Author Topic: Umenzi units and tactics  (Read 14769 times)

Quelmotz

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 02:07:06 AM »
After taking a closer look at the rating, I think you've been too stingy with giving out stars.  :P

I think umenzi spearmen are an amazing upgrade from warriors for the incredibly low price of 17 points. I'll give them **** overall, but only **/***/**** for creating regret in large/cavalry units. Why? Their flimsy defensive stats make them super easy to smash through for cavalry/large units on the charge. However, it'll still depend on what you want them to do. Putting these guys against hydras, trolls, t-rexes, etc is just pure stupidity, as they'll die immediately if not rout. For the not-so-scary large units or cavalry, they're probably **/*** because they still can't hold there well enough. By this I mean 300-400 point range. Though knights on the charge is just too scary for them to handle. They're probably **** for taking down light cavalry, though my high elven opponent doesn't have much of them, so I can't really comment here. Chariots go down to just about anything above 200 points, especially if backed up by atlatlmen. Bowriders - if you're stupid enough to charge them into the front of spearmen alone, I'll LOL.

Javelineers should probably be **** too, but I find them near useless against the High Elves. I mean 3 of them threw javelins towards some battlesquads, and only one of them took a point of damage.

Berserkers should be **** overall IMO, but maybe its just because I like berserkers.  :D

Didn't you say in another thread that you were going to update worthy to ***? I think they're worth it (no pun intended), but not as good value as berserkers IMO.

And shamans should be ****, along with the High Priests. They're at least as good as High Priests, and more annoying due to the larger numbers. For 3 HPs you can get (almost) 4 Shamans.

I'm not too sure about the Chosen's **** rating, but if you like them this way, its ok.

The Giant War Elephant is only ** for tank? Is there a typo here? It should be at least ***. If not for the cost, I'll probably give them ****/***** for tank. I mean 7 (!!!) green health and 1/4 is more than enough to keep enemies in the 400 point range busy for quite a while. And also, add another category for them. "Attracting bowfire that does not much damage: *****". Most archers can't land a wound on these guys, despite the opponent's vain efforts. 5 power isn't going to hit much on 4 toughness. The Giant War Elephant is nice on the charge, but probably not that amazing. (maybe its just the annoying HE 3 skill) I rarely do more than 3 damage on the HE that I'm facing, whenever I bring along this fellow.

Note: The *s all mean rating. I hope you don't think I'm throwing swear words around everywhere.  :P
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 02:08:41 AM by Quelmotz »
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lazyj

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 08:53:52 AM »
I think High Elves are an outlier in terms of evaluation. Meaning if you are primarily using HE to determine how something performs in general, you are taking an extreme example and using it as a standard. So if you are basing these stars primarily on how Umenzi fight against High Elves you'll be a bit skewed.

That being said, you make some valid points. An extra attack die for 17 points is pretty nice, and the rest of the spearmen bonuses are gravy.

But I think the low score on the Tank role of the Elephant is accurate. It's a point efficiency score. Think of it this way, if all you wanted to do was block the enemy from moving past a certain point with a unit, would you prefer to take an Elephant or a Battlesquad? If you didn't care about the damage dealt the Battlesquad is a much better value. The Elephant pays a lot of points because you are expecting to do damage, so it has more stars in the Heavy Damage role. Sure it's hard to injure, but that's probably not enough of a reason by itself to bring it in your army.

And I have a tough time believing that your Elephant never did more than 3 damage to a High Elf unit. I crushed a Celestial Guard unit with an Elephant straight up. Remember you get two impact hits on the charge (the bane of HE everywhere because their cute little defensive skills mean nothing) and you do a minimum of 1 damage per turn you are engaged (in addition to any lucky hits with the javelins). Even against the Defense skill 3 units, you should do 2-3 damage on the charge and be able to force courage tests by the second combat turn.

RushAss

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 09:43:25 AM »
After taking a closer look at the rating, I think you've been too stingy with giving out stars.  :P
You know I was going to look over your fish men army, but now I must make a lengthy reply to this instead....
;)

I think umenzi spearmen are an amazing upgrade from warriors for the incredibly low price of 17 points. I'll give them **** overall, but only **/***/**** for creating regret in large/cavalry units. Why? Their flimsy defensive stats make them super easy to smash through for cavalry/large units on the charge. However, it'll still depend on what you want them to do. Putting these guys against hydras, trolls, t-rexes, etc is just pure stupidity, as they'll die immediately if not rout. For the not-so-scary large units or cavalry, they're probably **/*** because they still can't hold there well enough. By this I mean 300-400 point range. Though knights on the charge is just too scary for them to handle. They're probably **** for taking down light cavalry, though my high elven opponent doesn't have much of them, so I can't really comment here. Chariots go down to just about anything above 200 points, especially if backed up by atlatlmen. Bowriders - if you're stupid enough to charge them into the front of spearmen alone, I'll LOL.
Your right.  Umenzi Spears are going to get ploughed by just about any decent cavalry or monstrous unit.  But my reasoning for rating them high against the big nasties is that they WILL score damage in return and I feel that a 170 point unit that can inflict multiple points on the big nasty is a big deal.  Here's an example with no cards being played and no help from blessings/curses - a Hydra rams into a unit of Umenzi Spears.  As long as they succeed in their fear check (more likely than not) they will do 3 damage to the Hydra on the Charge.  If the Spearmen have Faith Armor (duh!) the Hydra won't even put them into the yellow with average dice.  Next turn, the Hydra will probably put the Spearmen into the yellow.  But the Spearmen would likely inflict another 2 points themselves in return.  Even if they route at this point, the Spearmen have inflicted 5 damage and given another unit an opportunity to flank the big guy.  If the Spearmen don't route, the Hydra regenerates a point, grows a head and slaughters the guys.  But the Spears will do at least another point on their way out.  So 5 damage fora  170 point unit against a 600 point unit and an opportunity to get somebody else into attack position.  I call that a win in my book


Berserkers should be **** overall IMO, but maybe its just because I like berserkers.  :D
I like them at *** myself.  IMO, of course.
Pros
1 - They do really good damage
2 - No routing or failed fear checks ever

Cons
1 - They die super quick as 1/2 defense sucks
2 - They are dumber than Paris Hilton

Didn't you say in another thread that you were going to update worthy to ***? I think they're worth it (no pun intended), but not as good value as berserkers IMO.
I did, and I upgraded them to ***.  They are a good unit on their own, just an odd fit with the rest of your guys IMO.  

And shamans should be ****, along with the High Priests. They're at least as good as High Priests, and more annoying due to the larger numbers. For 3 HPs you can get (almost) 4 Shamans.
Shamans are just as good of a buy for 100 points as the High Priests are for 130 points.  But the extra inch in diameter for the leadership is really useful and the Death Curse can be incredibly powerful against hard-to-hit enemy units.  And the extra courage is helpful if you're doing a ton of healing.  So I have to rate the High Priests Higher.

I'm not too sure about the Chosen's **** rating, but if you like them this way, its ok.
Chosen are easily one of the 5 best infantry units in the game.  They do consistent damage, last forever, and help inspire the troops.  What's not to like?

The Giant War Elephant is only ** for tank? Is there a typo here? It should be at least ***. If not for the cost, I'll probably give them ****/***** for tank. I mean 7 (!!!) green health and 1/4 is more than enough to keep enemies in the 400 point range busy for quite a while. And also, add another category for them. "Attracting bowfire that does not much damage: *****". Most archers can't land a wound on these guys, despite the opponent's vain efforts. 5 power isn't going to hit much on 4 toughness. The Giant War Elephant is nice on the charge, but probably not that amazing. (maybe its just the annoying HE 3 skill) I rarely do more than 3 damage on the HE that I'm facing, whenever I bring along this fellow.
I'm trying to remember why I only gave them ** for tanking.  I was probably thinking in terms of use.  Surely the Elephant is an outstanding tank, but you really don't want to use him that way.  You want him to charge into as many guys as you can to preach the gospel of death and flatness!  So if I wanted to put a unit someplace simply for tanking, I'd use Worthy instead and save the 9 million points.  But still, I'm going to upgrade them to ***.  I mean, they are easily **** but I don't want to use them as a 523 point tank.

Note: The *s all mean rating. I hope you don't think I'm throwing swear words around everywhere.  :P
* you and the * you rode in on ;)

And if you feel like posting your own ratings here. go right ahead.  I was the first to post them, but that doesn't make me the authority or anything.  Just the quickest to jump on the boat!  My opinion is not any greater than anybody else and there are plenty of good Umenzi players here.  From their posts I feel Ajax and Kevin are good.  Nikko is probably good at anything he plays.  

EDIT:  LazyJ posted his reply before mien went up (had to take breaks because I'm at work) and said pretty much what I said about the Elephant's tanking.  Beat me to the punch!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 09:46:11 AM by RushAss »
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Niko White

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 11:06:47 AM »

I actually think you were right with the elephant tanking at **.  It gets a bit complicated with huge men, but you absolutely have to correlate roles with points, especially tanking.  Battle Squads are a great example: compare the HEBS to the High Elf Swordsmen.  If you don't count points value, the Swordsmen are a strictly better tank: exact same stat line with a bunch more health.  But it'd be crazy to say the Swordsmen are a better tank than the HEBS; the fact that they hold ground so well for so few points is what makes those guys.

gornhorror

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2009, 04:36:48 PM »
Yeah, what's up with that?  I think the high elf battlesquads are underpriced. 187 is somewhat low for what they can do.  The defense is great, and the 6 in the 6/5 attack is good enough to balance out the limited(3) attack dice.   The fact that many people put a bunch of them in their HE armies is a testament as to their effectiveness.  Not to mention that the HE command cards are particularly strong. Anyways, can't wait to see you guys from Your Move Games at Council of 5 Nations in October if you guys are planning to make a showing.  I hope you are.   ;D
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Niko White

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2009, 05:00:34 PM »
Yeah, what's up with that?  I think the high elf battlesquads are underpriced. 187 is somewhat low for what they can do.  The defense is great, and the 6 in the 6/5 attack is good enough to balance out the limited(3) attack dice.   The fact that many people put a bunch of them in their HE armies is a testament as to their effectiveness.  Not to mention that the HE command cards are particularly strong. Anyways, can't wait to see you guys from Your Move Games at Council of 5 Nations in October if you guys are planning to make a showing.  I hope you are.   ;D

I'll make it if I can.  My parents live right over the NY/MA border in Williamstown MA so it is a pretty easy trip for me; almost did this year but something came up.

As for the Battle Squads, I think they're fine.  They cost twice as much as Zombies, for example, and are mostly better but have a similar role of the guy who takes forever to die but never does much damage.

I think the big deal is that a) the High Elves really benefit from a good tank unit because of the way the rest of the faction works and b) specialist units are very good in Battleground because they tend to be "virtually" undercosted.  For example, if you doubled the health on Bowriders, they'd cost a boatload more points, and would in some ways be "better" because it'd be less risky to get them stuck in, but they so often finish games without taking much damage that they'd be a far worse unit overall.  Ditto Battle Squads: most factions have units that are good at tanking, but also pay for some significant ability to do damage, like Orc and Dwarf line units.  As a result, they're significantly harder to use right than a Battle Squad because they're not that much more likely to survive, and while their increased attack stats mean they'll cut through chumps faster, they still often won't cut through cheaper tank units in time to matter.

That isn't to say that those units aren't good; having that kind of tactical flexibility can be really great.  But it does mean that they are going to justify their full cost way less frequently than units that really only do one thing.

(The balance, of course, is that they are way more likely to surprise you than a Battle Squad.  If you've got a HEBS, you have to have a really odd game state for it to go off-role.  Even something like The Possessed is going to last a few rounds against a HEBS.  An Orc Swordsman, on the other hand, while someone you usually get as a line unit, can cut through and make opportunities if presented with a mismatch in ways that the HEBS can't.)

ETA: That isn't to say I'm convinced that High Elves are perfectly balanced, or that HEBS aren't a bit too good for that matter.  But one difficulty is that part of what makes them so good is that they are in a faction that needs them so much, and one that can overcome their primary disadvantage (few dice) so easily with unique command cards and even to a certain extent with Precision.  My guess is if you put an identical unit into, say, the Undead, it'd see very little play because they don't have that kind of tanking shortage.  That said, it is also one of the most specialized cheap units in the game, which means it is potentially very powerful because it will so reliably justify its full cost.  There's a sort of interesting philosophical question about how often extremely specialized units like that should exist given that some factions basically don't get them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 05:03:40 PM by Niko White »

Quelmotz

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2009, 09:46:46 PM »
What I meant, rush, was that chosen should get ***** overall... ::)  :P

I was just playing a game earlier on (not concluded yet so no session report - for now anyway), and my freaking Elephant DIED to some stupid scorpions and battlemages. My opponent was using a HE stand N shoot army, and the Elephant was objectived by 2 scorpions and a battlemage (though my opponent was using the mages to draw command cards mostly). It managed a charge into a battlesquad, but it was already in the yellow and only dealt out 4 damage (2 from the elephant - 1 from karma and 1 more from javelins).  ::) Then it got shot into the red and STILL managed to pass its rout check. I was hoping for it to fail it so my berserkers (who were backing it up) could rush in and smash that pesky battlesquad up. The next turn, the battlesquad hit 1 on them, and they routed  ::).
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gull2112

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2009, 05:44:22 PM »
Quote
preach the gospel of death and flatness!

Marcus, you're a funny man. ;D
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Quelmotz

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2009, 08:58:36 PM »
Quote
preach the gospel of death and flatness!

Marcus, you're a funny man. ;D

Hey, you mean I'm not?  :P
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gull2112

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2009, 07:33:33 AM »
Quote
Quote from: gull2112 on Yesterday at 06:44:22 PM
Quote
preach the gospel of death and flatness!

Marcus, you're a funny man.


Hey, you mean I'm not? 

Well, you're a kiwi, so you got that going for you. Not everyone has that edge.
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Quelmotz

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2009, 09:32:30 PM »
Quote
Quote from: gull2112 on Yesterday at 06:44:22 PM
Quote
preach the gospel of death and flatness!

Marcus, you're a funny man.


Hey, you mean I'm not? 

Well, you're a kiwi, so you got that going for you. Not everyone has that edge.

  :o
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RushAss

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2009, 08:44:48 AM »
I'm totally at a loss with all this talk of Kiwis  ???

I made a post concerning a build that did not depend upon spell casters for leadership in the 2000 point army build thread here:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,446.90.html

It worked out OK in my playtest, but the dice where in the Umenzi's favor and the game should have been much closer.  Anybody have any thoughts on constructing Umenzi armies without spell casters?  I think it's pretty doable.
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lazyj

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2009, 09:02:21 AM »
1x Chosen
2x Spearmen
1x Javelineers
1x Warriors
1x Worthy
2x Possessed
1x Giant Elephant
---
1991 points

The Elephant anchors one flank, the Worthy and Chosen are spaced among the remaining units to add their leadership.

I'd probably screen the Leadership units with the Possessed so they don't get shot up too badly before they engage. The name of the game is to ensure the Elephant breaks his opponent on the flank and starts rolling things up (or to quote Rush: "preach the gospel of death and flatness"). Your units sit tight along the rest of the line, perhaps even winning some of their fights outright (I'm looking at you Chosen).

Could be fun - but then again, the Umenzi spells are SO much fun, that I can't see myself completely removing them as an option. Deathcurse FTW!!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 04:14:31 PM by lazyj »

gull2112

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2009, 02:31:46 PM »
Well, Lazyj, you could bring them and I'll do the last stand scenario with the dwarves.
My dwarf build looks like this:
3 Dwarven Militia
2 Dwarven Spearmen
1 Dwarven Balista
1 Longbeards
1697 points (the scenario allows for a 1700 point build for the defender)

The game ends when the defender is wiped out or surrenders or when all the attackers exit off the defender's board edge. Victory points are awarded for damaged/eliminated attacking units. I can spend command actions to buy extra victory points. This makes Dwarves with the rune of Uruz a good choice as it doesn't require constant recasting or fiddling like for many army abilities (ex. the orc lash must be done every turn).

So if you're a go we can do it. Even if you want the Lizedmen to try and ply their toothy trade on the stalwarts of Runegard.

Marcus, feel free to jump in with any suggestions, as I have never played the dwarves before. James has never run the Lizardmen either, but it is not like they require subtlety. The Dwarves don't really require subtlety so much either, except I am trying to face a superior foe, and because this way if I win james can claim I had an unfair advantage through your counsel. ;D


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RushAss

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Re: Umenzi units and tactics
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2009, 03:52:48 PM »
Marcus, feel free to jump in with any suggestions, as I have never played the dwarves before. James has never run the Lizardmen either, but it is not like they require subtlety. The Dwarves don't really require subtlety so much either, except I am trying to face a superior foe, and because this way if I win james can claim I had an unfair advantage through your counsel. ;D
I'll take a look at the scenario and post something for you later on in the Dwarves thread.  Deal?

And LazyJ, you mention Worthy in your build but I don't see them in the army list.  Did you mean Worthy, but typed Warriors?
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