Author Topic: Fear (shaken) rule request  (Read 28236 times)

Kevin

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Fear (shaken) rule request
« on: October 17, 2010, 01:08:49 PM »
Could "shaken" please apply to engaged attacks only?

Having my pila nerfed on top of the regular attack nerfage gets tiresome, and you get a weird effect where if the Roman moves to 1 inch away from the dark elf then the dark elf charges the pila is fine but if the dark elf moves to 1 inch away from the Roman then the Roman charges the pila is nerfed.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 07:21:53 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

ajax98

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 06:17:16 PM »
 :)
I was waiting for some body to notice that. Something about being 'too close for comfort'.

I've been finding that the auto nerf 'shaken' is very powerful and downright annoying.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:29:39 PM by ajax98 »

Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 11:45:20 AM »
Change the Pila Attack to the end of the movement phase and, Voila, all fixed.

Torrg

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 03:34:10 PM »
I agree with Hamilcar, but I would worry about there being a "special" attack that is outside of the combat phase and any complications this may bring to the surface.
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Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 03:41:08 PM »
Sure, the worry is valid.
If it's only Pila, and the Pila rules are clean and clear, this should not be a problem.
Or change Fear/Shaken to only apply to engagements and not to pre-engagement missile attacks... but why shouldn't it!?!?

Regardless, the Pila using unit is FRing the fearsome/terrifying creature.  They should suffer the effect even when throwing.  Are you less terrifying because I hadn't gotten there yet, or is this the point... Fear is on the mind of the beholder... not in their sword.
If they SEE the fearsome enemy and plan to charge, they should suffer the effects.
What's the problem.
Logically, this is sound.
Too bad if it makes your play tougher.
What's all the whining about :-)

Torrg

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 04:23:34 PM »
Sure, the worry is valid.
If it's only Pila, and the Pila rules are clean and clear, this should not be a problem.
Or change Fear/Shaken to only apply to engagements and not to pre-engagement missile attacks... but why shouldn't it!?!?
Again, I agree with you. I would believe that all attacks (ranged or other) would be "Nerfed" because a creature is feared or terrifying. Why is it only engaged? It takes fearsome creatures to a new level YMG maybe did not want, but why wouldn't someone with a bow shut his eyes and have knocking knees when firing at Trolls or Undead Giants.

That is until a faction with 2/3's of the units causing fear came out in the DE.

But thats just me
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

Kevin

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 06:09:22 PM »
I'd argue that if something really scary is on the way in, then the men channel Stan's uncle, yell "It's coming right for us!" and throw their javelins/pila the very best they can. The best chance for an individual to survive is through a very good throw.

Once engaged, individuals within the unit are reluctant to get anywhere near the scary killing machine, and realize that their best chance of survival is by hanging back a bit and letting others do the primary fighting/dying.  Hence they hit with fewer dice (and, if they're really scared, they hit weaker).

Thus Hamilcar, if you want to talk "logic" rather than "whining" it makes sense not to nerf the ranged attack.

Your suggestion to change the order of play so that pila (and javelins) happen pre-combat phase would work fine.

Battleground tries to eliminate the sequence of play mattering.  e.g. if two units are both on Close they're both considered charging regardless of who made the final rush.  Why, then, do the men bravely throw their pila at full accuracy when the enemy unit moves last, but hesitate when they do?  If the thing is truly that scary, and on the way, and the men are somehow irrationally unaware of what will result in their individual survival, then shouldn't their ranged attacks (from 3.5" or less at least) always be nerfed?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 06:27:14 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 08:25:08 PM »

Honestly I think the right plan is probably just to change Shaken and Afraid from general to engaged modifiers, because it is much more elegant and portable than changing how javelins work.  Also, making javelins fire in the movement and command phase would require us either to stop them from causing rout checks, or to allow the possibility that someone routs from javelins before getting to fight a round of combat, and takes the free hits.  Both of these seem bad to me.

The only reason not to do this is that accursed Wave of Terror card from the Undead deck, but it already needs errata so as not to make the opponent's whole team Shaken, so I'm increasingly of the opinion that we should just re-write it to have pre-change functionality.

Chad_YMG

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 05:00:37 AM »
I'm ambivalent about this.  I think Fearsome was historically too expensive for what it did and now is about right, but I also don't like modifying attacks below three dice when unnecessary.

I definitely agree that Wave of Terror can't make units Shaken -- I thought we already made that errata?
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Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 10:04:40 AM »
@Kevin and Niko,

It makes total sense to apply the effects to only engaged.  This handles MANY of the issues very cleanly.  A sound solution for which I have no debate.

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2010, 12:25:01 PM »
I'm ambivalent about this.  I think Fearsome was historically too expensive for what it did and now is about right, but I also don't like modifying attacks below three dice when unnecessary.

I definitely agree that Wave of Terror can't make units Shaken -- I thought we already made that errata?

We did.  I meant that the only reason to leave Afraid/Shaken as general modifiers is that card, and if we have to errata it anyway, we could easily errata it more.

I do agree with Kevin that having fear/shaken apply to javelins creates an unfortunate turn order issue, which is something we generally try to avoid.

Torrg

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2010, 05:53:20 PM »
I'd argue that if something really scary is on the way in, then the men channel Stan's uncle, yell "It's coming right for us!" and throw their javelins/pila the very best they can. The best chance for an individual to survive is through a very good throw.
While I laughed at that episode and I thought about not replying... Kevin I really respect your opinion but this is wrong. If you have ever stared down a barrel and had to well. It is extremely hard and you never, never forget pulling that trigger.
But lets take this from a different way. I recently read an article about why countries after WWII studied why certain tank crews had the lion share of the kills in units. You would think the kills would be spread out evenly but they don't. One or two crews in a company are usually responsible for most or all of an individual action results. So what happens with the rest? They miss. Why? I want to answer by asking does anyone know why so many bullets are fired but their are so few casualties? I think in Vietnam it was estimated that about 5,000 rounds were fired for each "confirmed casualty" then this argues clearly against what you write. Soldiers suffer fear, ranged or engaged it's how they overcome it that makes the difference.

Now, I had my little therapy session and I'm good (nurse can I have my Xanax and Valium). So from a game standpoint it is clearly better to have fear only vs engaged, it is clean. I fully support this. But I think if YMG want more accuracy it should involve ranged attacks as well (I could argue against magical suffering it though).
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
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Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2010, 06:11:45 PM »
Quote
I'd argue that if something really scary is on the way in, then the men channel Stan's uncle, yell "It's coming right for us!" and throw their javelins/pila the very best they can. The best chance for an individual to survive is through a very good throw.

Yeah, if we're going to use real life as a basis then in fact the exact opposite happens.  People don't say "Oh.  That weird big gray thing with flappy ears, tusks, and a tentacle hanging from its head is scary.  I'd better take my time, aim careful and make sure to kill it because if it gets ear me, I'm gonna be really scared."

What they really say "SWEET ZUES'S BUNGHOLE, WHAT IS THAT THING!?  OH-GOD-OH-GOD-OH-GOD ITS COMING AT ME!!"  (throw)  "AH CRAP WE JUST PISSED IT OFF!!  I'M GETTING THE HELL OUT OF HERE!!"

Torrg

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2010, 09:42:25 PM »
Yeah, if we're going to use real life as a basis then in fact the exact opposite happens.  People don't say "Oh.  That weird big gray thing with flappy ears, tusks, and a tentacle hanging from its head is scary.  I'd better take my time, aim careful and make sure to kill it because if it gets ear me, I'm gonna be really scared."

What they really say "SWEET ZUES'S BUNGHOLE, WHAT IS THAT THING!?  OH-GOD-OH-GOD-OH-GOD ITS COMING AT ME!!"  (throw)  "AH CRAP WE JUST PISSED IT OFF!!  I'M GETTING THE HELL OUT OF HERE!!"

Hannibal summed up in 35 words what I stumbled through in over 200. uuummm What Hannibal said.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 09:05:18 AM »
If there's a desire to make Fear apply to range, then all range must be considered.  If I have archers or a war machine with 21" range and I fire at the Fear inducing unit, should I suffer?
If I have Pila with a 3.5" range on stand and fire, should I suffer?
If I use Javelin during a FR, should I suffer?

If it applies to one should apply to all?  For the sake of mechanics, Fear has never applied to missiles.  Javelin/Pila during FR is considered pre-contact missile fire, so it isn't affected.

But if we want to draw on realism, then it should relate to proximity.  If any change is considered, consider Fear having a "zone of control", if you will.  I might say 5" for the sole sake of affecting being targeted by missile troops (and spell casters), nothing else.

When I started playing BGFW last year, I was told the goal was to keep the rules clean and easy.  IMHO, this begins to add complexity which gets cumbersome and annoying.  I would vote to let Fear only affect engagements and let missile fire happen with no ill effects.