Author Topic: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)  (Read 31434 times)

gornhorror

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2011, 10:06:36 PM »
Funny you said that.  We would of stayed there forever if Marcus hadn't said to just roll a die.   ;D ;D ;D
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gornhorror

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2011, 09:54:57 AM »
Is there any word on the Trolls being able to regenerate into the green from the red?  I forget if this was ruled upon.
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BubblePig

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2011, 10:50:23 AM »
Is there any word on the Trolls being able to regenerate into the green from the red?  I forget if this was ruled upon.
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gornhorror

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2011, 12:24:02 PM »
Thanks man.
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iamJMAN00793

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2011, 11:56:32 PM »
I don't like the Orcs. Maybe it's just me but they seem to expensive for what you get! Plus, they don't have any good archers.
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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2011, 07:27:37 AM »
I don't like the Orcs. Maybe it's just me but they seem to expensive for what you get! Plus, they don't have any good archers.
Orcs are like Dwarves on Crack.

Unless you have specific need for speed, leave the trolls in the box and bring the Marauders. Everybody complains about Orc morale, but I don't have a problem with that as I consistently roll just what I need. The Goblin Bombchucker is just plain awesome! There are the technicians in the group who don't like the variability (occasional doubles or just low rolls), but I find I almost always get my money's worth for them and they are very dramatic.

The command cards are another big reason to take the orcs. Frenzy is so good they had to put in a special rule that you can only play one per unit as wolf riders getting 12 attacks (13 with lash) was just too horrifying.

And while we're talking about wolf riders, the only caution about them is that with six attacks, it is easy to forget that they are light cavalry, and people (myself included) try to do the heavy lifting with them.

The orcs have more missile troops choices than they need. I never take the goblin bowmen because the orcs don't need missile troops, but if I want to show my love from a distance I have the bombchucker. The Bombchucker is what the Umenzi Great War Elephant would be if they made it a paratrooper, and for 100's less!
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gornhorror

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2011, 10:04:00 AM »
The orcs are awesome if you like offense and flavor.  I agree with Gull in that even though they have bad courage it doesn't stop me from playing them once in a while.  Also, I think their faction ability is one of the best int the game.  added hit dice, longer range, and the ability to also play a command card is just too good.  That's exactly what I like.  Factions that have strengths AND weaknesses.  It just makes the game fun. 
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Niko White

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2011, 01:13:27 PM »

Yeah, Orcs are crazy dudes with axes and I love it.  They don't really tank as well as you'd expect from plate and shield dudes (at least in large part because they have literally no purple cards in their faction uniques so are less likely to draw defense than virtually any other faction) but they aren't going to get embarrassed by worthless chumps that often and they can explode out of nowhere to kill people which is great.  Lash, as noted, is awesome, so long as you get that you aren't going to use it more than a handful of times per game.  Using it just for the +1 die is usually (though not quite universally) awful, but getting that extra inch can be breaking.

They need a decent understanding of the lash and you have to accept that from time to time they'll just randomly decide to run away from some dude for no good reason, but...they're Orcs, what did you expect?

Also, on a tangential note, they have a bunch of command cards that you really want early in the game, so buying a few command cards isn't that terrible if you can budget for it.

Hannibal

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2011, 02:04:47 PM »
Orcs are a fun faction but they are a bit riskier to play because they don't have a lot of Courage boosters (and no, I Kill You Meself isn't enough. Although it is a great card, there still is only 2 of them in the deck). 

Lash is a great ability, but the key is to remember its really an MC boost with an attack cookie.  Once you're engaged, you shouldn't use it.  Ever.  Which is okay because the Orc command cards are good.  My one gripe on them is that I dislike cards that require a Command Action to play.  This menas you should draw your command cards one at a time.  Because if you decide to draw CCs with all your CAs, then grab 4 at once only to find the second card is a really good card that requires a CA, then its basically a dead card.

I'll be cute and break down the Orc units into the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.


The Good
(i.e. build your army around these cards)

Goblin Bowmen:  some folks think they're no good, but that really depends on what you're trying to do.  If you want super-accurate sniper like shooting...play elves.  Seriously.  But if you want Walmart shooting (i.e. points spent on shooting and nothing else) then these are your guys.  They have the majority of points spent on their shooting dice, with minimal points spent on things like defense, courage, hit boxes, etc.

Goblin Raiders + Crazed Goblins:  I pair these two unit types because they are better than the sum of their parts.  I run them in a trio of 2 Goblin Raiders backed up by a single Crazed Goblin unit.  This combo is ~100 pts cheaper than 2 Orc Swordsmen units and can give you similar tankyness.  If you're facing someone who's fielding a lot of 150-200 pt units, this combo will hold the line for you for some time.

Orc Swordsmen:  Tanks for when someone is putting out 200+ units, that would eat your Raiders+Crazed Gobbos as a snack. A lot of people poo-poo their Cge 12, but they're still a pretty decent tank even with that.  My usual default build is 2 Orc Swordsmen for the relatively heavy hitters and 2 Goblin Raiders+Crazed Gobbos for the chump troops.

Goblin Wolf Riders:  IMO, the best unit in the faction due to cost vs effectiveness.  They're cheap and hit like a dropped building.  These guys are usually the hammer in my default build to the anvil I mentioned above.  In that role, I usually take 2 and have them run on the same flank.  The first one is going to die horribly, leaving the second one to either clean up the weakened enemy or (if the enemy is destroyed) start rolling up the flank.  If they're taken as flank defenders, I'll take 1 and hold them back, just daring someone to charge the flank of my line.  Because with Lash, the Wolf Riders are AT&T (i.e. able to reach out and touch anyone).

Orc Axemen:  Oh my lord these guys are sweet.  I still say Wolf Riders are the best unit in the faction, but these guys are a close second.  They're you're infantry breakthrough unit.  Nuff said.



The Bad
(i.e. leave them in the box)

Goblin Bomb Chucker:  Some people love this unit, and I really want to love them as well, but I just can't.  The Extreme range penalty combined with the no command cards just kills this unit.  As is, its basically just a way to suck command cards off your opponent, with him playing Parry and such to deal with the occasional lucky number of shots.  But 300 pts is just too expensive for that role, even if I was doing a stand and shoot.  Now, if you love this unit, then by all means take it, but understand it's not really a good use of points.  (not that that's every stopped me before  8) )  If this unit was changed so that it treated Extreme Range as Long range, then I'd reassess my opinion of it.

Trolls:  Wow what a craptastic unit.  Even with the current stamp that it can regenerate into the Green from the Red, it's still a stay-in-the-box unit, which is sad because its a borderline iconic unit.  The problem is that even with its high Courage it's still going to fail its 2nd rout check half the time.  That means you're going to have 5-6 Red boxes that never get used.  On most units, 1-3 unused red boxes isn't a big deal, but on this guy that is.  Functionally, this unit becomes an 8 hit box unit and while its defensive stats look good, a Def 1/3 is only marginally better than a Def 2/2.

The Green-and-Red hit box idea IMO is just a failed experiment.  It leaves too many Red boxes unused and the unit can go from 5 dice to 3 pretty quickly on what is supposed to be a breakthrough unit.  I once ran an experiment where I costed out the unit at 5G 5Y 4R and it ended up coming in at like 5 pts more, for much more survivability.  Now, the unit is taking its second cge check after 10 boxes instead of 8.  Those 2 boxes means 2 extra turns of fighting, which is a big deal.  With that tweak, and removing the stamp on regeneration, the unit comes close to being worth it.



The Ugly
(i.e. situationally useful)

Orc Marauders:  I'm sure I hear folks howling that I've been hitting the crack pipe again, but I'll be honest:  I don't think this unit is an "always take it."  Oh yeah this guy is beefy, with loads of attacks, a great offensive skill, and a study Def 2/3.  But I don't think its worth paying the extra 67 pts in every case.  In most cases, Marauders and Axemen put out comparable amounts of damage.  So really what you're paying for is the Def 2.  And, IMO, if you're taking Orcs you already have a gambler's mentality with the fact that your tanks are Cge 12 and you only have 2 courage cards in the deck.  So I'm not gonna hedge and spend points on defense when I can save a few points and go for more offense.

However, when I'm playing a fragile/skill faction, these guys come out.  They're almost tailor made for going up against Elves, who usually have a combination of high skill and low-to-medium toughness and not a lot of damage boxes, but also have high offensive skill themselves.  In that case, it's worth spending the 67 pts for that extra survivability to grind out against those Elder Blade High Elves.  And thus, when a unit has times when you take 'em and times when you leave 'em in the box, that puts them in this category.  With the caveat that they move into The Good depending on your opponent.

Orc Crossbowmen:  If I plan to take a close & hose army, I usually leave these guys in the box.  Yeah they're Pow 6, which is good vs high toughness guys, but then that crossbow attack is less useful.  At which point I'll pay the extra 10% for the Axemen.  However, if I'm playing with some terrain one which I plan to anchor my line, these guys can nab the terrain and shoot while the enemy tries to take that hill from me.  Or if I'm building a stand and shoot list, at which point these guys are great buys.  They are useful, if a bit tricky and a bit un-Orcy to use, but their useful is more about what is on the table and/or what you plan to do than their inherent value.

Orc Spearmen:  I use Orc swordsmen as a tank unit, and this guy is getting expensive enough that he has to start doing some killing to be worth it.  If I know my opponent is going to take some beefy monster or cavalry, then these guys are awesome flank protectors.  Otherwise, they're something I upgrade my Swordsmen to if I have the spare points.  Still good, mind you, just not the first thing I grab when I build a list.

Goblin Spearmen:  Whereas the Marauders border on being in The Good category, these guys border on being in The Bad group.  Goblins are there to die and spending more than you have to strikes me as sending good points after bad.  Still, it is only 17 pts for that extra attack and so I do sometimes upgrade if I have less than 25 pts remaining.  More than that and I'll pick up a card or upgrade Orc swordsmen to spearmen.  Its rare that I'd upgrade this unit, but on the flip side, they can put a hurt on heavy cavalry.  But really, these guys usually stay in the box unless I'm in a unique "I have 17 pts left over" situation or I know my opponent has lots of light cavalry that will be charging my for some fool reason.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 09:15:17 AM by Hannibal »

RushAss

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2011, 02:22:01 PM »
Plus, they don't have any good archers.
Goblin Bowmen are actually the best in the game for the points from a damage standpoint.  Look at Hawksold Bowmen.  They have a better defensive stat, higher courage (with the ability to boost it even more), and more hit boxes at 165 points vs. 146 points for the Goblins.  Fair enough.  But when I put archery down I normally don't care about those things because most of the time if it comes down to how well your archers stand up in hand to hand combat, they are hosed anyways.  I want the (4) 5/5 ranged attack stat and I'm paying only 146 points for that in the Goblins where as I', paying 165 points for it in the Hawks.  If you look at it that way, Orc, Undead, and even Dwarven standard archery are actually a good deal.  

There are 2 problems I see with the Orcs.

1 - If you are going for a full 6-7 unit line and enough auxiliary units not to get yourself pinched early on, you are going to have to put at least 1 or 2 Goblin line troops out there and they are about as dependable as a fishnet condom.  Yes they do standard attack damage for an incredibly low price, but their shabby defensive stats and hideous courage makes them a serious liability.

2 - As some have mentioned, their over all courage is an issue.  I Kill You Meself is a great card, but you'll usually only draw one of them per game and that's not much help compared to the flood of courage failures you can potentially suffer playing the Orcs.  Only the expensive units have a 13 courage and nobody has a 14 in the faction.  I will confess that I am a bit shell shocked by courage failures as historically my troops tend to route more often than my opponents (see literally every other report I have ever posted - LOL) and playing the faction with the worst ever courage only exasperates this.  At least for me.  

Still, I like the faction and I always have a blast when I play them.  Of the 1st 3 factions (Hawkshold and Undead being the other 2) I think the Orcs are probably the one that had the least amount of errata and balance issues.  Plus, I'm a sucker for heavy infantry types and the Orcs have them in both quality and quantity.  

Edit:  Hannibal posted as I was composing this and you can see we're on the same page about the Goblin Bowmen.  Wal Mart archery indeed!

The Good
(i.e. build your army around these cards)

Goblin Wolf Riders:  IMO, the best unit in the faction due to cost vs effectiveness.  They're cheap and hit like a dropped building.  These guys are usually the hammer in my default build to the anvil I mentioned above.  In that role, I usually take 2 and have them run on the same flank.  The first one is going to die horribly, leaving the second one to either clean up the weakened enemy or (if the enemy is destroyed) start rolling up the flank.  If they're taken as flank defenders, I'll take 1 and hold them back, just daring someone to charge the flank of my line.  Because with Lash, the Wolf Riders are AT&T (i.e. able to reach out and touch anyone).

Orc Axemen:  Oh my lord these guys are sweet.  I still say Wolf Riders are the best unit in the faction, but these guys are a close second.  They're you're infantry breakthrough unit.  Nuff said.
Actually, I'm so strongly in agreement with these points that I thought they should be repeated ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 02:27:32 PM by RushAss »
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iamJMAN00793

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2011, 03:19:11 PM »
These are all fair pionts. Perhaps I should continue to give these guys a shot.
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gornhorror

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2012, 12:21:06 AM »
What units are elite in the Orc faction again?  Is it the Trolls and the Bomb Chucker?  Or are Marauders elite too?
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Niko White

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2012, 02:17:22 AM »

Just trolls and chucker.

gornhorror

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2012, 09:12:36 PM »
Thanks. 
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BubblePig

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Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2012, 02:03:34 PM »
I moved the discussion on rule variants for Trolls etc. to a new topic: Large Units, Red/Green Units