Author Topic: Historical set; The Imjin War  (Read 8489 times)

leemie

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Historical set; The Imjin War
« on: February 21, 2013, 10:19:58 AM »
I have been doing some reading on the subject, and I think that this war could make a good historical set, aside from difficulty making the 3D models. However people making mods for games like Total war may have good starting points.  

here is the wiki link for quick history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War

I will post a summary of weapons and tactics used, as well as potential scenario battles from my books when I get some time.

The only problem I see is that the war is Japan vs [ Korea + China ]. Korea and China could be made into a single army but they are quite different so I made them separate in my draft.

Updated October 2014
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3EZFz4idnPHTjFkX05PMlJhQTA/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3EZFz4idnPHM3RaTDFoNmRTWEk/view?usp=sharing



« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 12:56:45 AM by leemie »

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 10:26:11 AM »

Thranduil

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 11:00:22 PM »
This is a really cool idea for a historical set.  What sources have you been reading/ would you suggest?  Have you read Samuel Hawley's book?

In general I don't like the idea of guns in Battleground (or any fantasy setting for that matter) but the Imjin War seems like it could be a good fit. 

Some comments on the Japanese abilities:

I really like the Honor ability and I think the Shoei should have some Honor.  (did the fighting monks have no Honor??)

Also I like the Samurai dice changing ability but wonder if more of the Samurai should have it.  Is it to powerful?  How does it compare to Ravenwood Net ability or Wuxing Reliable ability.  How much should it cost?  Maybe it should only be for attacking, or only defending but not both.  Nets and Reliable only come into play on the attack to hit die.  Maybe this Samurai skill should work in the same way (modifying hit die) so as to not give or stop damage outright - just hits.  What happens if the dice are rerolled after a change has been made?

more thoughts soon...

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 03:10:36 AM »
This is a really cool idea for a historical set.  What sources have you been reading/ would you suggest?  Have you read Samuel Hawley's book?
I havn't read his book, but it looks good. I've been reading Osprey, and Stephen Turnbull since that is what my library has.

In general I don't like the idea of guns in Battleground (or any fantasy setting for that matter) but the Imjin War seems like it could be a good fit. 
I agree. The guns are not so much better than bows at this point in history as to make the game boring.



I really like the Honor ability and I think the Shoei should have some Honor.  (did the fighting monks have no Honor??)

Also I like the Samurai dice changing ability but wonder if more of the Samurai should have it.  Is it to powerful?  How does it compare to Ravenwood Net ability or Wuxing Reliable ability.  How much should it cost?  Maybe it should only be for attacking, or only defending but not both.  Nets and Reliable only come into play on the attack to hit die.  Maybe this Samurai skill should work in the same way (modifying hit die) so as to not give or stop damage outright - just hits.  What happens if the dice are rerolled after a change has been made?

more thoughts soon...
Maybe the shoei should have honor; they are not honor bound to a lord however. I gave the katana wielding samurai the ability to represent their martial prowess with the sword without raising their power or skill. The bonus is meant to apply once when attacking [either to hit or to wound] and once when defending [ to hit or to wound]. It would make the ability simpler to apply only to hits or only to wounds but would make it less versatile. If the dice are re-rolled I would say you can lower another die. Really this ability could go in a couple different directions.

Hannibal

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 10:34:20 AM »
If I may jump in and be a historical pedant for a moment:

Quote
I agree. The guns are not so much better than bows at this point in history as to make the game boring.

This is very true.  One of the things that bugs me is conception among modern thought that "guns ended the age of knights."  This is so massively not true, and what is annoying is you see this misconception furthered on supposedly educational shows like the History Channel (aka "the aliens & WWII channel").

For the longest time bullets would bounce off heavy armor.  There's a reason cuirassiers (a guy who wears an armored cuirass, or torso armor) wore armor as late as the Napoleonic Wars. 

What killed the armored cavalry was the pikeman.  Pure and simple.


On the subject of the faction:  I really like it.  I'd always wondered if there was a way to do samurai in a historical sense.  Very nicely done.

Torrg

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 04:25:17 PM »
Leemie I think you have a brilliant idea and this would be a great subject to have expanded for a little known (by the west) war fought, not to mention you did a really good job on the Japanese and Korean's.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 06:08:38 PM »
Leemie I think you have a brilliant idea and this would be a great subject to have expanded for a little known (by the west) war fought, not to mention you did a really good job on the Japanese and Korean's.

Thanks. It's not perfect, but I think it is a good starting point for those armies. I still need command cards though. For Japan I was thinking something like

Swift strike: red  play before rolling to hit (+1) +0/+0 your opponent may not play blue command cards.

Perfect counter blue:  Play after your opponent plays a red card, discard that card. or prevent one damage this attack and deal one damage to the attacking unit

in yo (red/blue)  (+1) +1/+0 or enemy loses one die and +1/+0.

banzai green: play in m and c phase Three units gain (+1) +0/+0. these units gain fearsome this turn.

tempered steel red:  something
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 07:54:22 PM by leemie »

Torrg

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 12:28:47 AM »
Thanks. It's not perfect, but I think it is a good starting point for those armies. I still need command cards though. For Japan I was thinking something like

Swift strike: red  play before rolling to hit (+1) +0/+0 your opponent may not play blue command cards.

Perfect counter blue:  Play after your opponent plays a red card, discard that card. or prevent one damage this attack and deal one damage to the attacking unit

in yo (red/blue)  (+1) +1/+0 or enemy loses one die and +1/+0.

banzai green: play in m and c phase Three units gain (+1) +0/+0. these units gain fearsome this turn.

tempered steel red:  something

I think you could include a quote from the book of five rings or Hagakure, maybe some Calligraphy if I remember correctly it symbolized sword strokes and steadiness?

I do hope this gets endorsement! I want Samurai...
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 01:39:07 AM »
I own both of those: I'll have to go through them and find some good quotes.

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 02:00:09 AM »
Thoughts on command cards for samurai.


a red card that stop opponents from playing cards: “If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you”
 Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings: The Classic Guide to Strategy


a blue card that cancels a red card: “The important thing in strategy is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions”
 Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings: The Classic Guide to Strategy


a green card that gives several units fearsome and a small bonus: “When you decide to attack, keep calm and dash in quickly, forestalling the enemy...attack with a feeling of constantly crushing the enemy, from first to last.”
 Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings: The Classic Guide to Strategy

I have found that the Way of the samurai is death. This means that when you are compelled to choose between life and death, you must quickly choose death. – hagakure

I like the idea of this card since the Japanese will be packaged with the Koreans. Koreans were often fearful of the japanese charges.


a red and blue card: in yo [the Japanese equivalent on yin yang] :
“If you wish to control others you must first control yourself”
Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings: The Classic Guide to Strategy

“Summer grasses,
All that remains
Of soldiers' dreams”
 Matsuo Bash


Green card involving moral:
re-roll a courage check, this unit gains +2 honor.  “The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight, and the only reason a warrior fights is to win”
 Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings: The Classic Guide to Strategy

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 02:04:17 AM by leemie »

Niko White

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 02:06:11 AM »
This is a neat idea.

FYI, we are already going to have guns in Battleground, though very early ones - the next historical set after Alexander is New World (Spain vs Aztecs/Mexica), which I am design lead for.  It isn't up on the forums for various reasons relating to the design process not being as open as is now when I started it and also that until recently it looked like it was so far from publication that it's mostly been sitting in a 75%-90% done state on my hard drive.

Assuming the kickstarter goes well, though, Chad wants to move on it sooner than later, so I'm going to set it back up soon and it should be here in the near future.  I'm certainly of the opinion that Battleground would be a fine system up until Napoleon; guns took a long time to become good enough to have tactical superiority over archery.  

Early adoption was based mostly on factors like ease of use.  Even in the Revolutionary War and other early New World fights, an individual Iroquois or similar Native warrior was far more deadly with a bow than a single European soldier with a musket in every way - individual arrows were more accurate, more deadly, fired far faster, were far more reliable, and didn't give away your position by making a huge amount of noise and smoke.  (This was less true of the Aztecs because their bows and arrows were pretty weak comparatively, and their best soldiers all fought in melee for cultural reasons.)  Bow users, especially skilled bow users, tended to wipe the floor with gun users on an individual basis until, at the earliest, the development of rifled barrels.  Unfortunately for the bow, skilled bow users took decades to train and required monstrous upper body strength, whereas you can become competent with a gun via crash course despite being an underfed conscript, and underfed conscripts with guns they know how to load and aim will definitely kill enough bow masters that the enemy will run out of them before you run out of guns and conscripts, if you're an urban society.  The triumph of the gun is about the triumph of urban societies over rural ones; the actual individual superiority of gunpowder weapons came after that fight was already long over.

Kevin

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 09:25:00 AM »
Here's my 2 cents

Quote
Swift strike: red  play before rolling to hit (+1) +0/+0 your opponent may not play blue command cards.

Probably OK.  The bonus looks weak, but is really good on Charging cavalry.  Guessing more often than not it will be disappointing to draw.  One thing you could do is give the player a choice of the above (with no cards by the opponent) or a regular Strike (with cards allowed.)


Quote
Perfect counter blue:  Play after your opponent plays a red card, discard that card. or prevent one damage this attack and deal one damage to the attacking unit

I like the first function, but the second function is way too powerful.  A command card typically is worth a single point, and that's worth two.  What if you made this card a red/blue card so that it could counter either way?  That or keep it blue, but allow a "cycling" option.  (= discard to draw a card).


Quote
in yo (red/blue)  (+1) +1/+0 or enemy loses one die and +1/+0.

A good card.  Given the new versions of Hawkshold Attack Formation (Strike or Might), Hawkshold Defensive Formation (Parry or Hardness) and Lizardmen Saurian Fury (Might or Hardness), this one completes the pattern.

Quote
banzai green: play in m and c phase Three units gain (+1) +0/+0. these units gain fearsome this turn.

I like the flavor, but there are two problems with this card.  ONe is that it's unambiguously better than the perfectly respectable High Elf Attack Storm card, which gives the same effect without fearsome.  The other thing is that Fearsome only makes a difference if a unit is charging, so it becomes irrelevant once lines have hit.

What about....

Quote
Banzai (green).  Play during the Movement and Command Phase.  Choose up to two of your engaged units to get (+1) +0/+0.  One enemy unit which is engaged with each of these must make an immediate fear check.

 tempered steel red:  something

Just spitballing here...

Quote
Play during an attack, before rolling to hit, on a unit which is neither charging nor being charged.  Your unit gets (-1) +1/+2.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 09:29:40 AM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 02:23:27 PM »
Honor (X): units with honor are likely to fight on even if some of their bretheren flee. A units honor is displayed next to its courage. If a unit would fail a rout check with its regular courage but can pass by adding its honor, the unit passes the courage check and instead takes damage equal to the amount it would have failed by. this damage does not cause further courage checks.   

War Trophies:
 Each unit contains a number of head boxes equal to its honor.
When one of your units destroys an engaged enemy unit  or makes free attacks against a non skirmisher, mark one of the units boxes.

When rolling to attack you may uncheck a war trophy box to re-roll a die (does not count as a command card)
When charging or being charged may uncheck a box to gain fearsome                                                                                    

Command cards.
Swift strike: red  play before rolling to hit (+1) +0/+0 your opponent may not play blue command cards. or (+1) +0/+1 “If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you”
 
Perfect counter blue/green:  Play after your opponent plays a red card, discard that card. or play during your move and control phase to draw any one blue card from your deck. “The important thing in strategy is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless ones”  

Banzai Green :Play during any move and command phase. Choose three of your units to either gain    (+1) 0/0 or Fearsome. “When you decide to attack, keep calm and dash in quickly, forestalling the enemy...attack with a feeling of constantly crushing the enemy, from first to last.”

in yo (red/blue)  (+1) +1/+0 OR enemy loses one die and +1/+0. “If you wish to control others you must first control yourself”

Honor bound: (Green) re-roll a courage check, this unit gains +2 honor. “I have found that the Way of the samurai is death. This means that when you are compelled to choose between life and death, you must quickly choose death.” – hagakure

Units: Japan: Toyotomi Hideyoshi

Core
    
Ashigaru warriors    (6) 4/5    1/2   N/A   12(+1)   3.5"   4/3/3
Honor (1) (-1) 0/0 when charging    (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large
equipment: trident, flail, sword, naginata, short spear, other

Ashigau Nagae-yari
   (7) 5/5    1/2   N/A   12 (+1)   3.5"   4/3/3
Honor (1),  (-2) -0/-0 when charging. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large,  +1/+0 vs calv/large   
                                       
Ashigaru Yumi   (4) 5/5    1/1   14''   12 (+1)   3.5"   3/2/2
Honor (1),  -2/-2 in cc                  
                        
Front line Ashigaru teppo   (5) 4/7   1/1   14''    12(+1)   3.5"   3/3/2
  attack is line of sight.  unnerving. (-0) -0/-1 at long range,
 (4)4/5 when engaged. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large.

Ashigaru teppo   (5) 4/7   1/1   14''    12(+1)   3.5"   3/2/1
  attack is line of sight.  unnerving. (-0) -0/-1 at long range,
skirmisher  (4) 3/3 engaged


Standard                                       


Samurai yari   (6) 6/5    2/3   N/A    13 (+2)   3.5"      4/2/3
Honor (2), (-1) -0/-0 when charging. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large                                                
                              
Samurai Bow.   (4) 6/5   2/2   14''    13(+2)   3.5''    4/2/2
Honor (2).   (4) 6/5 when engaged                                              
                                          
Samurai Yari Calv   ( 6) 6/5    2/3    N/A   13(+2)    6''    3/2/2
Cavalry. Honor (2). (+0) +0/+1 , +1/+0 when charging.   

Samurai Katana Cavalry  (5) 6/6  2/3  N/A  13(+2)  6''  3/3/2
Honor (2). 3.5'' final rush. +1/+0 vs range.

Samurai Bow Calv (4) 6/5    2/2   10.5''    13(+2)    6''   3/2/1
Cavalry. Honor (2),  +1/+0 when charging.   ranged attack is line of sight.                                             

                                                                                       
Elite:
                                                                     
Master Samurai    (5) 6/6   2/3   N/A   13(+3)   3.5''   4/3/2
Honor 3.  Autopass fear and terror. Each turn may select
to give this unit (+2) 0/-1 for the duration of the turn.


Kakae zutsu
(samurai hand cannon) : (4) 5/7   2/3  10.5''  13(+2) 3.5''  3/3/1
unnerving. attack is line of sight.  (3) 6/5   when engaged.

Alternate hand cannon:  (4)  5/6       2/3    14''    13(+2)   3.5''   3/2/1
unnerving.  (3) 6/5 when engaged

based on "Because they are launched from hand-held arquebuses, fire rockets are much more mobile than siege weapons. However, they are less powerful and accurate than cannons, and are not used to batter down the walls of a castle. Instead they fire over the top of walls: the rockets' high arc and long range lets them rain down on the enemy below, setting buildings alight, sowing panic and destroying morale in the process."







« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 10:37:45 AM by leemie »

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 02:51:57 PM »
Army ability: The art of war:
At the end of your turn you may discard any number of command cards from your hand to draw the same number.
you may spend a command action to place a card from your discard on top of your deck.  
                  
Check box abilities: spend a command point to check, If the unit routs or becomes disordered uncheck the box.

Fire arrows: Gives the units ranged attacks “unnerving”.

Explosive arrows: When attacking with a unit that has fire arrows you may uncheck the box to give explosive arrows granting an additional (0) 0/+1 this counts as playing a command card.


Unnerving: units that take damage from an unnerving weapon are at -1 courage for the turn.

Vassal (Choson Korea): You may take 1/4 of your army from the Choson list. These units do not count towards core requirements. Unorganized command no longer applies to these units.


Cards:

1.   Reinforce: green. Play during a move and command phase. Heal a unit by one damage. If it is healed out of yellow or red it gains +3 courage this turn.

2.   Supplies: green. Draw two command cards at the start of your next turn

3.   Fortune green (red/blue/green): re-roll any roll.

4.   Black power Grenade. (Red): play before rolling to attack. Your unit is at (-1) -0/-0. Deal one damage to the
opponent, they are at -1 courage this turn.

5.   Strategic formation red/blue: play on a unit that is not charging this turn. It gains (+0) +1/+0 or (+0) +0/+1
OR +1/+0 or +0/+1



Units: Ming China: Li Rusong  
                                     
Core:

Light sword and shield:   (5) 5/5   2/1   N/A   12   3.5"   4/3/3
        
                                      
spear/glaive   (6) 5/5   1/1   N/A   12   3.5"   4/3/3
 (-2) -0/-0 when charging. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large  
      
Mini crossbow or bow light calv. (4) 5/5    2/0   10.5''   12   7''   3/1/2
Cavalry.  +1/+0 when charging.  
                                      
Light spear/ glaive cavalry: (5) 5/5  2/1  --  12  7’’  3/2/1
Cavalry. (+0) +0/+1 and +1/+0 when charging.


heavy crossbow   (3) 5/6    1/1   14''   12   3.5''   3/3/2
 (4) 4/4  in cc      ranged attack is line of sight.

 long bows   (4) 5/5    1/ 1   14''   12   3.5"   3/2/2
(-0) -2/-2 in cc. Fire arrows.  

  
Standard:                                          
repeating crossbow    (6) 5/4   1/2   10.5''   12   3.5"   3/3/2
(4) 4/4 in cc. direct fire.
                                            
heavy glaive cavalry   (6) 6/5    2/3   N/A   13   5''   3/2/2
Cavalry. (+0) +0/+1 and +1/+0 when charging.  

                                            
tribarreled stick gun    (4) 5/6    1/1    7''   12   3.5''   3/4/1
(0) -1/-0 when engaged. Unnerving ranged attack. May only make three shots a game.  ranged attack is line of sight.

Long swordsmen: (5) 5/6  1/1  --  12  3.5’’  4/4/2


heavy halberd infantry   (6*) 6/6   1/3   N/A   13   2.5''   4/4/2
 (-2) -0/-0 when charging. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+1 if holding vs charging cavalry/large

                  
Elite:
                          
Great distance Cannon.   (3) 6/7    1/2   21''   12   2.5''   3/1/2
(3) 4/4 in close combat. ranged attack is line of sight..   Move or shoot.   Unnerving.

                                                                                      
Frankish Gun   (4) 6/6   1/2   17.5   12   2.5''   3/1/2
(3) 4/4 in close combat. ranged attack is line of sight..   Move or Shoot.   Unnerving.


Rocket box infantry (hand held hwacha): (d6+2)  5/5  1/1  10.5''  12  3/3/2
 (5) 3/3 when engaged. unnerving. ranged attack is line of sight at short range.
 When rolling for number of attacks on a  6 this unit takes one damage. no red command cards.




video of triple barrel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXkUA0KFNY
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 10:47:35 AM by leemie »

leemie

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Re: Historical set; The Imjin War
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 04:44:54 PM »
                                    
Army abilities:
Unorganized Command: Non Calvary units take two command actions to rally.  

Vassal (Ming): You may take 1/4 of your army from the Ming list. These units do not count towards core requirements. Unorganized command still applies to these units.

      
                                                        

Command Cards:

Second wind (Green): Play during your move and command phase. target unit takes a courage check if it passes rally it and it heals one damage. If it fails return this card to your hand at the end of your turn.

Loose organization: Green: play on two of your units that are touching eachother. Switch their positions. You may deal one damage to either unit to heal one damage on the other, this does not cause rout checks.

Zeal: green: Play after one of your units takes a courage check. Change one die to a 3.

disarray: (Green) Play when one of your non disrupted infantry units would rout, it becomes disrupted instead.

Resistance: Green:  Play on a unit that is not charging this turn. Prevent one hit against this unit this turn. this unit gains one impact hit. You may not play red or blue cards on this unit this turn.


Core
                                            
righteous army (volunteer peasants)   (5) 4/4   1/0   N/A   12   3.5"   3/4/2
(+0) +1/+0 vs cav and large.      

Warrior Monks  (6) 5/5   2/0   *  12   3.5''   3/4/3
(-1) -0/-0 when charging. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large  
(4)  6/5 ranged attack                                        
                                                
archers   (4) 6/5   1/0   14''   11   3.5"   3/2/1
Fire Arrows.   (-0) -3/-2 if engaged  
                                  
spears/glaives   (6) 4/5   1/0   N/A   11   3.5"   3/4/2
  (-1) -0/-0 when charging. (+0) +1/+0 vs large/cavalry. (+0) +0/+2 if holding vs charging cavalry/large      

  Standard:                                      
      
flail calv   (5) 5/5    2/2    *  12   6''   3/2/2
Cavalry. (+0) +1/+0 vs non calv non large. (+0) +0/+1 and  +1/+0 when charging. (4) 6/5  14’’ ranged attack

Long spear cavalry  (6) 5/5  2/2  *  6’’  3/2/2
Cavalry. (+0) +0/+1 and  +1/+0 when charging. (4) 6/5  14’’ ranged attack
                                            
calv archers    (4) 6/5      2/0   14''   12   6''   3/2/1
Cavalry.  +1/+0 when charging.  

                                    
Chongtong (gun stick)   (5)   4/6   1/0   10.5''   11   3.5''   3/2/1
unnerving. (-1) -0/-1 at long range. (4) 3/3 when engaged.    ranged attack is line of sight.                                

 Elite glaive infantry: (5) 5/6  1/2  -  12  3.5’’
(0) +1/+0 vs large.

Elite archers  (5) 6/5  1/2  17.5’’   12  3.5’’
Fire arrows. (5) 5/5 when engaged.
                                      

Elite
                                
mortar (4) 6/6      1/1    14''   11   2.5''   3/1/2
(3) 4/4 in close combat.   Move or shoot.  

arrow battery   (d6+6) 4/5    1/1    17.5''   11   2.5''   3   1   2
Fire arrows. ranged attack is line of sight only at short range. No command cards.   move or shoot. when rolling for attacks on a 5 or 6 takes one damage.  (3) 4/4 when engaged.

Captured harquebuses:  (5) 4/7*   1/1   10.5''   11   3.5"   3/2/1
  ranged attack is line of sight.. unnerving. (-1) -0/-1 at long range.  (4) 3/3 in cc
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:53:13 AM by leemie »