Author Topic: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!  (Read 20287 times)

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2011, 08:06:24 PM »
Presuming I'm wrong on the army ability and Chad talks some sense into me where Kevin & Bubblepig have failed, here's another idea for a check-box ability:

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Arete:  Spend a Command Action to mark the box.  May erase after you roll to hit to lower the result of one die by 1.  Or may erase the Arete box after your opponent rolls to hit to raise the result of one die by 1.  This counts as playing a Command Card.

It's functionally a weaker Roll with the Blow or Follow Through.  But it plays into that "just a little bit more skilled than you" idea that on those die rolls that are riiight on the edge, the Amazons win the tie-breaker.  I ran this by Kevin and it got his seal of approval, but we'll see if he still likes it.   ;)

It's a bit wordy because if I phrased it "may erase after you or your opponent rolls to hit to raise or lower the result of one die by 1," that'd open the door for you to increase the number of hits a unit scores on you.  Sometimes you want a junk unit with 1 red box left to just get out of the way so your better unit can get stuck in, and that kind of goes against the theme of this ability.


I also scribbled down some idea for command cards.  I know Chad wanted to do a lot of Goddess and priestess inspired themes, but I couldn't come up with any.  Mostly my mind kept returning to the "heroic society" type cards.  The idea that I had is that while the Amazons are in units, they're not about being super skilled soldiers.  Certainly they're not terrible, but they're not going to have "formation" type cards and maneuver master and "3 CAs to direct control" type cards.  A unit of Amazons is more a collection of aspiring heroes, looking to pair off and fight a skilled enemy individually.  They're more into feats and deeds that are retold in legends.  In essence, they're glory hounds.

So here's what I have:

(design thoughts in italics)

Against All Odds
Discard X Command Cards (X is between 0-2) before your opponent rolls to hit.  If your opponent does equal or less than X+1 points of damage, your unit takes no damage from the attack.  Otherwise, your unit takes the full amount of damage.

I shamelessly stole Kevin's idea.  I didn't like it because it was a bit wonky for a command ability, but I think the idea works when its a command card.

Worthy Adversary
Play before your opponent rolls to hit.  Your unit gains D: +1/+0 for this attack and +1 Cge this turn.  If your unit is engaged with an enemy unit that has Offensive Skill 6 or higher, your unit gains an additional D: +1/+0 and +1 Cge.

Heroes Shall Rise
Play before rolling to hit.  Pick one bonus from the list below for this attack.  If the unit is in the Yellow, pick two.  If the unit is in the Red, pick three.  May only pick each bonus once.
  • (+2) +0/+0
  • (+0) +1/+0
  • (+0) +0/+1
  • +2 Cge (lasts until end of turn)

Last Stand
Play before your opponent rolls to hit. Pick one bonus from the list below for this attack.  If the unit is in the Yellow, pick two.  If the unit is in the Red, pick three.  May only pick each bonus once.
  • +1/+0
  • +0/+1
  • (-1) -0/-0 to opponent
  • +2 Cge (lasts until end of turn)

These are similar to the Hawkshold formation cards, but I figure they were different enough because you get to choose more as you took more damage, which just seems more heroic.  The blue version may be more useful than the red, because your defense doesn't suffer when you're in the Yellow/Red.

Precise Attack
Play before rolling to hit.  Your unit gains (+0) +0/+2 this attack and if you cause at least one point of damage before damage prevention, you cause an additional point of damage.

I really like this one, because I envision it being them finding the weak spots in the armor or aiming for the eyes of the big bad they're fighting.  This is the roleplaying "Called Shot."

Sisters in Arms
Play when you fail a rout check.  Reroll that rout check.  If the unit has a center point within 3.5" of another engaged Amazon unit, it automatically passes the rout check.

Worthy of Greatness
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Choose one:
Gain 3 Command Actions, but only to mark a unit's Arete box.
OR
Draw 1 Command Card

This one kinda feels like a cop-out card.  It shows up a lot.  But then again, free marking of boxes is pretty good.  And the army ability really is more of a gamble, so this basically lets you play with the house's money, so this particular one might be pretty good despite not being terrible original.

Aspire to Perfection
Play before rolling to hit.  Your unit gains (+1) +1/+0 on this attack and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit's Arete box is marked, the unit also gains (+0) +0/+1 on this attack and an additional +1 Cge this turn.

I can already hear Kevin's teeth grinding.  I like cards that synergize with a faction's army ability and feel there should be more cards like this.


I'd also like to echo some thoughts that Gull had about a secondary minor ability.  I was thinking some courage bump (assuming the check box doesn't get revised to give them a +1 Cge while marked).  The main line of the army, despite being such a heroic society, has a fairly mediocre Courage.  While that's all well and good, because for there to be heroes they have to stand out among the mere normals, but it'd be nice if they could get some bonus.

I was thinking they get a bonus when they accomplish something.  That'd be very fitting.  Game play it'd make them a "momentum" army, in that they get better as they do better.  Maybe something like they get +2 Cge every time they force a rout check?  (the actual Cge bonus isn't set n my mind, just exploring the idea)

Game play this would make for some interesting situations.  If the Amazons and their opponent both go into the Yellow at the same time, the advantage is to the Amazons.  Same thing if its the two units duking it out in the Red:  if the Amazons force a check, they go back to Cge 12.  The Amazon player would be encouraged to time their checks to happen at the same time as the other player. Meanwhile the opponent, given the choice of forcing the Amazon check now or next turn, might hold onto that card and take the check now and then force the Amazons to take the Cge check "off schedule" from him.  This may lead to some wonky metagaming, but I think its worth trying out.

Kevin

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2011, 08:41:35 PM »
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Spend a Command Action to mark the box.  May erase after you roll to hit to lower the result of one die by 1.  Or may erase the Arete box after your opponent rolls to hit to raise the result of one die by 1.  This counts as playing a Command Card.

Once again Corey comes up with a worthless faction ability.  As it's written, I'm literally *never* going to check this box as it is written--since not all hits punch through, it'll usually be worth 1/2 or 2/3 of a point of damage...when you can play it at all.

If you could play it after the opponent rolls to damage, then it becomes a decent ability--akin to Spirit Guidance or Faith armor, it would be worth a point of damage.  It would gain flexibility because it could be played on either the attack or the defense, but it would carry the risk that it often could not be played at all.

Another option would be to keep it as it, but have it not count as a command card, but even without it counting as a command card that would make it one of the weaker abilities value-wise, only worth playing when a unit absolutely MUST hold or punch through....bit still viable since it could often be used when most needed.



I still like the "mortally wounded fight on" command action thing though--more flavor.  It sure would be nice if certain people gave their 2 cents on conflicting proposals, in addition to sharing their opinions on long-established factions...




As to the command cards...

Against all odds:  That can work.  The "Against All Odds" card should of course count as one card, and I wouldn't cap the number of cards you can chuck.  If you really want to discard 6 cards to prevent 6 damage, i say go for it!

Worthy Adversary:  I like it.

Heroes shall rise:  good name, but the card is too strong.  I'd say make it a simpler and tone it down a bit:  "Play during an attack, before your unit rolls to hit.  Your unit gets (+0) +1/+0 or (+0) +0/+1.  The unit gets an additional (+1) +0/+0 if it is in the yellow, or (+2) +0/+0) if it is in the red."

Last stand:  Similar to Heroes shall rise.  It needs a little tone down.  To make it a mirror image of Heroes Shall Rise, that would be:  "Play during an attack, before the opponent unit rolls to hit.  Your unit gets either +1/+0 or +0/+1.  The enemy unit gets (-1) -0/-0 if your unit is in the yellow; (-2) -0/-0 if your unit is in the red.

Sisters in Arms:  Nice title and flavor, but too strong.  Rome gets the auto-pass if backed up, but backing up a unit sucks in Battleground, keeping a unit out of action, so Rome's Courage of Numbers card is designed to be extra-good.  I'd steal from the Dark Elves, and let the reroll be at either the unit's courage, or at the courage of any engaged Amazon unit with a center point within 3.5" of any center point of this unit, whichever is higher.


Worthy of Greatness:  A little bit too strong again.  (Seriously Corey, you're like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde here with the wimpy checkbox and the uber-cards!)  I'd say mark 2 boxes, and units with their boxes marked get +2 courage this turn.

Aspire to Perfection.  I actually like this card, HA!   ;D  Just lose the courage bump and it'll be balanced.  (Or lose the +1 power and instead give it +2 courage if the box is checked.  I think I like the courage bump version more.)

« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 08:52:28 PM by Kevin »
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Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2011, 09:17:09 PM »
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Once again Corey comes up with a worthless faction ability.

Tell you what, Kevin, I'll come up with rules you like when you come up with ones that don't require a player to do sudoku on their cards.

Seriously, you just hate faction abilities.  And you liked this one when I emailed you.   ::)


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Against all odds:  That can work.  The "Against All Odds" card should of course count as one card, and I wouldn't cap the number of cards you can chuck.  If you really want to discard 6 cards to prevent 6 damage, i say go for it!

I thought the same thing, but it does allow for wonky end-of-game stuff where a single unit can be functionally invulnerable.


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Heroes shall rise:  good name, but the card is too strong.  I'd say make it a simpler and tone it down a bit:  "Play during an attack, before your unit rolls to hit.  Your unit gets (+0) +1/+0 or (+0) +0/+1.  The unit gets an additional (+1) +0/+0 if it is in the yellow, or (+2) +0/+0) if it is in the red."

That strikes me as a phenomenally lame card.  Basically if you're in the Yellow/Red it's just negating the attack dice.  Whereas the previous incarnation you got better for being in the Yellow/Red but you had to pass a Cge check to get there.  This is a sucky card that if you don't run you don't suck quite so much.


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Sisters in Arms:  Nice title and flavor, but too strong.  Rome gets the auto-pass if backed up, but backing up a unit sucks in Battleground, keeping a unit out of action, so Rome's Courage of Numbers card is designed to be extra-good.  I'd steal from the Dark Elves, and let the reroll be at either the unit's courage, or at the courage of any engaged Amazon unit with a center point within 3.5" of any center point of this unit, whichever is higher.

That's fair on the Rome comparison.  Still I'd prefer not to steal so completely from the recent faction.  Maybe +1 Cge for every engaged unit within 3.5"?


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Worthy of Greatness:  A little bit too strong again.  (Seriously Corey, you're like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde here with the wimpy checkbox and the uber-cards!)  I'd say mark 2 boxes, and units with their boxes marked get +2 courage this turn.

I was thinking the Cge bump but avoiding it for a couple a reasons.  There's a certain other faction that has a lot Cge bump cards.  Also, I was thinking of the secondary ability for adding Cge to the Amazon faction as taking up that slack.


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Aspire to Perfection.  I actually like this card, HA!

Only because I said something.   8)


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Just lose the courage bump and it'll be balanced.  (Or lose the +1 power and instead give it +2 courage if the box is checked.  I think I like the courage bump version more.)

Well, let's think of it this way:  functionally to get maximum benefit from this card you have to spend 2 CA.  If I could expend 2 cards on a unit, I could easily get (+2) +1/+1.  So I was going for something that was 1.5 cards.  Hence (+1)+1/+1, a bonus which has been seen on cards before.

Maybe you get (+1) +1/+0 and with Arete box you get (+0) +0/+1 and +1 Cge.  That strikes me as about 1.5 command cards worth right there.

Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2011, 09:21:09 PM »
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Arete:  Spend a Command Action to mark the box.  May erase after you roll to hit to lower the result of one die by 1.  Or may erase the Arete box after your opponent rolls to hit to raise the result of one die by 1.  This counts as playing a Command Card.

It's functionally a weaker Roll with the Blow or Follow Through.  But it plays into that "just a little bit more skilled than you" idea that on those die rolls that are riiight on the edge, the Amazons win the tie-breaker.  I ran this by Kevin and it got his seal of approval, but we'll see if he still likes it.   ;)

It's funny -- I had an idea like this and as a result misread this to think that you could modify any die roll by one (which may be too good) rather than just a "to hit" die.  I think this is too weak -- significantly less than a point of damage dealt or prevented, especially since you won't always have a die that hits the magic number.

How about two boxes?  One is offensive, the other defensive -- but you can modify any roll of the appropriate type.  We might also say that if at least one box is marked the unit gets C+1.

If you're modifying a damage roll it's always worth one point if it gets used and most of the time it will eventually get used.  That seems pretty solid to me, but not over the top.


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Against All Odds
Discard X Command Cards (X is between 0-2) before your opponent rolls to hit.  If your opponent does equal or less than X+1 points of damage, your unit takes no damage from the attack.  Otherwise, your unit takes the full amount of damage.

I shamelessly stole Kevin's idea.  I didn't like it because it was a bit wonky for a command ability, but I think the idea works when its a command card.

I'm curious what people think of this.  I generally hate command cards with big "all or nothing" effects, but I know some people like them and I can definitely see situations where you'd want to use this.  I'd still be inclined to replace it with a single-copy card like, "Discard 2 Command Cards to play Against All Odds.  Prevent up to three points of damage this attack."

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Worthy Adversary
Play before your opponent rolls to hit.  Your unit gains D: +1/+0 for this attack and +1 Cge this turn.  If your unit is engaged with an enemy unit that has Offensive Skill 6 or higher, your unit gains an additional D: +1/+0 and +1 Cge.

I like this!

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Heroes Shall Rise
Play before rolling to hit.  Pick one bonus from the list below for this attack.  If the unit is in the Yellow, pick two.  If the unit is in the Red, pick three.  May only pick each bonus once.
  • (+2) +0/+0
  • (+0) +1/+0
  • (+0) +0/+1
  • +2 Cge (lasts until end of turn)

Last Stand
Play before your opponent rolls to hit. Pick one bonus from the list below for this attack.  If the unit is in the Yellow, pick two.  If the unit is in the Red, pick three.  May only pick each bonus once.
  • +1/+0
  • +0/+1
  • (-1) -0/-0 to opponent
  • +2 Cge (lasts until end of turn)

These are similar to the Hawkshold formation cards, but I figure they were different enough because you get to choose more as you took more damage, which just seems more heroic.  The blue version may be more useful than the red, because your defense doesn't suffer when you're in the Yellow/Red.

These are very cool and flavorful.

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Precise Attack
Play before rolling to hit.  Your unit gains (+0) +0/+2 this attack and if you cause at least one point of damage before damage prevention, you cause an additional point of damage.

I really like this one, because I envision it being them finding the weak spots in the armor or aiming for the eyes of the big bad they're fighting.  This is the roleplaying "Called Shot."

It feels odd to have Force called "precise" although I get why you're doing it here -- you're finding the hole in the armor rather than punching through.  It seems WAY too good, though.  We have faction-specific cards that give +1 attack and then do an extra point if you do a point -- this one gives you Force plus a full point.  I think for this to be viable you've got to do at least two points before damage prevention, and it may only be balanced at 3.

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Sisters in Arms
Play when you fail a rout check.  Reroll that rout check.  If the unit has a center point within 3.5" of another engaged Amazon unit, it automatically passes the rout check.

When in doubt, cheat?  I love the flavor, but this seems like easily the best courage card out there during the early game, which is often when you most need not to fail a random rout check.  How about reroll with C+1 for each Amazon unit within 3.5"?

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Worthy of Greatness
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Choose one:
Gain 3 Command Actions, but only to mark a unit's Arete box.
OR
Draw 1 Command Card

This one kinda feels like a cop-out card.  It shows up a lot.  But then again, free marking of boxes is pretty good.  And the army ability really is more of a gamble, so this basically lets you play with the house's money, so this particular one might be pretty good despite not being terrible original.

I think we make Arete good and then drop this down to two CAs, rather than give 3CAs on the grounds that Arete is iffy.  I don't think we need to give the cantrip option, either.

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Aspire to Perfection
Play before rolling to hit.  Your unit gains (+1) +1/+0 on this attack and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit's Arete box is marked, the unit also gains (+0) +0/+1 on this attack and an additional +1 Cge this turn.

I can already hear Kevin's teeth grinding.  I like cards that synergize with a faction's army ability and feel there should be more cards like this.

I agree, but this is too much.  You can easily drop the +1 power and it's still a fantastic card -- Strike with +1C for anyone and Strike with +2C (i.e. a better Red card than the Runegard equivalent) if your Arete box is market.

I snipped the last bit just to avoid this being too long, but I like the idea of giving the Amazons a sub-theme ability that relates to their flavor.  A courage boost the turn they force a rout check is a neat idea.
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Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2011, 09:34:29 PM »
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Most army abilities are worth about 1/2 a pt when it comes to inflicting damage, this puts it about on par.  If you have an O:(5) 5/5, D: 2/2 unit fighting its mirror (say Amazon Sword vs Hawk Sword), then this ability is worth 5/12 of a point, either inflicted or negated.  Slightly less than 1/2 a point, but you also have the flexibility of playing it as offensive or defensive, which makes it more adaptable to your situation.

OK let me explain sightly more why it's pathetically weak.

Mot faction abilities are worth sightly less than a command card, but there are usually very specific situations where they're the better play.

For example, Ravenwood's ability to change 1 number to a 2 is usually worse than a command card, but is undeniably better than your 4-die archer is shooting at something with toughness 3.  Even the normally lame High Elf Precision is the better play when your wounded Battlesquad (attacking with 1 or 2 dice...or e even 0 dice if it's flanked) desperately needs to do one point of damage.

Giving a unit a single +1 skill, or +1 dodge, however, is literally ALWAYS eclipsed by most command cards (The exceptions being ones that affect morale or give a reroll).  So unless you're in a really weird situation where +1 to something is paramount and you only have 1 action left and simply can't afford to risk drawing the wrong card, it's not worth it.

Now, if you made it not count as playing a command card, it would be worth considering: normally worse than a card, letting it add to a card to temporarily boost a unit's skill or dodge by 2 makes it a good deal more powerful.  (Not sure at the moment if that would even be too powerful or if it would be OK.)

I agree almost entirely.  First off, I think most army abilities are worth more than half a point.  The ones that translate into a point tend to translate into a full point with a modest restriction -- e.g. with Ravenwood you can't need a 1 and you need a hit that doesn't deal damage, with the Umenzi you can't get healed that turn (and you have to actually take damage).

The one thing this has going for it is that it can be offensive or defensive and sometimes you only have one type and really need the other.  That's only going to happen mid-to-late game, though, so this won't be attractive until then.
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Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2011, 09:39:09 PM »
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If you're modifying a damage roll it's always worth one point if it gets used and most of the time it will eventually get used.  That seems pretty solid to me, but not over the top.

Oh $#!&, I see the fuss!  I mistyped.  It meant to be "after you or your opponent rolls to hit or to wound."  My bad.  And I typed it wrong twice...

Yeah meant to be basically modify any one die.

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Against All Odds
Discard X Command Cards (X is between 0-2) before your opponent rolls to hit.  If your opponent does equal or less than X+1 points of damage, your unit takes no damage from the attack.  Otherwise, your unit takes the full amount of damage.

I'd still be inclined to replace it with a single-copy card like, "Discard 2 Command Cards to play Against All Odds.  Prevent up to three points of damage this attack."

Oy, I haaaate those type cards.  I'd much rather a weaker card that I could play by itself rather than a card that requires a discard.

For the record, I like Kevin's card, thematically.  Yeah it's a gamble, but I think it'd be fun to try out.


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Precise Attack
Play before rolling to hit.  Your unit gains (+0) +0/+2 this attack and if you cause at least one point of damage before damage prevention, you cause an additional point of damage.

It feels odd to have Force called "precise" although I get why you're doing it here -- you're finding the hole in the armor rather than punching through.  It seems WAY too good, though.  We have faction-specific cards that give +1 attack and then do an extra point if you do a point -- this one gives you Force plus a full point.  I think for this to be viable you've got to do at least two points before damage prevention, and it may only be balanced at 3.

What if you just did +1 pow?  The idea is that it's a vital shot so do a point, cause a point.  Yeah +2 pow was too much, but +1 Pow might work.  You could still flub the to-hit roll (something I've done on many a Might/Force).


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Aspire to Perfection
Play before rolling to hit.  Your unit gains (+1) +1/+0 on this attack and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit's Arete box is marked, the unit also gains (+0) +0/+1 on this attack and an additional +1 Cge this turn.

I agree, but this is too much.  You can easily drop the +1 power and it's still a fantastic card -- Strike with +1C for anyone and Strike with +2C (i.e. a better Red card than the Runegard equivalent) if your Arete box is market.

Fair enough.  Drop the Courage bump to only with the Arete?  I think the Pow bump is what makes this card.  The goal of the card is to have this big @$$ huddoken! swing.

Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2011, 09:42:46 PM »

Fight On!

Amazons will continue to fight, even when mortally wounded, until their foe is vanquished.

Spend 1 command action to mark all 3 boxes on the unit that is not currently in the red.   All wounds that the Amazon unit takes do not damage the amazon unit, but instead remove the checks from the boxes.


If the last box is ever unmarked, the amazon unit immediately takes 3 damage.

At the end of your turn, if the unit has 1 or 2 boxes marked and the unit is unengaged, remark all boxes and do one damage to the unit for each box remarked.

While the unit is engaged, you may spend a command action to remark all boxes.

-------------

To balance this ability, give Amazon units only 3 green boxes.  I'm agnostic o 3-3-4, 3-4-3, or 3-3-3.

Let's call this "Gambler's Faith Armor" on units with 3 check boxes.  If you apply it once, it effectively makes the 3 yellow boxes all green.  If you apply it at just the right moments, it is super-efficient faith armor, as if you refresh the boxes when you have 1 check box unmarked, you effectively heal 2 damage....but it can be very risky to time that right!  It can also make the final amazon unit very hard to kill, as they'll constantly be refreshing this box.

Note how it doesn't defend them from ranged attacks (Unless they engage that turn), and if the Amazons rout or kill a unit they immediately take the damage.  The mortally wounded Amazons fall over dead at that moment, their mission complete.  Finally, it doesnt' protect amazons from the BIG HAMMER, as if they take 3 damage in one attack it blows through the boxes and they take the damage.


Comments?
[/quote]

Wow.  This is one of the most innovative army abilities I've seen suggested -- very cool, very flavorful and possibly not insane.  I think it would take a lot of testing before I'd feel comfortable with it, but I can believe it's balanced.  I have a couple of non-game issues, though:

First, I can imagine it being very confusing to people, especially new players.
Second, the auto-heal thing seems very strange.  If the idea is that these mortally wounded heroes keep fighting until their enemy falls but then they finally drop, what is being represented by spending a CA to remark any unmarked boxes?  Inspiration to keep fighting the next unit, maybe?

A final in-game issue -- what happens if the unit takes 6 damage in an attack?  Does the extra 2 spill over or does the ability effectively prevent two points?  I'd hate to see this being used on light infantry facing a heavy cavalry charge...
David Humphrey está todavía en la Colina 217.
      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules

Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2011, 09:54:09 PM »
Yeah meant to be basically modify any one die.

That works for me.  If it modifies any die roll it can stand alone without the C+1, and might be a bit too good.  If it seems too good we can look at the version with an offensive component and a defensive one, in which case the C+1 would make sense.

(As an aside note, I have the impression that several people look at the C+1 that sometimes gets tacked on to army abilities as a bit cheesy.  I actually like it a lot.  It's often flavorful, since the unit has been given special attention by the commander and if it's erased for an effect there can often be tension over whether to use it or keep the courage boost...and I love decision tension.)

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Oy, I haaaate those type cards.  I'd much rather a weaker card that I could play by itself rather than a card that requires a discard.

For the record, I like Kevin's card, thematically.  Yeah it's a gamble, but I think it'd be fun to try out.

Yeah, I like his too.


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What if you just did +1 pow?  The idea is that it's a vital shot so do a point, cause a point.  Yeah +2 pow was too much, but +1 Pow might work.  You could still flub the to-hit roll (something I've done on many a Might/Force).

+1 attack is weaker than +1 power, but not so much so that Might is horrible compared with Force.  We can certainly test it.


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I think the Pow bump is what makes this card.  The goal of the card is to have this big @$$ huddoken! swing.

Heh.  Of course it is...but that doesn't mean it isn't over the curve.  (+1)+1/+1 is a big bonus.  The Undead get it if their unit is out of the green, which is on-flavor (temporary re-reanimation) and somewhat self-balancing since the unit can't be at its best.
David Humphrey está todavía en la Colina 217.
      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2011, 10:00:21 PM »
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I think the Pow bump is what makes this card.  The goal of the card is to have this big @$$ huddoken! swing.

Heh.  Of course it is...but that doesn't mean it isn't over the curve.  (+1)+1/+1 is a big bonus.  The Undead get it if their unit is out of the green, which is on-flavor (temporary re-reanimation) and somewhat self-balancing since the unit can't be at its best.

True but Final Push has the (+1)+1/+1 and its drawback is relatively minor.  It just means you only use it when you know you're going to be taking a check anyway in the Post-Combat Courage phase.  So it gets used a lot when you have 1 Green box left.  Or if you're pinched (and thus definitely take enough damage no matter what).

The drawback to the hudoken swing is that it requires a command action already spent on the unit.

Kevin

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2011, 10:04:21 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts, Chad!  I do aspire to be insane, but sometimes fall short.   :P

OK time for some tweaking--the auto-heal thing was bothering me too.

Let's try this one on for size:


Take 2:...

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Fight On!

Amazons will continue to fight, even when mortally wounded, until their foe is vanquished.

Spend 1 command action to mark all 3 boxes on the unit that is not currently in the red.   All wounds that the Amazon unit takes do not damage the amazon unit, but instead remove the checks from the boxes.

If the last box is ever unmarked, the amazon unit immediately takes 3 damage; this damage can cause rout checks.

At the end of your turn, if the unit has 1 or 2 boxes marked and the unit is unengaged, remark all boxes and do one damage to the unit for each box remarked.  This damage does not cause rout checks.  

Variant option:  this would be in addition to the above rules; I like it, but I could see others thinking it too complex when combined with the above (though IMHO it's fine):

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If your unit is engaged at the beginning of your turn, and your unit has 1 or 2 boxes marked, you may spend 1 command action to remark all boxes.  Do one damage to your unit for each box remarked; this damage does not cause rout checks.


The theory behind this is that the HOLY ****  :o factor is a lot less when your mortally wounded comrades fight on, then lay down at die a heroic death slightly later, is a lot less than just seeing them get skewered.

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First, I can imagine it being very confusing to people, especially new players.

I just made it a little bit simpler...I think.  Frankly, it'll look considerably simpler when the 3 check boxes are all on the unit.



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Second, the auto-heal thing seems very strange.  If the idea is that these mortally wounded heroes keep fighting until their enemy falls but then they finally drop, what is being represented by spending a CA to remark any unmarked boxes?  Inspiration to keep fighting the next unit, maybe?

Yeah, after I posted it that was bothering me too.  I just changed it to where you still take damage, but the damage does not cause rout checks.


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A final in-game issue -- what happens if the unit takes 6 damage in an attack?  Does the extra 2 spill over or does the ability effectively prevent two points?  I'd hate to see this being used on light infantry facing a heavy cavalry charge...

If a unit takes 6 damage in an attack, the first 3 unmark the 3 check boxes (which then immediately to 3 damage to the unit.)  The other 3 become 3 damage.  So having the boxes marked was useless.

Essentially, this ability is very powerful when your unit is in a slow grinddown fight, but vs. the BIG THUMP it's a wasted command action.  (As always, command actions are situational.).


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And now for some bickering:

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And you liked this one when I emailed you.

Corey, the one you emailed me said, "After I posted I thought another cool idea for a checkbox would be a 1-die Roll with the Blow / Follow Through.  Erase after the dice are rolled to wound (yours or his), to lower [or raise] a single die by 1."  Feel free to reread your message and confirm that.

I then said "That could work."  I then added "To flesh that out slightly more, that should count as a command card, and it should be playable after a roll to hit or to wound."

Then you post publicly that this is done after rolling "to hit"  rather than to wound.-- and then accuse me of changing my mind.   ???
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 10:29:19 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2011, 10:09:38 PM »
This probably shouldn't go here, but I wanted to discuss army abilities a bit more -- given that they seem to be viewed as "generally crappy but one time in ten they're really good".

My ideal for faction abilities is that they provide constant decision tension throughout the game -- every time a good player has to think hard whether to draw a card or use their army ability an angel gets its wings (and uses them to fly down and smash someone).

With the Hawks you obviously want to use Bravery at key points where you're worried your line will break, but any time your guys get close to taking a check it becomes something worth strong consideration.

With the Orcs you're much more situational...but that extra movement is sometimes good even when it isn't insane and I've seen plenty of people use Lash just for the extra attack die when they have a key battle they want to push through.

With the Undead you sometimes get an extra die, sometimes delay a hole in your line...and sometimes you just have extra CAs because it's late in the game.

Elves of Ravenwood -- perfect army ability.  :P

Dwarves -- it's worth something like 25-30 points to give a typical Dwarven unit an extra die.

Umenzi -- awesome ability, potentially too good but pretty much worth a full point of damage most of the time.

High Elves -- Precision sucks, but of course that isn't their army ability.

Lizardmen -- would be marginal but the C+1 makes it pretty solid.

M&M -- very solid ability.

Dark Elves -- who cares?  

I'm not writing all this to defend our designs but to argue that the goal for an army ability should be higher than "usually just bad but situationally really good".
David Humphrey está todavía en la Colina 217.
      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules

Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2011, 10:11:35 PM »
I need to go to sleep...more in the morning (including, I think, the next "official" draft of the army).

How is everyone enjoying this so far?
David Humphrey está todavía en la Colina 217.
      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2011, 10:54:26 PM »
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Corey, the one you emailed me said, "After I posted I thought another cool idea for a checkbox would be a 1-die Roll with the Blow / Follow Through.  Erase after the dice are rolled to wound (yours or his), to lower [or raise] a single die by 1."  Feel free to reread your message and confirm that.

Yeah that was a mistype on my part.  Mea culpa.  I'll break out the flails and hair shirt.    ;D


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Then you post publicly that this is done after rolling "to hit"  rather than to wound.-- and then accuse me of changing my mind.   

Okay calm down buddy.  Grab yourself a beer, I recommend Corona with lime (and not at all because I'm enjoying one myself).

I wasn't "publicly" "accusing" you.  I was "publicly" "teasing" you.  In this same thread you've called my ideas worthless and pathetic.  My assumption was you were being your usual opinionated self, and didn't take offense.  I ask the same benefit of the doubt, that after all the conversations we've been through, if it seems like I'm just tweaking you, then that's probably what it is. 

K, now let's kiss and make up so we can get back to the ideas.   :-*


Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2011, 11:01:51 PM »
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I'm not writing all this to defend our designs but to argue that the goal for an army ability should be higher than "usually just bad but situationally really good".

Sorry to veer into game design, but the faction abilities are quite good until you have your entire deck in your hand.  Because the balance on cards is you can't count on getting the right one.  Which works when players go right at each other.  Combat happens before there's time to draw every card.

But cleverly devious guys like Kevin have figured out that if you delay and draw every card you can you get a double whammy:  you have the right card for the right situation and because your discard pile becomes next turn's draw pile, you'll get them back next turn.

This is why I suggested to Niko that there be a hand limit.  He of course shot me down, but I still think it's a good idea to have a 15 card hand limit.  If you want to draw more cards, you have to discard 1 card (chosen blindly by your opponent) for every draw. In addition to making it impossible to have your deck in your hand, you start paying a premium in wasted CAs for the best cards.

Kevin

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2011, 11:05:18 PM »
I don't do beer, but am petting a cat.

I didn't call your ideas worthless, just the ability itself in the context of game play--there's a distinction.  In any case, no hard feelings.  I'm having fun here.

Plus you just gave me an idea for a command card.

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Hair Shirt:  play on an opponent unit.  While the hair shirt is in play, your opponent may not use command cards while this unit is attacking or defending, nor may the unit receive any faction ability which requires a command action.

The opponent may spend two command actions to remove the hair shirt.

 :P

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In other news, I forgot to comment on it at the time, but I do support your proposal to tone down the high ground bonus as it applies to javelins/pila.  Maybe have it still give +1 accuracy but not increase the range of any ranged attack whose normal range is under 7".
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 11:13:07 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill