Author Topic: Fear (shaken) rule request  (Read 26277 times)

Kevin

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2011, 05:31:56 PM »
Quote
Is there any way to consolidate the large creature rules with high ground?  Large = 10', Colossal = 20'?

One would assume that being taller is already accounted for in the creature's stat bar.  Since after all 95% of the time it'll be towering over a normal-size opponent.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

UvulaBob

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2011, 05:39:15 PM »
Breaking with all previous rules and venturing into fully known territory, not to mention tossing a huge amount of back-and-forth into the trash, for the sake of a prettier word seems a bit excessive, no?

That said, I don't think anybody is married to the word "outreached"  that was an off-the-cuff suggestion to replace "shaken" now that it has nothing to do with a unit's fear (or even it being immune to fear).  If you have a better word, fire away!

I can't think of a better word, though! It's why I want to come up with something completely new to define the word I can think of. What's wrong with that?  :)

RushAss

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2011, 05:51:18 PM »
Quote
Is there any way to consolidate the large creature rules with high ground?  Large = 10', Colossal = 20'?

One would assume that being taller is already accounted for in the creature's stat bar.  Since after all 95% of the time it'll be towering over a normal-size opponent.
I'm also thinking that there are a few exceptions to this, like The Abomination which is essentially a field of... stuff.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
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wulfgar61

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #108 on: April 06, 2011, 09:22:38 AM »
For the record, I also don't like weakening Fear checks by having them only when the fearsome unit is charging.  I think there should be a possible effect for troops being ordered in against a fearsome unit, even if that unit is already locked in combat.  With a successful courage roll, there is no effect.


I agree with this point.  Fearsome and Terrifying was made stronger with the the shaken/afraid distinction and instead of simply correcting for that the new rules seem to take it completely the other way and nerf it even from its original version. 

Was it always considered to powerful and if not why not leave the check on engagement?

wulfgar61

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #109 on: April 06, 2011, 10:04:47 AM »
And to clarify I would rather whatever change occured it apply to both being changed and charging.

Kevin

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #110 on: April 06, 2011, 11:06:14 AM »
Wolfgar, feel free to spend an afternoon reading back posts.  But here's the short version of the history, since you asked why.

About a year ago, there was no "shaken" condition.  "Fearsome" meant you roll a fear check, which gave (-1) -1/-1 if you blew it, and no penalty if you passed.  At the time, the sense of the room, was that large units typically weren't worth their cost. 

At the time, all large units were fearsome, and all fearsome units were large.  Thus, it was decided to improve large units by making fearsome more powerful--making the -1 die always apply ("shaken").

...Then, shortly after this came out, the Dark Elves, who were fearsome but not large, appeared.  And again, the sense of the room was that the Dark Elves were a bit too good compared to other units of their price.  Compare, for example, Highblood Duskblades with High Elf Swordsmen:  they have identical hit points and morale, and do identical damage to each other, but the High Elf Swordsmen will lose that die on the critical first turn.

Thus, we decided to make the -1 die factor in with large rather than fearsome as a way to help the big guys while keeping Dark Elves in balance. 

The "Charging" thing was Chad's suggestion.  It gives better flavor, again helps nerf Dark Elf stand-and-shoot armies, and prevents the pure silliness that results when your guys rout an opponent, charge into it as it rallies with 1 red box left, and lose a die because they're afraid.

I personally like the new fear rules a good deal.  Again, feel free to read all the old posts.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

wulfgar61

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2011, 11:20:23 AM »
I have read the old posts and didn't really see a lot of discussion around the change from engaged to charging.  I saw Chad's comment, but again still didn't feel that was an overwhelming endorsement of the change.

With the new rule (see below) you have in effect nerfed the fear rule from its original state for even the big guys.  I guess that is what is most confusing to me.  If the original change to fear was to help big guys out how does limiting its use by half but given their opponent -1 die when it is used help them out?

So the original rule gave them a shot at the -1/-1/-1 regardless of who attacked. 

Now they have a gaureenteed -1/0/0 and a shot at -2/-1/-1 but only on their charges.  I don't believe this is actually worse than the original rule for the big guys and don't believe I am the only one who feels that way.  So my hope would be that the issue isn't fully closed just yet.

Its still not clear how this helps the big guys even by nerfing the fear rule that was originally thought to be too soft for them. 
2.2     Fear Checks
     Fear checks are now only required when charged by a fearsome or terrifying unit. 
     If your unit fails a required fear check, it is “Frightened” and gets a (-1)/-1/-1 penalty for the remainder of the turn.  A unit that passes the fear check suffers no penalty.
     A unit that normally “Passes all Courage Checks”, “Passes all Fear Checks” or has no Courage level number is immune to the Frightened penalty.
     Frightened penalties only modify engaged attacks, not ranged attacks (including javelins & pila).
     The concept of a unit being “Shaken” (3.2.3.1.2) has been removed from the game.

Outreached – New Rule
     If a unit larger than your unit charges you, you are “outreached” and get an automatic (-1)/0/0.  This penalty is in addition to any Frightened penalty that unit may suffer.  The outreached penalty only modifies engaged attacks, not ranged attacks (including javelins & pila).


Zelc

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2011, 11:37:44 AM »
Well, large units would most likely be on a Close standing order anyway, right?  So the only time the new rule hinders them is if 1) they get flanked, 2) they were just rallied, or 3) the rare times they're not a Close SO.  Remember units are considered charging if they become engaged (on their front?) with a Close standing order even if it's on your opponent's turn.

Also keep in mind a unit with 12 Courage will fail fear checks in the green only 25% of the time.  A guaranteed (-1) -0/-0 with a shot at (-2) -1/-1 most of the time is much better than a shot at (-1) -1/-1.

RushAss

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2011, 12:03:56 PM »
With the new rule (see below) you have in effect nerfed the fear rule from its original state for even the big guys.  I guess that is what is most confusing to me.  If the original change to fear was to help big guys out how does limiting its use by half but given their opponent -1 die when it is used help them out?

So the original rule gave them a shot at the -1/-1/-1 regardless of who attacked. 

Now they have a gaureenteed -1/0/0 and a shot at -2/-1/-1 but only on their charges.  I don't believe this is actually worse than the original rule for the big guys and don't believe I am the only one who feels that way.  So my hope would be that the issue isn't fully closed just yet.

Its still not clear how this helps the big guys even by nerfing the fear rule that was originally thought to be too soft for them. 

As long as you don't let your big guys get flanked this actually is helpful for the big guys.  And losing an attack die on the charge is big.  Zelc nails it below:

Also keep in mind a unit with 12 Courage will fail fear checks in the green only 25% of the time.  A guaranteed (-1) -0/-0 with a shot at (-2) -1/-1 most of the time is much better than a shot at (-1) -1/-1.

Yup, and I think that's the point here.  The charge turn is the single most important turn for damage and penalizing an enemy on that turn is always a significant help.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

jhenke

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2012, 02:27:44 PM »
OK, second post in freaking forever (in one day even) as I try to get my mind back into the flow. I was also an early proponent of the shaken idea (if memory serves).

I like the changes suggested here over all, but I really need to play it out (I assume you all have as it's a very old thread); since much playing has happened since the last post here, I assume it's all agreed to and in the new rules online.

I'd suggest instead of "overreach" you go with "overrun". A larger mass with weight will plunge further into an enemy rank in my mind. Reach has nothing to do with it...weight, impact, and displacement come to my mind...maybe even "trampled".

That's all I have to add so late to this thread. :)

Kevin

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2012, 02:47:15 PM »
Welcome back!  A whole lot has happened in the last year, including new rules.

Below is a link to a google document which tracks every approved rule change.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K96P5uSvfX3KDDnEuJmyw4IP1Tlv0i-rpsdvoyhrBR0/edit?hl=en_US

At the moment the term is outreached.  Remember, the rule reflects the little guys having a less good attack, not the big guy hitting harder (which "overrun" or "trample" would suggest).
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

jhenke

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2012, 03:47:39 PM »
Thanks for that link Kevin! :)

The word choice isn't super important to me in the end, it just becomes a keyword for a state in truth. I mean it could even be as simple as disrupted, scattered, whatever. LOL. Don't really care.

Bookmarking that link and reviewing the changes... :)

Kevin

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2012, 04:10:42 PM »
And in other news, check out the Championship Tournament thread in the "Conventions" section, in case you're in the area or willing to travel.  :)
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

jhenke

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Re: Fear (shaken) rule request
« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2012, 05:03:31 PM »
Going to check now. :)

Probably can't get anywhere anytime soon, but still have to see what's going on with everyone.