Author Topic: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics  (Read 10769 times)

ajax98

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Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« on: February 21, 2009, 11:20:47 PM »
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Monsters and Mercenaries Units and Tactics

Here we go again.  Thread and post intro as ruthlessly cribbed from my High Elf thread:

"I'll list each Monsters and Mercenaries unit and give a number of stars to each general role I think one might try to use it in, from 1-5.  If I don't list a given role it means I think it can't do that, but I could always be wrong or forgetful, so please respond and post your own if you like!

We can also use this thread for Monsters and Mercenaries tactics; I might put some of mine up later but they have shown up in some other places so I might also be lazy.  It'll be a surprise.

If you have a post you've made in another thread that you think fits in this one, feel free to post it; I think it would make some sense to have everything in one place.

General guideline to what the stars mean:

*:  It looks like this unit might be able to do this, but I've found that this is a trap.
**:  In select cases, the unit might not completely embarrass you trying to play this role.
***:  The unit plays the role competently.  Generally it won't work miracles, but it justifies its points in most games.
****:  The unit is excellent at that role.  I'll try to "upgrade" other units in that role to this one if I can.
*****:  Centaurs.

Stars are points-adjusted, so you'll often see a unit that's better on the table getting fewer stars at a role, because it isn't enough better to make the points worth it in my opinion.

Roles:

Tank: This is a unit you use to soak up hits and last long enough for relief to arrive, without planning on it doing significant damage.
Light Infantry:  This is a unit that you plan to have last just long enough to get help, and maybe do a bit of damage while it's at it.  It won't stand up to a real damage unit, but it will prevent opposing tanks from embarrassing you by pinching in.  I think of this as the "offensive" version of the tank unit.
Heavy Infantry:  The game's generalist units.  They have good attack and defense stats, but neither is enough of a standout that they aren't capable of both dealing and taking some damage.  These are the non-specialist guys who you plan to use to cover contingencies and things like that.
Light Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in, either against weak units or into a pinch.  This plan involves breaking them on the first turn because the unit will be in trouble if you don't.
Heavy Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in and beat people up on the charge turn, but unlike Light Damage, you're trusting them to last a few turns if things go wrong.
Fire Support:  This is a unit you use to add fire where it is needed.  You don't count on them to get much done on their own, but combined with a reasonable infantry unit or other fire support, they can create holes in the opposing line and get things going.
Artillery:  The big guns.  These units add fire support, but the fire is meaningful enough that you are hoping they'll do big damage over the course of the game, rather than serving a dedicated support role.
Other:  Sometimes I'll put in another category, like "Centaurs" or "Bowriders" and explain it in the comments.

I'll also give every unit an overall score indicating how often I tend to play it."

Monsters and Mercenaries Unit Review

Ancient Red Dragon
Heavy "Infantry": ****
Heavy Damage: ****
Draconic Rage: *****
Overall: *

The Ancient Red Dragon is a formidable and powerful unit.  It is virtually impossible to kill and has a powerful attack, making it quite good at a heavy infantry type role.  Even more importantly, it flies all over the place and breathes fire at the same time, making it a threat in ways that few other units in the game are -- it can split armies and force huge numbers of guys to chase it around just to stop it from absolutely wreaking havoc.  Unfortunately, it costs 900 points, and is badly overshadowed by the non-geriatric version.  In this case bigger isn't better, adding an extra 229 points of cost and making the guy a way larger target for artillery pieces in exchange for some stat increases you probably don't care about much.  The Ancient Red Dragon isn't a bad unit in an absolute sense, and if you take it out of a (easily understandable) love of giant dragons, then it certainly won't auto-lose you the game or anything.  But, sadly, it suffers greatly in comparison with the other dragon, and so as such I'd never suggest taking it for power reasons; the other dragon is just as good and far cheaper.

Earth Elemental
Tank: *****
Heavy Infantry: *
Awkwardness:  Embarrassed
Overall: **

This guy is functionally immortal.  With 1/4 defense, auto-pass courage, and Dwarven levels of health, he'll never die unless he's pinched or attacked by some disgustingly giant monster, and even then it will take a while.  The issues with him are twofold, though.  First, he's not a heavy infantry guy because he'll never hurt most people.  If you get lucky and he ends up against some sort of low defense skill high toughness beast like an Abomination or Trolls or something he will do some butchery, but even 2/3 guys are going to give him trouble due to his dire attack skill, and forget doing anything at all to Elven units or Hawk Heavy Infantry.  You also have to discard tons of cards to play any on him, meaning it is quite painful to compensate it up with an Accuracy or the like.  Second, and more troubling, is his abject mindlessness -- he's stuck on Close with a 5" move.  This means you can't really take him unless all of your infantry are Ogres, because he'll just run ahead like an idiot and get himself killed.  In the Ogres case he can be ok,  but honestly, I'd rather have another Ogre, which is cheaper and commandable.  If they ever come out with a predominantly 1/4 or 1/3 faction, this guy is your man.  Until then, I'd only use him in strange Hydra-based strategies where he needs to guard the big lizard's flank.

Elementalist
Artillery: ****
Light Infantry: *
Front-Line Artillery: **
Overall: ****

This is a unit that knows what it wants, and that is to cook fools from long range with nasty spells.  The Lightning attack is powerful and long range, and the insurance against command cards is quite nice.  With only two dice, you're rarely going to convert both, but at 7/7 you're (essentially) always likely to get one.  I think of it more as a one damage ping than a real attack.  The Fireball is also cool, Longbow attacks are very welcome.  Just remember that just because it has a lower range doesn't mean you always want to use it if you can.  The Lightning's ability to almost always do a damage without command cards can seriously mess with enemy trumps -- assuming you just need one damage to force a check or the like, go with the lightning and be sure to get it done.

You might think from her retinue's respectable stats that you can send the Elementalist in toe-to-toe like a Battle Squad, but this isn't really true; 2/2 defense is a world off from the 3/2 of the Battle Squad, she has essentially no health, and if you're engaged you can't cast those lovely spells.  She can, though, sometimes comfortably help fill out a melee line by threatening to pinch; her 2/2 defense means she won't crumple like most artillery units if they decide to hit her instead of whoever is in front of her.  Remember too that Ordered Retreat loves the Elementalist.  Nothing is funnier than the opponent getting your artillery in combat, forcing a check, and having it fall back a few inches to nuke them in the face.  High comedy!

This is also one of the units to remember for putting into other factions; the Elementalist is a highly respectable artillery unit that you can field in armies that lack any of their own, like Lizardmen or Umenzi.

Half Orc Spearmen
Heavy Infantry: **
Tank: ***
Spearmen: ***
Overall: ***

These guys are solid, dependable core spears.  Half Orc units are nice because they have that solid heavy infantry defense line at quite a nice cost.  The only reason they don't get more than three stars is that I find their courage very awkward.  Sure, it can be (effectively) 15, which is fantastic, but it is quite expensive in terms of command actions to get them there, and can also be expensive to keep them there.  Still, these are quite cheap for their strength, and so are a fine unit to bring.

Half Orc Swordsmen
Heavy Infantry: **
Tank: ***
Overall: ***

Much like the spears, these guys are fine, but not outstanding, the questionable base courage making them difficult to rely on without eating a lot of actions.  I don't consider them a great heavy infantry unit just because I want a bit better attack stats than 5/5 if I expect to make a breakthrough.

Healer Mages
Healing Dudes: ****
Overall: **

Yep, they sure heal some dudes.  These ladies are excellent if you need to shore up a defensive line.  If you're able to bring a bunch of medium to cheap dudes who are decent tanks but are worried about being savaged by powerful attackers, then they're a good choice.  They're also great against Lizard Men since they so love opponents who are in the yellow.  Finally, they can be a good choice if you have units that are powerful on the attack but somewhat fragile, like some of Ravenwood's dudes.  The issue with them, and the reason they only rate two stars, is that 200 points is a lot to pay for a unit that can't really ever fight.  If you have the right situation, these are a strong choice, but it isn't an especially common situation.  They're also better in other factions than in M&M, in my opinion: they have trouble healing large units, and your tank units are tough enough they probably don't need the help, while you want to be saving up points to bring giant monsters or artillery guys.

Hill Giant
Artillery: **
Heavy Infantry: ****
Overall: ****

This guy is a good man.  His stats compare pretty favorably to other 500 point guys like Ancients and Treants; he is harder to play cards on, but in return he moves faster, hits a bit harder, and doesn't have the "no yellow" issue of the Ancients.  Be wary of relying on his rock throwing, as it will eat up your command actions, but it is a nice option to have if you need to add weight of fire or force a key check.  He's a pretty simple guy, but quite effective and surprisingly speedy, which matters more often than you'd think.  Just remember to try to set his initial order as well as you can; his Stupid rule means you don't want to have to pay to change it too often.

Hydra
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: ****
Nom Nom Nom:   Shocked
Overall: **

The Hydra deals tons of damage, and rarely loses dice for yellow or red since he's usually regenerated at least once per level.  He'll sometimes even make a net gain.  If the opponent can't deal with him, he's going to eat their whole team one at a time.  Unfortunately, there are some crippling problems.  First, with 1 defense skill, colossal, and only three toughness, he's disgracefully easy to shoot given his cost.  Even normal foot archers will probably keep up with the regeneration, leaving the victims to do net damage, and artillery units will railgun him into submission in a hurry.  Second, he's locked in to 5" close, meaning it is very hard to cover his flanks; you basically need Ogres or things even more expensive, making it very hard to get a full line at 2000 or less.  Finally, the flimsy defenses mean that he's highly weak to pinches and will almost certainly die if one occurs.  It is worth remembering that he has six attack skill, making him sound good against Elves, but he has issues with the quality of archers Elven armies can often field.  He isn't without merit, but be very careful about bringing him, because he's a big risk to take.  I'd bring him primarily against newer players, who can't figure out how to deal, or if the scenario shortens the effective fighting area with terrain, making it easier to guard his flanks, and you don't think the opponent will bring artillery.

Ogres
Heavy Infantry: *****
Heavy Damage: **
Overall: *****

These guys might be the best heavy infantry in the game, in my opinion.  The 5" move and core status makes them, enabling Mercenary armies to keep up with Earth Elementals or Hydras if they want, but they're also just solid men -- as powerful as Tyrants but able to charge into a pinch with greater speed, and possessed of a solid 14 effective courage if you mark their Spoils box.  At nearly 300 points they're rather pricey to fill your whole core requirement with, but you could do worse.  And they're rarely going to be sexy, and not just because they're bald ugly men.  But point for point, if you need nice, flexible guys who will take hits, deal hits, and get where you need them, these guys have got your back.

Red Dragon
Heavy "Infantry": ****
Heavy Damage: ***
Draconic Rage: ****
Overall: ****

This guy has a premium price tag out of step with our flagging economy, but for the middle class consumer able to budget for him, he offers unparalleled options -- and fuel efficiency!  If your plan is to just fly straight in and start busting heads save your points and get a Hill Giant, but if you're willing to be a pain in the butt with him, he'll reciprocate and be a pain in your opponent's.  If you're smart, you can probably cook off a vulnerable back line unit with the fire before flying around to land in an inconvenient place for the opponent.  The most likely result is the splitting off of two guys to deal with the dragon, or the opponent losing.  It can often be ok if the dragon doesn't rise to the challenge of a detached pinch squad -- he's so much more maneuverable and speedy that he'll get where you want him faster than their attack unit can get back into position.  You more or less have to do this with him, though, because otherwise you're going to dilute your line too much and he (and everyone else) is likely to die in a pinch.  Again, if you just want him to stand around and fight in line with your other guys, get a Hill Giant or Ogres or something.  You pay the premium cost here for the flying and the fire breathing...but make sure you use them well, and they'll be worth the price in most games.

Wildman Archers
Fire Support: ***
Anything Else:  Lips sealed
Overall: ****

I like these guys a lot just because they are essentially a (4) 5/5  14" ranged attacker that is completely terrible in every other regard.  This is a good thing, though, because they're as good as any similar archer for their primary goal, and they don't pay for silly things like "adequate defenses" or "courage."  Don't expect miracles of them, but they're great at focusing fire at a very efficient cost.  They also get a "remember this in your other factions" honorable mention, both for the Umenzi, who lack any kind of real archers, and oddly enough for High Elves and Elves of Ravenwood, both of whom have archers that are significantly more expensive and therefore do somewhat different things.

Wildman Horse Archers
Fire Support: **
Light Damage: **
Overall: ***

The poor man's High Elf Bowriders.  These guys are nice because they're speedy and flexible, and the cheapest flanking unit in their faction.  Their fire support suffers somewhat from their limited range, and the "no move and shoot penalty" is more of a necessity than a bonus; they're still no more effective than Bowriders because the Bowriders start six accuracy so even with the move and shoot penalty they have the same attack stats as these guys on the run, and better if they stand still or get engaged.  They also lack Maneuver Mastery.  All that said, these guys are still quite solid because the combination of ranged fire leading to a 6" move pinching unit is a solid formula.  I wouldn't consider these an auto-include by any means, but they're a pretty solid support unit to a line of infantry and monsters, helping guard your flanks or exploit open enemy ones.

Wildman Swords
Light Infantry: ***
Overall: ***

These guys aren't great cheap units; they're really cheap, but their courage is a huge issue since you need to spend a command action for each of them to get it up to something decent.  On the other hand, in a faction full of giant monsters, 142 point cores are a great thing to have.  Sometimes you'll take them, you probably won't be too sad about it, and they'll be fine, but don't expect great or impressive deeds.  Try to get them into pinching positions, because they won't hold up long to any halfway decent unit.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 03:51:14 PM by BubblePig »

GoIndy

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 01:47:55 PM »
Just a general comment about the healer mages.  (jncoming wall of text!!)

I use them, alot, with pretty much every faction.  However, I've found them to be especially strong with the dwarves and orcs.  (especially the dwarves)  And, basically, I use them to do absolutely opposite for what you recommend....

I use them to make already hardy units that much hardier!!  If you have a 2/2 or a 2/3 defensive unit, (and for dwarves, that is dang near everything), you have a unit that probably won't take damage in bunches.  They be ground down over time, like, 2 damage points a turn possibly, unless facing some seriously strong opposition.  This, to me, is the best use of a healer mage, to make hard to kill units REALLY hard to kill.

Now, 200 points really is alot, but....I am not at all sure they still aren't undervalued....Three things (well, maybe 3 and a half) things in games I have played jump out at me that make them still look pretty good at 200.

1)  They will likely bless multiple units as the armies advance upon each other.  They can prepare several units ahead of time for the upcoming skirmish...this can be huge.
2)  At the end of the game, when alot of units have been destroyed, less and less damage is done every turn.  That means any healing done means more and more in effect.
3)  Often, the game can be decided right in the middle, when a line of reasonably close units smash into each other.  The fact that the healer mages can support the line will very likely mean rout checks are happening early to the enemy. 
Bonus (3.5)  They do this without using cards.  I love having cards!!

So, what happens in real life?  200 points means, basically, my opponent will have one extra unit of crappy archers of some kind, and maybe upgraded swordsman to spearman.  (It doesn't have to be that, obviously, but that's about 200 points)  So, lets just say my slow 2.5 advancing dwarves (axemen)are "charging" across the map, and the enemy spearman are on hold, and the archers are behind them peppering my swords as they approach.  What kind of damage are we looking at?

We'll say Dwarves go first....
Turn1:  Dwarves dont move...Healer applies aura.  Out of range of archers.
Turn1E:  Enemy Spearman hold...still out of range.
Turn2:  Dwarves advance 2.5, now 12.5 away from Spear, 15.0 away from archers...out of range.  Healers apply aura to another unit!!
Turn2E:  Enemy hold....still out of range.
Turn 3:  Dwarves advance 2.5, now 10.00 away, 12.5 from archers...long range.  Estimated damage is 4/9, will call it 0.5....but not active.
Turn 3E:  Enemy hold...still long range....another 0.5....total damage 0.5.  (it is important to consider that the enemy may get lucky or unlucky, and have 1+ points, or 0!!...but for now, will stay with 0.5 so far)
Turn 4:  Dwarves advance 2.5, now 7.5 away, 10.0 from archers...long range.  Another Dwarven unit nearby has aura applied.  (Now 3 units have healing aura on them)  0.5 damage now expected.
Turn 4E:  Enemy hold...still long range...another 0.5...1 damage total.
Turn 5:  Dwarves advance 2.5...creeping up there.  5.0 away...7.5 away from archers...STILL long range.  Dwarves are healed, aura removed, and only heal the 1 damage.
Turn 5E:  Enemy hold....still long range...another 0.5.   0.5 damage total.
Turn 6:  Dwarves too far away to make it...grrr...advance 2.5...2.5 away, 5.0 away from archers...close range!!  Decision on healing made....we'll say normal healing applied....Dwarves back done to zip. 
Turn 6E:  Enemy decision...do they charge?  We'll assume they hold again, cause that is how they roll.  (perhaps they want to gain another card for whatever reason)  Archer damage now up to expected damage 0.83, we'll call it 1.  Dwarves back to 1.
Turn 7:  Dwarves "smash" into enemy on charge.  Are healed....They arrive pristine, and now the archers will have likely modifier at firing at an engaged unit!!  (depending rule).  Normal melee now ensues.....(And I'll assume NO penalty for shooting into an engagement)

Now, spearman are a little better than swordsman/axemen, no question.   Doing the math real quick and figuring expected damage, over the course of a turn, the Axemen will do an expected 1.67 damage to the Spearman.  The combined damage the Bows and Spearman will do to the Axemen is 2.67!!  That is interesting, since the healers will heal precisely 1 point every round expected!!  So....we have in essence a standoff, and makes it seem like the healer is only pulling his weight.

However, 2 things....
1)  The dice won't ever roll a 0.67, or a 1.67, or whatever.  The person with the healer mage need not heal if nothing happens, or apply a aura for future healing, or not use the aura if only one point done.  So, while the amount healed once battle is joined will generally be 1, there is some flexibility.
2)  This fight is not occuring in a vacuum!!  There are likely 4, 4!! other units within healing range, and the healer has flexibility there in choosing his 'targets'.  Again, this flexibility is more than a little useful, since dice are involved up and down the line, and you can choose who you heal after they are damaged. 

So...what generally happens?
The first 3 turns are generally prep, and aura is applied to 3 different units.
The next 3 turns are total melee/war, and the battle rages over a large area, 5 points of healing generally done.
The next 3 turns, multiple units from either side are missing, and now often units are maneuving back around to engage new targets, and lines often reshored up....and aura is again being tossed on the new line. 

So, you have a close fight, could go either way, and all of a sudden that unit 1 box from a rout check is now 3 boxes away!! 

Healer mage ftw!! 

(Again, I apologize for length, but trying to make it clear where I was coming from)




lazyj

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 02:09:44 PM »
Under the current shooting rules, if I'm playing a Stand and Shoot army I'm not shooting your 2/2 line units, I'm shooting your 1/2 Healer Mages. And if I happen to be Hawks with Longbows (which I upgraded from Bowmen for roughly those 200 points you spent on Healer Mages) 4 dice at 6/6 means you don't have Healer Mages for very long.  ;D

However, under the upcoming new rules for shooting where your "reserve" troops are a bit more protected, your tactics make more sense. Still, as you posted there are a lot of turns of me just watching you spread your healing love around. If my battle plan can't be adjusted to compensate for the healing you're doing, then pity me for I am already lost.

You make good points about the Healers - but I'm still not convinced they are an auto-include.

Edit: Longbows only shoot four dice! You'd think I'd learn by now...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 03:29:20 PM by lazyj »

Niko White

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 06:39:31 PM »

I'm pretty convinced they're not for a very different reason: in most cases against good opponents, if the Dwarves (say) are just taking 1-2/turn, they're already as hardy as they need to be because the opponent isn't planning on breaking through there.  That means they'll probably only die in a pinch once the vulnerable unit has crumbled, a situation the healers might help (by protecting the vulnerable unit) but probably not as much as 200 points of line unit (whether in the form of another guy or upgrades to your existing ones) or fighting flank unit would.

Again, they aren't awful by any stretch, and they can be useful to fight stand and shoot armies sometimes (though those armies have bigger problems against most factions that might bring healers, I think) but I can't think of any faction where they're close to an auto-run except maybe Romans.  Again, there's such a thing as "too invincible" when that costs 200 points that might be better used elsewhere.

GoIndy

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 10:52:07 AM »
Lazyj:
Yeah, a Hawk Longbowman will take a unit of healers down, but it will actually take quite awhile.  It doesn't seem like it should, but since they can heal themselves, you are looking at just under 1 damage per turn, net.  This will in effect mean your longbows are letting the entire line approach unscathed at best.

So, what happens?  Since you have longbows, perhaps you have a unit of spearman in front of them.  (speculating, I am hardly a Hawkshold player)  That means I need a 378 point unit in front of my healers advancing.  (you have 220 in spears, 358 in longbows...578)  Closest I could see was Orc Mauraders, so lets see what happens with that....

Ok....turn 1, I aura the Mauraders.  (Not realizing you are going to smack the healers) 
Turn 1E:  You fire extreme range at healers, doing 1.
turn 2:  Mauraders advance 3.5, Mauraders 11.5 from spears.  Healers advance at 2.5, since we know see how the wind blows.  This costs us an action, so not all is perfect.  (But now I will probably make this is a standard play from now on)  Healers heal themselves...back to 0.
Turn 2E:  Extreme range fire, 1 to healers.  (range to healers 17.5)  healers back to 1.
Turn 3:  Mauraders advance 3.5, mauraders 8 from spears.  Healers move up another 2.5, heal themselves.
Turn 3E:  Extreme range fire, 1 to healers.  (range to healers 15.0)  healers back to 1.
turn 4:  Mauraders advance 3.5, now 4.5!! from spears.  Healers move up another 2.5, heal themselves.
turn 4E:  Healers have moved into long range unfortunately, so take just under 2 points of damage a turn now.  Will call it 2....2 total.
turn 5:  Mauraders lashed, smash into Spears.  Now, expected damage of the Mauraders is just over 2 on impact with the lash, but still just under 2 afterwards without.  So, the spears will face a rout check after 3 rounds of fighting, and will likely be disintegrated regardless after 5 rounds.  The Spears will do 1 point of damage per round to the Mauraders expected.  So...Spears take 2, Mauraders 1, healers heal themselves to 1 damage.
Turn 5E:  Spears take 2, now at 4.  Mauraders take 1, now at 2.  Healers take 2, now at 3, possible rout.  I'll comment on that in a sec, but lets assume first off they DO!! rout.  They turn around, move 3.5.
Turn 6:  Healers rallied, whip back around.  Spears take 2, now at 6, rout check.  Mauraders take 1, now at 3.  If the Spearman rout, it is all over but the crying, but we'll assume they make it.
Turn 6E:  Spearman take 2, now at 8, rout check again.  Mauraders take 1.  Decision time, big time, for Longbows.  Lets presume they switch targets to Mauraders now, as healers at extreme range.  Looking at just over 1, combined with the just under 1 from the yellow Spears, so Mauraders at 5...rout check.  In essence, if the Mauraders MAKE their rout check, this is over.  So, of course, they fail.  And, again, we'll assume the Spearman make it.  Mauraders whip around, move 3.5.
Turn 7:  Mauraders are rallied, whip back around.  Healers begin march forward, heal the Mauraders 2 points, removing the aura, Mauraders back to 3.  healers stay at 3.
Turn 7E:  Decision time again for Longbows.  Both enemy units at 3.  My guess is, you try and fire at mauraders, hoping for the damage another miracle rout.  Odds are, it won't happen.

Now, consider...I made the orc/healer eat every rout, when in essence making ANY of them is game deciding.  I made the Hawks make every rout, when likewise, losing any of them is game deciding.  Now, granted, the healers benefit from being at long and extreme range the entire time in my scenario, but in reality, it would be dang near impossible to have it otherwise.  Likewise, in my example I was able to close and smash in at a good range....but since you are a stand and shoot in this example, I am going to be able to set that up at my discretion...every time.  I do agree I did not factor in the use of cards whatsoever, and that card use may (and often is) game deciding.  However, in my mind, use of cards could easily swing either way.

An important thing to consider is, the healer mage, even when under fire from the Longbows, is shielding the front units from fire, just by absorbing it.  And, another gigantic point to consider is, if the healer mage unit is not absolutely dead and buried, he is in essence at 100% combat heal effectiveness. 


GoIndy

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 11:02:35 AM »
Niko:
See, I just don't see that.  The weak unit of whatever that is taking more than 1-2 points of damage a turn is obviously going to get trashed soon regardless, so is not worthy of being healed, laugh.  The healer mage can only heal 1 point a turn presuming no aura, so it has to be worth 1 point of my time to heal.

I mean, 1 point of damage on an Orc Spearman is just worth alot more to me than 1 point on goblin raiders, since the Goblin raiders are going to take damage often in bunches anyway.

Now, that said...it is situational...If my crappy goblin raiders are squared off against a slightly superior foe, like we'll say Ravenwood Swords, they could actually potentially hang in there a long time with some help.  I mean, you'd be looking at one damage a turn there, and the healer can obviously completely counter that.  (But, obviously, 200 points of help a turn is expensive in a weak fight like that)

However, that is exactly the kind of fight that happens late, when alot of the units have been swept aside by the respective parties.  Armies are repositioning, and for a couple of turns you have your total filler unit supported by an also moving around healer unit against a decent enemy unit, and you totally have your way with them.

lazyj

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 11:30:40 AM »
GoIndy, You may very well be right - I haven't had to face Healers yet. In the isolated situation as you laid out I really don't have much to debate.

In an actual game, I'm much more likely to take two units of Longbows and pair them up on whatever I'm trying to kill - and there's no way I could believe a unit of Healers would stand up to 3 rounds of Double Longbow fire. Still, it's possible that 2 Healers (400 points) could effectively tie up my 2 Longbows (700 points) which would be good for you. I'm interested now in seeing how that would shake out....

What it comes down to is I need more experience to test. Great food for thought, thanks for sharing.

GoIndy

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 12:30:44 PM »
Well, the 2 healer dynamic won't be as good, since I can't double heal one unit.  (Whereas you are obviously doubling fire)  Likewise, I agree that often you'll have 2 Longbows....but I doubt there would be very many situations I'd have 2 healers.  So, it is clear in my mind upgrading from 1 longbow to 2 is much more powerful than upgrading from 1 healer to 2. 

What, on a related sidenote, are the range combat changes that are being talked about? 


lazyj

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 01:12:28 PM »
Regarding new shooting rules: Someone official will have to post them, but as I understand things the Rome vs Carthage revision of the rules adds some new modifiers and restrictions to ranged attacks. Things like not shooting over the front lines of enemy troops, etc. There was a post about them somewhere but I can't find it anymore.

Chad_YMG

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2009, 02:41:42 PM »
I think it's really important to separate the value of a point of damage (or a hit point) in the abstract from the in-game impact of a break in your line.

As Andrew has pointed out, Battleground is a game of pinching.  It isn't just about pinching, but one of the fundamental goals you have is to break a pinch-creating hole in your opponent's line while preventing him from doing the same to you.

This means that at high-level play Battleground often comes down to winning your good fights more quickly than you lose your bad ones.  Since good/bad fights often involve damage being done to a relatively crappy unit, keeping your crappy units alive is often more important than healing your good ones which aren't about to fold anyway.
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GoIndy

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2009, 05:26:17 PM »
Right, but that goes both ways.  Wasting even an aura or a heal on a unit that is going to rout and fold doesn't do any good either....especially if it means you come out stronger elsewhere while you are at it.

Think of how crappy some crappy units actually are.  Think about when things go poorly for them.  I don't even mean in the classroom/lab, I mean, think about games you have played.  (But thinking about it in the classroom works for me as well, laugh)  Crappy units can and do go into the yellow on the first round of combat, and often, they have seriously awful morale while they are at it.  Assuming they didn't rout the first time, how often will they be pulverized next round regardless?  Often...nonwithstanding the 1 or 2 points healed.  (And if 2, it implies previous aura usage) 

So, right, it becomes a game of pinching....If the healer can delay a few turns by helping the scrawny dude...sure...who wouldn't toss a heal on him.  However, if I think the dude is going down regardless, (and sometimes, your guys will just be plain overmatched...it happens), then it is likely I won't waste much time thinking about him, and concentrating on how I can possibly force routs in one or more other matchups.

But, regardless, as to the point of trying to stop breaks in your line....the healer is just the fellow!!  After putting the armies down, before even turn 1 starts, you can see potential problems/hotspots....and you can see places where really even up matchups are possibly really going to swing in your favor.  The cool thing about the healer is, you get to prepare as you approach, and then you get to choose who you will heal after the dice are rolled.  (Next turn, obviously, laugh)

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2009, 08:09:43 PM »

Right, but what I'm saying (and perhaps what Chad is saying) is that often the 200 points for the healer mages won't be a good buy, because they're going to either not do as much saving your light unit as just making it non-light would, or would be making a unit harder to break, but not in a way that matters all that much, which is I'm pretty convinced what's going on with your Dwarf example.

Where I have found they can be quite good is if you've got medium guys, especially ones with high courage, like Hawk Spearmen, who usually won't need help individually, but as a whole might benefit a lot.

Romans have even better reasons to like them.

In general, though, they're a fine unit, but I've not found them to be particularly brutal for anyone, even Rome, much though I love bringing them there.

gull2112

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2009, 08:20:55 PM »
Healer mages could be pretty cool on Trolls since in the green they could heal two per turn and in the red the could heal two per turn and then possibly get put in the green to keep on healing.

At some point I'm going to have to try Healer Mages and Trolls. Thanks for the thread!!! :D
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NegativeZer0

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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2009, 08:59:04 AM »
Healer mages could be pretty cool on Trolls since in the green they could heal two per turn and in the red the could heal two per turn and then possibly get put in the green to keep on healing.

At some point I'm going to have to try Healer Mages and Trolls. Thanks for the thread!!! :D

Keep in mind trolls are big so it takes two turns to heal one point of damage off trolls (or 1 turn and 2 healers)
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Re: Repost: Monsters and Mercs Units and Tactics
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2009, 09:48:22 AM »
The play would be to heal a unit of Trolls that would have failed a courage check for first being put into the red.  Let the guys run for a turn or 2 until they get back up to full red health, then heal them into the green.  Then rally them.  Provided you're still alive at that point, I'm sure your opponent will be none too pleased with seeing a fully healthy pair of Trolls heading back their way ;)
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