Author Topic: Dwarf Units and Tactics  (Read 18627 times)

BubblePig

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2011, 12:35:20 AM »
There are a bunch of proposed changes for missile fire that might be official soon, but until that happens ranged units are just a bit underpowered. That doesn't mean you should never take them, but it does usually mean you don't take them without a specific reason for doing so. That is probably why most default builds don't include them.

lazyj

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 11:57:09 AM »
One thing to keep in mind is that your Dwarf units have Average courage as a rule, but most of their Command Cards can give you boosts to both your attack/defense AND courage rolls. So you really want to be choosing wisely about using your Command Actions for things other than pulling cards.

And having just played them, I can tell you that Runeguard is the very definition of "Hammer & Anvil" tactics. Unless you need Antonians for something specific, treat them as the ultimate hammer while something like Axemen, Spearmen or Longbeards are a great anvil on your flank. Swing the horses around that flank after lines engage and watch them just obliterate whoever has the audacity to touch your Dwarf line. This tactic works well with a lot of factions, but the defensive profile of Dwarves and their command cards combined with the amazing speed and charge power of the Antonians makes it even better here.

It will just take once for your opponent to learn about how devastating that is, and then he'll start guarding his flanks better, but always be watching for this opportunity.

Niko White

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 02:18:43 PM »
Yeah, Brook and I share a love-fest for both the Antonians and the Stags.  Both units are great and frankly I'm shocked that more players don't field the Stags.  I'm smelling some more Ravenwood commentary...

I love the Stags too, but I'm increasingly convinced the Centaurs are actually broken by their legacy javelin rule, and they tend to overshadow them.  I mean, granted, they're 109 points more so you can't always afford them, but good as the Stags are the Centaurs are just absurdly brutal.

Antonians are amazing, though, agreed.  They also benefit, compared to the Stags, from the extra movement which allows them to hit 7".  Not all that relevant in the early stages of the game, but it can matter a lot later on, both due to getting where they need to go faster and due to the +1 def. vs missiles.

Hannibal

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 03:14:13 PM »
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I'm increasingly convinced the Centaurs are actually broken by their legacy javelin rule

Really?  Because I've found that the back-up rule nullifies this threat and is the rare case of where you can beat a 380 pt unit with a 180 pt and 200 pt unit.  Put the cheap-o unit up front to eat the charge and when they pop invoke the backup rule.  Then the 200 pt unit can usually grind them down.  In most cases I've found I can do it with a ~100 pt unit and then take a 220-250 pt unit which'll chew through the centaurs.  It leaves me with a net surplus of points.

Niko White

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 05:17:34 PM »
Quote
I'm increasingly convinced the Centaurs are actually broken by their legacy javelin rule

Really?  Because I've found that the back-up rule nullifies this threat and is the rare case of where you can beat a 380 pt unit with a 180 pt and 200 pt unit.  Put the cheap-o unit up front to eat the charge and when they pop invoke the backup rule.  Then the 200 pt unit can usually grind them down.  In most cases I've found I can do it with a ~100 pt unit and then take a 220-250 pt unit which'll chew through the centaurs.  It leaves me with a net surplus of points.

A smart Centaur player might well be able to chew up a normal 100 point unit with the pre-charge javelin throw.  It sometimes works, but it's pretty risky because of the chance of the initial volley routing or killing the first unit.

Also, some factions really have a problem with bringing the right units for that.  I mean, what are you going to double stack as, say, Orcs?  Double goblins?  They're a flat 50% to rout if they get knocked into the yellow by the first volley, which doesn't quite rate it but does with pretty much any card or with Spirit Guidance.  Even leaving that aside an engaged (6) 6/5 just shreds most light units, and 2/2 isn't super tough but a normal attack profile still doesn't rate a lot of damage there.  Then there's also the issue that they're usually on your flanks, so if you're going to double-stack cheap guys to counter them, you need to slow your advance to let them flank out...cheap cavalry certainly won't get it done.

I don't think they're impossible to deal with, but I think they're probably about 20 points under where they should be given they get two initial shots pretty much all the time.  Maybe the idea was that it costs you a CA to get them and that's worth something like 20 points, but I'll admit I'm pretty skeptical.

I don't think they're massively broken, and they're expensive enough that they don't dominate tournaments or anything like that, but I do think they're better than they should be and wouldn't be printed like that today, and that this hurts similar units in-faction, primarily the Stags.

Hannibal

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2011, 05:44:36 PM »
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A smart Centaur player might well be able to chew up a normal 100 point unit with the pre-charge javelin throw.  It sometimes works, but it's pretty risky because of the chance of the initial volley routing or killing the first unit.

That's why I like sliding out that backup unit so that just a corner touches the unit in front.  If the Centaur player stalls and throws javelins, I slide out for a pinch or flank.  It's a bit tricky, but usually if a Centaur is on the field, the Ravenwood player is trying to use it to turn the flank so it's okay if you have to spend a CA or two getting into position.


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Also, some factions really have a problem with bringing the right units for that.  I mean, what are you going to double stack as, say, Orcs?

Orcs are a faction for which that exact plan isn't doable.  If I'm just trying to neutralize the Centaurs I know are showing, I take Goblin Raiders and back up by 2 Crazed Goblins.  The raiders are just there to keep the Crazed Goblins from running ahead.  The raiders die on the charge turn and then with the back up rule, the Crazed Goblins take 6 total turns to die.  You net 71 pts over the Centaurs to put somewhere else, and if you can't win elsewhere in 7 turns, you're not going to.

If I'm trying to win, Goblin Raiders and Wolf Riders for the pinch.  Or 2 Wolf Riders.  That's at worst even and you can gang tackle the centaurs with a pinch.

Most other factions can pull it off.  High Elves are one of the few that lack guys that are either cheap enough to tarpit or a decent ~220 pt melee oriented unit.  The only combo I can think of is maybe a Battle Squad and a Ranger unit.

gull2112

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2011, 09:10:40 PM »
I think the centaurs are fine, even though Niko(?) totally pwned me at TotalCon with them. It wouldn't happen again, at least not in the same way (I'm so much wiser now), and if you throw a centaur in your army then that is your big cheese. I would have put a crazed goblin followed by a Troll. Technically its more points, but essentially it my biggie vs. his.
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Niko White

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2011, 09:36:44 PM »

I'm not saying I want to nerf them or anything, though if Chad decided they deserved to use the new "real" javelin rule I'd also not really try to talk him down.  I'm just saying the fact that they're so high on the power curve makes it less likely I'll take things that compete with them, like Stags.

Hannibal

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2011, 10:32:41 PM »
Yeah but for a similar reason I rarely take Militia over Peasant Mobs.  The Peasants are better at their assigned job.

Niko White

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2011, 11:14:13 PM »

Eh, I sorta like the 2/1 and 11 courage on those guys, they hold up to credible units a lot better.

This is already wildly off topic for the poor Dwarves though :P

RushAss

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2011, 10:52:39 AM »
I like the Miners for some reason.  Perhaps because they're cute.
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lazyj

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2011, 11:18:38 AM »
Well, when you rune the miners and throw a command card on them, they can really provide some unexpected punch. Especially against big angry dudes with high toughness. I like them for that.

Plus it is one of the more thematic units out there with a great backstory.

Niko White

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2011, 12:14:40 PM »
I like the Miners for some reason.  Perhaps because they're cute.

Great against most Undead lists.  They're one of the few units that chews up Zombies and Abominations reasonably well without costing way more.

GoIndy

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Re: Repost: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2013, 01:19:03 PM »
Ok....I've played about 10 billion more games overall since we initially talked about Dwarves, so have some more thoughts.  (Ok, I've played between 10 and 10 billion anyway)

My opinion on the Longbeards is way up from my initial thought....provided they don't rout.  Longbeards to me are like reverse ghouls...you kind of presume they won't rout and when they do, you're generally screwed. 

Dwarven militia are flat out awesome. 

Miners...I'll tell you who miners are awesome against, the Wuxing.  When you compare how awesome they are against Wuxing, compared to what comes back at you, holy smokes. 

Hydra....wait, this isn't a dwarven unit?  Should be!!  The dwarves dug too deep!!

RushAss

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Re: Dwarf Units and Tactics
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2016, 09:22:52 AM »
OK then.  You wind up with the Kingdoms map with the river running through the middle of it and the bridge in the center.  As the Dwarven player, what are the odds that you just stand and shoot?
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Learning that we're only immortal for a limited time"
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