Author Topic: High Elves Units and Tactics  (Read 25092 times)

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High Elves Units and Tactics
« on: February 21, 2009, 11:15:25 PM »
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High Elves Units and Tactics
I'm gonna start off a big High Elf tactics thread.  I'm going to begin by inspecting the forces!

I'll list each High Elf unit and give a number of stars to each general role I think one might try to use it in, from 1-5.  If I don't list a given role it means I think it can't do that, but I could always be wrong or forgetful, so please respond and post your own if you like!

We can also use this thread for High Elf tactics; I might put some of mine up later but they have shown up in some other places so I might also be lazy.  It'll be a surprise.

If you have a post you've made in another thread that you think fits in this one, feel free to post it; I think it would make some sense to have everything in one place.

General guideline to what the stars mean:

*:  It looks like this unit might be able to do this, but I've found that this is a trap.
**:  In select cases, the unit might not completely embarrass you trying to play this role.
***:  The unit plays the role competently.  Generally it won't work miracles, but it justifies its points in most games.
****:  The unit is excellent at that role.  I'll try to "upgrade" other units in that role to this one if I can.
*****:  Centaurs.

Stars are points-adjusted, so you'll often see a unit that's better on the table getting fewer stars at a role, because it isn't enough better to make the points worth it in my opinion.

Roles:

Tank: This is a unit you use to soak up hits and last long enough for relief to arrive, without planning on it doing significant damage.
Light Infantry:  This is a unit that you plan to have last just long enough to get help, and maybe do a bit of damage while it's at it.  It won't stand up to a real damage unit, but it will prevent opposing tanks from embarrassing you by pinching in.  I think of this as the "offensive" version of the tank unit.
Heavy Infantry:  The game's generalist units.  They have good attack and defense stats, but neither is enough of a standout that they aren't capable of both dealing and taking some damage.  These are the non-specialist guys who you plan to use to cover contingencies and things like that.
Light Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in, either against weak units or into a pinch.  This plan involves breaking them on the first turn because the unit will be in trouble if you don't.
Heavy Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in and beat people up on the charge turn, but unlike Light Damage, you're trusting them to last a few turns if things go wrong.
Fire Support:  This is a unit you use to add fire where it is needed.  You don't count on them to get much done on their own, but combined with a reasonable infantry unit or other fire support, they can create holes in the opposing line and get things going.
Artillery:  The big guns.  These units add fire support, but the fire is meaningful enough that you are hoping they'll do big damage over the course of the game, rather than serving a dedicated support role.
Other:  Sometimes I'll put in another category, like "Centaurs" or "Bowriders" and explain it in the comments.

I'll also give every unit an overall score indicating how often I tend to play it.

High Elf Unit Review

Cygnets
Light Infantry: ***
Tank: **
Overall: **

Cygnets are actually a perfectly fine light infantry type unit; they're very cheap for their stats, and they're able to hold up long enough and do enough damage that two of them pinching will almost certainly take down a reasonable tank or heavy infantry unit, which I consider the hallmark of reasonable light infantry.  Unfortunately the High Elves don't need a light infantry unit, and High Elf command cards and abilities tend to work far better with higher quality units.  The Cygnets are also seemingly comparable to Hawk Swordsmen, but without the Hawk army ability, they can't really be trusted as tanks like Swordsmen can.  These guys have some specialized roles, but I find Battle Squads just fit the vast majority of High Elf armies better, for a mostly negligible increase in costs.

High Elf Battle Squad
Tank: ****
Light Infantry: *
Overall: ****

It is a rare High Elf army that I build without having any of these guys in it.  They're absolutely fantastic at heroic defiance: they'll hold a piece of ground for ages and not give an inch.  With heavy infantry style defense stats, eight health, and good courage, they're going to hold up even vastly more expensive units for quite some time.  Newer players often think they suck, though, because they plan to have them work as some sort of light infantry unit, or a heavy infantry on the cheap.  Don't let their high attack skill and average strength fool you: these guys are not likely to average even one damage, and they've got so few dice that it rarely makes sense to boost them with offensive cards (though dice adders can be very good.)  They serve as stopgap number 1, though, against the horrible risk of pinches the High Elves often run.  If all you expect for them (and at 187 points this is a great deal!) is to be flypaper and hold an enemy unit down until you can pinch it, then they'll serve you exceedingly well.

Elder Blade Battle Squad
Tank: ****
Light Infantry: *
Overall: ***/*

Sadly, these guys pay a hefty amount of points for an increased stat that I'm pretty convinced you'll never care about.  They cost 33 more points than a Battle Squad and they'll barely ever perform noticeably better.  They technically get three stars because they're still an amazingly good tank unit once they're on the table...but given you have a cheaper, in faction unit that is exactly the same defensively for fewer points, I'm not sure why you'd ever take them.  Frankly, in most situations, I think I'd rather have the command card.

High Elf Spearmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: ***
Spearman: **
Overall: **

These guys are odd.  They occupy a points cost somewhere between Swordsmen and Elder Blade Swordsmen, which is handy I guess if you've got the spare points, but it's an awfully specific role.  They're a fine unit that won't disgrace you or anything, but they're not great at their spearmen role because I find often the threat of spearmen is the most powerful thing against cavalry or large guys, and these guys are too expensive to really make me feel great about that.  If my 220 point Hawk or 230 point Ravenwood Spearmen are warding off some 400 point monstrosity because they'll maul it badly if it charges them, that's hilarious.  But these guys are almost 400 themselves, so I'm not nearly as happy leaving them out of combat.  That said, they're still a strict upgrade on Swordsmen, so if you've got the points, and you have a Swordsmen, I'd rather have these guys than an extra command card.

High Elf Swordsmen
Tank: ****
Heavy Infantry: **
Overall: ***

I consider these guys to be the 2500-3000 point game's equivalent of Battle Squads.  They're not really going to do damage in line with their cost in most cases (300 points is a lot!) but they're very brave, have great defense, and a lot of health given how hard it is to get hits through on them.  I field Battle Squads a lot more often, because I find they get the job done well enough and I'm always having trouble fitting in damage units, but these guys are fine, and as games get bigger, the opposing line's average strength goes up, so you have to budget at least some of your Battle Squads into these guys because their opposition gets tougher.  I consider these guys only mediocre as heavy infantry because High Elves really need their heavies to kick out better attacks to justify themselves.

Elder Blade Swordsmen
Tank: **
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: **
Overall: ****

These guys are the other core infantry unit that I really like in the High Elves at 2000 points.  They're brutally hard to kill at that level, and with (5) 6/6 attack stats they're not going to end up with the problem that cripples Swordsmen as a breakthrough unit: 2's to wound plate wearers.  These guys are also incredibly flexible because their ability to pretend to be a heavy damage unit in a pinch is highly relevant if the opponent just tries to swarm you with terrible guys.  Against really awful opponents like Goblins, they've got a very good chance to rout them on the first turn, so they can do a passable impression of a real damage unit against foes like that.  This sounds like faint praise, but it is really handy: no matter how much information you have about the opponent (unless you know the exact list, I suppose) Battleground armies are flexible enough that the unexpected happens quite often.  Having units reasonably capable of cross-training is really important in cases like that.

High Elf Archers
Fire Support: ***
Charging into a pinch:  Grin
Overall: ***

These guys are a solid, workhorse unit.  They're higher quality attacks than most fire support, and accuracy on archers is always very welcome, but they come with a hefty price tag, so they're only sort of ok at it anyway.  The High Elves love shooting units, though, since they're so evasive with maneuver mastery and can a pain to chase down out of proportion to the rewards you get for doing so.  Never forget they can charge in and pinch someone from up to 5" away (Sprint) either; it is not only fun, but also often highly effective.  They only get three stars because they're quite pricey for a unit that can't do anything but shoot, and other than being core and a few more points, Bowriders do everything they do and more.

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: **
Heavy Damage: *
Overall: *

I don't like these guys much.  First things first: they will never survive charging a halfway decent unit head on.  They're just too terrible on turns beyond the first.  Only four attack dice at most, and 2/2 defense, means they're not made for that.  What they are made for is charging in at flanks, and they do a passable job at it.  Unfortunately they're hampered by two major failings in that scenario: first, they are quite a lot of points for someone who can only engage in favorable circumstances, and second they only move 5".  Both of these are pretty crippling, and for a significant but not ridiculous 40 additional points, you could get Bowriders who are likely to get the job done charging a flank and both move faster and add support fire until they get there or if things go wrong.  These guys are core, but even in the very rare army where I don't want to run any line units, I'm going archers for my cores over these guys.  I basically only ever field them in round 1 of Kingdoms campaigns, where you aren't allowed to bring anyone but Core units so there aren't any other flanking units to choose from.

end part 1
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 03:50:42 PM by BubblePig »

Niko White

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2009, 09:38:33 AM »
HE part 2
High Elf Rangers
Elder Blade Rangers
Light Infantry: ***
Heavy Infantry: *
Overall: ***

I like these guys a fair bit, but I find between Knights and Bowriders I don't often fit them into armies.  Don't make the mistake of trying to tank or take major hits with them; these guys are a classic light infantry type, taking advantage of their maneuverability and speed to hit targets of opportunity and go into advantageous positions.  They're good as far as that goes, but they're a bit overkill if you're planning on having them come in for a pinch, so I mostly only use them if I'm trying to go without front lines at all, a technique that can be successful, but is definitely difficult to pull off.  I've grouped both Ranger variants in with each other because I consider the Elder Blade to be virtually perfectly costed in this case; I'll bring either Elder Blades or normal Rangers based on if I have the spare points and if I know who I'm facing; a plate faction (or lizards) gets Elder Blades while Umenzi or other Elves get normal.  The main question is "do I bring either kind of ranger"; they serve exactly the same role once I've figured that out.

High Elf Bowriders
Support Fire: **
Light Damage: ***
Degenerate Endgame: ***
Causing the opponent to want to punch you: ****
Overall: *****

I included the silly "other" categories partially because they amused me, but also because the Bowriders are one of the few generalist units in this game that aren't bad, and so just listing their primary roles does them a disservice.  They don't excel at any given role, but unlike, say, Ravenwood Bearkin, who don't excel at any role but will often leave you wishing they did, the Bowriders have such a huge amount of maneuverability and flexibility that they'll get to do three or four different things per game, all valuable, based on the need.  The most basic is to have them give support fire as the line advances, then charge into a pinch, before finally being a devastating threat in the end game once units have thinned out enough to let them run around causing trouble.  They can do a lot more than that too, though; they are one of the best units in the game for forcing the opponent to respond to their presence.  If they are allowed to get free, they'll run rampant all over the opposing army, so just the threat of them threading their adorable way through the enemy line and getting into the wide open spaces behind the main lines is unacceptable to wise opponents.  This means they'll often lead one or two units as good or better than them all over the place, shooting at them all the while, helping negate your numbers disadvantage.  They're one of my favorite units in the game, not so much because they're one of the most powerful (though they might be) but because they reward skill, flexible thinking, and brinksmanship of various sorts that are almost always fun.  In the interests of objectivity: do be careful with them.  They're quite fragile, especially to six skill archers like other Elves or Longbows.  They're also very expensive for their health and raw power, so if you're lacking in confidence that you understand how to use them, be aware they might be disappointing.  Of course, if you never try, you'll never learn Wink

High Elf Battlemages
Support Fire: **
Drawing Command Cards: **
Overall: **

My opinion of these guys has gone down dramatically since I first started playing the High Elves.  I love the unit for flavor and the elegance of the design, but it just doesn't do it for me mechanically.  The problem is that it falls on the other side of the generalist category from Bowriders, for me.  The attack is deeply questionable, worse than the High Elf archers by a little bit inherently, and by a fair bit given that the Archers have better synergy with most of the High Elf command cards, which add dice and so want you to have few good dice rather than more bad ones.  The card drawing is quite nice, and seems great given the High Elves can be very command action hungry, but even capping out your starting command cards at six costs almost 100 points less than these guys, and they're rarely going to net you six cards.  That isn't to say I'd never take them, but be very sure you know what you're doing and what you expect from them.  You have to really get strong value out of both the card side and the attack side for these guys to be good, and that happens way less likely than your Bowriders will be good at both ranged and melee combat.

High Elf Knights
Heavy Damage: ****
Overall: ****

I love a unit that's completely clear about what it does, and does it well.  These guys exist to plow into flanks or to charge into light to medium opposing units and butcher them.  They're sort of problematic compared to Hawk Knights because 3 of their 8 points of charge power are bonus, so they're a little weak against plate wearers beyond the charge turn, but they're also cheaper and their defensive profile is way better overall.  It doesn't hurt that 3*/2 defense makes them better against artillery and often better at fighting other cavalry.  Really they don't get 5 stars because charging with them isn't quite as fun as charging with Centaurs.  Which isn't really fair because nothing is as fun as charging with Centaurs, but that's life.  (That said, High Elf Knights will actually often beat Centaurs in a fight.)

High Elf Scorpions
Artillery: ***
Really annoying to use:  Angry
Overall: **

Sometimes you just need a six power shooting unit.  Fair enough.  I'd only use these guys if you have a really, really good reason they're better than archers, though, because all of their "Can't" clauses are really annoying.  Dwarven Ballistas have all the same ones and work fine, but that's because Dwarves can barely move and so no one cares that their artillery unit is also barely mobile, whereas High Elves love to run around like ten-year-olds hopped up on amphetamines so it is pretty irksome when you've got a unit that's so clumsy and methodical.  That said, sometimes you know the opponent is bringing a hydra or dragon or something and just need some way to hurl giant pointy sticks at it from a safe distance, and if that's what's going on, this is the unit for you.  We Elves like to have it available, but hope we need never use it.

Celestial Guard
Heavy Infantry: ****
Overall: ***

There's not a lot to say about this guy, but I've never let that stop me.  With his absurd melee attacks and hilariously high defenses, he doesn't pretend to be anything but what he is: a preposterous melee beater that will never die.  And he's awesome at it!  He is indeed almost immortal and will dish out quite a lot of damage, really only rivaled by giant monsters and things that get impact hits.  Unfortunately I can't in good conscience give this guy more than three stars overall because while I love just how absurdly good he is, he's a staggeringly expensive unit in a faction full of incredibly powerful, staggeringly expensive units.  If you're playing at a high point value, or you know there's a choke point in the terrain or otherwise will be an area you want to hold at all costs, this unit will get it done for you.  Otherwise I'd worry he's just going to cost more points to win a fight that an Elder Blade Swordsman would already have won for 150 points less.



High Elf Thread Part 2: General Tips and Tactics

1. Remember what Your Army Ability Is

Precision isn't the High Elf army ability.  With most factions, the checkbox ability is the big one, the centerpiece of the faction.  With the High Elves, this isn't true.  Precision can be handy, especially against some of the nightmare defense skill units that can come up, like Antonians, or if you just need to know that you'll have some sort of attack booster, but the real High Elf army abilities are Maneuver Mastery and Sprint, especially Maneuver Mastery.  One of the reasons I consider the High Elves to be an army that rewards skill is that these two abilities are extremely powerful if used right, but also extremely easy to misuse.  Sprinting in for a pinch or engagement a turn early is the basic one, and can be devastating, but it really just scratches the surface.  A few that come up more often:

Defensive Use.  Remember that while getting in there is nice, the combination of MM and Sprint lets you avoid engagements you don't like better than any other faction can.  A MM'ed foot unit can escape from anything that moves 3.5" or less literally forever.  If you also Sprint it, it can gain ground, or stay away from things with 5" move or less.  (If you're really clever you can gain ground on 3.5" units without sprinting by exploiting the fact that you don't have to pay for turns and they do, but this can be hard unless you have a lot of clearance.)  This means you can do hilarious things with, say, late game High Elf foot archers, who can run away from several melee units as they shoot them to death.  It also means that Bowriders shouldn't ever get engaged unless you want them to barring things like Goblin Wolf Riders.

Shooting Gaps and the "Clearly Visible" Rule.  Remember that you can't final rush something you can't see at the start of the M&C phase.  Likewise, you can't shoot something you can't see.  This means you can cut very close to (or between!) enemy units, and as long as you don't end in their front arc, they can't pin you down and have to take move and shoot if they want to shoot at you.  You also take no movement penalty for moving sideways, so you can slide through gaps that you don't appear to have any right to.  This is great for getting Knights or Bowriders at soft targets.

2. Balance your Roles!

Like the Hawks, the High Elves risk having an overabundance of tanking.  Battle Squads are awesome and you virtually always want a few of them, but without some sold heavy hitters, you have a strong risk that all you're doing is forcing your opponent to win slowly.  Good heavy infantry can do a passable job at this, and having a unit of Elder Blade Swordsmen mixed in with the Battle Squads can be a great idea, but if you don't get some sort of dedicated damage unit (usually Bowriders or Knights) you're asking for trouble.  Fire support like archers can also be great, because adding weight of fire to a solid heavy infantry unit like Celestial Guard or Swordsmen can push them over the top into getting the job done in time to bail out the Battle Squads.

3. Standing Orders Matter a Lot

You should always be careful with your starting standing orders, since they are essentially one free command action for every unit in your army if you do them right, but this can go doubly for High Elves, especially units like Bowriders that you plan to use MM on with some regularity.  Keep in mind what you want it to do if you don't want to spare the order for MM that turn, or what you will want it to do on the turn you stop using MM on it.  Hold, Ranged, and Close (all usually with targets) can all make sense for Bowriders or Knights.  Make sure you pick one with an eye to being able to save as many command actions as possible; the last thing you want to happen is to have a turn where you need to do something else with your command actions but can't because if you don't your Bowrider will charge a holding Tyrant Spearmen or something.

4. Consider Unbalancing Your Roles!

Usually making sure you have a little bit of all the roles is a quite good way to go with High Elves, but the fact that MM and Sprint are such good defensive tools can also make you better than anyone else at completely neglecting tanking and infantry.  You don't have enough command actions to do this on an open board, but some terrain, including some of the Kingdoms stuff, is very constrained.  If you expect the opponent to be slow moving or broken up by terrain, you can go wild and just bring archers and cavalry and hope to annihilate the opposing units one by one.  I usually run an army like this with High Elf Archers filling in the cores and combat teams of Bowriders + Knight or 2x Bowriders filling in the rest.  A Knight charging the front and a Bowrider the flank will see off virtually any unit in the game, and the concentrated fire of all those archery units can soften most things up enough that a Knight or even Bowrider charge will get it done alone (though Bowriders on the front are risky as they are awfully fragile.)

This kind of army really requires a mastery of all of the tricks and tactics at the command of the High Elf general: MM + Sprint to avoid unwanted engagements, how to pick battles, how to do initial orders as well as possible, knowing when to pinch in with foot archers, and so on.  The rewards can be very high, however; if an opponent outnumbers you badly but will have to deal with a slow or broken advance, sometimes your only hope is to avoid protracted engagements entirely because anyone who ends up engaged for very long will get swarmed and killed.  This kind of army can be a solution to that issue.

NegativeZer0

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2009, 11:38:12 AM »

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: **
Heavy Damage: *
Overall: *

I don't like these guys much.  First things first: they will never survive charging a halfway decent unit head on.  They're just too terrible on turns beyond the first.  Only four attack dice at most, and 2/2 defense, means they're not made for that.  What they are made for is charging in at flanks, and they do a passable job at it.  Unfortunately they're hampered by two major failings in that scenario: first, they are quite a lot of points for someone who can only engage in favorable circumstances, and second they only move 5".  Both of these are pretty crippling, and for a significant but not ridiculous 40 additional points, you could get Bowriders who are likely to get the job done charging a flank and both move faster and add support fire until they get there or if things go wrong.  These guys are core, but even in the very rare army where I don't want to run any line units, I'm going archers for my cores over these guys.  I basically only ever field them in round 1 of Kingdoms campaigns, where you aren't allowed to bring anyone but Core units so there aren't any other flanking units to choose from.

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: ***
Heavy Damage: *
Small Point Games:****
Overall: ***

I really don't think you give chariots enough credit.  These are defiantly a small point game unit (500-1000) but in these games chariots have almost no rival and they are core giving you more options in these tight build games.
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

Niko White

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2009, 12:01:39 PM »
High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: ***
Heavy Damage: *
Small Point Games:****
Overall: ***

I really don't think you give chariots enough credit.  These are defiantly a small point game unit (500-1000) but in these games chariots have almost no rival and they are core giving you more options in these tight build games.

I never play games those sizes, so I can believe they're ok there, though I'm still not sure I wouldn't rather have a Battlesquad and some extra points.  At least in those games they're far more likely to find units on the battlefield they can safely charge, but they're still quite expensive given they can't safely attack units costing more than about 150 points without going into a pinch.

They're certainly not a useless unit, and core isn't nothing, especially in as you say small games or early Kingdoms rounds, but I've always found them to be pretty subpar in pickup games of standard points values (1500-2500) which is really what I was trying to convey with my unit reviews.

NegativeZer0

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 11:20:54 AM »
The only time I would take chariots in a game over 1000 points is when there is a road as chariots are then fast cavalry.  Even with roads tough chariots are a tough purchase because they really are too weak for thier points in normal and high point games.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:33:03 PM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

lazyj

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 10:25:10 PM »
I think a big drawback for the Guard is that they are often placed on the battlefield too early. Since the High Elves are almost always outnumbered, they usually have to place everything before their opponent. Which means their opponent can wait to see where the Celestial Guard is going and plan accordingly. Against Umenzi in particular, this is crushing. Celestial Guard? Meet my elephant.  ;D

If you're going to bring the Celestial Guard along, perhaps the only remedy is to go ahead and throw the Guard in the center of your battle line and damn the enemy to do his worst. The incredible mobility of the elves should allow you to dance out of any particularly dangerous situations, and your opponent (lacking this flexibility) can't pull the same kind of shenanigans he might on the flank.

Has anyone else had success with the Celestial Guard? (not counting Hidden Deployment  ;) )

Quelmotz

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 04:00:41 AM »

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: **
Heavy Damage: *
Overall: *

I don't like these guys much.  First things first: they will never survive charging a halfway decent unit head on.  They're just too terrible on turns beyond the first.  Only four attack dice at most, and 2/2 defense, means they're not made for that.  What they are made for is charging in at flanks, and they do a passable job at it.  Unfortunately they're hampered by two major failings in that scenario: first, they are quite a lot of points for someone who can only engage in favorable circumstances, and second they only move 5".  Both of these are pretty crippling, and for a significant but not ridiculous 40 additional points, you could get Bowriders who are likely to get the job done charging a flank and both move faster and add support fire until they get there or if things go wrong.  These guys are core, but even in the very rare army where I don't want to run any line units, I'm going archers for my cores over these guys.  I basically only ever field them in round 1 of Kingdoms campaigns, where you aren't allowed to bring anyone but Core units so there aren't any other flanking units to choose from.

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: ***
Heavy Damage: *
Small Point Games:****
Overall: ***

I really don't think you give chariots enough credit.  These are defiantly a small point game unit (500-1000) but in these games chariots have almost no rival and they are core giving you more options in these tight build games.

Not trying to shoot your ideas down, but even in these tight build games, I'll always take a ranger, if not for the core needs. But with cheap and tough battlesquads, you usually don't have to worry about the cores.

Lets look at the pros and cons:

Rangers:
261 points (5) 6/5  3/1  C: 13 MC: 5" Health: 4-2-2

Chariots:
252 points (4) 6/5  2/2  C:13 MC: 5" Health: 3-2-2

Pros for rangers:
-One more attack die - which doesn't make a huge impact but it is good. It allows an average of 0.33 damage more than (4) 6/5.
-Better defensive stats - this is actually a big plus, though it doesn't seem like it. It will prevent much more damage then 2/2.
-Dodgier against ranged - 4/1 destroys 3/2 (cavalry bonus).
-One more green health - who cares but I'll just list it. Also, one green health allows you to last surprisingly longer before having to take a rout check.

Cons for rangers:
-Costs more - 9 points isn't going to burn a hole in your pocket though.
-Thats it?

Pros for chariots:
-2 IMPACT HITS - This is a very good add-on
-Cavalry? Not really since its all factored in already.
-Core. As I mentioned above, battlesquads are much better core fillers.

Cons for chariots:
-Crap defence, will get annihilated by good archers (though they should be shooting at something else but who cares?)
-Other cons listed above (rangers).

So once again, I'll rarely pick chariots, but they're a great unit in certain circumstances, I won't deny that. 2 impact hits is awesome, and its very fast on a road. I'll almost never take them unless I have a really good army but I lack core and I'm sick of battlesquads (really I see them every match I play...).

Still, I'll give them */**/***. They can be amazing in rare circumstances, but usually fall to the wrath of the mighty rangers. They're not useless, that's definitely true, and I'll give them ***/**** for light damage. They're not that fast but 2 impact hits isn't anything to jeer about, especially for a reasonably cheap unit (compare to the not-so-amazing 2 impact hits for the Giant War Elephant - wait a GWE has 2 impact hits only?!?! *checks card* Overpowered chariots!! :P)
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Niko White

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 10:54:21 AM »

Here's a tactics post I made in another thread that belongs here for the record.

Basic principles of High Elf play:
1) Your Battle Squads are good enough to stand up to a two's-company from units with (5) 5/5 offense or lower, at least for a little while.
2) Maneuver Mastery lets you protect important guys and get them where they need to be very fast.
3) Everyone dies if they get pinched.

So the plan is to set up so that the opponent has to do two's-company on your guys instead of pinching them, and take some fast hitters (Bowriders, Knights, Rangers) around the side/back.  Use the Battle Squads and other tank units like flypaper, trapping the opponents on them long enough to win the battle by pinching or hitting hard there or elsewhere.

You can do a lot of other cool things too.  A team up of High Elf Archers and Elder Blade Swordsmen will pretty much shred a medium or light unit, which can open up a hole in the line you can exploit.  If you have shorter lines than usual, either due to terrain or to low points, a single Archer or Bowrider off in the middle of nowhere can give the opponent no good choices: one unit will never pin it down because of Maneuver Mastery, but if they send two, they're sacrificing their numerical advantage on your line, as well as likely sending more points worth of guys out there to root the thing out.

The Battle Squad flavor text, "sometimes few must do the job of many," is basically the best guideline to playing the High Elves you can get.  Your focus needs to be on the fact that you're going to be outnumbered, and on how to use your few guys to best advantage.  That means very actively picking where you want to stall and where you want to smash in and break through.  This is an important thing for more or less any Battleground army to think about, but is absolutely essential for High Elves.  If you just take guys that look cool and try to smash in with them and hope for the best, you're going to die horribly, whereas that sort of thing can work with some of the nice heavy infantry factions like Dwarves or Orcs.

Zelc

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 04:13:40 PM »
Alright, gentlemen, you guys are seriously underrating the High Elf Chariots :).  I present to you, the power of MATH! :D

Let's take a look at what happens when we charge a 2/2 unit.  We'll look at 3 units: Chariots, Rangers, and Knights.

Chariots
Chariots are (4) 6/7 on the charge with 2 Impact Hits.  Against a 2/2 defense, they hit on 4's and 5's.  This results in an expected damage of 3.9!  They actually have a 65% chance of doing at least 4 damage on the charge turn, and another 25% chance of doing 3 damage.

Rangers
Rangers are (5) 6/6 on the charge.  Against a 2/2 defense, they hit on 4's and 4's.  This results in an expected damage of 2.2.  They only have a 13% chance of dealing 4 or more damage, and actually have a 60% chance of dealing less than 3 damage (basically they have an 82% chance of dealing 1-3 damage).

Knights
Knights are (6) 6/8 on the charge with 1 Impact Hit.  Against a 2/2 defense, they hit on 4's and 1 overkill.  This results in an expected damage of 4.8!  They have an 86% chance of dealing at least 4 damage, and another 11% chance of dealing 3.

From this, we can see that Chariots and Rangers serve completely different roles.  Rangers will give you some good consistent damage.  Chariots are more like the Poor Man's Knights.  You want to match them up against a wimpy unit, force that turn 1 rout check, and ideally get as many charges as possible before they die.  By the way, against a 2/1 unit, Chariots average 4.5 damage on the charge.  Knights average 5.0.  Against a 3/1 unit, it's even closer.  Chariots average 3.8, Knights average 4.0!!

What about after the Charge turn?  Against a 2/2 unit, assuming both are in the green, Chariots average 1.3 damage per turn and Rangers average 1.7 damage per turn.  Obviously Rangers have an advantage here because they have another green box and a slightly better defense profile.  But just from this simplistic view, it takes 4.25 turns of combat after the charge for the Rangers to catch up on damage.

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2011, 11:24:20 PM »
I always thought the Chariots where nifty.  The thing with them is that they are not a quite a line unit and not quite a pure cavalry unit either which could sometimes make for an odd fit.  If you can work around that (and good HE players certainly can) then they are certainly a good shock unit.  Getting the charge bonus on the flank can also be plain rude.
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Niko White

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 12:14:28 AM »

Yeah, I'm fonder of them than I used to be.  Still not likely to take them in 2000+ games because the Knights just rule so hard, but they definitely have a useful place.  I definitely take them more often than I do Ranger variants these days.

elgin_j

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2011, 03:26:49 AM »
Anyone ever tried a 7 chariot army build?
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gornhorror

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2011, 08:56:02 AM »
Granted, I'm not a player who uses the high elves often, but when I do, I usually use the chariots.  I find when you take the high elves unless you load up on battlesquads and/or cygnants, your line is about 1-2 units less than your opponent.  Because of this, I usually can't justify the knights unit, I find them a bit expensive.  I know they are great, but I kinda feel about them the same way I do about Hawk Knights, not quite worth the cost.  The chariots are just great for 252 points.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 08:17:00 PM by gornhorror »
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gull2112

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 08:43:20 PM »
The trick is to think of them as light cav with a hell of a punch. They are classic bullies, all too happy to dish it out, but they just can't take it coming back at them.

Which is why I don't think a seven chariot army build is ever something you'd build as a serious army. On turn two you'd have all these dazed enemy units in the yellow looking at an empty battlefield going, "WTF?"
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Hannibal

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Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 09:02:26 PM »
I don't think I'd do it because I still think that the chariots are over priced for what they do (I can get a burst of speed out of an infantry unit for 1 CA and a heck of a lot more durability), but that being said, don't underestimate the power of an all cav charge.  I've done it with Hawkshold in Kingdoms and have had some success.  Granted, Hawkshold has Scouts along with Knights to go with those Light Cav, but the principle is the same:  somewhere on the line you'll bust through his units and then "its flankerin' time!"