Author Topic: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)  (Read 7531 times)

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
I was looking at Carthage's units, and comparing them to Hawkshold.

Comparison #1:  Carthaginian Spearmen vs. Hawkshold Spearmen


Identical in all respects (dice, attack, defense, morale, speed), except for 2 differences.  #1 is that Carthaginian spearmen aren't core, which shouldn't affect their point cost.  #2 is that Carthaginian Spearmen have 4 green, 3 yellow, 3 red boxes, while Hawkshold has 5 green, 2 yellow, 3 red.  (In other words, to make a Hawkshold spearmen into Carthaginian, turn one green box into a yellow.)  This makes Hawkshold spearmen slightly better, and indeed Hawkshold Spearmen cost 220 points vs. 214 for Carthaginian. 

Perfectly reasonable.  :)


Comparison #2:  Scutarii vs. Hawkshold Swordsmen.


Identical in all respects (dice, attack, defense, morale, speed, and they're both core) except for 2 differences:  The first is that Scutarii have one fewer green box, and one more yellow box, than Hawkshold Swordsmen.  (Just like in the comparison above).  This on its own should make Scutarii 5-6 points cheaper.  The second is that Scutarii get a pila attack (= a free shot before engagement at (3)5/6 ), while Hawkshold Swordsmen get...nothing.  IMHO this free pila attack adds around 15% to the value of a unit--look at Umenzi Javelineers (184) who cost 20% more than otherwise-equivalent Umenzi Warrriors (153).  A pila attack at  (3)5/6 isn't quite as good at a javelin throw at (5)5/5, but it's pretty close.


Now let's compare points: 

Hawkshold Swordsmen:  197
Scutarii:  181.

What the...?  ???  So evidently, compared to Hawkshold Swordsmen, the Scutarii lose 6 points for the yellow (instead of green) box, and then lose an additional 10 points because they get a free pila attack?  :P

Would someone care to explain this, or is there an errata on the Scutarii card which I am unaware of?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 10:24:59 AM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

ajax98

  • Guest
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 03:52:36 PM »
Ahhh, the number crunching starts.
 :D

gull2112

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4197
  • From the RUSH faction
    • Meditations on Brain Injury
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 04:04:23 PM »
 If I were in your shoes I would note the point discrepancies, keep it a secret, and be sure and play Hawkshold whenever I was facing Carthage. That secret edge could garner you some phat lewt at any con.  ;)
"Rules are only as good as the book they're bound in."
http://gullsbattleground.blogspot.com/

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 04:24:32 PM »
Hey, I'm about to take Carthage vs. Jaime's Romans in a mini-campaign, and will happily crush him with 60+% Scutarii armies every time (The Scutarii seem underpriced when compared to other Carthaginian units as well, such as only being 21 points more than the pathetic Gallic Warriors.), but I'd rather fight clean.  ;)

My best guess is that the Scutarii were supposed to be 2/1 on defense rather than 2/2, as their "equipment" flavor text doesn't mention much in the way of body armor like 2/2 human units typically have.  For example, the Libyan Foot (also 2/2) are listed as having "helmet, scutum (= shield), cuirass (= chain shirt), and greave" while the Scutarii are listed as having "sinew cap, long shield." 

« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 04:47:55 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Chad_YMG

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2348
    • Your Move Games
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2009, 05:02:32 PM »
I'm at a bit of a loss.  I'm fairly sure that we screwed up, but not sure where.  I'll have to dig into the spreadsheet (which I don't have at the moment) but my guess is that Kevin is correct -- we priced them as 2/1 and then either made them 2/2 by typo or else changed them deliberately but missed updating the point cost.  Either way, I need to clean some egg off my face.
David Humphrey está todavía en la Colina 217.
      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules

ajax98

  • Guest
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 05:38:47 PM »
I have to agree with Kevin, looking over the various stats, something seems a bit off.

lazyj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 10:20:49 AM »
Maybe in terms of point cost they're cheap, but man have they folded on me like tissue paper. I tend to avoid them in Carthage because the Libyan Foot are so much better and because I like the flavor of the Gallic Warriors. When I have used Scutarii they really haven't done well - I don't trust them yet when played within the Carthage army.

gull2112

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4197
  • From the RUSH faction
    • Meditations on Brain Injury
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 10:09:44 PM »
The other thing that adds value to Hawkshold spearmen or Hawkshold anything, is the army ability that adds three to their morale. About the only way you can get those guys to break is to have lazyj roll their courage checks. :D
"Rules are only as good as the book they're bound in."
http://gullsbattleground.blogspot.com/

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3855
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 11:39:15 AM »
For now, I think we'll house rule it that the Scutarii should have 10 points added to them, so 191.  This may still be too low, but at least it's some help.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 12:30:53 PM »
Quote
For now, I think we'll house rule it that the Scutarii should have 10 points added to them, so 191.  This may still be too low, but at least it's some help.

Until the Scutarii show up on the errata page, the easiest fix is to make 'em 2/1 on defense and keep their same price.  However, if you are attached to 2/2 Scutarii, consinder that Italian Swordsman who are equivalent to Italian Spearmen in every way except for their weaponry (swords & pilas vs. spears), cost 3 points more than Italian Spearmen.  (174 for Swordsmen, 171 for Spearmen).

Since 2/2 Scutarii are similarly equivalent to Carthaginian Spearmen in every way except for weaponry (swords & pilas vs. spears), they should similarly cost 3 (or maybe 4) more than Carthaginian Spearmen.  Let's call it 3, so 214 + 3 = 217.

In other words, add 36 points to their current cost (181) and you're in the right ballpark.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 05:36:35 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

lazyj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 01:00:01 PM »
I like sticking them back to 2/1. But as has been noted elsewhere, in terms of Chad's preference:

errata'd front of the card < errata'd back of the card.

Flavorwise it seems like the majority of the historical armies would be 2/1 instead of 2/2. Only the upper tier infantry troops - Principes, Libyan Foot, Triarii, Extraordinarii, Hanibal's Elite - would be well armored. Scutarii seem to be roughly equivalent to Italian Swordsmen when comparing the factions side by side, and also when comparing armor on the cards. It all seems to indicate 2/1.

But at the same time I feel like Carthage is super strong already and doesn't need a line infantry unit to be at that price. Raising it up by 35 some odd points makes perfect sense to me, and helps make the adjustment to the back of the card only.

gull2112

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4197
  • From the RUSH faction
    • Meditations on Brain Injury
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 06:38:20 PM »
Quote
But at the same time I feel like Carthage is super strong already and doesn't need a line infantry unit to be at that price. Raising it up by 35 some odd points makes perfect sense to me, and helps make the adjustment to the back of the card only.

I disagree. Lowering the defense to 2/1 is the original intention and actually causes the least disruption. While changing the reverse side may make for a more pleasing esthetic, it causes more anomalies because it is ahistorical and changing the cost is pretty major. I note that they didn't change the cost of skellies. I would suggest actually playing some games with the units as originally intended and then see what we think.

Lazyj and I are going to have to play a kingdoms campaign with the Scutarii and with special emphasis on skirmishers before we can weigh in with anything more than guesses and whims. Are you up for it?
"Rules are only as good as the book they're bound in."
http://gullsbattleground.blogspot.com/

ajax98

  • Guest
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 03:00:58 AM »
I'm more inclined to favor errata to make the unit 2/1 if that was the design and cost point.

More accumulated data is also good.

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3855
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 12:22:58 PM »
I also favor the 2/1 fix as 35 points is way too much to add IMO.  That unit at a 2/2 defensive stat aint worth 217 points, folks.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

Kevin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
Re: Scutarii appear to be very underpriced! (Carthage vs. Hawkshold compared)
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 08:43:53 PM »
Just to pile on here in support of 2/1 defense, I looked up Scutarii in the design notes.  The last paragraph (PW Scenario Booklet, page 16-17) reads (underline added by me):

Quote
The Scutarii were tribal people who often fought individually as mountain skirmishers and, like the Gauls, wore little or no armor.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill