Author Topic: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?  (Read 702 times)

Hannibal

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2017, 01:35:40 PM »
Yeah I wouldn't delay engaging at all.  You might eke out a 1 or 2 CC advantage per turn, but 30 ranged dice a turn that's a bad trade.  Even if you assume every single one of those shots is at long range or moved, that's 5pts a turn against a D:2/2 line.  And that's the worst case scenario for Persia.

And I certainly wouldn't try to outshoot Persia.  I wouldn't pull points off the line unless it's a melee unit put into reserve for when a hole opens in your line.  Otherwise, you put everything you've got into your line. 

If he takes a shooty swarm like this, do not dance & delay.  Because with this build most of his units are gonna be worse than you in melee, so get up in his face as fast as you can and hit him with everything you've got.  (As much as you can without getting pinched, of course).

On that note...

This one is for Brook, it uses all 7 Thanvabara.
2 Satrapal Cavalry, 2 Kardakes, 1 Sparabara, 7 Thanvabara, 1 Takabara, 2 Scythed Chariots, 2 Immortals = 2199 points
17 units, 4 core, 8 javelin dice, 33 LOS range dice @ 10.5"


I see a couple of flaws with this deployment Ron.  First, you don't really have much of a threat on the flanks, unlike previous builds which had Saka Horse Archers & Satrapal Cavalry.  Those two units are light, but paired together can be nasty because I have to put something there to deal with that threat.  You really only have skirmishers on the one flank and only Sparabara on the other.  Which means I can ignore the left flank and put only a token something on the right flank to concentrate on the middle.  Go ahead, flank me with Thanvabara, I don't care.   ;D

(Mind you, this assumes a Breaking Point type mission)

Second is that Takabara being deployed forward like that.  Not being skirmishers, they have to deploy in the regular DZ.  Which will push back the Immortals, meaning there's at least one turn where they'll suffer the move & shoot penalty (and I'm 90% sure M+S is going away soon).  With a 10.5" range that might not be a huge deal as you might be out of range anyway.  But it's something to keep in mind.

RushAss

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2017, 02:10:14 PM »
And I certainly wouldn't try to outshoot Persia.  I wouldn't pull points off the line unless it's a melee unit put into reserve for when a hole opens in your line.  Otherwise, you put everything you've got into your line. 

"The point of the journey is not to return... anything can happen"
-Rush, Prime Mover

BubblePig

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2017, 02:15:13 PM »
I see a couple of flaws with this deployment Ron.  First, you don't really have much of a threat on the flanks, unlike previous builds which had Saka Horse Archers & Satrapal Cavalry.  Those two units are light, but paired together can be nasty because I have to put something there to deal with that threat.  You really only have skirmishers on the one flank and only Sparabara on the other.  Which means I can ignore the left flank and put only a token something on the right flank to concentrate on the middle.  Go ahead, flank me with Thanvabara, I don't care.   ;D

(Mind you, this assumes a Breaking Point type mission)

Second is that Takabara being deployed forward like that.  Not being skirmishers, they have to deploy in the regular DZ.  Which will push back the Immortals, meaning there's at least one turn where they'll suffer the move & shoot penalty (and I'm 90% sure M+S is going away soon).  With a 10.5" range that might not be a huge deal as you might be out of range anyway.  But it's something to keep in mind.
I got lazy and cut and pasted, so I think the layout might need to be tweaked a bit more but...
1. If you ignore the flanks entirely I think I could use direct control to put another Thanv in your face if I wanted, or let the scythed chariots get to work and make that decision on the fly with modest CA investment.
2. I don't need to deploy the Takabara out of zone, I deploy them as normal and the whole stack moves 2.5" and no move and shoot penalty because it is 1 MC less than 3.5", is that not how it works?
3. I am still tweaking things and one thing I think might work well is trading the Kardakes with the closest Thanvabara. So getting pinched by Thanvabara don't care, but getting pinched by Kardakes not so much.
4. I have changed my focus from just noodling around to brainstorming actual builds I might drag out in the near future so some of these are probably non-starters. One thing I am trying to keep in mind is unit positions I can legitimately swap around because with 15-17 units I am going to have a lot of info before I put my last few units down.
5. On a related note, now that the cat is out of the bag in my mind I need at least 2 distinct and legit versions or my opponent is going to know exactly what is going on when I say I have 15-17 units.
 

Hannibal

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 02:24:45 PM »
I got lazy and cut and pasted, so I think the layout might need to be tweaked a bit more but...

No worries.  Just helping you refine the build a bit.

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1. If you ignore the flanks entirely I think I could use direct control to put another Thanv in your face if I wanted, or let the scythed chariots get to work and make that decision on the fly with modest CA investment.

Yeah if you find a way to get those Chariots on the flank it's a whole 'nother story.   8)   Although controlling them requires a bit of precision, since you can't DC them or modify their Standing Order.


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2. I don't need to deploy the Takabara out of zone, I deploy them as normal and the whole stack moves 2.5" and no move and shoot penalty because it is 1 MC less than 3.5", is that not how it works?

For now...   ;D


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3. I am still tweaking things and one thing I think might work well is trading the Kardakes with the closest Thanvabara. So getting pinched by Thanvabara don't care, but getting pinched by Kardakes not so much.

Yeah if you put an actual unit out on that flanks, I start to care. 


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4. I have changed my focus from just noodling around to brainstorming actual builds I might drag out in the near future so some of these are probably non-starters. One thing I am trying to keep in mind is unit positions I can legitimately swap around because with 15-17 units I am going to have a lot of info before I put my last few units down.
5. On a related note, now that the cat is out of the bag in my mind I need at least 2 distinct and legit versions or my opponent is going to know exactly what is going on when I say I have 15-17 units.

Don't forget the Persian Beef build:  4 Merc. Hoplites, 2 Elephants, Levies 1, and 168pts left to play with.  That's 2 Thanvabara (& 1 CC), or 1 Sparabara, or 1 Scythed Chariots, or 1 Satrapal Cavalry.  With a little bit of terrain this is a brutal build.

BubblePig

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 03:53:51 PM »
OK, so here is another 17 unit version:
2 Satrapal Cavalry, 2 Kardakes, 5 Sparabara, 6 Thanvabara, 1 Scythed Chariots, 1 Royal Guard = 2200 points
17 units, 4 core, 8 javelin dice, 38 LOS range dice @ 10.5"
This one could be deployed at the very back of the zone just as easily. Not sure if that would be an advantage or not.
No Immortals but a Royal Guard and a Chariots to help out those mediocre melee dice.
 

BubblePig

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 05:14:45 PM »
Corey, I know it was a long time ago, but I noticed that this playtest build was similar in some respects to mine, but obviously you did not use the "wing formation" I am thinking about using. The fact that Scott made some key checks obviously didn't help you, but I am also wondering your thoughts on how many more checks you could have forced by getting the Sparabara dice you blocked by putting the Thanvabara in front? Also, do you remember anything about the early card play or lack thereof? Also do you think you got 180ish points of value from Immortals instead of Sparabara?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 05:17:34 PM by BubblePig »
 

Hannibal

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 05:34:09 PM »
Corey, I know it was a long time ago, but I noticed that this playtest build was similar in some respects to mine, but obviously you did not use the "wing formation" I am thinking about using.

Correct.  I used a formation that Kevin had come up with during his playtesting of AvP.  I wouldn't think to try for that wing formation because my gut impression would be that you'd spend 1-2 turns moving into place and taking the move & shoot penalty that would render your shots pretty much useless.  And if I did M+S, I'd have concerns it'd take too long to set up at all.  Part of that may be that Scott has become very good at disrupting complex plans by timely aggression.  He may not get the perfect matchups or timing, but he does more harm to by disrupting your plans.

Also remember that at this time, the current skirmisher rules weren't used. 


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The fact that Scott made some key checks obviously didn't help you, but I am also wondering your thoughts on how many more checks you could have forced by getting the Sparabara dice you blocked by putting the Thanvabara in front?

Perhaps.  I gave up the long range shot (so 4 dice at 2s & 2s), which I didn't see as that big of a loss.  Also, you might be able to approximate the benefit of getting that extra shot with the fact that I did roll up on my shooting early.  Of the 4 units into which I was shooting, they all took 4pts when they should have taken 3 on the way in.


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Also, do you remember anything about the early card play or lack thereof?

Uh, not terribly well.  I can say that I got both Blot Out the Sun cards and didn't get Thousand Nations at all.  And I'm almost positive that Scott didn't play any cards against the shooting.  As a rule he thinks that using a Command Card on a 3 or 4 die attack (especially one needing 3s and 2s at best) is a waste of a card.  So I'd bet he used like maybe 1-2 Blue cards before we became engaged.


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Also do you think you got 180ish points of value from Immortals instead of Sparabara?

180?  Not seeing where you got that number.  I will say that my Immortals blew a crucial check that may well have cost me the game.  Not sure if that answers your question though...

BubblePig

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 05:51:28 PM »
There is a 90 point difference between Sparabara and Immortals, so swapping 2 of them out =  180 points. I was wondering why you opted for the 6 skill dice against Dwarves, and whether you feel you got those 180 points worth of extra value. Also bear in mind I understand I am looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. Also it is way easier with the new skirmisher rules to get out of your own way, so what may have been worth it then would not be worth it now. My rough estimate is that at def skill 2 it would be a push to get 50% more dice or dice that hit 50% more of the time, but some Dwarves are def skill 1, so I was wondering if you remember.
 

BubblePig

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2017, 05:58:12 PM »
Overall, I am banking on a substantial delaying effect from forcing the opponent to either split his force in 3 directions or suffer consequences. Otherwise it would be better to go for quality over quantity. Your report on Dwarves vs Persia is the only relevant field data I can use as a baseline, but I am going to give this a shot either way.
 

Hannibal

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2017, 06:11:38 PM »
There is a 90 point difference between Sparabara and Immortals, so swapping 2 of them out =  180 points. I was wondering why you opted for the 6 skill dice against Dwarves, and whether you feel you got those 180 points worth of extra value.

Aaaah...  I took the Immortals because I figured he'd have Militia somewhere in there and the D:2/2 is pretty vulnerable to them.  But also because I assumed (correctly) that I'd be seeing Antonians.  The Skill 6 means I could use Accuracy & Strike cards on them & actually produce results against those Antonians.  The idea is that with the Immortals able to shoot I'd force him into a bad place of having to charge Holding spearmen or delay & get whittled down.


Overall, I am banking on a substantial delaying effect from forcing the opponent to either split his force in 3 directions or suffer consequences.

Yeah and the trick to beating it is to keep perspective and accept the least bad.  Sometimes it'd worth taking a pinch to get engaged, because the other option is eat another round of shooting without attacking back.


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Otherwise it would be better to go for quality over quantity. Your report on Dwarves vs Persia is the only relevant field data I can use as a baseline, but I am going to give this a shot either way.

Yeah I really want to see this in action.  Of course, it's builds like this that are why Unit Objective modifiers are gonna start coming with a penalty.   8)

BubblePig

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Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2017, 06:19:35 PM »
Yeah I really want to see this in action.  Of course, it's builds like this that are why Unit Objective modifiers are gonna start coming with a penalty.   8)

Another reason for my using this 'parabolic' formation is that there are just going to be times where 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 units all have the same closest enemy unit. I am in the habit of letting my ranged units shoot closest enemy most of the time, it really isn't that hard. Plus the dice are just going to be hot in places and cold in others, and I feel I am usually better off drawing an extra card than wasting an action changing targets. I am just a miser who likes to let statistical variability choose my target of opportunity for me and it hasn't bit me on the bum very often. There would doubtless be times where I can 2 for 1, and move a Thanvabara to both delay things further and pour it on where there is a weak unit. Misers love 2fers.  :D
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 06:25:48 PM by BubblePig »