Author Topic: Faction Re-release Ideas  (Read 1512 times)

Kevin

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 01:58:38 PM »
Not really here-or-there, but whichever box gets knocked off Slave Takers there's precedent.

3-2-1:  Many!  Hawkshold, Stags, pretty sure Skeletons and Carthaginian cav.
3-1-2:  Roman cav.
2-2-2:  Antonians.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 02:37:18 PM »
Not really here-or-there, but whichever box gets knocked off Slave Takers there's precedent.

A list I could come up with:

3-2-1:  Hawk Light cavalry (soon to be Lancers), Stag Cavalry, Spanish Cavalry, Gallic Cavalry, Thessalian Cavalry, Sarrisophoroi

3-1-2:  Roman cav (Equites, Italian Cav, Vet Equites), Jun Horse Archers

2-2-2:  Antonians, Hawk Scouts, HE Bowriders, Wildmen Horse Archers, Allied Greek Cavalry, Satrapal Cavalry, Saka Horse Archers

2-2-1:  Skeleton Cavalry, Wolf Riders

This is another reason I like the 3-1-2 stat boxes.  Not only does it dovetail pretty well with their attack dice & the theme of "bully Dark Elves," but it's design space that isn't crowded.

Kevin

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 02:59:41 PM »
Yeah, I like 3-1-2 as well.

Plus the flavor:  "Hey.  WE take the slaves!  These people are fighting back and we're probably going to lose--screw this!"   ;D
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3848
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2018, 03:02:02 PM »
2-2-2:  Antonians, Hawk Scouts, HE Bowriders, Wildmen Horse Archers, Allied Greek Cavalry, Satrapal Cavalry, Saka Horse Archers

You made a typo here.  It should read:
2-2-2:  Awesome Death Rockets that thankfully allied themselves with the Dwarves, Hawk Scouts, HE Bowriders, Wildmen Horse Archers, Allied Greek Cavalry, Satrapal Cavalry, Saka Horse Archers

I'm a fan of knocking a yellow hit box off of the Slave Takers.  3-1-2 would work IMO.  The crummy part about that is that it would actually make the bastards cheaper and knock them below 170 points.  If we wanted to keep the unit at a higher cost perhaps we entertain the thought of adding an attack die to the profile to up it to (5) 5/5.  That would certainly give them a glass cannon feel.

I've been ruminating on the Lashmistress.  Not so much on the mechanics of the unit itself, but what it actually represents.  I've always had a hard time swallowing the concept of a single (or handful of) sorcerous lady (or ladies) with an escort of soldiers performing the way it does on the battlefield.  What is it that causes an enemy unit to head straight for them?  The term "Siren's Song" implies a magical charming type of effect.  I can totally get behind that in a role playing situation but in a war game it just feels out of place.  Like a nice try at flavor that sort of fell flat.  I'm thinking it may be worth exploring a replacement unit.  That would be challenging because I'd like to keep some sort of sourcerous feel to them but they can't step on the toes of the Lords of Dusk or the Coven.  I'd like to preserve the line unit/special magic utility unit feel.One idea I had was that a target enemy line unit would become Impulsive once the range to the HE unit reached 7".  And maybe we'd give it something very similar to a Crossbow type ranged attack to preserve the feel that the sorcerous energies do more than just effect the movement of enemy troops, but they do some damage as well.  Any thoughts on that?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 03:03:33 PM by RushAss »
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

Kevin

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 10:02:45 AM »
IMHO the single, clean fix is fine.  They'd still be the most expensive 4-die cavalry unit in the game (not counting HE chariots), so certainly wouldn't be overpowered for their cost.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 12:30:08 PM »
Yeah, I agree with Kevin.  They're still 170pts at 3-1-2, so even though the Slavetakers are still a bit min-maxed, they can easily be neutralized by a cheap spear unit.

I still think when it comes to Dark Elves there needs to be a more pronounced game effect of that caste system they have.  One thing I floated a while back was that they have a Command Card limitation on units of weaker blood, to show that the DE lords really don't care about their underlings.

Slaves would have no checkbox ability (like now) and you can't play any cards on them.

Lowbloods have no checkbox and pitch-to-play any Command Card on them.

Halfbloods have Pain Touch, and pitch-to-play Red or Blue Command Cards on them.  (Green is no penalty)

High Bloods have Pain Touch, and pitch-to-play Blue cards.  (Red & Green is no penalty)

Purebloods:  have Pain Touch & no CC restrictions.


(This isn't a concrete proposal, just an example)

Fingolfin

  • Playtester
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2018, 12:53:13 AM »
There's been a lot of discussion about the Dark Elves, but what about the other ideas? What do people think of the Cygnet changes, or the Shortbeard changes?
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!'

Steel for humans, silver for monsters, gold for the witcher.

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3848
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2018, 11:49:36 AM »
Shortbeards  6*/4*/5*  2/1  R-  C-12  R-  C-12  M-3.5”  3/4/3
-1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
I don't really play dwarves, but I know that Shortbeards are considered "meh" at best, so I tried to give them some utility to make them worth taking.
 


Initiates (Core)  6*/4*/5*  2/1  R-  C-11*  M-3.5”  3/4/3
Courage +2 while within Leadership. -1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
See "Shortbeards"

OK, I'll bite on the Shortbeards.  I play Dwarves quite often and I was never fond of Shortbeards.  The problem with Shortbeards is that while they are a cheap unit, they are not as cheap as the true chump units like Brownies, Peasants, and Possessed so creating a chump stack is just too expensive.  And unlike those other units, Shortbeard courage is questionable (Bravery helps the Peasants).  Now you can certainly play the Dwarven courage cards on the Shorties, but I'd rather save those cards for quality units.  I'd feel a bit better about Shortbeards if they where Core because you could come up with some funky min-max spamy builds, but they'r'e not.  With all said, the Shortbeards do fit a role from time to time where you have the extra 100+ points and don't want to upgrade existing troops in your builds.  They really come in handy when playing in lower points cost games.  Unlike me, Brook really likes these guys so it's not all hate for them in our neck of the woods.  Now giving them Spears would be awesome for the Dwarves in general, but I don't want to create a situation where every faction has access to cheap spear units because then we'll be leaving Large and Cavalry units in the box more often.

So... Initiates.  Or what I prefer to call "The JV Squad".  They have similar issues to the Shortbeards, but at least they are Core.  The reason you don't see hordes of Initiates crawling around because Possessed exist.  Here is a throwaway unit that is cheap to stack and has a ridiculously high courage for the points as long as they are under spiritual supervision.  So the JV Squad often stays in the box.  I don't think changing the unit will break that cycle because Umenzi Core units are just so darned cheap and then you have The Possessed on the other end.  Plus Umenzi already have super affordable spears.  I'll go as far as to say Umenzi Spears are one of the best bang-for-the-buck units in the game so creating a cheaper Spear unit isn't really required.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2018, 12:46:22 PM »
I'll follow up on what Marcus said:

Shortbeards:  I think this unit should be put out to pasture.  There's a perfectly fine unit in the Militia that does the Shortbeard's job admirably.  In fact, as part of the retheme of Dwarves, I think the idea behind Militia & Shortbeards should be somewhat merged.  Militia should become a unit of apprentices who have not chosen their guild.  They're on the younger side and their training/cohesion is more rudimentary.

I'd replace Shortbeards with a unit of "Librarians" or "Scribes" type warriors who record battle to document the battle, recording the bravery (or shame) of certain soldiers but also which enemies deserve a Dwarven Grudge.  It'd be some kind of Triarii type unit that starts behind the line and bolsters nearby units, but can fight as a weak tank if needed.  I wouldn't want to directly copy the Triarii, but something along the same theme.


Initiates:  I'm with Marcus that cheap spears aren't what the doctor ordered.  This faction needs a more thorough re-think IMO.  Like, I'm not sure that they should have spearmen units at all, for example.  These guys strike me as more of a warrior culture, not a soldier culture.  That's not to say no spears, but maybe they only have elite spear type units, because the elite guys are the ones who've trained enough to fight in formation.

But there's other things that I think we should explore with them.  For example, a bit of story I conjured when coming up with the blurb for the website was they have "living gods" who go to war beside them (i.e. the GWE), instead of distant gods who may or may not answer prayers.  Maybe a cool bit of theming for them is that GWE is a Unique unit that has some distinct statline.  Like the current GWE could be "the tough one" who just has beefy stats.  But the could be another GWE who has Leadership (provides a Cge boost and trips special stat abilities).  Or maybe another one has a "faith armor bubble" for nearby units (don't know what that means, I'm just talking ideas here).  Maybe there's one that lets you draw +1 Command Card every turn, but you only keep equal to the CAs you spent to draw (i.e. spend 3 CAs to draw cards, you draw 4, then discard one of your choice).

There was also an idea I had for them to allow Umenzi units to "level up" during the game.  Maybe they get stat bonuses for beating enemies, because they take tropies & that somehow super-charges them.

Obviously not all of these ideas will work, because there's already the spells & Leadership so there's a fair bit of complexity in the faction.  But I'm just explaining that I think this is an faction that could have a little more flavor & theme that can be reflected in the rules.


Lizardmen:  This is another faction that I think should should be looked at from a theme point of view.  For example, should they have spearmen?  Are they really organized enough to fight like that?  To me they seem to be semi-feral, closer to wild animals than a society that could form rank.

I have no specific ideas for them, or even proposals.  I'm just saying that these guys need a complete re-think before we start designing stats.


Quote
High Elves
   Cygnets (Core)  6*5*/5*  2/2  R-  C-13  M-3.5”  4/3/3
Does not benefit from Maneuver Mastery. -1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.

I'm good with this.  I think Cygnets could easily find a place in the army with a statline like this.


Quote
Monsters and Mercenaries
   Wildmen Spearmen (Core) 
   Wildmen Sword-Removed

I'm not sure I agree with either of these.  I think Wildmen Sword fits fine and I'm not seeing Wildmen Spear "fitting" in the theme here.

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2018, 02:00:26 PM »
I wouldn't change a thing with the Shortbeards.  The unit is weak, but in the context of the army it's just fine.  With that command deck, you can save their ass multiple times with the courage boosters.

Something along those lines...

Marcus knows how good they are.....:)  When I kicked his ass with about 10 of them....
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 02:23:02 PM by gornhorror »
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Fingolfin

  • Playtester
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2018, 08:57:00 PM »
I'd replace Shortbeards with a unit of "Librarians" or "Scribes" type warriors who record battle to document the battle, recording the bravery (or shame) of certain soldiers but also which enemies deserve a Dwarven Grudge.  It'd be some kind of Triarii type unit that starts behind the line and bolsters nearby units, but can fight as a weak tank if needed.  I wouldn't want to directly copy the Triarii, but something along the same theme.

Sounds interesting. I would look to find something other than a flat courage boost for their buff ability,  but sounds cool.

Can you explain your thoughts on Spearmen more? Because historically peasants, people like Wildmen or Umenzi, used almost exclusively spears due to their cheap cost and versatility. Are you thinking that Battleground "Spearmen" are more a result of training and formation and less about the weapon used? If so, it might make sense to create a "lesser spearmen" stat for units that use spears, but don't have the training. Something like, 0/+1/+1 against Charging Units and 6 dice, but nothing else.
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!'

Steel for humans, silver for monsters, gold for the witcher.

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2018, 12:08:24 PM »
I'd replace Shortbeards with a unit of "Librarians" or "Scribes" type warriors who record battle to document the battle, recording the bravery (or shame) of certain soldiers but also which enemies deserve a Dwarven Grudge.  It'd be some kind of Triarii type unit that starts behind the line and bolsters nearby units, but can fight as a weak tank if needed.  I wouldn't want to directly copy the Triarii, but something along the same theme.

Sounds interesting. I would look to find something other than a flat courage boost for their buff ability,  but sounds cool.

Yeah and Dwarves already get a lot of Couage bumps for their cards, so I'd want it to be something else.  I don't know what, though.


Quote
Can you explain your thoughts on Spearmen more? Because historically peasants, people like Wildmen or Umenzi, used almost exclusively spears due to their cheap cost and versatility. Are you thinking that Battleground "Spearmen" are more a result of training and formation and less about the weapon used?

Exactly.  You can put a Wusthof knife in my hand, doesn't make me a gourmet chef.   Take a look at Carthage's Gallic Warriors:  most of them have spears, but that is not a spear unit.  Formation makes the unit fighting style, not the weapon.  (Or, more accurately, not just the weapon).  And that formation is dictated by the context.

Fingolfin

  • Playtester
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2018, 06:03:07 PM »
Some thoughts inspired by Hannibal:

Dwarves: For the Librarian unit, we could give them an ability to allow nearby units to unmark the Rune of Uruz for some additional benefit. Maybe pair this with an ability that gives them or nearby allied units bonuses if enemy units are destroyed near them.

Umenzi: Never played the faction, so I won't speak much. However, I imagine the "buff elephant" would have a higher cost than the standard, but that would probably be fine in the context of the faction.

Lizardmen: The faction flavor as written doesn't seem to give much indication of their societal level, so I imagine we could go two routes with them. We could make them a fairly developed society, with fairly organized units and spearmen, or we could make them more tribal. I personally prefer the second option, since a faction without spears would be interesting. Not to mention, we could emphasize the dinosaurs more.
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!'

Steel for humans, silver for monsters, gold for the witcher.

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2018, 04:03:35 PM »
Sorry for the late reply.  Been crazy over here.

Umenzi: Never played the faction, so I won't speak much. However, I imagine the "buff elephant" would have a higher cost than the standard, but that would probably be fine in the context of the faction.

My thought is that the 'standard' elephant would morph into the 'pure fighter' elephant.  The others would be weaker (in some way) but provide battlefield effects.



Quote
Lizardmen: The faction flavor as written doesn't seem to give much indication of their societal level, so I imagine we could go two routes with them. We could make them a fairly developed society, with fairly organized units and spearmen, or we could make them more tribal. I personally prefer the second option, since a faction without spears would be interesting. Not to mention, we could emphasize the dinosaurs more.

I was brainstorming the other day and I started to wonder about making them hate cities and culture.  Like religiously.  They're druidic crusaders who think that anything above stone-age level is an abomination.  So they hate cities, ships, etc.