Author Topic: Playtest Proxies  (Read 7378 times)

gornhorror

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 08:45:32 PM »
Ok Corey.  I hope you are right. I really do.  

I do understand that more expensive units should win their fights against lesser units.  I am in agreement with you on that one.  What I'm worried about is how fast they are going to win.

I think phalanxes are a cool addition to battleground and I think EITHER increased hit dice or increased green boxes would represent them well, but I'm worried about those units having both.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 11:05:55 PM by gornhorror »
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Hannibal

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2014, 10:59:54 PM »
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and the penalties for the phalynx(not spell correctly,   ;D) are severe but they wont come up enough to balance it out.

I disagree.  Any terrain means that Phalanxes lose 1 die and the impact hit.  It's flat out negating 30 of those 254pts off the Thebans (Key Objective is tough on phalanxes).

As for the Ponderous rule...try it sometime.  Trust me, if your opponent starts maneuvering, it becomes really painful to match him.


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Something else that should be noticed is that the phalynx units also get an impact hit, AN IMPACT HIT!  So even a (7) 5/5 unit will get 8 hit dice on the charge with an additional automatic hit at 3' and 3's. 

Again, all of which they have paid for. 


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So how long will a unit of hawk swordsmen last? How long will it take to get to that first rout check?  Pretty soon, that's how long.

An average of turn 3.7, based on the combat simulator.  However, if you put the same unit against Roman Veteran Principes (a similarly costed unit to the Thebans), the average combat length where they win is 3.2 turns.


I do think that more expensive units should win their fights against lesser units.  I am in agreement with you on that one.  What I'm worried about is how
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fast
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they are going to win.

If Pila units or cavalry didn't exist, I agree that the unit is unprecedented.  However they do.  Against an Umenzi Warrior, Theban Hoplites will take 2.8 turns to rout/destroy them.  However, other units out there will do it faster.  Veteran Principes will do it 2.5 turns and Hawkshold Light Cavalry will do it in 2.3 turns (note: Hawk Light Cavalry is only 200 pts when you adjust for the speed).

There's other units that beat up quickly on chump units, and they haven't broken the game.  Phalanxes are a new permutation of unit type:  lots of Green boxes, few Yellow/Red boxes, and lots of attack dice.  Are they scary?  Sure!  That's the idea!  Are they busted?  Our playtesting so far says no.  Once you get over the initial shock of "6 Green boxes!?" and "7 Attack Dice!?" they can be dealt with. 

« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 11:23:20 PM by Hannibal »

gornhorror

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2014, 11:12:58 PM »
Fair enough.

I will try them some more.  Hopefully I can get a few more games in with them.

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RushAss

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2014, 04:10:06 PM »
I think phalanxes are a cool addition to battleground and I think EITHER increased hit dice or increased green boxes would represent them well, but I'm worried about those units having both.
This is a mild concern I had from the get go, namely the 6 green hit boxes.  I don't think 6 green hit boxes on any unit is a bad thing, I just get twitchy when more than 50% of a unit's total hit boxes are green.  Even that wouldn't be a red flag to me if we where talking about a highly specialized unit or even a super unit, but we're talking about core line units in the 200-300 point range (I'm rolling the Greek Mercs into this conversation).  The fact that more than half of a unit's hit boxes are green makes courage stats less meaningful because you are rolling for those checks later than you normally would when playing other line units in that points range.  Now it certainly is possible that the formula accounts for that.  And I'm not wildly against units like these and for all we know they could be 100% fine and a successful new paradigm.  I just wanted to get those thoughts out there.

Extra dice - That boat sailed when the game first came out.  Hawk Pikemen have 7 dice (and 5 boxes!) at under 200 points.  Dwarven Hammermen have 7 dice and can have an 8th for a CA.  Even the impact hit doesn't bug me because it's at POW 5 and there are quite a few instances due to various conditions where you won't even get it.

Are they busted?  Our playtesting so far says no.  Once you get over the initial shock of "6 Green boxes!?" and "7 Attack Dice!?" they can be dealt with. 
See, this is partially on us (meaning all players not in Corey's group) because the factions have been out there and we never play tested them.  And now we're all squawking when we really should have been squawking a year ago.   
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Hannibal

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2014, 07:59:01 PM »
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This is a mild concern I had from the get go, namely the 6 green hit boxes.  I don't think 6 green hit boxes on any unit is a bad thing, I just get twitchy when more than 50% of a unit's total hit boxes are green.  Even that wouldn't be a red flag to me if we where talking about a highly specialized unit or even a super unit, but we're talking about core line units in the 200-300 point range (I'm rolling the Greek Mercs into this conversation).  The fact that more than half of a unit's hit boxes are green makes courage stats less meaningful because you are rolling for those checks later than you normally would when playing other line units in that points range.  Now it certainly is possible that the formula accounts for that.

I think it does. 

Take this unit:

Swordsmen  192 pts
O:(5)5/5  D:2/2  Mv: 3.5"  Rge:-  Cge 12  4G/3Y/3R

If you add 2 Green boxes, the cost becomes 218 pts (+26 pts).

If you add 2 attack dice, the cost becomes 234 pts (+42 pts).

But if you add both, the cost becomes 265 pts (+73 pts).

Note how the combination of the two is worth more than the sum of its parts?  The reason is because the formula takes into account that some things are non-linear.  Namely, that the more green boxes you have, the more valuable things like attack stats become.  Similarly, a unit's "defensive value" is an amalgam of its defensive skill, its toughness, plus its Courage and the number of Green/Yellow/Red hit boxes it has.

In short, yes with 6 green boxes you'll be rolling courage checks later.  But that is accounted for in the formula.


The other thing that I know I keep harping on, but is something that we saw over and over in playtesting was that although those dice and hit boxes are scary, they don't come with a great set of stats.  Those hoplites in the 200-300pt range are still just average humans in a lot of cases.  The average Theban hoplites clock in at 254 pts, in the neigborhood of Dwarf Axemen and Orc Spearmen.  The 300pt Corinthians are Toughness 3.  They're basically Orc Swordsmen with +2 dice and +2 green boxes...for +63 pts. 

For those same 300pts, you can get Orc Axemen (O:(5)6/6, D:1/3, Cge 13) or Dark Elf Duskblades (O:(5)6/6 , D:3/1, Cge 13).  Plug both matchups into the simulator and the Corinthians lose both of them (48%-39% vs Axemen and 48%-40% vs the Duskblades). 

Which is pretty consistent with our playtest results.  Greeks will beat up on guys who are O:(5)5/5 D:2/2, but you expect that to happen because they cost 30% more than those guys.  But against similarly costed units who have their points in stats, the hoplites have a tough time.

Heck, look at Theban Hoplites vs HE Battle Squads.  Yes the hoplites win (like 90% of the time), but it takes them 4.6 turns to do it (vs the 2.8 turns it takes to kill the Umenzi).  That's 4-5 turns (vs 2-3 turns) to kill a unit that costs almost the same as Umenzi Spearmen.  And there's a 1-in-3 chance that it will take the Hoplites 6 or 7 turns to win!  That's a 187pt unit pinning down 254pts for the majority of the game.


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See, this is partially on us (meaning all players not in Corey's group) because the factions have been out there and we never play tested them.  And now we're all squawking when we really should have been squawking a year ago.   

Yeah, pretty much.  The Alexander and Persia is so near to print that I'm incredibly resistant to making wholesale changes now.

Hannibal

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 12:22:07 PM »
After a long hiatus in updating, the playtest proxies have been updated to what I sincerely hope is the final draft.

gornhorror

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 02:19:24 PM »
Just a question, are the offensive bonuses for the Kardakes against the large and cavalry when they are on hold?  Or do they get it all the time.  The proxies do not say "when on hold or while holding......"

I also did no check the other cards, but aren't those bonues against cavalry and large units only in effect if the unit is on hold?
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Hannibal

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Re: Playtest Proxies
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 06:50:18 PM »
Huh.  Well that's embarrassing.  :-[  I wonder if those got written short-hand sometime back and I just never checked it.

Yeah, the +2 Pow for things like Kardakes, Sparabara, Immortals, Royal Guard, Iphicratean Spearmen, and Agema are only when they're on Hold.