Author Topic: Dwarf Units and Tactics  (Read 17666 times)

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5157
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 10:11:23 AM »
Quote
OK then.  You wind up with the Kingdoms map with the river running through the middle of it and the bridge in the center.  As the Dwarven player, what are the odds that you just stand and shoot?

1 - (probability that you declare the map BS and play on something else)
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2016, 02:11:30 PM »
Quote
OK then.  You wind up with the Kingdoms map with the river running through the middle of it and the bridge in the center.  As the Dwarven player, what are the odds that you just stand and shoot?

1 - (probability that you declare the map BS and play on something else)

I'm guessing from that response that you are more than 50% likely to S&S  8)
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

BubblePig

  • Guest
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2016, 04:45:22 PM »
Nailing it down as a fixed percent is pure folly. Well I would think that the mathematical expression as a whole would be dictated by logic whereas the second term in the expression would be dictated by individual temperament or even whim of the moment. If this were graphed in Cartesian coordinates, I would certainly advocate frequency of stand and shoot as the dependent variable.

BubblePig

  • Guest
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2016, 04:57:59 PM »
I would also throw in a third order term for doing something really weird like fill core as cheap as possible and take a large contingent of mercs. Which again the probability for which speaks more to the temperament of the commander than the optimization of tactics.

gornhorror

  • Rules Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1800
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2018, 06:36:30 PM »
On Friday night our group got together and played some battleground.  Earlier that week, when the game night was set, I was planning to play dwarves(yeah, that's right).  So, one night I went into the dwarf faction topic and read all the posts.  One of the older posts said that the Antonian Horsemen also do not suffer penalties for going up hills.  Is this correct?  The rationale given was that the Antionian Horsemen also live in the hills surrounding where the dwarves live and therefore also get the ability.

Marcus said that he never thought they got the bonus because they weren's actually dwarves.  The faction card says "Dwarves get no movement penalty for moving up hill terrain"  Does this mean "Actual dwarves" or "The Dwarf faction"?  It could be taken either way.


I had such a BLAST playing the dwarves.  It was a 4 player game (2 on 2).  I was opposite Marcus and his Dark Elves.  My army consisted of 3 hammermen, 3 axmen, 1 antonians, 2 shortbeards.  Boy did it take a long time to engage.  It would of happened quicker but Marcus first shifted his whole line to his left away from me, then backed his line up when he could. Once the engagement finally happened,  the first problem for him was when a unit of my Shortbeards flat out beat one of his High Blood Blades. Sure I had to play cards or my unit, but I keep making my rout checks and he failed his first one.  Shouldn't of happened, but for some reason my Shortbeards fight like Longbeards....Just ask Kevin.....:) 



Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4671
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2018, 07:50:55 PM »
Marcus said that he never thought they got the bonus because they weren's actually dwarves.  The faction card says "Dwarves get no movement penalty for moving up hill terrain"  Does this mean "Actual dwarves" or "The Dwarf faction"?  It could be taken either way.

I've always taken it as actual dwarves, because it doesn't say "Dwarves of Runeguard units."

gornhorror

  • Rules Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1800
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2018, 10:06:16 PM »
That's what I thought too.   So Antonians going uphill at a 6"MC.  It's not so bad.
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Karasu

  • Playtester
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2018, 09:40:49 AM »
Marcus said that he never thought they got the bonus because they weren's actually dwarves.  The faction card says "Dwarves get no movement penalty for moving up hill terrain"  Does this mean "Actual dwarves" or "The Dwarf faction"?  It could be taken either way.

I've always taken it as actual dwarves, because it doesn't say "Dwarves of Runeguard units."

Where does it say that Antonian horseman aren't Dwarves?  Certainly not in the rules text of the unit, because the race of units is never in rules text.  I was always under the impression that faction abilities apply to all units in the faction, unless the unit specifically says they don't.  The Antonian Horsemen card calls out that they are unable to use the Rune of Uruz but remains silent on the ability to ignore move penalties for hills.

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5157
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2018, 10:39:56 AM »
Where does it say that Antonian horseman aren't Dwarves? 

The artwork for starters.  The Dwarves look like dwarves and the Antonian Horsemen look like humans.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4671
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2018, 01:50:09 PM »
Where does it say that Antonian horseman aren't Dwarves?  Certainly not in the rules text of the unit, because the race of units is never in rules text.  I was always under the impression that faction abilities apply to all units in the faction, unless the unit specifically says they don't.  The Antonian Horsemen card calls out that they are unable to use the Rune of Uruz but remains silent on the ability to ignore move penalties for hills.

I agree it's not clear at all, and frankly I think someone could easily make the point as you have.  However, compare that with Ravenwood where it explicitly states "Elves of Ravenwood units" and not "Elves."  They did that just to drive home that all units in faction (Elf or not) gets the bonus.


The artwork for starters. 

I'd be really leery of using the artwork as precedent for the rules.  It just opens up way too many cans of worms.  I mean someone could look at the Salvaged Terracotta Warriors and say "Look at all those spears in the unit.  That's clearly got to get the Spear bonuses and it must be a typo that they didn't put it in."

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5157
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2018, 04:08:44 PM »
I'd say that artwork is legit for discerning the intent of the faction developer, given that the developer of the faction works directly with the artist.  Similarly, that intent is relevant, since the faction developer put in the prices including any surcharges/discounts.

As to the Salvaged, yeah OK 11 out of 26 of the units on the front of the card have spears and the other 15 don't.  That's still a non-spear majority, and with fractional bonuses not a thing you have to roll with "not a  spear unit."  (Adding that, as implied by the back of the card, a good number of salvaged are missing an arm, or whatever else, suggesting that some % of those with spears aren't getting full use out of their weaponry.)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 04:11:16 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4671
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2018, 04:57:11 PM »
I'd say that artwork is legit for discerning the intent of the faction developer,

Yes, because when we think about art, the entire human species agrees that it is a form of expression lacking any subjectivity whatsoever and in fact there is only ever ONE possible interpretation of the the artist's intent and that intention is completely obvious to the viewer.

 the entire human species easily agrees with the sentiment of "Ah, here's a form


Quote
Similarly, that intent is relevant, since the faction developer put in the prices including any surcharges/discounts.

Yeah and there's never been typos before.  I know you put in the modifiers, and you know you did.  But the average person cracking the box may not know that the proof reading was done properly.


Quote
As to the Salvaged, yeah OK 11 out of 26 of the units on the front of the card have spears and the other 15 don't.  That's still a non-spear majority, and with fractional bonuses not a thing you have to roll with "not a  spear unit."  (Adding that, as implied by the back of the card, a good number of salvaged are missing an arm, or whatever else, suggesting that some % of those with spears aren't getting full use out of their weaponry.)

Spears especially are very visible on the top down, because they have a long profile.  They are usually held pointing towards the front in such a way that we can see the entire length of them.  That attracts the eye and gives them an outsized effect.  This is something to keep in mind when you're doing art direction.  For the same reason any horse models will be visible, which is why people routinely think the Lord of Dusk unit where the center guy is mounted is a cavalry unit.

This is a case of you being too close to the faction when it comes to art design is biasing your opinion.  You designed it, so you KNOW it's not a spear unit.  But the guy who just cracked the box?  He asks me at a demo.  Not that that's ever happened to me.....

Karasu

  • Playtester
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2018, 03:02:33 AM »
Where does it say that Antonian horseman aren't Dwarves?  Certainly not in the rules text of the unit, because the race of units is never in rules text.  I was always under the impression that faction abilities apply to all units in the faction, unless the unit specifically says they don't.  The Antonian Horsemen card calls out that they are unable to use the Rune of Uruz but remains silent on the ability to ignore move penalties for hills.

I agree it's not clear at all, and frankly I think someone could easily make the point as you have.  However, compare that with Ravenwood where it explicitly states "Elves of Ravenwood units" and not "Elves."  They did that just to drive home that all units in faction (Elf or not) gets the bonus.
Who says that any random player is going to have the Elves of Ravenwood army as well as Dwarves of Runeguard?  Or maybe the templating meant that there needed to be some words saved so that the rules could fit it all on the card?
Anyway, I would like to propose that this is a poor way of doing things.  Anything which is relied upon to make a ruling must appear in the rules text somewhere.  If the Antonians are not meant to benefit from better overhill movement, say it on their card.  Make the wording, "does not benefit from Faction Abilities" rather than "Cannot use Rune of Uruz" and, just to avoid doubt, unless there are keywords involved, always refer to the Faction by their full name in their Faction abilities.

Quote
The artwork for starters. 

I'd be really leery of using the artwork as precedent for the rules.  It just opens up way too many cans of worms.  I mean someone could look at the Salvaged Terracotta Warriors and say "Look at all those spears in the unit.  That's clearly got to get the Spear bonuses and it must be a typo that they didn't put it in."

Or, as I would argue in the case of the Antonians, it is a well known fact that humans produce individuals who are exceptionally tall or short for their species.  It would make sense for a group who generally have difficulty riding to recruit their exceptionally tall individuals, known as antonians, into their only cavalry corps.  The art just proves it, since those dwarves are tall enough to ride :).
That's without even bringing up Carrot. :D

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4671
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2018, 09:35:17 AM »
Anyway, I would like to propose that this is a poor way of doing things. 

No argument from me there.  I was just stating that when there is an unclear rule and you want to figure out the writer's intent, the best way to do is to look at other things they have written.

I think an easier way to say it is to limit Sprint and the Hills rules to units that have the Rune of Uruz checkbox.  That way you can achieve the same effect (limiting it to "Dwarves") without adding a mostly empty keyword.

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2018, 02:15:47 PM »
I think an easier way to say it is to limit Sprint and the Hills rules to units that have the Rune of Uruz checkbox.  That way you can achieve the same effect (limiting it to "Dwarves") without adding a mostly empty keyword.

Which reminds me, if we re-release Dwarves we're yanking The Rune from the Balista which can't sprint anyways.  It's like the stupidest unit/ability pairing ever.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch