Author Topic: Fear (shaken) rule request  (Read 23217 times)

Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2010, 08:28:06 PM »
Torrg,
This would only apply if the unit engages and has missile at the same time, a la Centaurs, Pila, Javelin.
Not for standard missile troops as there's no engagement to trigger the Fear check.

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2010, 11:00:59 PM »

Afraid (and Shaken) are general combat modifiers (they're listed on that section of the card and in that rulebook section) so they apply to both ranged and engaged attacks.

But that's not the same as saying Fear works against shooting; virtually all of the time it won't.  Afraid and Shaken come up if your unit needs to take a Fear check, which normally happens in the pre-combat courage phase if you engaged a Fearsome or Terrifying unit this turn.  So most of the time, if you're shooting at a Fearsome unit, Dark Elf or Undead or whatever, you're not taking the Shaken or Afraid penalties.

There are two exceptions, which caused this debate in the first place: if you've got Javelins or a Javelin variant like Pila or Centaur Cheats, you take the Fear check before you throw, so you'll have whatever modifier on the free ranged attack as well as on your engaged attack.  And if you're facing an Undead player and they play Wave of Terror, all of your units make a fear check that phase even if you're just taking ranged attacks.

So I think the answer to your implied question is no, Fear isn't usually a problem for ranged troops and the Dark Elves are as vulnerable to shooting as any other 3/1's.

Torrg

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2010, 12:50:57 AM »
Oops, Thanks for the clarification  ;D
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RushAss

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2010, 10:06:00 AM »
I'm still scratching my head at the thought  of Centaurs being shaken by Dark Elf infantry units.   ???   :P
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Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2010, 12:09:28 PM »
Quote
I'm still scratching my head at the thought  of Centaurs being shaken by Dark Elf infantry units.

Because they're afraid of being captured and thrown in the Dark Elf circus.   ;D

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2010, 12:57:33 PM »
Because they're afraid of being captured and thrown in the Dark Elf circus.   ;D

I was going to say it was a magical glamor developed over centuries of dominating and intimidating the poor slaves, but I'm going to go with this one, because it is hilarious.

RushAss

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2010, 12:59:23 PM »
Quote
I'm still scratching my head at the thought  of Centaurs being shaken by Dark Elf infantry units.

Because they're afraid of being captured and thrown in the Dark Elf circus.   ;D
If this is the case, wouldn't Umenzi Giant War Elephants be refusing to take the field against the Dark Elves?  As would the Ravenwood Bear Packs.  Geez, we could go on and on with this!
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ajax98

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2010, 01:07:39 PM »
Scenario contest?
Dark Elf Circus Hunt!

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2010, 01:23:31 PM »
Quote
I'm still scratching my head at the thought  of Centaurs being shaken by Dark Elf infantry units.

Because they're afraid of being captured and thrown in the Dark Elf circus.   ;D
If this is the case, wouldn't Umenzi Giant War Elephants be refusing to take the field against the Dark Elves?  As would the Ravenwood Bear Packs.  Geez, we could go on and on with this!

Bear Packs are already afraid of Dark Elves.  Heck, even dinosaurs (except the T-Rex) are afraid of the purebloods!

gull2112

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2010, 06:21:51 PM »
 

Quote
If this is the case, wouldn't Umenzi Giant War Elephants be refusing to take the field against the Dark Elves?  As would the Ravenwood Bear Packs.  Geez, we could go on and on with this!

You're thinking Barnum & Bailey. A Dark Elf circus is a totally different show. Lash Mistresses were originally Dark Elf carnies (carnie being a double entendre with the latin root carne, or flesh).
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gull2112

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2011, 07:48:07 PM »
The problem I always had with Fearsome is the one turn time limit. I know this was done to avoid having to do any book keeping, and bravo that. but it is a severely limiting factor.

I would prefer just marking the card with an "F" by the combat stats and saying that it stays until the unit is out of that combat. This would be consistent with the rule about a unit not being able to turn to face an enemy who is engaged on its flank i.e. if you start combat in an off-balance state, then you remain off-balance through the entire combat.

A simpler and more fun solution in my opinion is that if a unit is charged by a fearsome unit and fails the fear test, it routs. There are  no other penalties or effects for fear. Furthermore, it is only if you are Final Rushed by a fearsome unit that you must test in the following pre-combat morale phase. You are fine if you Final Rush the fearsome unit.
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Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2011, 11:00:37 AM »
That last part is a wonky thing to deal with... If they FR you test, if you FR you don't. 
The point of the system is accounting for the simultaneousness of battlefield occurrences.  If it came down to who was moving, I'd be back to playing 40K (what a bloody NIGHTMARE!)
I am a BIG fan of how Fear is handled, especially in v3 rules.  It's minor enough not to unbalance the game and major enough to make players consider how to deal with it.  The lack of Fear resistant units is a bit of an issue for me, but I do understand its inclusion later in the rules has growing pains.

Having units route if failing the Fear check... well, if the Dark Elves aren't problematic enough, that would surely send them over the top.  If any army should have had so many Fearsome units, it should have been the Undead.  But that's a whole other thread.

Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 06:44:10 PM »
Figure I'd transfer my thoughts on Fearsome/Terrifying here from the uber-thread that developed from Kevin's ideas.  Let me explain the philosophy behind my idea:

I really liked Fearsome when the rules were first changed.  But at that time it really only affected a few big guys.  Usually you're not going to have more than 1-2 of those guys (unless you took the 5 Ogres + Giant M&M build, which had its own problems). It really fit and it really helped out most of the units that were Fearsome as they were usually Large and with high Pow but mediocre attacks and Off Skill.  These types of 'big meanies' simply felt underpowered already and this gave them a much needed boost.

But like many things, what is fine at 1-2 units get abusive when you spam them.  And a DE player has to go out of his way not to spam Fearsome.  Now you have a whole line of them with Fearsome.  None of them are Large.  None of them have the "must drop 2 CCs to play a single CC on the unit."  None of them have an absurd Pow 7 that ratchets up the cost (although many DE do have Offense & Pow 6/6, which does get pricey).

So now things that were okay start to unbalance.  You lose 1-2 dice on the charge turn, no big deal.  You lose 5-7 dice across your line and that starts to matter.  Worse, you have to check every time you charge these guys.  And while that's not a huge thing, it personally frustrates me to pinch a unit and have the pinching unit always lose an attack.  Or have a unit rout & rally, then when I charge it I lose that attack to Fearsome again.  That one could be a game changer. 

For example, say I have a unit that grinds down your fearsome unit.  Your unit routs but doesn't die.  Let's say its in the red and my unit is either in the red/yellow.  Your unit rallies, but I charge next turn.  You have -2 dice, but because you're Fearsome my unit suffers -2 dice (if Yellow) or -3 dice (if Red).  That's just wrong.

A smart person would ask "yeah, but how often does that happen?"  Well, again, when you're fielding 1-2 Fearsome units, not often.  It's what Niko would call a 'corner case.'  And he'd be right, which is why it wasn't a big deal before.  But when the whole line is Fearsome, this moves from 'corner case' to 'uncommon, but often enough to be frustrating.'  I've played 3 games with the DE since they were released, and its already come up once.  And with the Lord of Dusk's auto-rally ability, I think 1-in-3 occurrence ratio is not criminally far off.

So to summarize, in my opinion, the 'always (-1) -0/-0' on:

'big meanies' = good

'average line guys' = ungood.


Now Kevin has a solution, wherein a unit has a half-pass/fail option.  It works, but feels . . . clunky.  Also, and this is entirely secondary, it doesn't have the right theme.  What I think works is to link the 'always -1 attack' to some stat in a way to back-construct that correct theme.  That feels cleaner to me, but it'll also avoid that example I presented above.  So how about this:

Fearsome:  When a unit becomes engaged with a Fearsome creature, the unit rolls a Courage check.  If the unit fails it is Frightened [(-1) -1/-1] for that turn.  If the unit passes, but the Fearsome unit has more unchecked Green boxes than the unit, the unit is Shaken [(-1) -0/-0] this turn.  Units that do not take Courage checks or automatically pass Fear checks cannot be Shaken.

Terrifying:  When a unit becomes engaged with a Fearsome creature, the unit rolls a Courage check.  If the unit fails it is Frightened [(-1) -1/-1] for that turn.  If the unit passes it is Shaken [(-1) -0/-0] this turn.  Units that do not take Courage checks or automatically pass Fear checks cannot be Shaken.


This accomplishes the idea that if you go up against 'big meanies' like Trolls or Ancients, you're probably going to suffer the -1 attack.  However, as they take damage, they become much less scary.  A badly wounded Hill Giant isn't as frightening as before, and the guys charging in have a "c'mon lads, let;s finish him!" attitude.  By contrast, an Ancient Dragon or Hydra is always frakking scary.  When the men see them howling and lashing out in pain-filled rage, they're thinking "Umm, I think we just pissed it off..."

This'll also prevent the Dark Elves from automatically removing an attack across the whole line, which is Kevin's point.  The Dark Elves will need to weaken most units before they can accomplish that as they will usually have the same number of Green boxes.  And the units where they have less are usually lighter, less reliable troops.

The one place this falls flat is cavalry.  Low boxes is a defining feature, and at the moment I simply don't have a definite idea on this one.  Basically fearsome units will always strip an attack of cavalry and fearsome cavalry will never strip away an attack from non-fearsome units.  I'm okay with fearsome units spooking regular cavalry, as animals are relatively easily spooked (especially horses).  With Fearsome cavalry, maybe we just have an exception that they need only to equal the number of Green boxes to trigger the auto-Shaken.  I dunno.  If people really like the idea, then we can hammer it out.  But if folks think I'm way off base with this idea, well then there's no need.   8)

gull2112

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 08:07:11 PM »
I like your general idea, and your solution is accurate and precise, if a bit wonky itself, which you admit. My less wonky option would be that fearless work like it used to, and terrifying work like the new fearsome.

Or,

Since it is what causes the whole problem, remove the "fearsome" keyword from a number of the DE units. Off the top of my head I'd say only the Lords of Dusk, Drake Riders, and Dusk Lancers should keep their fearsome key word, and the rest should lose it and get a cost reduction, of say 25 points.
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BubblePig

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2011, 08:42:24 PM »
First of all, you don't want to give me a 25 point discount on DE line units. Second, I can't make the rest of my point because I need to change my pants.