Author Topic: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units  (Read 23670 times)

lazyj

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Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« on: March 10, 2009, 03:43:47 PM »
Hawk Tactics and Units Thread
Note: this review has been updated to include thoughts on dealing with the recent development of Skirmishers in the Historical factions. Skirmishers are a significant development in game play and cause a few units to be appraised differently.

“I'll play the Hawks against anyone, anytime, anywhere.” –Chad_YMG

No one seems to give the Men of Hawkshold much love. They’re one of the early factions, they don’t have huge scary things or sweet new rules so I guess people are bored with them? What they are is solid, dependable, and versatile. They are my favorite faction so far, and I wanted to get some info available for new players who might overlook them. Niko (formerly known as Ultiville) usually posts these tactics lists but I am impatient. So I’ll give it a try using his format. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll earn a sticky.

I'll list each unit and give a number of stars to each general role I think one might try to use it in, from 1-5.  If I don't list a given role it means I think it can't do that, but I could always be wrong or forgetful, so please respond and post your own if you like! There are also many people here who have played far more often than I have, so please give your feedback.

If you have a post you've made in another thread that you think fits in this one, feel free to post it; I think it would make some sense to have everything in one place.

General guideline to what the stars mean:

*:  It looks like this unit might be able to do this, but I've found that this is a trap.
**:  In select cases, the unit might not completely embarrass you trying to play this role.
***:  The unit plays the role competently.  Generally it won't work miracles, but it justifies its points in most games.
****:  The unit is excellent at that role.  I'll try to "upgrade" other units in that role to this one if I can.
*****:  Centaurs.

Stars are points-adjusted, so you'll often see a unit that's better on the table getting fewer stars at a role, because it isn't enough better to make the points worth it in my opinion.

Roles:

Tank: This is a unit you use to soak up hits and last long enough for relief to arrive, without planning on it doing significant damage.
Light Infantry:  This is a unit that you plan to have last just long enough to get help, and maybe do a bit of damage while it's at it.  It won't stand up to a real damage unit, but it will prevent opposing tanks from embarrassing you by pinching in.  I think of this as the "offensive" version of the tank unit.
Heavy Infantry:  The game's generalist units.  They have good attack and defense stats, but neither is enough of a standout that they aren't capable of both dealing and taking some damage.  These are the non-specialist guys who you plan to use to cover contingencies and things like that.
Light Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in, either against weak units or into a pinch.  This plan involves breaking them on the first turn because the unit will be in trouble if you don't.
Heavy Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in and beat people up on the charge turn, but unlike Light Damage, you're trusting them to last a few turns if things go wrong.
Fire Support:  This is a unit you use to add fire where it is needed.  You don't count on them to get much done on their own, but combined with a reasonable infantry unit or other fire support, they can create holes in the opposing line and get things going.
Artillery:  The big guns.  These units add fire support, but the fire is meaningful enough that you are hoping they'll do big damage over the course of the game, rather than serving a dedicated support role.
Other:  Sometimes I'll put in another category, like "Centaurs" or "Bowriders" and explain it in the comments.

I'll also give every unit an overall score indicating how often I tend to play it.

Hawk Unit Review

Peasants
Disposable Fodder: *****
Anything else: *
Overall: ***

Ah the Peasant. Useless in almost every combat situation, he is without a doubt one of the most important units the Hawks have. Why? Cost! At a mere 70 points he is the cheapest Core unit in the game. Hawk non-Core units are so worthwhile that sometimes you just want to get the Core restriction out of the way and fill your army up with the sweet stuff. Peasants are perfect for that. They also do quite well to give you that extra unit or two to start pinching. Don’t expect them to do anything except provide pinching bonuses offensively, as most standard line units will treat these guys like a 2 turn speedbump. But don’t forget these guys are Courage 13 after a Command Action! Sometimes what you want is a 2 turn speedbump, and that’s what they’ll give you. There are several posts around the forums about some creative ways to use them as disposable fodder – write them off as dead before the game starts and see how much annoyance they can cause your opponent in the meantime.

UPDATE: Though skirmishers could very well carve these guys into little bits, that's not really that bad of an outcome. Much better to have their skirmishers ignoring your useful line units and popping these weenies. Remember, the Peasant is a doomed unit from the beginning - your goal is to stretch him out into a threat and annoyance far greater than he's worth.

Militia
Light Infantry: **
Light Damage: ***
Overall: **

I keep trying to fit these guys in, but they cost just enough so that my expectations come up short of their performance. While it is true that they are better than Peasants in a fight they aren’t that much better. A 4 Offensive skill really hurts as you’ll be hitting on 2’s or less against most line troops right off the bat. If you have extra points lying around after upgrading other things, by all means upgrade one of your Peasant units. Just don’t expect these guys to win you the game.

Scouts
Light Damage: **
Being really fast: ***
Anti-Skirmisher: ****
Overall: ** /*

In rare games, you can use these guys like a Fast Peasant unit, running around the Battlefield and being a pain in the butt. But at twice the cost of Peasants and with no Core fulfillment, they’re usually one of the first things to get cut out of my list. Occasionally you might want to take advantage of their 7” movement (matched only by Antonians, the Wolf Pack and Wolf Riders currently) for specific objectives. But other unit abilities tend to make their 7” movers faster in practice. Even the slightly slower High Elves with their Maneuver Mastery can run these guys ragged. I have heard of many players who enjoy leading dumb colossal things (like the T-Rex) around with Scouts. But their lack of staying power means they should never be in a one-on-one fight unless they are targeting isolated Bow or routing units.

UPDATE: Yes they'll get plowed under against most things, but you can't beat the effect Scouts will have on enemy skirmishers. Most skirmishing units will hit these guys on 1's with only a handful of dice, and the Scouts in return will cause two damage and prevent the auto-rally for a whopping 7" in front of them. Combine the excellent Hawk ranged units with these guys to clear the Skirmishers out and you'll punch through those Historical factions in no time. As a bonus they're a good matchup for the Historical cavalry because of their superior courage. Added a line specialty and a half star bump to their overall usefulness.

Bowmen
Fire Support: ***
Overall: ***

Nothing special here, just your basic archers: they sit behind your line and shoot bad guys. They don’t get four stars at it because costs a bit more than you might find elsewhere, but not so much that you can’t feel comfortable with a pair in your 1500 point army. They like buddies while they shoot, so get at least two if you’re going to get any. Also note that with the Army Ability these guys have ridiculous Courage for their cost, so don’t hesitate to circle up if you need one of them to sacrifice himself on the incoming bad guys for a turn or two.

Pikemen
Heavy Infantry: **
Making Opponent nervous: ***
Getting Shot by the enemy: ****
Overall: **

I want to like these guys. Seven dice is cool. Big time combat bonuses against the game’s scariest creatures are cool. Re-enacting Braveheart against the enemy’s heavy cavalry is very cool. But these guys only move 2.5” (which isn’t terrible but isn’t good), and they are completely vulnerable to enemy range attacks. A tip for the Stand and Shoot inclined: save your Blue Command Cards for these guys, because they are going to take hits in a hurry. True, if you can get the positioning right you can make your opponent nervous about all those dice with pluses that you will throw at their most expensive units. But considering the much better Spearmen are just 30 points more, you should think long and hard about what you’ll do with these guys if your opponent shows up with no Cavalry or Large/Colossal units and a lot of archers instead.

UPDATE: Skirmishers are another threat here, but only the "special" ones. Most regular skirmishers only have a power of 4, meaning the Pikes will hold up better than you'd think at first because of their decent toughness.

Swordsmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: *** /*
Heavy Damage: ***
Overall: *** /*

Solid. Almost as good as their Spear brothers, these guys will give you a fine option anywhere along your line. Five green boxes and an effective Courage of 15 means that you should be able to survive a pounding that ought to send you packing, and still be ready to move in on the pinch when you’re done.

Spearmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: ****
Heavy Damage: ***
Overall: ****

The backbone of any Hawk line. You could field an all-spear army and not do too badly. Circle the Courage and they just won’t break for anything. Five green hits means they’ll be slinging six dice long after your average line unit is down to four or less. If you don’t have any in your army you’d better be sure of what you’re doing. And you’re probably still making a mistake. They’re a tad pricey, but that’s because they’re good. When in doubt, get them.

Light Cavalry
Light Damage: ****
Heavy Damage: *
Chasing other cavalry: * /*
Chasing skirmishers: *
Overall: ***

Hawks love their horses, it’s true. In this case you have a unit capable of covering some ground and doing damage once they reach their target. For the points, they do a fantastic amount of damage when they charge, and their nice defensive bonus should reduce the retaliation, leaving the unit free to charge into the next unit. If you can pull it off, Light Cavalry running rampant through the rear areas of the opponent’s lines will usually blow through several weaker enemy units before it is brought down. Just don’t assume that they are capable of standing up to prolonged fights. Their low damage threshold means that one or two decent line units will send them packing in a stand up slugging match. Also don’t think they’re good enough on their own to handle Antonians or Bowriders or the like – they’re not. Only moving 6” exposes them somewhat to ranged attacks and faster Cavalry shenanigans. Instead, put these guys on the flanks and blow through weaker infantry units. Get into the rear areas then hit and run.

UPDATE: True, these guys will do the job against enemy skirmishers. But if you send 250 points out to chase 70 points you are not doing yourself any favors. If you're going to prowl around for enemy Historical units, it's much better to hunt down the Cavalry, which is typically much weaker than the Hawk horsemen.

Great Swordsmen
Heavy Damage: ****
Heavy Infantry: **
Tank: *
Overall: *** /*

Hurray for 6/6! I love units that can give me huge offensive stats before I pull Command Cards, and the Great Swords do that quite well. Of course they are slow, but what do I care? Either cap your entire line movement (which works amazing against people who forgot to bring their arrows) or get creative. Bring them up on a weaker flank, or send them into the clear terrain while the rest of the army goes through it so you come back together in time. Or use Peasants to tie down a flank as cheap fodder until you get there. Once these guys engage, you’ll forgive them their faults. Note that they shouldn’t be your “contingency” plan units because their speed means they just can’t respond well. And note too that their decent toughness doesn’t do jack against most enemy large / colossal units, so pick your targets wisely. Remember, you aren’t paying for these guys to hold their own against an enemy, you’re paying for them to attack and break an enemy on their own. Pick your fights.

Heavy Infantry
Tank: *****
Er…Heavy Infantry: ***
Overall: *** /*

Hello Mr Stick-in-the-mud. Yes it’s true, these guys only move 2.5” inches and the pain and shame of this will haunt them to the end of their days. But all they ask of you is to line up face to face with the most powerful enemy unit and then forget about them the rest of the battle. Unless they’re pinched they’re just not going anywhere. Huge health (including the awesome Hawk standard five green hits) and high defensive stats combine with above average or excellent Courage (depending on the Army Ability) to give you an immovable rock in your line. Seriously, just put them down where you don’t want the enemy to break through – the very definition of Tank. They don’t quite shine as brightly in your regular Heavy Infantry role however, due to the lack of mobility. And they are pricey, so you have to be sure that they don’t get outnumbered and pinched. But if you can cope with the speed problem, you’ve got a tremendous unit.

UPDATE: I wouldn't be worried about skirmishers against either the Heavy Infantry or the Greatswords - they're just too tough. Just be mindful of the skirmishers pinching and continue on with your gameplan, laughing whenever he decides to waste his ranged attack on your powerful armor.

Longbowmen
Fire Support: **
Artillery: ****
Shooting at skirmishers: *
Overall: ****

One of my favorite units. Say what you want about the other factions, no one yet has come up with a better shooter than the Hawk Longbows. You want Range? How about tied for best in the game (and with no random attack dice). You want Skill and Power? 6/6 baby, on par or better than the other artillery units in other factions and with no LOS or Engaged restrictions. Counter-battery fire? Not many artillery units can go toe to toe with the Longbows and come out ahead thanks to their happy high courage. A pair of Longbows will kill or drive off the majority of line unit types within a couple of turns. They’ll bomb other bowmen back to the stone-age. They can do well at Fire Support if they have to, but at these premium prices you’re looking to your damage while the opponent is safely out of range, and with the stellar Spearmen and Heavy Infantry you don’t have to worry much about the opponent breaking through. Just the threat of Longbows in a Stand and Shoot army should make your opponent change his whole strategy before the battle begins – even if you don’t take them, that threat should give you the initiative. Just remember, they are nothing but an expensive speed bump if your enemy gets through your lines so keep them protected.

UPDATE: While it can be gratifying to wipe out enemy skirmishers in one volley, for this investment you usually need to find better targets. If possible, let your cavalry clear the skirmishers while you punch through the line guys that are following. Again, always remember the cost discrepancy. Just because you CAN kill skirmishers with these guys doesn't mean it's the right move.

Knights
Heavy Damage: ***
Heavy Cavalry: ****
Heavy Infantry: *
Overall: ****

I love the knights. I can’t help it, I get all excited when they charge and I picture them lowering their lances in slow motion as the ride down the poor fools in front of them. Are they expensive? You bet your sweet lance they are. Are they fragile for the points? You could certainly make that argument, knave. Are they the best Heavy Cavalry in the game so far, stat-wise? Probably not. But they just fit so well in with what the Hawks do, that I can’t help but love them. And there is nothing funnier than rolling six dice at 6/8 on an enemy line unit and adding an impact hit, breaking the unit, and destroying it on the free attacks without taking a single point of damage in return. One thing to note is that they are very expensive. So in certain Kingdoms scenarios that base victory conditions on unit costs they could do amazing damage and still cost you Victory Points if they go down. So be wise on how you use them. I figure I’m going to get 2, maybe 3 charges out of them where I’ll really be able to bring the pain, so I try to make them count. They do not do well in “even” fights against similar-costed opponents. No no – you want them finding the weak spots and bursting through. You want to maintain a one charge, one kill mentality.



Discuss Hawks here! I am very keen to hear the more experienced Battleground generals weigh in.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 01:46:38 PM by lazyj »

Asmoridin

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 04:22:20 PM »
I thought this was a pretty solid synopsis of the different Hawk units.  I've only played them twice (back when the game first came out and some time after that), but they were solid both times.  Courage really makes them effective at holding enemies in place, and they have some VERY good units for hammering opponent's to shreds.

This was a good read though, makes me want to run them more =).

gornhorror

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 08:01:59 PM »
Well, let me tell ya.  I'm a believer in the Hawks.  The first reason why I like to play them is that you are virtually guaranteed to have more units than your opponent.  When you line up your army it can be a little intimidating to your opponent.  Sure, peasant mobs are weak, but when you can maneuver them to attain a pinch they become more effective.  Also, I actually think that  militia are pretty good for 115 points.  The 2/1 toughness is ok & the stat-bar is quite impressive for the points.  NEVER underestimate the power of courage.  Never forget to assign it to you troops in the BEGINNING of the game instead of gathering up the command cards.  NOT ROUTING is key to victory for any army & the hawks can prevent it the best, save the Undead.  I've been playing the hawks a lot lately & they are a winner if played correctly.  Now, just this past weekend I played a big 4000 point army against 2 2000 point armies & I bit the bullet & put some Knights in there.  Well, I'm a believer in them now, & 413 points doesn't seem that expensive for what they can do.  They hit like a freight train & their toughness is pretty damn good on the the charge turn @ 3/3.  I'm offensive minded when I play & I will always pick the great swordsmen over the heavy infantry.  They cost less than the heavy infantry but have a chance to actually kill the opposing force with the 6/6 offensive stats.  I can't get over the 2.5" move tho.  They should be a 3.5 like every body else.  The Hawks aren't sexy, but who needs sexy in a fight.  I just want to be last man standing.  I'll tell you what is sexy in the hawks decks, some of the command cards.  The Plan.....need I say more? :o
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Kevin

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 09:50:49 PM »
I took the hawks vs. lizardmen (2000 points).  A brief battle report is in "scenario reports."  It seems to me that the best Hawk units are the longbowmen.  And once you take a pair of those, the rest of your army really serve as meat shields for them. 

I know that knights have potential, but they really just don't seem to fit in the Hawk strategy of dig in and bombard.  Wish there was a scenario where I could see using them effectively. (But that would mean giving up my longbowmen, yes?  If my army is rushing in that makes for many fewer arrow volleys, to the point where they're not worth it.)
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Niko White

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 11:32:56 PM »

I am willing to sticky this.  Well done.

I disagree with you about a few of the units, but not in major ways -- I think you've got it pegged.  I'm not a huge believer in Heavy Infantry (I find that Spearmen usually do well enough in that role cheaper, and I like Greatswords way more of the foot knights) but clearly you've got a lot of Hawk experience so I'm not overall sure I'm right in all these cases anyway.

Kevin: You're right that Knights don't lend themselves well to a dual longbow Stand and Shoot army.  That army can be quite savage, but it can also be very risky against certain kinds of opponents, High Elves and Umenzi especially.  Stand and Shoot is something you have to commit to strongly in army building, so you often lose a lot of flexibility; Knight and/or single Longbow (or neither) builds tend to be a lot more flexible, which can be important if you don't know the opponent or terrain or scenarios might be involved.

Knights especially are very powerful against Umenzi units and guys you have to kill rather than relying on breaking, like Undead.  The Umenzi hex + faith armor (or heal) combo basically neuters longbows, whereas a Knight charge will put down most of their line units in 1-2 turns.  Meanwhile they're better against zombies and other undead chump blockers because there are so many of them that being able to fight in both player's turns and having the brutal charge means you'll kill them fast enough to matter, which Longbows often won't.

Kevin

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 08:03:19 AM »
Niko, it sounds like in order to participate fully in a tactical discussion I'll have to purchase more factions. -- Nicely done.   ;)
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

lazyj

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 09:01:40 AM »
Yay for sticky!  :)

I remain very open to editing my rankings, especially on the 2.5" moving units (dismounted knights). While I feel like they have a definite role in the army, they are certainly not "auto-includes" like Spears! I feel they shine brighter when you are dealing with scenarios out of Kingdoms rather than just lining up across an open field. Give them a role, don't make them general purpose.

In my humble opinion, you aren't usually going to combine Knights and Longbows in an army under 2000 points. There are certainly ways to do so and some people may do it more effectively than me. I just find that Battleground as a game system rewards a total commitment to a strategy - and by combining Heavy Cavalry and Heavy Artillery in a game you are usually trying to meld strategies. Certainly not a guarantee for losing, but it will often make things more difficult for you against a dedicated opponent.

Militia... I feel again that if you start with Militia you are trying to meld strategies. If you just need cheap cores, get Peasants. If you need a line unit get Swordsmen. If you have extra points, I can see upgrading Peasants to Militia (or downgrading Swordsmen to gain points). But I would not build my army around them.

The Courage bonus as an army ability definitely rocks the house. One of the best army abilities ever if you ask me.

lazyj

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 10:08:54 AM »
I took the hawks vs. lizardmen (2000 points).  A brief battle report is in "scenario reports."  It seems to me that the best Hawk units are the longbowmen.  And once you take a pair of those, the rest of your army really serve as meat shields for them. 

I don't deny that Longbows will rock your socks most of the time. And a pair of them in a Stand and Shoot strategy (with Spears as "Meatshields") is quite strong. But if you always take this build I think you'll find your opponent will out-fox you. Andrew's "uber-build" Undead with Giant Catapults will probably give it a good beating. 700 points is a lot to invest in something that only fights on your turn. And the new shooting rules just around the corner will substantially weaken this strategy as well.

Point for Point, I think Hawk Spearmen are their best unit.

I know that knights have potential, but they really just don't seem to fit in the Hawk strategy of dig in and bombard.  Wish there was a scenario where I could see using them effectively. (But that would mean giving up my longbowmen, yes?  If my army is rushing in that makes for many fewer arrow volleys, to the point where they're not worth it.)

Only *one* of the Hawk strategies is dig in and bombard. Hawks are one of the most versatile factions in the game - almost any strategy can be viable with their units, and that's not even talking Mercenaries. As an extreme example, you could cause some serious damage and maybe even win running an all-Peasant Core group and then nothing but Cavalry.

Again I tout the amazing-ness that is kingdoms here: in your open field kill everybody standard game of BG:FW, it makes a lot of sense to stay put and shoot the pants off bad guys before they get to you (so Longbows are king). But in the many variations of battles provided by Kingdoms you have to deal with a different reality. Terrain and victory conditions might dictate you need to take the fight to the enemy. And in those situations, Hawks give you versatile options for bringing the pain.

Kevin

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 01:41:54 PM »
Quote
Again I tout the amazing-ness that is kingdoms here: in your open field kill everybody standard game of BG:FW, it makes a lot of sense to stay put and shoot the pants off bad guys before they get to you (so Longbows are king). But in the many variations of battles provided by Kingdoms you have to deal with a different reality...

Fine, you sold me.  I'll pick up Kingdoms, and the terrain pack while I'm at it...
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

gull2112

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2009, 08:35:44 PM »
Longbow stand and shoot affairs are the Hawkish gambit that gives me the most grief, but the way that works best to counter that is to get fast things that can cover ground backed up by something else. I like to put a unit of Trolls amidst a swarm of crazed goblins, all moviing at 5" and back them up with a solid row of swordsmen. The longbows chomp the trolls and the rear line is screened by the CG's. Swordsmen won't take out a reasonably strong line very often, but that is rarely what awaits them. Usually all there is points for is some militia or mobs with a couple of spearmen (who are busy cleaning troll goo off of their spears ;)).

Does this work everytime? No, and the game would be broken if it did, but you can make the longbowmen sweat, and that's a good thing. ;)
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Quelmotz

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 02:59:21 AM »

I am willing to sticky this.  Well done.

I disagree with you about a few of the units, but not in major ways -- I think you've got it pegged.  I'm not a huge believer in Heavy Infantry (I find that Spearmen usually do well enough in that role cheaper, and I like Greatswords way more of the foot knights) but clearly you've got a lot of Hawk experience so I'm not overall sure I'm right in all these cases anyway.

Kevin: You're right that Knights don't lend themselves well to a dual longbow Stand and Shoot army.  That army can be quite savage, but it can also be very risky against certain kinds of opponents, High Elves and Umenzi especially.  Stand and Shoot is something you have to commit to strongly in army building, so you often lose a lot of flexibility; Knight and/or single Longbow (or neither) builds tend to be a lot more flexible, which can be important if you don't know the opponent or terrain or scenarios might be involved.

Knights especially are very powerful against Umenzi units and guys you have to kill rather than relying on breaking, like Undead.  The Umenzi hex + faith armor (or heal) combo basically neuters longbows, whereas a Knight charge will put down most of their line units in 1-2 turns.  Meanwhile they're better against zombies and other undead chump blockers because there are so many of them that being able to fight in both player's turns and having the brutal charge means you'll kill them fast enough to matter, which Longbows often won't.

I disagree about knights being powerful against the umenzi part (sort of anyway). I was playing the umenzi against the high elves and the high elf knight (similar to the hawk knight) charged into my spearmen that had moved in front of him and was on hold. The knight took 3 damage and returned with only 1 or 2 damage. The pinching initiate dealt out another 2 damage and sent the knights running for their lives. The free attacks killed the knights.

I am not very sure about the credibility of this due to the high elf knight being slightly weaker than the hawk knight and also because my opponent wasn't very experienced (I am not very experienced also but at least I know knights charge into spearmen=death of knights).
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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 09:19:31 AM »
Did the HE Knight have crappy dice or something on his charge turn?  With no cards being played, HE Knights should average 5 damage on their charge turn vs. Umenzi Spearmen.  Now getting a holding Spearmen unit in front of a cavalry unit is always a good thing for you.  Not to mention getting the pinch.  That would make any cavalry unit unhappy!  Perhaps your opponent didn't realize he could have direct controlled that sucker and used maneuver mastery to weasel his way out of that trap?

gornhorror and I where discussing the similarity between the HE Knights and MoH Knights just yesterday.  They are almost the same unit, yet the HE Knights cost over 30 points less.  We couldn't figure out why that was.  Any thoughts on that?
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boltana

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 10:22:59 AM »
Might be the MM and/or the difference in cost of Bravery vs Percision.

lazyj

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 01:24:03 PM »
I am not very sure about the credibility of this due to the high elf knight being slightly weaker than the hawk knight and also because my opponent wasn't very experienced (I am not very experienced also but at least I know knights charge into spearmen=death of knights).

Well first of all, those pansy HE Knights are nothing compared to the superior Hawk deathriders!  :D

But I don't agree with your quote in general. While you don't usually want to send your Knights into things like spears, if you have a good Blue Command card and the situation calls for it, there are worse things to do. Hawk Knights can generally send the opposing spears packing, though they will take some damage and be at limited effectiveness afterwards. Charging holding Spears and then getting pinched however, is a recipe for doom.

But dang, those dice must have abandoned the High Elves. Cause wussy Umenzi at a 2/1 should have taken an absolute beating on that charge. 6 dice + impact hit at power 8? Even if the Spears hit back at (6)6/7 the Knights defense of 4/2 should have limited the damage. The point Niko was making I think was that Umenzi in leadership range don't break and run generally - you have to grind them down. Heavy hitting Cavalry that blows them apart in a turn or two is the best pure tool for doing that.

I think the two key differences between HE Knights and Hawk Knights is the courage and the toughness. Circle the Hawk courage and they go to 16 - almost never breaking. Hawk Knights have Toughness 3 - meaning even on the charge turn the holding spears only wound on 4's and on following turns only on 2's. Far better than 5's and 3's.

@Rush, I think the point costs are cheaper because to take expensive heavy cav in HE you are really giving up too much in the other units. If the Knights were pricier, my assumption is that they would never hit the table.

Kevin

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Re: Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 04:52:59 PM »
Cavalry in general give me the willies because they're so dicey.  It's pretty much a given that whoever you charge gets knocked into the yellow (possibly the red), but not destroyed.  If they blow the subsequent rout check, you almost certainly popped 'em in a single round, and can do it again next round.  (And if someone hits you and you're angled right they take a huge beating on the way in and might die too.)

On the other hand, if the opponent holds, your very expensive unit starts trading pain with a much cheaper unit, and is just begging to get pinched if there's someone else nearby. (Since, as said, your unit is very expensive, so you probably have some weak units, or nothing at all, somewhere else.)

Feels to me like too much depends on whether the unit you charge runs or not on that first round.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill