Author Topic: Lizardmen Units and Tactics  (Read 19377 times)

NegativeZer0

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Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« on: March 18, 2009, 02:53:21 PM »
Yay for stealing Ultiville’s layout

I'll list each unit and give a number of stars to each general role I think one might try to use it in, from
1-5.  If I don't list a given role it means I think it can't do that, but I could always be wrong or forgetful, so please respond and post your own if you like! There are also many people here who have played far more often than I have, so please give your feedback.

If you have a post you've made in another thread that you think fits in this one, feel free to post it; I think it would make some sense to have everything in one place.

General guideline to what the stars mean:

*:  It looks like this unit might be able to do this, but I've found that this is a trap.
**:  In select cases, the unit might not completely embarrass you trying to play this role.
***:  The unit plays the role competently.  Generally it won't work miracles, but it justifies its points in most games.
****:  The unit is excellent at that role.  I'll try to "upgrade" other units in that role to this one if I  can.
*****:  Centaurs.

Stars are points-adjusted, so you'll often see a unit that's better on the table getting fewer stars at a role, because it isn't enough better to make the points worth it in my opinion.

Roles:

Tank: This is a unit you use to soak up hits and last long enough for relief to arrive, without planning on it doing significant damage.
Light Infantry:  This is a unit that you plan to have last just long enough to get help, and maybe do a bit of damage while it's at it.  It won't stand up to a real damage unit, but it will prevent opposing tanks from embarrassing you by pinching in.  I think of this as the "offensive" version of the tank unit.
Heavy Infantry:  The game's generalist units.  They have good attack and defense stats, but neither is enough of a standout that they aren't capable of both dealing and taking some damage.  These are the non-specialist guys who you plan to use to cover contingencies and things like that.
Light Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in, either against weak units or into a pinch.  This plan involves breaking them on the first turn because the unit will be in trouble if you don't.
Heavy Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in and beat people up on the charge turn, but unlike Light Damage, you're trusting them to last a few turns if things go wrong.
Fire Support:  This is a unit you use to add fire where it is needed.  You don't count on them to get much done on their own, but combined with a reasonable infantry unit or other fire support, they can create holes in the opposing line and get things going.
Artillery:  The big guns.  These units add fire support, but the fire is meaningful enough that you are hoping they'll do big damage over the course of the game, rather than serving a dedicated support role.
Other:  Sometimes I'll put in another category, like "Centaurs" or "Bowriders" and explain it in the comments.

I'll also give every unit an overall score indicating how often I tend to play it.

Faction abilities:

Blood Frenzy:  +1 attack and +2 courage when engaged with a unit not in green.  Believe it or not the +courage is much more important than the extra attack.  Without this ability you will fail a lot of route checks.  You need to be making every attempt possible to ensure you trigger blood lust before your unit takes it's first route check or you may be looking at a unit running away and being cut down when it would have otherwise won.

Fury: 
+1 courage and removing it gives you a free damage, just like that no rolling or anything.  Well not quite, the downside is you first need to cause two damage and removing Fury counts as playing a command card.  What this means is you can't play a card to help get that second damage then remove Fury.  However if your units is already capable of doing 2 damage on its own then this ability is hands down better then drawing/playing a card every time.  But you do need to be careful about relying too much on this ability, if you don't cause that 2 damage marking off Fury costs you a command action and returns no benefit other than + 1 courage (a rather high cost for a small bonus).  Also be careful about when you remove Fury.  If you are looking at a crucial route check later that same turn you increase your chances of failing when you remove Fury.  Remember combined with blood frenzy Fury gives you a +3 bonus to courage which is HUGE.



Hatchlings

Light Infantry: **
Light Damage: *
Peasant Mob: ****
Overall: **

Ah the Peasant. Useless in almost every combat situation...  oh wait right we are talking about hatchlings.  In many ways hatchlings will be used much like peasants, however they do have one huge drawback, where peasants are core hatchlings are not.  So instead of hatchlings filling your core choices and expanding your other options they will instead usually be picked as a last option and only when you have points left over.  Their 5" move however means they can pull tricks peasants commanders can only dream of.

Swarmling Bowmen

Light Damage: *
Fire Support: **
Overall: *

For archers this unit is incredibly cheap which is normally a good thing but they pay for this both in range and power.  Some clever tactics can overcome the range handicap but with only 4 power your wounding on a 2 or less against pretty much everything.   If you must stand and shoot upgrade to trogs this unit is better off left home. 

Swarmling Warriors
Light Infantry: **
Light Damage: *
Filling in holes: ***
Overall: **

This unit has fairly poor stats across the board.  They are cheap and core but with only 4 power will do hardly any damage at all against most units.  This unit can also fill the peasant role but at 141 points it's an expensive substitute.  This unit is best when used behind your lines, you can take advantage of their 5" movement to quickly get to weak spots in your line and plug holes.

Trog Bowmen

Light Infantry: **
Light Damage: ***
Fire Support: ***
Overall: ***

Ah the only lizardmen ranged unit (whats that in the back, "Swarmling Bowmen"?  You didn't throw those in the trash yet?)  Seriously though if you need fire support Trog Bowmen will do the job well.  A great tactic is to use your bowmen to widdle enemy units down so that mutiple units are JUST in yellow.  This will give your own line a big advantage when it already has  blood frenzy on the charge.

Trog Warriors

Tank: **
Light Infantry: ***
Light Damage: ***
Overall: ***

Trogs are your "meat and potatoes" [I hate that phrase] line units.  They have average stats across the board and can stand toe to toe with almost any unit, at least for a couple turns.  That being said do not make the mistake of thinking Trogs can act as a tank.  Trogs will kill almost any other light infantry/damage unit in the game without any help but they will be crushed and running for the table edge before you even realize what happened if you put these up against a heavy infantry/damage unit.

Trog Spearmen

Tank: **
Light Infantry: ***
Light Damage: ***
Overall: ***

Upgrade Trog warriors to spearmen for the same reasons you would in any other army.  Nothing special here or different just again keep in mind that Trogs are NOT tanks even when you give them pointy sticks.

Raptor Pack
Light Infantry: ***
Light Damage: ***
Overall: ***

Raptor packs sole job is to run around the side of your battle lines and flank the enemy.  They are a little bit expensive for what they do but they do it relatively well.   Where the raptor really shines is when your fielding an entire line moving 5".  That extra inch on the raptors move is crucial to getting around the outside and flanking.  If raptors where cavalry they would easily be a 5 star unit but even as is they are still a decent and solid choice.

Tyrant Warriors

Tank: ****
Heavy Infantry: ****
Heavy Damage: ****
Overall: ****

Tyrant are easily a four star unit across the board (disclaimer: read others responses as most believe tyrants to be a 3 * unit due to points cost).  They have good stats in everything that matters, the (5)5/6 attack profile means they will be hacking down other infantry while maintaining most of their own health due to the 2/3 defensive stats.  Because of the heavy points investment it's even more important to trigger blood frewnzy before your unit takes it's first route check.  A command card or two against a tough unit should help you boost the tyrants damage enough so that you trigger blood frenzy and have a 14 or even 15 with fury before they have to take their first route check.

Tyrant Spearmen

Tank: ****
Heavy Infantry: ****
Heavy Damage: ****
Overall: ****

There tyrant warriors with pointy sticks what more could you ask for.  More important then with other spear units because of points investment you need to be careful if you decide to hold with these units.  When you field them Trog Spearmen become a crucial part of your front line and need to stay with the rest of your army.  Generally speaking if your Tyrant Spearmen aren't already engaged and are on hold your doing something wrong (but not always).

Ancients

Tank: **
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: ****
Overall: ***

Not much to be said about ancients they pretty much your standard big points big guy.  Impressive stats across the board and maneuverability to boot.  This unit will be a solid choice when you can afford him.  Just be careful not to be lulled into a false sense of invulnerability, with no yellow health ancients can't take much damage or they will quickly become inefficient and a liability to routing.

Triceratops Herd

Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: **
on the charge: ****
Overall: ***

The Triceratops Herd is an amazing and powerful unit on the charge and the added movement is a nice bonus, however you really want to stay away from charging other big targets/good spear units.  Both will bring down a Triceratops Herd even on the charge.  The biggest problem with the Triceratops Herd is if you don't kill or route the enemy unit on the charge you're now down to only 4 attacks and you're going to sit there in a long drawn out fight.  That being said the Triceratops Herd dose make for a decent tank when you need it too.

Tyrannosaurus Rex
Tank: ****
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: ***
Overall: **

The T Rex is an expensive uncontrollable Triceratops Herd on crack.  The only big stand out stat of the T Rex is an 8 power but you pay a heavy price for this stat namely the T Rex always being on close.  You can always add supporting units to help maneuver and control your T Rex but then your taking an already 500 point unit and increasing his cost even more.  The T Rex can be fun to play and even a very powerful and threatening unit at times but with the release of M&M there are better choices.  If you want to play with a big monstrous creature I suggest the hill giant as a 1:1 replacement for the t Rex any day.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:33:02 AM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
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NegativeZer0

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2009, 08:05:59 PM »
So is my review that good that everyone agrees or that bad that no one cares?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 08:30:49 PM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

gornhorror

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 09:12:28 AM »
Heh, I care.  The Lizardmen army is my 2nd favorite army next to the MoH.  I find that they are a "tough" army.  The battle frenzy ability makes them have the ability to comeback from a bad start.  Also, fury is a pretty good ability.  The extra point of damage usually forces the opponent to make that rout check one turn earlier than usual.  Which if they fail, can be game turning as we all know.  The tyrants are I think on of the best units in the game.  They are always a part of my lizzy armies.  Lately I've been also putting the raptorpack in my armies.  I've grown to like them a lot.  The speed is good & there stats are ok.  I know they are not calvalry, however calvalry wish they had as many boxes as they do, so it's a wash IMHO.  You can give them fury & they get battle frenzy, worth it in my book. The only thing I would change is the defensive stats. They would be much better as a 3/2.  It would make more sense to, they should be harder to hit, raptors were fast as hell and very agile. Anyways, if you haven't tried them, play the army, try different combinations of troops, and I'm sure you won't be dissapointed.  Also, as a goof, throw in the T-Rex once in a while! :o 
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Niko White

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2009, 09:37:03 AM »
So is my review that good that everyone agrees or that bad that no one cares?

I stickied it, laughed at how many stickies we have here now, went into the admin panel to see if I could give a humorous subtitle to the subforum about the number of stickies, discovered I could, decided I wouldn't, and had at that point forgotten to actually read your post.

I'll read it now.

Niko White

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2009, 09:49:26 AM »

In general, Fury sounds like something I am much more prone to mark than you are; but I also think +1 courage for a command action isn't so bad, given how much failing rout checks sucks.  Another thing to remember about Fury is that it can help you get the frenzy bonus; if you do two damage to someone with three green hits, say, then you are better off burning Fury because it gives you a net of +1 courage for the Blood Frenzy.  It is also significantly safer to use the Fury for extra damage on the opponent's turn, because you'll already have seen the results of the opponent's attack.  This means I'm prone to favoring using red cards on my own turn with lizards that have Fury marked.

I also think you're selling the Trogs a little short as tanks; I'm generally pretty happy putting them up against the line units of other factions given their effective 13 courage and the fact that it goes to effectively 15 base once they knock them into the yellow.  That's as good as a Hawk unit at that point.  Sure, Orc Marauders will do a number on them, but most tank units can't tank everything.  They'll still do a good job of countering reasonable threats for a fair number of turns.  Obviously not on the level of Tyrants, but they also aren't anywhere near the cost; I find Tyrants are definitely not something I want to use to fill my cores except at high points levels because they are just too expensive and pay for a lot of generalist type stats that they might not use at what they're doing at the time.

Also, I like the Triceratops Herd, but I do find the command and control issues it has become relevant pretty often.  Not being able to do anything with it but close and hold means you have to be careful not to get powerful spears set up against it because if you do it is going to be a lot of trouble to get it to do much.  It is pretty cheap for how well it holds up, though.

Kevin

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2009, 09:37:58 PM »
The utility of a unit is in large part affected by the scenario and the terrain.  Last week I took the lizzies in a battle where nearly half the map was unusable due to a lake, and in those close quarters--where my opponent had no room to run and little to maneuver--my T-Rex rocked.  It quickly ate spearmen and centaurs and was about to flank and eat a treant when my opponent conceded.

I plan to take a 2000-pt army of 2 T-Rexes, 1 ancients, and 4 swarmling warriors in the near future just to see how it works.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

boltana

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 04:06:57 AM »
The utility of a unit is in large part affected by the scenario and the terrain.  Last week I took the lizzies in a battle where nearly half the map was unusable due to a lake, and in those close quarters--where my opponent had no room to run and little to maneuver--my T-Rex rocked.  It quickly ate spearmen and centaurs and was about to flank and eat a treant when my opponent conceded.

I plan to take a 2000-pt army of 2 T-Rexes, 1 ancients, and 4 swarmling warriors in the near future just to see how it works.

You might be in trouble if you go up against an umenzi army.  Epsecialy if there is a lack of constricting terrain.  You'd be amazed at how fast a Trex can be brought down by 1 or more pinches.

NegativeZer0

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2009, 07:51:57 AM »
In general, Fury sounds like something I am much more prone to mark than you are; but I also think +1 courage for a command action isn't so bad, given how much failing rout checks sucks.  Another thing to remember about Fury is that it can help you get the frenzy bonus; if you do two damage to someone with three green hits, say, then you are better off burning Fury because it gives you a net of +1 courage for the Blood Frenzy.  It is also significantly safer to use the Fury for extra damage on the opponent's turn, because you'll already have seen the results of the opponent's attack.  This means I'm prone to favoring using red cards on my own turn with lizards that have Fury marked.

Actually I believe Fury to be better in almost every situation then drawing a card the problem I see is this leads to an over reliance on the ability from time to time where you don't cause 2 damage and have no cards in hand. 

I also think you're selling the Trogs a little short as tanks; I'm generally pretty happy putting them up against the line units of other factions given their effective 13 courage and the fact that it goes to effectively 15 base once they knock them into the yellow.  That's as good as a Hawk unit at that point.  Sure, Orc Marauders will do a number on them, but most tank units can't tank everything.  They'll still do a good job of countering reasonable threats for a fair number of turns.  Obviously not on the level of Tyrants, but they also aren't anywhere near the cost; I find Tyrants are definitely not something I want to use to fill my cores except at high points levels because they are just too expensive and pay for a lot of generalist type stats that they might not use at what they're doing at the time.

Against a heavy hitter or an actual tank trogs will almost always check before triggering their army abilities so your really relying on passing that first route check.  As this is your main line unit in Lizardmen you often don't have any other choice but to try and tank with trogs.  What I was trying to convey is you can't expect them to do it on their own.  If you need trogs to hold a crucial spot in the line expect to be playing blue cards on them.  In my opinion a tank should be able to hold out for multiple turns with out help from cards.  Trogs will begin to fold after the second round of attacks if you're not baby sitting them.

The utility of a unit is in large part affected by the scenario and the terrain.  Last week I took the lizzies in a battle where nearly half the map was unusable due to a lake, and in those close quarters--where my opponent had no room to run and little to maneuver--my T-Rex rocked.....

The T Rex can be fun to play and even a very powerful and threatening unit at times but with the release of M&M there are better choices.
  I never said the T-Rex was unplayable but I don't think he's the best choice for a heavy hitter.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:56:09 AM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2009, 09:29:49 AM »
I also agree with Ultiville concerning the tank rating for Trogs.  I think they should be at least 2 stars, and even 3 would not be that much of a reach when you consider the points cost.  Sure the 2/2 defense is pedestrian, but their stat bars are nice and fat.  Pretty standard for mid-level infantry IMO.

Even though the T-Rex can be a liability for the points, he's AWFULLY hard to hit with that 2/4 defense.  And his attack stats are nearly off the charts.  Sure he only throws 5 dice per attack, but many of those are going to stick.  And opponents rolling fear checks at a -1 can be big as it will make their charge turn attack cause minimal damage if they fail it. 

Despite this, well reviewed Sir!
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NegativeZer0

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2009, 09:49:32 AM »
I think they should be at least 2 stars

Oops Trog warriors should have been ** for tank just like the Trog Spears I didn't notice that.
Quote from: Chad_YMG
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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 10:43:30 AM »
I think you're probably overvaluing the Tyrants a bit.

A Tyrant is a really good unit, but you're paying for above-average offense AND above-average defense, which means you pretty much have to have drawbacks elsewhere in the line and may have overpaid for whatever his role is.

To put this in general terms, let's say that two players have lines with similar point values for most of the units and the decisive areas are where each side has a 300-point unit and a 100-point unit with each crap unit matched up against the opposing good one.

The 300 point units are going to win those fights, at which point they will begin the pinching and the slaughter and the screaming...and assuming all other things are equal the game can easily be decided by who wins their fight first.

If one of those units is a (5)6/6 and the other is a (5)5/5 (but has better defensive stats) the first unit is MUCH better at his job.  As I understand it, that's the whole point of Niko's rating system -- the second unit is better as a tank and the first is better as a heavy damage unit.  You've given Tyrants four stars across the board which should only be possible if he's undercosted.
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NegativeZer0

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 10:08:50 AM »
I see a 4 star rating being more for a unit that is perfectly costed for the job and any 5 star rating representing a unit is undercosted.

I also don't see 2/3 stats on a heavy hitter being a useless stat as it means you can bash through a decent unit and still maintain green health and thus not lose attack dice.  It's when you start getting into the 4 def stat category that I see it being overkill.

Perhaps for tank they should only be a 3 star as you pay a lot for the offensive stats but I just don't see that doing justice for what this unit can do.

I would not go as far as to say tyrants are undercosted but you defiantly get the full value of every single point you spend on them.  This with the fact they are core I believe earns them that 4 star rating.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 10:11:36 AM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
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Niko White

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 12:28:50 PM »
I see a 4 star rating being more for a unit that is perfectly costed for the job and any 5 star rating representing a unit is undercosted.

I also don't see 2/3 stats on a heavy hitter being a useless stat as it means you can bash through a decent unit and still maintain green health and thus not lose attack dice.  It's when you start getting into the 4 def stat category that I see it being overkill.

Perhaps for tank they should only be a 3 star as you pay a lot for the offensive stats but I just don't see that doing justice for what this unit can do.

I would not go as far as to say tyrants are undercosted but you defiantly get the full value of every single point you spend on them.  This with the fact they are core I believe earns them that 4 star rating.

Like Chad I disagree with you on this assessment, as I often find that some of your other tools will do just as well for whatever it is you want the Tyrants to do; if it were up to me I'd honestly give them two stars each as Tank and Heavy Damage because in either case I think you can get it done cheaper without giving up a whole lot, though it could be they deserve 3 on the heavy damage just based on the shortage of Lizarman units that fill that particular role very efficiently.  I'd get behind giving them a 4 for Heavy Infantry, because I consider that a role that is more or less a luxury versatile unit you grab when you have extra points, which basically describes the conditions under which I'll take Tyrants.

But a lot also depends on how you weigh the points value into it.  Obviously I give Battlesquads four stars as tanks and if points are of minimal importance then it'd be crazy to give Battlesquads four and Tyrants two, but especially for tanks how cheaply they do what needs to be done is highly relevant.  I don't give the Earth Elemental, for example, tons of "Tank" stars because he is expensive and difficult to manage, despite the fact that he'll last forever once he gets in there.

Because of this, I'd hesitate to claim you're out and out wrong, but since threads like this are for discussion, I'm providing my perspective on the issue, and that is, in sort, that Tyrants are a "sometimes unit."

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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 12:58:07 PM »
I don't play Lizardmen, but I've played against them lots.  IMO I'd rate Tyrants as 3 stars for both tanking and heavy damage.  They are super expensive for an infantry unit, but they can really make a mess (especially with Fury + Frenzy) and they do stick around for a long, long time.  They must be accounted for every time I face them.

So I guess I'm on the fence here.  Not that it matters much because I'm only speaking as the guy who's had to deal with them some, not the guy who plays them.
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Re: Lizardmen Units and Tactics
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2009, 12:50:48 PM »
When it comes to command actions in the Lizardmen army, Fury and Drawing cards are both important. I tend to fury my heavy units in the first two turns, then I use the majority of my actions to draw cards as much as possible. Cards are incredibly important to using Lizardmen effectively. I usually don't fury weaker units, unless I have an extra command action that I don't need, or I really think they can injure another unit. It's not a priority. Cards like Might, Cunning, and Sudden Strike can really make Tyrants, Ancients, and other strong Lizardmen units quite effective.