Author Topic: Fear (shaken) rule request  (Read 26228 times)

lazyj

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 09:29:56 AM »
As one of the primary agitators for the Fear rule to be made stronger a while back, I am most comfortable with limiting it to engaged. I originally was looking for a simple and clear little adjustment so that things that were scary felt that way. But above all I don't want to bog down the game with endless little things exceptions to established rules.

So is there consensus that Ranged attacks (including anything that uses the Javelin / Pila rule) are not susceptible to the Shaken modifier? That would mean the updated rule text should be something like this (changes in bold):

Quote
2.2 Fear Checks
Your unit takes a Fear Check on the first round of engaged combat against a unit with the fearsome or terrifying keyword. Some command cards or unit abilities might call for fear checks at other times. Like rout checks, each unit can take only one fear check per phase, and the rest don’t carry over.

A unit that takes a Fear Check (pass or fail) gets the Shaken penalty (3.2.3.1.2) on all engaged attacksfor the rest of the turn. If the unit fails the check it also gets the Frightened penalty (3.2.3.1.2) on all engaged attacks for the rest of the turn. By the next round, the fear is assumed to have passed, and the unit fights normally unless it needs to take another fear check on that turn. If the unit didn’t need to take the check at all (because it was immune to the Fear) it doesn’t take any penalty.

Note: Because the shaken, frightened, and penalties apply only to engaged attacks, and routing units never attack, you don’t need to roll fear checks for units that already failed rout checks this phase. You also never need to apply shaken or Frightened penalties to any ranged or spell attack.
...

3.2.3.1.2 Shaken and Frightened
A Shaken or Frightened unit is afraid enough of the enemy that its attacks are less effective, but not so afraid that it has turned to run away. Usually, conditions occur as the result of a Fear Check  (2.5).  A Shaken unit gets  (-1) -0/-0. A Frightened unit gets (-0) -1/-1. These penalties, stack if appropriate. These penalties are never applied to any ranged or spell attack.

lazyj

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 09:39:42 AM »
Incidentally, after we clarify this whole ranged / engaged part, I'd love to address the fact that as currently worded, fear causing creatures take the penalty against other fear causing creatures.

So technically the Ancient Red Dragon takes a fear test against Skeleton Trolls? Hmmm... probably not the intent. It's not nearly as big an issue for me as it could be, but it would be worth discussing later.

Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2010, 10:24:35 AM »
Quote
As one of the primary agitators for the Fear rule to be made stronger a while back, I am most comfortable with limiting it to engaged.

Yeah despite my comments earlier I also think limiting Fearsome to an Enaged modifier is probably good.

Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 10:27:42 AM »
Quote
As one of the primary agitators for the Fear rule to be made stronger a while back, I am most comfortable with limiting it to engaged.

Yeah despite my comments earlier I also think limiting Fearsome to an Enaged modifier is probably good.



Quote
Incidentally, after we clarify this whole ranged / engaged part, I'd love to address the fact that as currently worded, fear causing creatures take the penalty against other fear causing creatures.

From the rulebook:  Units don’t need to make fear checks against units that aren’t any more scary than they are. For example, if two fearsome units (or two terrifying units) become engaged, neither makes a fear check. Fearsome units do need to make checks against terrifying units as normal.

So your wish is granted...   ;D

lazyj

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 10:43:59 AM »
I'm not sure the latest edition of the rules has this clarification? Maybe I'm just missing it.

Anyway, I don't want to de-rail too much the main focus of this thread which is "fixing" ranged attacks and fear interactions.

added
You know, I just realized that v3.0 of the rules lists the Engaged and Ranged modifiers separately, and true to form they do not include the Frightened / Shaken rules in the Ranged combat modifiers. So by rule... this is a non-issue?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:46:41 AM by lazyj »

Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2010, 11:03:09 AM »
You are correct, sir.

Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2010, 11:13:15 AM »
It's in the special rules section:

7.7 Fearsome and Terrifying
During the courage phase, if a unit became engaged with a fearsome or terrifying unit this turn, it must make a fear check (2.5,) with the normal consequences for failure.


(it says 2.5, but the Fear checks are in section 2.2)  Which is:

2.2 Fear Checks
Your unit takes a Fear Check on the first round of combat against a unit with the fearsome or terrifying keyword.

A unit that takes a Fear Check (pass or fail) gets the Shaken penalty (3.2.3.1.2) for the rest of the turn.


And for completeness, here's 3.2.3.1.2:
3.2.3.1.2 Shaken and Frightened
A Shaken or Frightened unit is afraid enough of the enemy that its attacks are less effective, but not so afraid that it has turned to run away. Usually, conditions occur as the result of a Fear Check (2.5). A Shaken unit gets (-1) -0/-0. A Frightened unit gets (-0) -1/-1. These penalties, stack if appropriate.


So functionally, its something that will only affect pila/javelin attacks as they're they only ranged attacks that happen when you're engaged.  But this is a pretty easy fix because they can just say its only affects engaged attacks.

Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2010, 01:33:48 PM »
7.4 Javelin Rule
Some units carry javelins or other ranged weapons that are launched as the unit charges.
The free attack is made at the start of the combat phase (or before free attacks if the javelin unit pinched an enemy unit and
it routs) and is treated like a normal ranged attack, e.g. only range attack modifiers are used.


...before free attacks if the javelin unit pinched an enemy unit and it routs...
This could only take place during the Pre-Combat Courage phase, which infers the missile attack is pre-contact.

...and is treated like a normal ranged attack, e.g. only range attack modifiers are used.
This is self explanatory and answers all questions.  It is not influenced by Fear.

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2010, 04:26:16 PM »
7.4 Javelin Rule
Some units carry javelins or other ranged weapons that are launched as the unit charges.
The free attack is made at the start of the combat phase (or before free attacks if the javelin unit pinched an enemy unit and
it routs) and is treated like a normal ranged attack, e.g. only range attack modifiers are used.


...before free attacks if the javelin unit pinched an enemy unit and it routs...
This could only take place during the Pre-Combat Courage phase, which infers the missile attack is pre-contact.

...and is treated like a normal ranged attack, e.g. only range attack modifiers are used.
This is self explanatory and answers all questions.  It is not influenced by Fear.

It should, I suppose, say "only ranged and general" or "ranged, not engaged, modifiers" or the like.  General combat modifiers, which is where Fear effects live at the moment, apply to all combat.  (That's also where the yellow/red modifiers apply, so if fear didn't apply to javelins, neither would those.)

Currently Javelins can happen one of two times: either in the combat phase before any other attacks, or in the precombat courage phase if and only if they pinch someone who routs.

Again, we could change fear effects to be engaged only modifiers, which would be my favored way to change it so they don't apply to javelin attacks, but then we'd need to further errata Wave of Terror, or make it worse.

Hannibal

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2010, 04:26:42 PM »
Quote
...before free attacks if the javelin unit pinched an enemy unit and it routs...
This could only take place during the Pre-Combat Courage phase, which infers the missile attack is pre-contact.

Except that free attacks comes after Fear checks, so the unit would be shaken.


Quote
...and is treated like a normal ranged attack, e.g. only range attack modifiers are used.
This is self explanatory and answers all questions.  It is not influenced by Fear.

Except that Frightened/Shaken is not a ranged or engaged modifier.  It is a general modifier, just like being int he Yellow/Red.  And to incur a Fearsome check is you to be engaged during the M&C phase.


Now don't get me wrong, I agree with the intent that its probably too much for Fearsome to apply to Javelins/Pila.  Its just that currently, under the rules, it clearly does.

Chad_YMG

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2010, 01:47:11 PM »
I do agree with Kevin that having fear/shaken apply to javelins creates an unfortunate turn order issue, which is something we generally try to avoid.

We don't always avoid it, however -- the Orc global command card that costs a command action (I'm at work, don't have it on me) is much better when two lines meet on your turn than on your opponent's.

I'm torn on this...the simplest thing to do (rules-wise) is to let Fear work on javelins.  You become shaken/afraid before the combat phase and the javelin attack happens during the combat phase so by then it's affected you.  I also think that's realistic.  The turn issue can be flavor-spun, perhaps not in a way that is completely satisfying.
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Hamilcar

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2010, 02:16:40 PM »
@Hannibal and Niko:
Thanks.  I stand corrected and solidly converted.  By the rules, as you've shown more accurately then I, Fear should apply to Javelin/Pila.
So be it.  Thanks for setting this straight.

Kevin

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2010, 04:23:53 PM »
How about making "shaken" an engaged-only modifier while keeping "frightened" as both?

That way, the Undead Wave of Terror card functions as it always has.

I'm not bothered by the chance that the Romans blow a fear check and get nerfed across the board.  The annoying part is knowing that your brave Extraordinarii are guaranteed to get 6 dice, down from 8, no matter what.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Niko White

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2010, 04:32:01 PM »
How about making "shaken" an engaged-only modifier while keeping "frightened" as both?

That way, the Undead Wave of Terror card functions as it always has.

I'm not bothered by the chance that the Romans blow a fear check and get nerfed across the board.  The annoying part is knowing that your brave Extraordinarii are guaranteed to get 6 dice, down from 8, no matter what.

That doesn't exactly work because currently if you blow the fear check you get both Afraid and Shaken, rather than one or the other, so Afraid is currently just (-0) -1/-1, though that would be an easy tweak.

Torrg

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2010, 08:05:04 PM »
For my clarification
Fear is applied to both Range and Engaged attacks? While I agree in theory and I am in favor of fear = range, do the Dark Elf unbalance this?
Against an army like the Undead where you would face maybe 4 units with the  Fear attribute (Insert Andrew Gross's Army here, and they were large targets) that was bearable as it was over 1300 points in units, and left weak core units as filler. Now with the release of the Dark Elves which have 8 fear/terror causing units (for 2000 pts you could choose 6 Highblood Blades, 2 Standard Bearers and 4 Pain Touch). I can take a whole army of fear causing units and ensure my opponent is A(-1)0/0 and cause multiple dice rolling checks for an additional A(0)-1/-1 each turn while I close.
Or worse Have the DE take 2 Dusk Lords, 2 Coven, 3 Levy and 1 Slave, This army can stand on the back edge of a board and shell out A(10)7/7 attacks at 21". At an average of 3.5" movement for infantry, this equals at least 6 turns of devastation rained down (add the fact I would have up to 20 command cards in my hand at this point and added A(3)6/6 from the coven once at close range and this should decimate any advancing balanced army as it tries to close and would be almost immune to range attacks in return. So I should have 40 attacks at (10)7/7 and at least 1 turn at close range of A(28)6/6 (these can have CC's played on them too). Against a 2/2 defense this is upwards of 38 wounds inflicted before the lines meet...OUCH.

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