Author Topic: Defensive Skill vs. Toughness  (Read 3508 times)

Fingolfin

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Re: Defensive Skill vs. Toughness
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 11:50:45 AM »
I think I see what you're saying, but I also think there's something to Kevin's point that Toughness units (i.e. D:1/3 & D:1/4) are more vulnerable to shooting.  The issue there is that shooting is really a waste of points in any game except Total Warfare played to the complete and bloody end (which pretty much nobody does).

One of my missions is to rectify shooting and when we do I think this discrepancy will diminish, if not evaporate.


Also while I agree with your point that it's easier to get a +1 to hit (flank them) than it is to get a +1 to wound, it captures the right feeling.  This is a personal opinion of course but to me it feels right that a unit of Longbeard is willing to wade into a fight against a horde of Goblins.  Sure the Goblins get the pinch bonus, the but the Dwarf player is okay with it because "eh, he's still only wounding on 2s."  Similarly, it feels right that the disciplined ranks of Elves would be more affected by getting flanked, because all their pretty moves & training can't be used.  And when shooting is fixed, I think that it'll feel right for the units of Elven archers to bring down the beast through sheer weight of fire.  Or for that T-rex, who could care less about those stunties who're flank-pinching, to start worrying about that freaking Ballista.

If ranged combat is made more viable, then Defensive Skill will definitely be buffed.

I get the theme justification for the current flanking bonus, but, if it is determined that Defensive Skill is too weak, then I think that theme must bow to gameplay. The 0/-1/0 modifier for shooting at engaged units was very thematic. It was removed for gameplay reasons.


Quote
I guess what I am trying to say is that for all the units that crush a 1/3 or 1/4, there are an equal number that decimate a 3/1.

Except that there simply aren't.  


Units which will hit & wound a 1/3 at least 4/9 of the time (meaning at least 4s & 4s or 3s & 6s or 6s & 3s), but won't do so to a 3/1:

Trolls, Skeleton Trolls, Giant Catapult (engaged or short range or Long Range vs. Large), Treant, Dwarf Miners, Dwarf Ballista (short range or long range vs. Large), Earth Elemental, Hill Giant, (non-charging) Giant War Elephant.


Units which hit & wound both a 1/3 and a 3/1 at least 4/9 of the time.

Hydra, T-Rex, Red & Ancient Red Dragons - deadlier vs. a 1/3

Charging Knights (all varieties) & Charging Giant War Elephant are more-or-less equally bad to both.

Celestial Guard -- deadlier vs. a 3/1


Units which hit & wound a 3/1 at least 4/9 of the time but won't do so to a 1/3

Ravenwood Bowmasters (short range).  

Charging only:  Carthaginian Spanish Cavalry, High Elf Chariots.  There might be a Persian Cav. unit as well. (I'm counting the impact hit(s) as equivalent to Off. skill.)

I probably should have defined what I meant. I was specifically referring to units that hit, or damage, on 3's. Even then, I concede the point. The large amount of 4 toughness probably doesn't balance the great number of 7 and 8 power.

There are a lot of 4 toughness units, but that is balanced by a goodly number of 7 and 8 power units.

By my count we have a total of 15 units currently in the game with a defensive toughness of 4.  So on average 1 per faction.  And of those 15, 13 of them are Elite units and most of those are really expensive, so you're not exactly flooding the board with them unless you're playing Undead with their Zombie Trolls*.

True. My point was that, due to the fact that there are far more 4 toughness units than 4 defensive skill units, having a bunch of 7 power units was good. However, the more I think about it, the more 8 power units seem to punish toughness. Hitting or damaging on 3's is standard, so having a decent number of units that damage on 4's versus 4 toughness units does seem to upset the status quo.

And sorry if this is starting to feel like a "Let's all jump on Fingolfin" thread.  This is actually a very good discussion and you raise very valid points  ;)

No worries!  :) I have 4 brothers, so I'm used to it. Actually, I don't feel jumped on at all. It has been a very interesting and informative discussion, where everyone has been very calm and rational.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 11:54:20 AM by Fingolfin »
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gornhorror

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Re: Defensive Skill vs. Toughness
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 01:40:06 PM »
Another thing to take note of is that 3/2 and 3/1 defenses get ravaged by impact hits.  To me it makes no sense that agile units(high defensive skill) are more vulnerable to them than high defensive toughness.  Their agility should afford them the chance of evading damage altogether, however with the current system they are pretty much sure to take damage because of the automatic hit. 

Perhaps we could just say that for every impact hit the unit does one extra damage if at least one damage is done.  This way the unit that doesn't evade really gets run over, but they should at least have a chance to evade.
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RushAss

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Re: Defensive Skill vs. Toughness
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2016, 09:31:03 AM »
There's certainly an advantage to high toughness vs. high defensive skill when it comes to impact hits, but it's not as pronounced as you'd think.  

Let's use an example comparing Antonian Horsemen charging two units.  Unit A has a 3/1 defense and unit B has a 1/3 defense.  Assuming average dire rolls and all command card play being equal:

Average damage inflicted on unit A - 4.1666
Average damage inflicted on unit B - 3.8333

So on average it's a difference of a 3rd of a point of damage.  

Now let's replace the Antonians with Knights of any variety.  Same defensive stats for Units A and B with average die rolls and command card play being equal:

Average damage inflicted on unit A - 5
Average damage inflicted on unit B - 5.1

Whoa!  Pretty much even.  To be fair, there are more units with impact hits having an offensive power of 6 or less than those with impact hits and an offensive power greater than 6.  So there is a disparity, but it's pretty small.
 
Now the difference becomes more pronounced when you get into units with multiple impact hits.  Namely Chariots, Triceratops Herds, and Elephants (all 3 varieties).  So there's currently 5 units in the game that punish low defensive toughness.  Note that the cheapest and most readily available of those units (they're Core for cryin' out loud!) are the Chariots, which live in a low defensive toughness faction  :P
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gornhorror

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Re: Defensive Skill vs. Toughness
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2016, 11:54:39 AM »
There's certainly an advantage to high toughness vs. high defensive skill when it comes to impact hits, but it's not as pronounced as you'd think.  

Let's use an example comparing Antonian Horsemen charging two units.  Unit A has a 3/1 defense and unit B has a 1/3 defense.  Assuming average dire rolls and all command card play being equal:

Average damage inflicted on unit A - 4.1666
Average damage inflicted on unit B - 3.8333

So on average it's a difference of a 3rd of a point of damage.  

Now let's replace the Antonians with Knights of any variety.  Same defensive stats for Units A and B with average die rolls and command card play being equal:

Average damage inflicted on unit A - 5
Average damage inflicted on unit B - 5.1

Whoa!  Pretty much even.  To be fair, there are more units with impact hits having an offensive power of 6 or less than those with impact hits and an offensive power greater than 6.  So there is a disparity, but it's pretty small.
 
Now the difference becomes more pronounced when you get into units with multiple impact hits.  Namely Chariots, Triceratops Herds, and Elephants (all 3 varieties).  So there's currently 5 units in the game that punish low defensive toughness.  Note that the cheapest and most readily available of those units (they're Core for cryin' out loud!) are the Chariots, which live in a low defensive toughness faction  :P

And I have yet to see one of your Persian armies without a unit of Elephants, especially against elves, because you know that they are death to any unit that has a 3/1 or a 3/2 defense.   Even if I play a Mettle in this circumstance it won't save me, but if you play a Mettle with a 1/3 defense you have a chance.  A parry wont even stop the impact hit.  There should be a scenario where a high defensive skill unit can final rush one of these units and survive.  Isn't it momentum and bulk that causes an impact hit?  Shouldn't agile units be able to out maneuver these types of units?  I say let their offensive profile see if they can hit in the first place, don't give them an automatic hit.  I think impact hits should trigger once damage is done.  If no damage is done, then no impact hit.  Then impact hits would be more like Aspect of Stag I guess.  This way it doesn't matter if it's a 3/1 or a 1/3 defense, or 3/2 or a 2/3 for that matter.

 



« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 12:57:27 PM by gornhorror »
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Kevin

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Re: Defensive Skill vs. Toughness
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2016, 10:12:17 PM »
If you're rolling 6 dice, an Impact Hit is mathematically equivalent to getting (+0) +1/+0.  (If you're rolling more than 6 dice, an impact hit is slightly weaker than that.) 

Historical cav get an impact hit and a power when charging, so it's basically a wash.  a (4) 5/7 unit which gets 2 impact hits effectively attacks at (6) 7/7 when you include the charge bonus; it's equally nasty vs. a 1/3 or a 3/1.
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