Author Topic: New Special Conditions  (Read 7476 times)

Kevin

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New Special Conditions
« on: October 13, 2011, 10:35:59 AM »
Was thinking it might be nice to have more special conditions, much as the "monthly" Kingdoms page has extra map variants.

Here are a few I just brainstormed up.  Anyone out there got any others?


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Jaded Troops:  Each player gets an extra command action, but it costs two actions to draw a command card or mark a faction ability.

Fog of War:  Each side gets 1 less command action.

Non-Lethal:  No unit can do more than 2 points of damage per attack, any excess damage is ignored.

Compressed field:  The map is 26" wide, not extending past the edges of the deployment zones.

Looting:  Units require 2 command actions to make ranged attacks.  When an unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, it automatically passes any rout checks and its orders are immediately changed to Hold.  Put a die with a number 3 on top of the unit.  This is the number of command actions which are required to change the unit's orders or take direct control.  During the combat phase of your turn, reduce this number by 1. 
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RushAss

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 10:51:55 AM »
Was thinking it might be nice to have more special conditions, much as the "monthly" Kingdoms page has extra map variants.

Here are a few I just brainstormed up.  Anyone out there got any others?


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1 -Jaded Troops:  Each player gets an extra command action, but it costs two actions to draw a command card or mark a faction ability.

2 - Fog of War:  Each side gets 1 less command action.

3 - Non-Lethal:  No unit can do more than 2 points of damage per attack, any excess damage is ignored.

4 - Compressed field:  The map is 26" wide, not extending past the edges of the deployment zones.

5 - Looting:  Units require 2 command actions to make ranged attacks.  When an unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, it automatically passes any rout checks and its orders are immediately changed to Hold.  Put a die with a number 3 on top of the unit.  This is the number of command actions which are required to change the unit's orders or take direct control.  During the combat phase of your turn, reduce this number by 1.  

I like 1, 2, and 4.  3 would encourage players to field units with weak defensive stats because nobody can inflict more than 2 damage per attack.  I'm sure fans of calvary and big monsters would absolutely hate that.  5 seems cool from a flavor standpoint (especially for Orcs and Monsters & Mercs!), but seems to be a bit much IMO.

I was thinking of rules for wintery conditions and I think I'll create a separate thread for that.  To be honest, most of the modifiers would be based on modifiers that already exist.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:48:35 AM by RushAss »
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gull2112

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 06:46:44 PM »
Actually, the looting option was the one I liked best, we can quibble about the details, I know Kevin was just throwing it out there.
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Hannibal

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 07:16:05 PM »
Yeah, I'm gonna throw my support behind Kevin on the principle of this one.  I think all of those are neat ideas and should be pursued, tweaking obviously where necessary.

elgin_j

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 03:42:30 AM »
My thoughts were that 1 doesn't need an extra CA, 3 is alright but it needs to be clearly understood the impact it will have on an army and five is probably a little too extreme in requiring 3 CAs but the idea is nice.
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Kevin

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2011, 10:35:58 AM »
Thanks, guys!  If the peanut gallery comes up with 1-2 more we would have enough for 2 special condition cards.

Here are the revisions with your feedback in mind:


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1 -Jaded Troops:  It costs two command actions to draw a command card or mark/use a faction ability.  (Any unused command actions in a turn are wasted.)

2 - Fog of War:  Each side gets 1 less command action.

3 - Non-Lethal:  No unit can do more than 2 points of damage per attack, any excess damage is ignored.

4 - Compressed field:  The map is 26" wide, not extending past the edges of the deployment zones.

5 - Looting:  You must spend a command action (in addition to all regular requrements) to have a unit make a ranged attack.  When your unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, your unit automatically passes any rout checks, its orders are immediately changed to Hold, and mark the card.  While the card is marked, it takes an extra command action to change its orders or take direct control.  Erase the mark at the end of the combat phase of your next turn.   Units with automatic orders of (unmodified) C are affected by this rule, though their orders can only be changed from H back to (unmodified) C.


I agree that condition 3 is potentially problematic, making certain units much less desirable.  1 and 2 seem a bit redundant (though I personally like them both); if I had to, at the moment I'd go with 2, 4, and 5.  But would love to see others' ideas.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 10:38:46 AM by Kevin »
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Hannibal

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2011, 12:59:41 PM »
5 - Looting:  You must spend a command action (in addition to all regular requrements) to have a unit make a ranged attack.  When your unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, your unit automatically passes any rout checks, its orders are immediately changed to Hold, and mark the card.  While the card is marked, it takes an extra command action to change its orders or take direct control.  Erase the mark at the end of the combat phase of your next turn.   Units with automatic orders of (unmodified) C are affected by this rule, though their orders can only be changed from H back to (unmodified) C.

I have a question on the command action for ranged attacks, why have it?  Spending a CA for a ranged attack means ranged units'll stay in the box.  Other than that, I like the idea.

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I agree that condition 3 is potentially problematic, making certain units much less desirable. 

What about ignore every X wound?  For example it could be "ignore every 2nd pt of damage" so if a unit does 3 pts, it actually does 2.  Or perhaps, every attack does 1 less point of damage down a minimum of 1 pt.


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1 and 2 seem a bit redundant (though I personally like them both);


Keep em and put them on two different cards.  Stormy Weather and night fight have a similar effect and so they just end up on different cards.


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if I had to, at the moment I'd go with 2, 4, and 5.  But would love to see others' ideas.

K, just tossing out ideas:

What about making units Impulsive?  Like "Reckless Courage."  If an enemy is within 7" at the start of the M&C the unit rolls a Cge check.  If it passes the unit's order becomes Close.

Faction specific command cards don't recycle.  Once you play a faction specific card, remove it from the deck (unless there's an army ability that allows you to replay them).

Faction specific command cards can be drawn back into your hand after being played.  At the end of a turn you played a faction specific card, roll a d6 for each card.  On a 5+, pick that card up and put it back in your hand.

Momentum:  if an engaged unit caused more damage than it received from engaged attacks in a turn, all enemy units engaged with it suffer (-1)-0/-0 on its next attack.

Bitter Enemies:  Ignore all Cge penalties for being in the Yellow or Red.

Ill Omens:  All units suffer -1 Cge this game.  Units that automatically pass Cge checks suffer D: -1/-0 this game instead.

Skirmish (i.e. a battle fought without a general or centralized command and control).  After deployment, mark 1 unit per 2 Core choices required (round up).  That unit has a commander.  Units without a commander or without a center-point within 3.5" of a center-point of a unit with a commander are Disordered.  It takes an extra CA to change the standing order, direct control, or use the army ability on a Disordered units.  To play a CC on a Disordered unit, you must first discard 1 command card (this stacks with other discard requirements).  If a unit with a commander is destroyed/routs, you may move the commander to any unit with a center-point within 7" of the destroyed/routing unit.  Otherwise the commander is lost.

Inspired:  choose one unit before deployment.  You gain an extra CA which can only be used on the chosen unit to direct control it, change its standing order, or use the army's faction ability.

Healers:  At the end of every turn, the player rolls 1d3.  He may heal that many points of damage on his units.  No unit may heal more than 1 pt of damage per turn, and may not be used on units that healed a point of damage that turn by some other means.

Unexplored terrain:  the first time a unit enters an MC penalizing terrain, roll a d6.  On 1-2: increase the MC penalty by 1.  3-4: No change.  5-6:  decrease the MC penalty by 1.

Kevin

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2011, 04:37:09 PM »
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5 - Looting:  You must spend a command action (in addition to all regular requrements) to have a unit make a ranged attack.  When your unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, your unit automatically passes any rout checks, its orders are immediately changed to Hold, and mark the card.  While the card is marked, it takes an extra command action to change its orders or take direct control.  Erase the mark at the end of the combat phase of your next turn.   Units with automatic orders of (unmodified) C are affected by this rule, though their orders can only be changed from H back to (unmodified) C.

I have a question on the command action for ranged attacks, why have it?  Spending a CA for a ranged attack means ranged units'll stay in the box.  Other than that, I like the idea.

Keeping ranged attackers in the box is the point.  Stand & Shoot games are dull, and if you penalize engaged units but not those who can hurt from a distance the scenario becomes "muddy field pt. 2."  :-\


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What about ignore every X wound?  For example it could be "ignore every 2nd pt of damage" so if a unit does 3 pts, it actually does 2.  Or perhaps, every attack does 1 less point of damage down a minimum of 1 pt.

I like that one a lot:  
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Non-Lethal:  Ignore every 2nd point of damage




Thanks for the suggestions.  There are 4 which I like.

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Faction specific command cards can be drawn back into your hand after being played.  At the end of a turn you played a faction specific card, roll a d6 for each card.  On a 5+, pick that card up and put it back in your hand.

Very nice, but needs a title.  "Solidarity"...?


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Bitter Enemies:  Ignore all Cge penalties for being in the Yellow or Red.

Won't have much effect on game play, but it works.


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Skirmish (i.e. a battle fought without a general or centralized command and control).  After deployment, mark 1 unit per 2 Core choices required (round up).  That unit has a commander.  Units without a commander or without a center-point within 3.5" of a center-point of a unit with a commander are Disordered.  It takes an extra CA to change the standing order, direct control, or use the army ability on a Disordered units.  To play a CC on a Disordered unit, you must first discard 1 command card (this stacks with other discard requirements).  If a unit with a commander is destroyed/routs, you may move the commander to any unit with a center-point within 7" of the destroyed/routing unit.  Otherwise the commander is lost.

I like it, but would simplify it by getting rid of the "move the commander" rules.  Tempted to make it 1 commander per 500 points and ignore the command range, in order to make things simpler.  Would encourage smaller armies.


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Healers:  At the end of every turn, the player rolls 1d3.  He may heal that many points of damage on his units.  No unit may heal more than 1 pt of damage per turn, and may not be used on units that healed a point of damage that turn by some other means.


A mirror image of "Assassins War"  Nicely done!  


As to the others:

Here are the "maybes"

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"Reckless Courage."  If an enemy is within 7" at the start of the M&C the unit rolls a Cge check.  If it passes the unit's order becomes Close.

This one is OK too...though I worry about how it'll balance with units which are already stupid, not to mention totally rescramble the formula as people want uber-cheap units and Umenzi keep their shamans back.




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Faction specific command cards don't recycle.  Once you play a faction specific card, remove it from the deck (unless there's an army ability that allows you to replay them).

This strikes me as similar to "Familiar Foe," in that vast majority games it will have zero effect on game play.




And the ones I'd as soon leave behind:


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Momentum:  if an engaged unit caused more damage than it received from engaged attacks in a turn, all enemy units engaged with it suffer (-1)-0/-0 on its next attack.

Biases combat even more in terms of the bigger hitter, and magnifies any difference in luck.


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Ill Omens:  All units suffer -1 Cge this game.  Units that automatically pass Cge checks suffer D: -1/-0 this game instead.

Auto-pass units will stay in the box.  -1 courage across the board isnt' the worst thing ever, but will make things more random without changing basic strategy.


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Inspired:  choose one unit before deployment.  You gain an extra CA which can only be used on the chosen unit to direct control it, change its standing order, or use the army's faction ability.

Too similar to "Veteran Troops," plus it screws armies which don't have a checkbox.



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Unexplored terrain:  the first time a unit enters an MC penalizing terrain, roll a d6.  On 1-2: increase the MC penalty by 1.  3-4: No change.  5-6:  decrease the MC penalty by 1
.

Too big a risk for a unit to bog down, with no corresponding gain in strategy.  On the other hand, I could see something like


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Frontier troops:  All terrain-based MC penalties are reduced by one.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 04:58:26 PM by Kevin »
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Kevin

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2011, 04:56:01 PM »
Here's a master list, in no particular order, as I see it.  Enough for 3 cards!

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1 -Jaded Troops:  It costs two command actions to draw a command card or mark/use a faction ability.  (Any unused command actions in a turn are wasted.)

2 - Fog of War:  Each side gets 1 less command action.

3 - Non-Lethal:  Every second point of damage from any given attack is ignored.

4 - Compressed field:  The map is 26" wide, not extending past the edges of the deployment zones.

5 - Looting:  You must spend a command action (in addition to all regular requrements) to have a unit make a ranged attack.  When your unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, your unit automatically passes any rout checks, its orders are immediately changed to Hold, and mark the card.  While the card is marked, it takes an extra command action to change its orders or take direct control.  Erase the mark at the end of the combat phase of your next turn.   Units with automatic orders of (unmodified) C are affected by this rule, though their orders can only be changed from H back to (unmodified) C.

6 - Solidarity:   Faction specific command cards can be drawn back into your hand after being played.  At the end of a turn you played a faction specific card, roll a d6 for each card.  On a 5+, pick that card up and put it back in your hand.

7 - Bitter Enemies:  Ignore all Cge penalties for being in the Yellow or Red.

8 - Skirmish:  After deployment, mark 1 unit per Commadn Action.  That unit has a commander.  Units without a commander are Disordered.  It takes an extra CA to change the standing order, direct control, or use the army ability on a Disordered units.  To play a CC on a Disordered unit, you must first discard 1 command card (this stacks with other discard requirements).

9 - Healers:  At the beginning of each of his turns, the player rolls 1d3.  He may heal that many points of damage on his units.  No unit may heal more than 1 pt of damage per turn, and may not be used on units that healed a point of damage that turn by some other means.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2011, 04:58:26 PM »
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Keeping ranged attackers in the box is the point.  Stand & Shoot games are dull, and if you penalize engaged units but not those who can hurt from a distance the scenario becomes "muddy field pt. 2."

K, fair enough.


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Bitter Enemies:  Ignore all Cge penalties for being in the Yellow or Red.

Won't have much effect on game play, but it works.

Think so?  A Cge 12 unit currently has a 30% chance of passing its Yellow and first Red.  Take away the penalties and it has a 55% chance of passing that same two checks.


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"Reckless Courage."  If an enemy is within 7" at the start of the M&C the unit rolls a Cge check.  If it passes the unit's order becomes Close.

This one is OK too...though I worry about how it'll balance with units which are already stupid, not to mention totally rescramble the formula as people want uber-cheap units and Umenzi keep their shamans back.

Could pair it with units that fail go to Hold(no objective)?  Anyway it's definitely a more wacky idea.


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Faction specific command cards don't recycle.  Once you play a faction specific card, remove it from the deck (unless there's an army ability that allows you to replay them).

This strikes me as similar to "Familiar Foe," in that vast majority games it will have zero effect on game play.

Fair enough.  Make it all command cards then.  Your deck is a "one and done" thing, so use that Cunning wisely.


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Momentum:  if an engaged unit caused more damage than it received from engaged attacks in a turn, all enemy units engaged with it suffer (-1)-0/-0 on its next attack.

Biases combat even more in terms of the bigger hitter, and magnifies any difference in luck.

Yeah, but I'm fine with wackyness producing swingier results.


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Unexplored terrain:  the first time a unit enters an MC penalizing terrain, roll a d6.  On 1-2: increase the MC penalty by 1.  3-4: No change.  5-6:  decrease the MC penalty by 1

Too big a risk for a unit to bog down, with no corresponding gain in strategy.

True, but see above.   ;)  A difference in play style, I guess.  I find introducing a little chaos just for chaos's sake can be fun.  We were talking last night of in our third game (which didn't happen) of building our respective lists then rolling a d6.  On a 4+, we switch lists with no modifications and then play.

Kevin

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 10:42:49 AM »
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Bitter Enemies:  Ignore all Cge penalties for being in the Yellow or Red.

Won't have much effect on game play, but it works.

Think so?  A Cge 12 unit currently has a 30% chance of passing its Yellow and first Red.  Take away the penalties and it has a 55% chance of passing that same two checks.

Demerit to me for not articulating well.  :-[  I meant to say that I don't see it having much affect on army builds and general strategy.  The actual flow of the game will change a bit, which certainly makes it worth including.  And for all I know it will affect general strategy more than I'm seeing.



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Faction specific command cards don't recycle.  Once you play a faction specific card, remove it from the deck (unless there's an army ability that allows you to replay them).

This strikes me as similar to "Familiar Foe," in that vast majority games it will have zero effect on game play.

Fair enough.  Make it all command cards then.  Your deck is a "one and done" thing, so use that Cunning wisely.

Most games it won't have any affect, those that it does it threatens to tilt very heavily in favor of one faction.  Umenzi would jump for joy.  Dwarves would be fairly content until they max out.  Orcs would be spending actions for 1 die 1 turn, as units would likely be locked in combat by then.  Persia would be totally out of luck.



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Anyway it's definitely a more wacky idea.

Given the ones which are printed, my sense is that Special Conditions are there to give games an extra little twist without totally rescrambling them.  They're analogous to putting a slice of lemon in someone's water glass, as opposed to serving them lemonade with their dinner.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

gull2112

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 11:57:23 AM »
Given the ones which are printed, my sense is that Special Conditions are there to give games an extra little twist without totally rescrambling them.  They're analogous to putting a slice of lemon in someone's water glass, as opposed to serving them lemonade with their dinner.

Excellent analogy, cogently puts the proper aspect and role on the scope of special conditions.

I had thought of one where the combatant that caused the most wounds would either force a Morale Check (in which case ignore colors for morale checks) or push the opponent back 1/2S. Too strong lemonade! :P
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Hannibal

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 03:03:44 PM »
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Given the ones which are printed, my sense is that Special Conditions are there to give games an extra little twist without totally rescrambling them.  They're analogous to putting a slice of lemon in someone's water glass, as opposed to serving them lemonade with their dinner.

Fair enough.  I mean, that's not per se true with the existing conditions:  deploying blind vs alternating, assassins really hurts cavalry and other low box units, etc.


I still have a concern about this one:

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5 - Looting:  You must spend a command action (in addition to all regular requrements) to have a unit make a ranged attack.  When your unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, your unit automatically passes any rout checks, its orders are immediately changed to Hold, and mark the card.  While the card is marked, it takes an extra command action to change its orders or take direct control.  Erase the mark at the end of the combat phase of your next turn.   Units with automatic orders of (unmodified) C are affected by this rule, though their orders can only be changed from H back to (unmodified) C.

because it affects all ranged attacks.  For most armies its fine, if a bit restrictive, to leave your archers and crossbowmen in the box but for other factions with ranged units built into a large portion of the Core or as pila/javelins that's a lot of dead points.  For example, Rome & Carthage (and when they come out, Persia) has most of their units with some ranged attack that will basically be nerfed.  At 20+ pts per unit for pilas, for example, that's a lot of dead points.

What about instead doubling the range penalty?  Long is (-0)-2/-0 and Extreme is (-0)-4/-0.  It could represent the archer units being terribly careful not to hurt the loot when they shoot.

Kevin

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 09:52:17 PM »









Re: New Special Conditions

« Reply #12 on: Today at 03:03:44 pm »

QuoteModifyRemoveSplit Topic


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Given the ones which are printed, my sense is that Special Conditions are there to give games an extra little twist without totally rescrambling them.  They're analogous to putting a slice of lemon in someone's water glass, as opposed to serving them lemonade with their dinner.

Fair enough.  I mean, that's not per se true with the existing conditions:  deploying blind vs alternating, assassins really hurts cavalry and other low box units, etc.


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I still have a concern about this one:


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5 - Looting:  [snip]

because it affects all ranged attacks. [snip]


OK you make a good point.  I think the best way to balance things is to remove the CA requirement and make all ranged attacks (-1) -0/-0 outside of range 3.5".  Troops are trying to conserve ammunition and all that. 


This would make it:

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5 - Looting:  When your unit was engaged with a unit which was destroyed, your unit automatically passes any rout checks, its orders are immediately changed to Hold, and mark the card.  While the card is marked, it takes an extra command action to change its orders or take direct control.  Erase the mark at the end of the combat phase of your next turn.   Units with automatic orders of (unmodified) C are affected by this rule, though their orders can only be changed from H back to (unmodified) C.  All ranged attacks made from beyond 3.5" are at (-1) -0/-0 (in addition to any other penalties). 

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

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Re: New Special Conditions
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 02:29:18 PM »
Hmm, I wonder if the porridge is too cold then.  You made a very good point about shooting gets a big boost when units have to stop at loot.  What about instead giving all ranged attacks a (-0)-1/-0?  That's a big hit to range units but it doesn't just invalidate them.