponent immediately may play another card instead.)  Any cards discarded as part of playing a negated card (e.g. Roll with the Blow, or a card played on a unit where you must pitch to play) are returned to the player's hand.

- After deployment, but before orders, write two different letters on one unit.  Letters last all game, and have the following effects:
M)  +1 MC
R)  +1/+0 vs. range attacks
C)  +2 courage
D)  Before damage prevention, if the unit’s engaged attack does no damage, it does one damage.

162.5     Dave (Liz) 210 vs Blakely (Dwarves) 115
159     Ron (High Elves) 177 vs. Kevin (Rome) 141
157.5     Jaime (Liz) 175 vs. Brook (Ravenwood) 160
101     Chad (Carthage) 102 vs. Manny (Dark Elves) 100
206     Mike (Orcs) 300 vs.  Marcus (Umenzi) 112


Package 2:

Quote
- Before Army build, your opponent names one unit.  You then name one Core or two non-Core units which were not named by your opponent.  (You may name mercenaries.)  Your opponent may not take the units that you name in his/her army.

- Your army may have one fewer Core unit than normally is required.  (For a 2000-point game, this means you may deploy as few as 3 Core units.)

- You may deploy up to half of your units outside of your deployment zone.  These units must be deployed entirely on your half of the map.

- After deployment but before orders, mark any two of your units.  These marks last for the duration of the game.  Each unit with this mark can have its orders changed (if the unit is not auto-Close), be rallied, or be Direct Controlled for 1 fewer Command Action than normal.  (For most units, this means for free.  But, for example, Ogres would cost one CA rather than two.)

- At the beginning of each of your turns, one of your units (your choice each time) heals one point of damage.  This can be combined with other forms of healing/regeneration.

189.5   Brook (Ravenwood) 199 vs. Blakely (Dwarves) 180
244  Dave (Liz) 301 vs. Kevin (Rome) 187
180    Ron (Liz) 180 vs. Jaime (Liz) 180 over  (Ron got the package by die roll since the bid was a tie.)
221 Chad (Carthage) 230 vs. Marcus (Umenzi) 212
125  Manny (Dark Elves) 200  vs. Mike (Orcs) 50


Package 3 (in the semifinals, so only 2 games played)

Quote
- Before army build, your opponent names two units which are in his faction.  Then you name up to three different units in your opponent’s faction which were not named by your opponent.  You may not name more than 1 Elite unit, and the combined point cost of the units you name must be no more than 1000.  Your opponent must put at least one of each of the units you name into his army.  Note that you may only name units in his proper faction, not mercenaries.

- Before army build, choose any one Core unit type from any faction other than your opponent’s faction.  You do not have to tell your opponent your choice, though it will become obvious in deployment.  You may use this unit type in your army as a “guest unit,” under the following rules:


Quote
  - It is treated as one of your units (not a mercenary) for purposes of command cards.  In
        other words, you may play any of your command cards on it normally (as though it were in your faction).

   - It comes with any faction abilities associated with its faction, and does not get any
      faction abilities associated with your faction.  For example, if you are playing Hawkshold,
          and you choose Dwarf Spearmen as your “guest unit,” your Dwarf    
          Spearmen may be Sprinted and/or have their Rune of Uruz marked, and are not slowed    
          by going uphill, but they may not receive Bravery.  

   - The unit is considered part of its original factions for purposes of any special unit abilities.
          For example, if you select Roman Triarii as the guest unit for your Hawkshold army, any Hawkshold
          units backed up by the Triarii will not get the extra attack die.

   -  In your army, this unit type is treated as Elite and not Core.  (This limits how many you can take.)


- Before army build, pull up to four cards out of your opponent’s command card deck.  These cards are not used this game. However, the cards you pull out of your opponent’s deck may not affect unit courage, rout checks, or routing.

- During army build, mark one unit--the mark lasts all game.  Units with hard-wired Close orders (e.g. Crazed Goblins) can not be marked.  At the end of any turn (yours or your opponent’s) you can the marked unit to be a “Skirmisher” or a “non-skirmisher.” Changing a designation does not cost command actions.  While a unit has the “skirmisher” status it gets +1/+0 vs. range attacks and follows all Skirmisher rules.  (e.g. if final rushed by a non-skirmisher it take automatic damage and routs)

- The following rules apply to units on which you can play command cards normally.  If a unit requires 1 or 2 cards to be pitched in order to play a card, you must pitch a similar number of cards to take advantage of the following rules:


Quote
       Any command card in your hand may be discarded for any one of the following effects:

   - Discard during the M&C phase to give a unit +1 MC for the turn.  A unit may receive this benefit at most once per turn.

   - Discard during an attack to change one die to a 6 (like playing “Fumble”).  This does not count as playing a command card,
          but this may be done no more than once per attack.

   - Discard before a unit rolls a courage check.  The unit automatically passes that courage check (or in the case of a Wuxing
          construct unit, the unit does not break down).  Note that this function can not be done on Ghoul Packs, since they don’t
          roll their check.


185  Dave (Liz) 211 vs. Kevin (Rome) 159
147.5  Jaime (Liz) 165 vs. Marcus (Umenzi) 130
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:29:21 AM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Kevin

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2014, 08:56:20 AM »
My 2 cents...

On the value:

It looks pretty clear that the value of Package #1 was in the mid-100s.  Chad got it for a lot cheaper and easily won; Mike paid over 200 and lost.

Package 2 is weird:  there's a good range, and the two games were the players got it cheapest they lost, while the three players who paid the most won! 
It's worth noting that in Package 2 I royally screwed up on which map to veto, and allowed Dave's entire army to turtle up in a corner on the High Ground with an archer while prohibiting my two breakthrough units.  He probably could've paid 500 for the package and still won that game!  

It looks like package #3 probably is worth in the mid-100s.  I recall Dave saying that he didn't consider Package #3 worth the price he paid for it (185), and I definitely felt advantaged.   Worth noting that neither package winner took any "guest units."



------------

In general, the bidding thing worked well, though some folks felt that the packages (especially the later two) were too complicated.  

It's worth noting that the bidding mechanism could be applied to very simple packages.  For example, you could take any Kingdoms Special Situation and have it apply to only one side and bid on that.  (If it's a bad scenario, such as Oppressive Heat, you bid on your opponent getting it.)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:31:50 AM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

mjungledog

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2014, 09:19:54 AM »
In my game vs. Mike, I bid 200 and Mike bid 50...
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RushAss

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2014, 09:28:51 AM »
If I where Ron in the game against Jaime I would have bid 400 points for package #2.  He didn't see it at the time, but if done right a High Elven force with that package is nigh unto unbeatable.
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Kevin

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 09:34:59 AM »
Thanks, Manny!  I updated the results.

Both the results and Marcus's point (plus, I suppose, the results of my game with Dave) illustrate that Package #2 probably was not a good package, as it may have helped some factions a lot more than others.  I'd tried to come up with packages that didn't obviously advantage one faction over another, but in this instance I think I came up short.  Definitely will replace Package #2 with something different if I do it again.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:06:21 AM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

gull2112

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 10:58:42 AM »
My only comments on the packages is that I would definitely err on the side of simplicity, as it is very hard to remember special rules in the heat of battle, and with the urge to "just get on with it."

If complexity is necessary, it should only involve set-up issues, like army building or deployment.

I think Kevin followed this pretty closely, and I just wanted to underline it.

Also, I think subtlety has to be sacrificed, because there isn't time to discuss the implications or analyze and fully appreciate them, although they can become painfully clear in-game.  :P

My words should carry some weight, as I finished in the top ten at a recent national tournament.  8)
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Dave-SWA

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2014, 03:00:29 PM »
Package #1 Stats

All bids in descending order (winning bids bold):
300
210
177
175
160
141
115
112
102
100

Average Bid:  159

Average winning bid: 193
Average losing bid:  126
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Dave-SWA

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2014, 03:02:44 PM »
Package #2 Stats

All bids in descending order (winning bids bold):
301
230

212
200
199

187
180
180
180
50


Average Bid:  191

Average winning bid: 222
Average losing bid:  161
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Dave-SWA

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2014, 03:03:47 PM »
Package #3 Stats

All bids in descending order (winning bids bold):
185
165

159
130


Average Bid:  160

Average winning bid: 175
Average losing bid:  145
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Chad_YMG

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 02:28:32 PM »
My 2 cents...

On the value:

It looks pretty clear that the value of Package #1 was in the mid-100s.  Chad got it for a lot cheaper and easily won; Mike paid over 200 and lost.

I think mid-100s is certainly reasonable, but "pretty clear" can't be inferred from four complex data points.  My game with Manny had a lot more to do with his Drakes and my Elephant meeting in an honest head-on charge than the package.  I think how much it's worth probably varies depending on the matchup, but if someone bid 150 for it in a generic game I'd want my bid to be 149.  :)  Of course, if someone else said that in that situation they'd want their bid to be 151 I wouldn't call them crazy.

Quote
Package 2 is weird:  there's a good range, and the two games were the players got it cheapest they lost, while the three players who paid the most won! 
It's worth noting that in Package 2 I royally screwed up on which map to veto, and allowed Dave's entire army to turtle up in a corner on the High Ground with an archer while prohibiting my two breakthrough units.  He probably could've paid 500 for the package and still won that game!
 

I think this highlights the difficulty of inferring the real value of packages from a small set of games.  I bid a bit high on mine in part because I thought Marcus was looking to bid high and in part because I thought he was right that losing this package was particularly painful for the Umenzi.  The most significant thing the package did was allow me to limit his army design choices (no GWE or Chosen) but I've played plenty of Umenzi builds that didn't feature anything more powerful than Worthy (and some that were not Worthy, so to speak) so measuring how powerful this was is tricky.  It sure felt good to know he didn't have anything that could beat a unit of Elephants in a fair fight, but that battle could easily have gone his way.

Quote
In general, the bidding thing worked well, though some folks felt that the packages (especially the later two) were too complicated.  

Agreed.  I thought it was a really neat idea and something I'd like to put out as a supplement, perhaps as a free Kingdoms PDF.  I also felt like less might have been more -- it really didn't take much in the way of special abilities to create a significant bidding challenge and to flavor the game, and I think there were diminishing returns in fun (but not complexity) as more things got piled on.  Just having one unit, for example, that could have its orders changed or be direct controlled for free (or one less CA, to be precise) influences the whole battle and is a challenge to value.

Quote
It's worth noting that the bidding mechanism could be applied to very simple packages.  For example, you could take any Kingdoms Special Situation and have it apply to only one side and bid on that.  (If it's a bad scenario, such as Oppressive Heat, you bid on your opponent getting it.)

Exactly.  This is a really fertile design space.  It's possible to create packages that are worth hundreds of points -- in a way this is what Corey has done with the Persian army ability -- but you can also do very small ones.  A big trick (at least for serious play) is making sure the packages aren't wildly out of balance for or against particular factions; this is more likely to be an issue with the big packages, of course.
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NegativeZer0

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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2014, 02:05:15 PM »
Quote
180    Ron (Liz) 180 vs. Jaime (Liz) 180 over  (Ron got the package by die roll since the bid was a tie.)

I don't like defaulting to a die roll right away like this.

Both player should bid again.  The second bid must at least match the original amount and can be as high as they want.

If neither player increases their bid then default to die roll.  
If both players increased their bid and the bids are still tied, bid again using the same rule.
The new bid must always match or exceed the previous bid.

Also thank you for doing this post and collecting the data.  I'm still upset I missed the tournament (stupid pneumonia) and getting to see this breakdown of the packages and how it all played out is great.  I'm a big fan of this although I will agree slightly that those packages might be a bit complicated.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 03:29:31 PM by NegativeZer0 »
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Re: championship packages, bids, and game resuls
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 04:46:56 PM »
Why insist that the new bid match or exceed the old?  It seems to me that a straight second round of bidding makes the most sense; I don't see a problem if one player decides, in retrospect, that he'd rather not win the package at X and so bids a bit lower the second time around.
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      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules