Author Topic: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers  (Read 337 times)

RushAss

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Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« on: June 27, 2017, 05:05:38 PM »
We're in Deep Water now!  So this situation popped up at last week's tournament.  Both units of Hawkshold Longbowmen where targeting the Persian Elephants.  Normally they will have a line of sight to them at all times because the Elephants are Large and even if a line or skirmisher unit is in between them and the Longbows, the Hawk blokes still can target them.  And then the Elephants enter the lake, which is deep water.  Now we have the potential for an elevation issue.  Are units in deep water considered to be at a lower elevation than units on land?  If so, regular line units CAN block line of sight to Large units in deep water.  Thoughts on this one guys?

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Hannibal

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 05:36:48 PM »
And then the Elephants enter the lake, which is deep water.  Now we have the potential for an elevation issue.  Are units in deep water considered to be at a lower elevation than units on land?

Nope.  The rules don't say that a unit in the water is at a lower elevation.  (Unless of course I'm missing something)

gornhorror

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 07:54:12 PM »
I was taking a -1 offensive skill with my long bowmen against the elephants in this game.
I’d agree with you but then we’d both be wrong.

RushAss

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 08:49:32 PM »
Well I tanked that one then, sorry Brook!  It wouldn't hurt if we clarified that in the latest version of the rules.  You would logically think that the big target would have a lower profile while trundling through a lake.
"As the years went by we drifted apart
When I heard that you where gone I felt a shadow cross my heart"
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NegativeZer0

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2017, 09:50:52 PM »
Well I tanked that one then, sorry Brook!  It wouldn't hurt if we clarified that in the latest version of the rules.  You would logically think that the big target would have a lower profile while trundling through a lake.

LOGIC RULES


Also just discovered you can't use the does not equal sign in text form on this forum it replaces it with a ? nor can you use img parameters to set img size >:(
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:08:41 PM by NegativeZer0 »
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RushAss

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 09:55:24 PM »
"As the years went by we drifted apart
When I heard that you where gone I felt a shadow cross my heart"
-Rush, Nbody's Hero

Hannibal

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 09:26:04 AM »
I was taking a -1 offensive skill with my long bowmen against the elephants in this game.

Eh?  Why would you be taking -1 Off Skill for elevation? 

Even if it was ruled that the elephants were at a lower elevation, that'd work in the Longbows' favor because short range would be out to 10.5" for them.

gornhorror

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 10:02:57 AM »
I think the way it was ruled was that they received soft cover from being in the water.  So when I fired on them I took a -2 penalty (long range, soft cover).  Then got a +1 for shooting at large.  So I was hitting on 4's until short range.  I had to swing the left most Longbowmen over so I could see the elephant on a few turns and suffered the move and shoot also.

On a side note, do Skirmishers with ranged abilities suffer a move and shoot? 

Could somebody post the current official Skirmisher rules?  I'm having trouble finding them.  I've learned a lot in the last few weeks and at the latest tourney, but I basically rely on Marcus to fill me in about them when we play.  He doesn't play them often.  I actually played Alexander the other night and had two.  (the 10.5 ranged ones)  To be honest, I still have a problem with historical armies, but I do like the Alexander army, even though it's on the upper end of the power curve.  I was surprised to learn that inspiration is worded "for any attack" not "for any engaged attack".
I’d agree with you but then we’d both be wrong.

RushAss

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 10:33:16 AM »
On a side note, do Skirmishers with ranged abilities suffer a move and shoot? 
Yes if they're archers, no if it's a javelin attack.  I can't recall off the top of my head if it applies to Slingers.

Could somebody post the current official Skirmisher rules?  I'm having trouble finding them.
Page 86 of the current rule book that comes with the latest releases, so Alexander vs. Persia and Wuxing.
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Hannibal

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 10:41:42 AM »
I think the way it was ruled was that they received soft cover from being in the water. 

Nothing in the rules say that they get soft cover.  At no point does a unit in Shallow Water, Deep Water, Wet Ground, River Rapids get Soft Cover.  The only place where there's water + soft cover is the Swamp/Bog, and that because swamps have trees (like a forest, which also grants Soft Cover).


Quote
On a side note, do Skirmishers with ranged abilities suffer a move and shoot? 

YES
(unless they're using javelins)

Non-javelin skirmisher ranged attacks follow all the normal rules found in the rulebook.  So Balearic Slingers, Thanvabara, etc all suffer the penalty for move & shoot. 

Dear god, please tell me that the Thanvabara were taking the move & shoot penalty...


Quote
Could somebody post the current official Skirmisher rules?

BGFW 3.1 rules

Skirmishers are section 7.6 which starts on page 86.  The whole section is too long to post here.

BubblePig

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 03:11:26 PM »
IMO Large/Colossal should be at a lower elevation going through water, and I would think normal units, too. Deep Water is just a big scoop of earth removed from the terrain (and filled with water) which is pretty much the reverse of a Hill which is a big scoop of earth plopped onto the terrain. Dealing with water features this way would also simplify the rules, since you could just use the elevation rules for dealing with penalties/bonuses for units defending the shore of a river etc.
Well I tanked that one then, sorry Brook!  It wouldn't hurt if we clarified that in the latest version of the rules.  You would logically think that the big target would have a lower profile while trundling through a lake.

LOGIC RULES


Also just discovered you can't use the does not equal sign in text form on this forum it replaces it with a ? nor can you use img parameters to set img size >:(

I would point out that in most cases rules do not equal logic because of rule bloat issues, but in this case making the rules more logical actually streamlines them.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 03:16:14 PM by BubblePig »
 

NegativeZer0

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 07:03:55 AM »
please tell me that the Thanvabara were taking the move & shoot penalty...

YES - At least in my game they were
Quote from: Chad_YMG
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Ostegun

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 11:59:06 AM »
Bubblepig has the jist of it.
The bull bears it's horns in hope. Hope to fend off those who would feed on it's love. The love of all the ones who held the wall upon which all memories have been written. Existence fussed to rip and explode the bull into the breach of threat.To scream in all the colors the essence of it's love.

Hannibal

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Re: Line of Site Shooting at Targets And Lakes and Rivers
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 12:35:53 PM »
IMO Large/Colossal should be at a lower elevation going through water, and I would think normal units, too. Deep Water is just a big scoop of earth removed from the terrain (and filled with water) which is pretty much the reverse of a Hill which is a big scoop of earth plopped onto the terrain. Dealing with water features this way would also simplify the rules, since you could just use the elevation rules for dealing with penalties/bonuses for units defending the shore of a river etc.

I'm not opposed to this idea.  I was just answering how the rules work as is.