Author Topic: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!  (Read 18363 times)

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2011, 07:08:44 PM »
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I'll also add that, in general, I REALLY like Corey's write up on the faction flavor!!!  The Goddess and the Oathbreaker...how cool is that?

So, just to be clear, in the Homeric Greek style theme I cooked up, I'm pretty blatant that the Goddess is a proxy for Artemis.  And with the emphasis on bows and centaurs in Chad's version, it seems to me that there's at least some allusions to Artemis.  My point is I say we run with it.


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Skeptical on point 3.  I like the idea of giving them Centaurs, and still feel like (6) 5/5 Centaurs would work fine.  But my feeling is that one unit of Centaurs is enough...Centaurfest 2012 could wear kind of thin.

Well, my thought was that basically the entire centaur nation is allied with the Amazons.  The elder ones serve as patrons and teachers to the Amazons still.  Basically I'm cribbing Chiron from Greek myth.  And so it follows that if you have old centaurs...you have younger ones.  The Ravenwood centaurs are the "wild offshoot" of the centaur race.


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Corey's suggestion works fine, I think, from a balance perspective, at least if you consider a sucky ability balanced in that the player can always just draw a card.  It's an ability which will end up going on your strongest units only, and I'm actually wondering if it's slightly weak

Heh, our perpetual disagreement on army abilities.  I think the option to be +1 skill or +1 pow is really nice.  It means that you're basically always going to be 3s to hit and 3s to wound regardless of facing Dwarves or High Elves, because you can tailor it to whomever you're facing.

My initial thought was to make it like lash, where it's a "this turn only" thing, but if we don't have it count like a command card then it's open to potential un-fun abuse (I'll make them +1/+0 and then play Force...).  Perhaps better to let them store it as a check-box but erasing it counts as playing a card.


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Fight On!

Amazons will continue to fight, even when mortally wounded, until their foe is vanquished.

(Corey cuts a lot)

Comments?

I'm gonna throw the yellow flag on this one.  Unnecessary complexity, 5 yard penalty, repeat the down.   :D

I see what you're going for but there's probably simpler ways to do it.  If you want them to fight to the bitter end, let them spend a CA to ignore Yellow/Red penalties for the turn.  If you want a gamble give them a Def +1/+1 but each wound counts as double.


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To balance this ability, give Amazon units only 3 green boxes.  I'm agnostic o 3-3-4, 3-4-3, or 3-3-3.

I think having them at 4/3/3 is fine for the moment.  Certainly no real reason to adjust it 'just cause' as there's a fair bit to this faction that can make it play unique without mucking with damage boxes right off the top.


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It's also tempting just to give the priestess 2 spells and a bow, which she could fire in lieu of a spell.

I think that is a phenomenal idea.  The priestesses of the Goddess are the leaders of the community and I think it'd be cool if they were all-rounders.  Even the priestesses know how to shoot, and they'd also have a retinue of the best guards in the community.  So they'd be a spellcasting Battle Squad with bows.  By contrast the Priestesses of the Oathbreaker would be purely a support unit.


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Madness is pretty good in theory, but in practice, I've heard from players playing the Lashmistress how they really dislike a powerful ability which is triggered by doing damage, as you can never rely on it, so you can't afford to make it part of your plan.

Hmmm.  Well the pay-off is an opponent losing 1 CA every time you hit them.  Against a Def 2/2 opponent, you'll do a point 8/9s of the time at short range (4/9s at long range).  So its almost a sure bet at short range, and if he drops a CC then you've accomplished your job anyway.


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Madness:  the enemy unit makes a courage check at -1.  If it fails, its orders are immediately changed to Hold and it takes 1 point of damage.  (This damage can cause a rout check.)

I don't like that for 2 reasons.  First, it's less effective than my idea.  A Cge 12 unit will pass 2/3 of the time.  Second, there aren't a lot of Cge bumping CCs to defend against it, so it'll be frustrating to play.  Whereas if a person really wants to try and defend against the spell-as-an-attack, he can.


I'll put my consolidated list of ideas for unit in another post.  This of course assumes Chad is interested in all this fluff and general theme.  Don't mean to hijack the thread/faction or anything like that.

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2011, 07:56:43 PM »
K, here's my suggestions based on the "Homeric Amazons" theme.  I'll put my thoughts in italics.

Faction Ability:  Arete.  Spend a CA to mark the unit's check-box.  You may erase before an attack it to give the unit O: (+0) +1/+0 or D: +1/+0.  This counts as playing a command card.

There is even a Greek word for 'excellence.'  It's like this stuff is writing itself!  I'm thinking of having it modify Offense or Defense because those are skill-based, not how tough or mighty you are, which seem to be more innate traits.

Amazon Sword - Core
O:(5)5/5  D:2/2  R:-  M:L  C:12
Hits: 4/3/3


Amazon Spear - Core
O:(5)5/5  D:2/2  R:L  M:L  C:12
Hits: 4/3/3
Spears.  Javelins.


Amazon Light Infantry - Core
O:(4)5/5  D:2*/1  R:L  M:SS  C:12
Hits: 4/2/2
Javelins.
*D: +1/+0 vs ranged.


Amazon Archers - Core
O:(5)6/5  D:2/2  R:4L  M:L  C:12
Hits: 3/3/2
O (-1)-3/-2 when engaged.


Amazon Horse Archers - Standard
O:(4)5/5  D:3*/1  R:3L  M:LL  C:12
Hits: 2/2/2
Cavalry, Ranged attack is LOS, no Move & Shoot Penalty.
*D: +1/+0 when charging.


Paragon Warriors - Standard
O:(5)6/5  D:3/2  R:-  M:L  C:14
Hits: 4/4/2

These are the "best of the best" among Amazons.  They're Standard to show that since it is a heroic society, they progress much quicker.  This unit would be an Elite choice in most armies.


Priestesses of the Goddess - Standard
O:(3)6/5  D:3/2  R:4L  M:L  C:13
Hits: 3/2/2
Spells:  I honestly don't know, but I think they should be blessings of some sort.  I'll just rattle off ideas:
-Auto-rally spell?
-Bonus toughness?


Elder Centaurs - Standard
O:(4)6/5  D:3*/1  R:L  M:LS  C:13
Hits: 2/2/2
Cavalry, Centaur Javelins, Skirmisher (!), does not cause Impact hits.  No Arete checkbox.
*D: +2/+0 vs ranged attacks.
For every Elder Centaurs unit, the player gains 1 Foresight and 1 Intelligence.

These are the wise old centaurs who act as council to the Amazon priest-queens, hence they grant Foresight/Intelligence, not the priestesses.  The Skirmisher label reflects that they're really clever and wily and so evade before you get to grips more than they're just uber-quick.  Hence their otherwise mediocre attacks/Pow/Toughness/Damage Boxes (they're old!).


Younger Centaurs - Standard
O:(6)5/5*  D:2*/2  R:L  M:LL  C:12
Hits: 3/2/2
Cavalry, Centaur Javelins, Impulsive, No Arete checkbox.
O:  (+0) +0/+1 when Charging.
D:  +1/+0 when charging.

The younger centaurs are full of piss 'n wind, hence they're impulsive.  Their use is a fast shock cavalry, instead of the hit & run style of the elders.


Choragos - Elite
O:(7)4/5  D:1/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Hits: 3/2/3
Fearless.  Always on Close.

These are the 'ecstatic warriors' still in the thralls of the Oathbreaker's frenzy.


Demi-Goddess Retinue
O:(5)6/6  D:3/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Hits: 4/4/2
Fearless.  No Arete box.  Any unit within 3.5" gets +2 Cge.

This is Demigoddess who's descended to fight with a chosen band of even-more-elite Paragons.  They don't have a checkbox because they're viewed as already as excellent as they can be.


Priestesses of the Oath Breaker
O:(3)4/4  D:1/2  R:-  M:L  C:13
Hits: 3/2/2
Spells:  Again, no real clue, but I'd think these gals would have the following:
CA-Sink:  I like the spell where you turn somebody to a Hold, because it functionally drains your opponent of a CA.
Buff+Penalty:  Some bonus spell that also makes it easier for you to be hit.  I really like lots of extra dice but a penalty to be hit.
Courage bump?
Vitality?  Ignore Red/Yellow?

With the spells, it's probably easier to design them in conjunction with the cards for a general theme.

Kevin

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2011, 08:18:08 PM »
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Madness:  the enemy unit makes a courage check at -1.  If it fails, its orders are immediately changed to Hold and it takes 1 point of damage.  (This damage can cause a rout check.)
I don't like that for 2 reasons.  First, it's less effective than my idea.  A Cge 12 unit will pass 2/3 of the time.  Second, there aren't a lot of Cge bumping CCs to defend against it, so it'll be frustrating to play.  Whereas if a person really wants to try and defend against the spell-as-an-attack, he can.

You're right:  that was a stupid idea.  I said I don't like abilities that happen some of the time, then immediately proposed one that happens some of the time.  What a brain fart!   :-[

How about if it does the following:
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Change the enemy SO to Hold and mark the opponent card.  Once an opponent card has been marked, it is immune to this spell for the rest of the battle.

So rather than waste a CA each turn, instead you get to waste one then start using your bow.

If that's too weak, then I'd say that the targeted unit also makes a morale check at -2 and if it fails it takes 1 point of damage.  (Yeah, I still think a morale-based attack should be key here.  It shouldn't be any harder to warp the mind of someone just because they swapped their leather armor for plate mail.)


While we're on that topic, a very simple, elegant spell could simply be:

Fear:  targeted unit makes a fear check.

(I'll leave it to other to decide if the fear should be that round only, or it it should last until the unit is engaged.)


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Well, my thought was that basically the entire centaur nation is allied with the Amazons.  The elder ones serve as patrons and teachers to the Amazons still.  Basically I'm cribbing Chiron from Greek myth.  And so it follows that if you have old centaurs...you have younger ones.  The Ravenwood centaurs are the "wild offshoot" of the centaur race.

I take back what I said before; that could be kind of cool....IF they're not all "we hit you with javelins and then we hit you with more javelins and then we hit you with a cav charge" Centaurs.  In other words, if you want to call them all "Centaurs" but some have different weapons/abilities that could work.  Let's see what others think.

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It's also tempting just to give the priestess 2 spells and a bow, which she could fire in lieu of a spell.

I think that is a phenomenal idea. 

*ding*  And another geek angel gets its wings.   ;)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 08:25:18 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2011, 09:58:36 PM »
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You're right:  that was a stupid idea.

M'eh, not stupid.  Just didn't work.  My (admittedly limited to Persia & Alexander) experience is that the early stages is a low-success-rate endeavor.

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How about if it does the following:
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Change the enemy SO to Hold and mark the opponent card.  Once an opponent card has been marked, it is immune to this spell for the rest of the battle.
So rather than waste a CA each turn, instead you get to waste one then start using your bow.

That violates a principle in the rules of not tracking effects across turns, something that I think is a good precept to follow.

I really like making it linked to a (2) 6/6 ranged attack.  That makes it statistically ~1 pt a turn at short range, but you're still rolling the dice.


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I take back what I said before; that could be kind of cool....IF they're not all "we hit you with javelins and then we hit you with more javelins and then we hit you with a cav charge" Centaurs.  In other words, if you want to call them all "Centaurs" but some have different weapons/abilities that could work.  Let's see what others think.

Check back a post, for my ideas...

Kevin

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2011, 08:00:34 AM »
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I really like making it linked to a (2) 6/6 ranged attack.  That makes it statistically ~1 pt a turn at short range, but you're still rolling the dice.


My earlier point stands:  if they're priestesses who are messing with the opponent's head, then their chance of success shouldn't depend on the thickness of the enemy armor.  Make it some sort of morale based one.  If you don't like the one-time-only thing, then it's easy enough to come up with another variation:  Make the morale check at -2, and if you fail take a point of damage and go on Hold.


Frankly, if the units have a bow, they shouldn't be doing more than the tiniest big of damage, if any, with their regular spells.  Otherwise the bow never gets used.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 10:22:18 AM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2011, 10:32:21 AM »

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My earlier point stands:  if they're priestesses who are messing with the opponent's head, then their chance of success shouldn't depend on the thickness of the enemy armor.

There's already precedent for that sort of thing with the Lashmistresses, which is just a game abstraction.  And since most stats in BGFW are non-linear abstractions to achieve the desired effect, I'm okay with it.


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If you don't like the one-time-only thing, then it's easy enough to come up with another variation:  Make the morale check at -2, and if you fail take a point of damage and go on Hold.

As I said before, that runs into the frustration of a player not being able to defend against it.  If it's a straight up attack, I have the option to play a Blue card. It's not a wise choice, but I can see someone doing it if they absolutely need all 4 CAs next turn for other things.


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Frankly, if the units have a bow, they shouldn't be doing more than the tiniest big of damage, if any, with their regular spells.  Otherwise the bow never gets used.

I'm imagining this spell going on the Priestesses of the Oathbreaker, who lack a bow.  So this would probably be their ranged attack.

Take a look at the units I put up.  I'm curious to see what you think.

RushAss

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2011, 11:18:41 AM »
Amazon Spear - Core
O:(5)5/5  D:2/2  R:L  M:L  C:12
Hits: 4/3/3
Spears.  Javelins.

I may have missed it in all of the texty hoopla, but how are we justifying Spear(wo)men with Javelins as well?  Isn't that a bit much to be carrying? 

To be clear, it was easier for me to quote Hannibal's text here.  I know it was in Chad's original post and I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on Hannibal here.

Demi-Goddess Retinue
O:(5)6/6  D:3/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Hits: 4/4/2
Fearless.  No Arete box.  Any unit within 3.5" gets +2 Cge.
Uhhhh.... What kind of armor are we dressing these chicks up in anyways?  I mean I go ga-ga over a killer heavy infantry unit just like the next guy, but would they even be able to move 3.5 when dressed up that way?  The Hawk Heavy Infantry sure can't. 
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Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2011, 11:26:50 AM »
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Amazon Spear - Core
O:(5)5/5  D:2/2  R:L  M:L  C:12
Hits: 4/3/3
Spears.  Javelins.

I may have missed it in all of the texty hoopla, but how are we justifying Spear(wo)men with Javelins as well?  Isn't that a bit much to be carrying?

To be clear, it was easier for me to quote Hannibal's text here.  I know it was in Chad's original post and I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on Hannibal here.

No problem on my end.  Really, whether they have javelins or not is a Chad answer.  I like the idea of spears w/javelins from a game play perspective.  As for it being much for them to carry:  not much different than Romans with swords, big shields, and pilum.  If you have doubled-ended spears (with a dulled tip at the butt end) you jam the spear in the earth and then throw your javelins.

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Demi-Goddess Retinue
O:(5)6/6  D:3/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Hits: 4/4/2
Fearless.  No Arete box.  Any unit within 3.5" gets +2 Cge.

Uhhhh.... What kind of armor are we dressing these chicks up in anyways?  I mean I go ga-ga over a killer heavy infantry unit just like the next guy, but would they even be able to move 3.5 when dressed up that way?  The Hawk Heavy Infantry sure can't. 

That's because the Hawk Infantry are wearing plain 'ol plate mail.  These chicks have literal armor of the gods.  A demi-goddess descended from the heavens, said to a group of Paragons "you are heroes worthy of ascending and any which fall beside me in battle will wake in the fields of Elysium, to the face of the Goddess herself.  Oh, and to help you out, here's some blinging shields, breastplates, and swords."  ;D

Corey

RushAss

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2011, 11:36:04 AM »
No problem on my end.  Really, whether they have javelins or not is a Chad answer.  I like the idea of spears w/javelins from a game play perspective.  As for it being much for them to carry:  not much different than Romans with swords, big shields, and pilum.  If you have doubled-ended spears (with a dulled tip at the butt end) you jam the spear in the earth and then throw your javelins.
I dunno, when I think Spears in this game I'm thinking something at least 7-8 feet long and kinda heavy.  They have a 2/2 defense, so they have certainly got shields and some kind of moderately heavy armor.  And then Javelins.  Now the Romans had the Javelins going on, but a short sword is a far cry from a spear.  I just see that as a lot of baggage.

That's because the Hawk Infantry are wearing plain 'ol plate mail.  These chicks have literal armor of the gods.  A demi-goddess descended from the heavens, said to a group of Paragons "you are heroes worthy of ascending and any which fall beside me in battle will wake in the fields of Elysium, to the face of the Goddess herself.  Oh, and to help you out, here's some blinging shields, breastplates, and swords."  ;D
Well if it's all about the bling, then I'm all for it  ;D 
And apparently the bling inspires those around them.
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Will still capture our imaginations"
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Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2011, 11:41:26 AM »
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I dunno, when I think Spears in this game I'm thinking something at least 7-8 feet long and kinda heavy.  They have a 2/2 defense, so they have certainly got shields and some kind of moderately heavy armor.  And then Javelins.  Now the Romans had the Javelins going on, but a short sword is a far cry from a spear.  I just see that as a lot of baggage.

It always amazes me what violates suspension of disbelief among gamers.   8)

Giant-sized bipedal humanoids? Check.

Armor based on upon faith?  No problem.

Necromancy?  Of course!

Warrior-women being able to use a spear and javelin?  OH NOW YOU'VE JUST GONE TOO FAR!!!

 ;D


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And apparently the bling inspires those around them.

Not the bling so much as the demi-goddess coming down from the heavens on rays of light with a celestial chorus as her soundtrack...

Chad_YMG

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2011, 12:05:50 PM »
A few quick thoughts:

On the spears, I wanted to do something a bit more than the vanilla spear unit -- but it may not really work.  If they're throwing their actual spears then that means they're carrying at least two heavy spears.  If they have something else (e.g. light javelins) then it would only make sense to give those to everyone in the army.

I really like the direction the flavor is going in...even if it's away from mine.  :)

The uber warriors can easily justify a 3 toughness while moving L -- we just assume some of the toughness is personal.  This is why Orcs infantry move L while Hawk heavies don't, why the Chosen have a 2 toughness despite having only limited armor and why Longbeards have a 4 toughness.  Whether it's divine blood, some mithril equivalent or religious fervor, it's not much of a stretch, IMO.

More later...
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Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2011, 12:41:00 PM »
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On the spears, I wanted to do something a bit more than the vanilla spear unit -- but it may not really work.  If they're throwing their actual spears then that means they're carrying at least two heavy spears.  If they have something else (e.g. light javelins) then it would only make sense to give those to everyone in the army.

I really liked it to, for the exact same reason.  However it may run into problems when you figure that yu're throwing 6 dice per shot.  Put these chicks on a hill and. . .oy. . .

One option is to give them the pila.  Probably the simplest option, but it cribs from the Punic Wars pretty hard.  Another option, and I kinda like this idea, is to think of the spears as a "combined arms" unit.  It's a unit of spear that has a small number of skirmishers attached to it.  Not enough skirmishers to be their own unit, but enough to give them a javelin attack.  Think of the javelin girls as having the same stats as the light infantry unit, but attached to the spear.  Almost like a spanish tercio.  I'm just thinking of the visual on the card of a tightly packed group of Amazons, with a few "clusters" of javelin throwers in front.

Writing it up could be be borrowed from Persia:  (3*) 5/5.  *(+3) +0/+0 when engaged.

Might get a little wonky when charging:  +3 for being engaged, -1 for charging.  Maybe a simpler way is to put the asterisk on the Range:  3.5"*  *ranged attack is (3) 5/5, Javelin.  Does suffer penalties for being in the Yellow/Red.


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I really like the direction the flavor is going in...even if it's away from mine.

Sweet.  Should I codify it and attach costs?

RushAss

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2011, 12:49:04 PM »
Warrior-women being able to use a spear and javelin?  OH NOW YOU'VE JUST GONE TOO FAR!!!
No Sir, YOU have gone too far.  You have insulted me grievously and I will not speak to you again for at least the next 4 minutes.

I really liked it to, for the exact same reason.  However it may run into problems when you figure that yu're throwing 6 dice per shot.  Put these chicks on a hill and. . .oy. . .
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. 

The combined arms thing is an interesting idea.  To represent this, keep the javelin or pila attack and simply remove an attack die from the engaged attack stat to reflect a percentage of the unit not having Spears.  So (5) 5/5 instead of (6) 5/5.  Make sense?
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Hannibal

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2011, 02:42:39 PM »
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The combined arms thing is an interesting idea.  To represent this, keep the javelin or pila attack and simply remove an attack die from the engaged attack stat to reflect a percentage of the unit not having Spears.  So (5) 5/5 instead of (6) 5/5.  Make sense?

Naw I'd leave it at 6.  Thematically, I'm thinking the "skirmishers" are actually the light infantry unit.  So they're still beefy enough to charge in with the rest of the unit, they just throw javelins before they charge. 

The other reason is as much game play.  Fundamentally javelins are an offensive weapon whereas spears are a defensive weapon.  If you combine the two you're pulling the unit in opposite directions.  Which is fine if they're normal spearmen, just with a ranged attack.  However, if you make them 5 dice, that mean's they'll be 4 dice on the charge which is just awful because instead of having 5 total dice with +1 Pow, you have 4 dice and then 3(?) javelin dice that don't get the Power bonus.  What makes it worse is that under normal conditions I can play 1 card to affect all 5 of the dice.  When the dice are split I don't get that same return.  So the end result is that you have a unit that's not really good at charging in but also not really good at sitting at taking the charge.  I'd much rather just pay the extra points to have 6 attacks and a javelin/pila.

Niko White

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Re: New Faction for Community Development: Amazons!
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2011, 02:49:00 PM »
On 3.5" and 3 toughness: in addition to what Chad said, I think the 2.5" move Hawk plate wearers set a bad precedent for gameplay, unfortunately; they just have so much trouble getting engaged that it can be very frustrating to use them in an offensive role.  Capping your line at 2.5" is usually no big deal (though can sometimes be really annoying) but not being able to FR 3.5" is a real annoyance (hence the Dwarf auto-sprint on routs and FRs.)  It's also been a long time since I actually looked at it, but my understanding at least was that despite the weight, well-made platemail wears quite well, because it distributes the weight well.  Certainly the renfaire jousters can dash about at a reasonable clip, and though I'll admit this bears no relation to history, this is still a fantasy faction ;)

On spear/javelins: There's an Aztec unit, the Arrow Warriors, that have both Spears and Pila; historically they actually represent the same weapon.  The Arrow Warriors carried three heavy spears, two of which they'd throw and one of which they'd then fight with.  I suspect in the case of an Amazon unit with a similar role we'd be talking about the same basic principle.  I went with Pila rather than Spears for the Arrow Warriors for various reasons, but in principle the Amazons could carry a few more, lighter weapons.