Author Topic: Re: Dark Elf Faction Review  (Read 5036 times)

RushAss

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 05:11:53 PM »
I would, but my laptop at home (provided to my by my work) is dying a slow death and I fear I'm going to have to update soon.  I'll have to see how that shakes out.
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gornhorror

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2016, 05:29:17 PM »
With all due respect, Brook, you are wasting your time testing changes based on what it feels like to play against them. I have vassal and tts, we can throw down any time you want on either platform (vassal is free and Bohan did a great job of getting apps to work for BG, so in fairness he should get dibs if you feel like giving either of those a spin.) Play Dark Elves against my Ravenwood just once and see if you still want to limit them to one lashmistress. Until you play them yourself enough times to get a feel for their weaknesses and feel the pain of being on the other side of that equation, you are just going to overestimate their strengths and underestimate their weaknesses.

I'd be happy to make time to play you Ron at the next con.  Hopefully you will be able to make DexCon this year.  I will be there on Friday and Saturday.  I'm not positive, but I think Marcus and I will be running another Battleground event.  It's always a pleasure to see you and it's a shame we didn't play each other at Totalcon.  True I have never actually played the Dark Elf faction(maybe once), but I've played against it many times and it just seems to me that it is a bit overpowered.  I will being playing against it more and playing it more going forward. (Sorry Marcus  ;D)

This is a discussion board and furthermore it's a house rules topic area.  So, I'm not seeing the problem to state what I feel about the game.  You guys can respond or not, but to say I'm wasting my time is not correct.  If you want to respond fine, if not, that's fine also.

The game I played last Saturday night was in fact Ravenwood against Dark Elves.  I never felt like I had a chance, but I must say that I could of done some things different.  Marcus will post the game eventually.

I'll pass on playing on Vassal.  I would like to keep Battleground face to face social game.  The only online game that I tolerated was Starfleet Battles and I usually had a headache after playing.   No more of that for me.
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Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2016, 06:59:29 PM »
I know the boat has sailed on the faction years ago and this is the House Rule section, but of all Brook's proposals the one I would get behind the most is Slave Warriors becoming a standard unit.  Because with them being Core, you have a plethora of cheesy build options.  I don't see the occasional cheesy build being a problem, but if you have a huge number of cheesy builds available then it becomes one IMO.

Sure, no one's stopping you from making changes when you guys play, but what I'm saying is that will make the problem worse, not better in this case.  After every tournament, you're going to run the risk of coming away unhappy because you got surprised by a DE build that you've personally banned.  And then we're right back here with "DE are overpowered" vs "no, they just have a bag of tricks."

I get the frustration.  There's things about the Wuxing that blindside me, that leave me going "I dunno, that seems a bit strong."  But you can verify with Bohan when we played last:  he had some strong concerns about them and my response was "It feels strong, but I simply haven't played them enough to pass judgement."  And that's going to happen, because that's the new faction where I don't know the ins and outs of it yet.  So before I break out the Errata Torches and the Pitchforks of Nerfing, I want to see if there's weaknesses I can exploit.

Zelc

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2016, 08:09:41 PM »
I get the frustration.  There's things about the Wuxing that blindside me, that leave me going "I dunno, that seems a bit strong."  But you can verify with Bohan when we played last:  he had some strong concerns about them and my response was "It feels strong, but I simply haven't played them enough to pass judgement."  And that's going to happen, because that's the new faction where I don't know the ins and outs of it yet.  So before I break out the Errata Torches and the Pitchforks of Nerfing, I want to see if there's weaknesses I can exploit.
I will say I think I've figured out how to play against Wuxing now, and they don't seem as bad (IMO still pretty strong). It's still an awful matchup for Rome, Carthage, and Alexander.

I will also say this is an accurate depiction of what you said :).

gornhorror

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2016, 03:28:53 PM »
I know there is a lot of room for personal preference but I looked at the overall ratings of the factions that were done by some of the posters here.  Here is the average star ratings for all of the units combined. 

Lizardmen 2.75 stars
Orcs 2.67 stars
High Elves 3.00 stars
Dark Elves 3.88 stars
Dwarves 2.83 stars
Monsters and Mercs 3.08 stars
Carthage 3.00 stars
Hawks 3.00 stars
Rome 2.96 stars
Umenzi 2.83 stars

Ravenwood and Undead were not done.

I did Ravenwood myself and came up with 2.92
I leave it to somebody else to rate the Undead.

I would like to point out that different people rated different factions, however the Dark Elves made it to the top by a considerable margin.

Wonder why that is?
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Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2016, 03:39:22 PM »
Some of those same people who rated them highly also posted here saying that they shouldn't be changed.   ;D

But, as you said, it's a house rule.  Do as you want!   :D

(Seriously, the only reason I'm pushing back is because believe it or not, I'm trying help.  You're a solid player, Brook, and I don't want you to handicap yourself by getting used to a nerfed DE faction that leaves you unprepared to face them in their cheesy glory.)

NegativeZer0

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2016, 03:47:41 PM »
Some points form the tournament:
Slaves - I never took more than one unit of slaves
Lash-mistress - I only took more than one lash-mistress once.
Army Ability - I used pain touch sparingly almost always favoring cards.
Fear - This barely had an effect.  After 6 rounds I can only think of 2 units that failed when in green.  This is more of an annoyance than a useful ability.  Taking this away and giving me more points to play with would be a buff not a nerf.  As to the immunity to fear that's no where near worth the points paid.  Fear is already not worth the points paid, immunity to fear is worth even less and on a courage 13/14 army it is completely worthless.


Slaves Continued: I really don't see the slaves thing as a big deal (I think taking 4 is just stupid you have other really good core choices you are not taking if you do this) but in the interest of discussion perhaps instead of making them standard we make them both core and elite.  (thematically - While slaves are abundant rounding up slaves both fit to fight and trustworthy enough to not flee/turncoat is an arduous task) This is a concept I've been toying with in my Egyptian faction (core&elite) and I'm honestly surprised no ones done this yet.

While I'll never admit it to Kevin (Kevin no reading this) the adjusted cost for Lash-mistress feels right and really starts to hurt your other options if you take multiple mistress with that increased cost.  The only time I took 2 was because we had 2250 points.

Flavor issue:
Why isn't the courage ability from the Lords of Dusk on the Standard Bearers instead.  (points cost adjusted accordingly)  
[Sorry Kevin I know I bring this up EVERY time we talk about DE but dammit this annoys me]

Anyway I'm at work.  I'll prob have more to add later.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 04:19:55 PM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
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Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2016, 03:55:03 PM »
Quote
Flavor issue:
Why isn't the courage ability from the Lords of Dusk on the Standard Bearers instead.  (points cost adjusted accordingly) 
[Sorry Kevin I know I bring this up EVERY time we talk about DE but dammit this annoys me]

You're not the only one.  Scott makes that comment damn near every time the DE's come out of the box.

BubblePig

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2016, 04:00:21 PM »
Brook, there are so many problems with that metric I barely know where to start, but here goes:

1) Different authors. Someone has got to be the Russian judge in there. Some may have based ratings more on other units within the faction, some on units in other factions. Note that I only did ratings for the Dark Elves, and that Dark Elves are a statistical outlier. Wonder why that is?
2) Dark Elves had not been played for very long when that review was posted. Opinions change.
3) A simple mean (as opposed to a weighted mean) does not capture the relative importance of a given unit. No matter how good an Ancient Red Dragon is, that doesn't matter as much if you can only afford one.
4) Dark Elves got nerfed several times after that review was posted.

Just look at how flawed that metric is: Monsters and Mercs are in second place for the top, Carthage is above Rome, and Orcs are dead last. If you said the factions which scored the lowest were the best factions, that would be more accurate than the other way around. This isn't math, it is number salad.

NegativeZer0

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2016, 04:10:43 PM »
Brook, there are so many problems with that metric I barely know where to start, but here goes:

1) Different authors. Someone has got to be the Russian judge in there. Some may have based ratings more on other units within the faction, some on units in other factions. Note that I only did ratings for the Dark Elves, and that Dark Elves are a statistical outlier. Wonder why that is?
2) Dark Elves had not been played for very long when that review was posted. Opinions change.
3) A simple mean (as opposed to a weighted mean) does not capture the relative importance of a given unit. No matter how good an Ancient Red Dragon is, that doesn't matter as much if you can only afford one.
4) Dark Elves got nerfed several times after that review was posted.

Just look at how flawed that metric is: Monsters and Mercs are in second place for the top, Carthage is above Rome, and Orcs are dead last. If you said the factions which scored the lowest were the best factions, that would be more accurate than the other way around. This isn't math, it is number salad.

This

Proof:
Dark Elves 3.88 stars
Umenzi 2.83 stars

Quote
Flavor issue:
Why isn't the courage ability from the Lords of Dusk on the Standard Bearers instead.  (points cost adjusted accordingly)  
[Sorry Kevin I know I bring this up EVERY time we talk about DE but dammit this annoys me]

You're not the only one.  Scott makes that comment damn near every time the DE's come out of the box.

Joking aside this change fixes both units.  Lords cost too much (they would get a SMALL price cut for losing the courage ability) and standard bearers need something that encourages them to be in the middle of your line (instead of the outside where I almost always put them) and standard bearers are cheap enough they can afford a small price increase for this ability.  Had this been done in army design it also means they would most likely have gotten less courage cards (standard Bearers are much easier to cram into the amry than Lords) in the command deck thus also fixing one of brooks complaints.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 05:16:44 PM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

gornhorror

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2016, 05:09:35 PM »
Brook, there are so many problems with that metric I barely know where to start, but here goes:

1) Different authors. Someone has got to be the Russian judge in there. Some may have based ratings more on other units within the faction, some on units in other factions. Note that I only did ratings for the Dark Elves, and that Dark Elves are a statistical outlier. Wonder why that is?
2) Dark Elves had not been played for very long when that review was posted. Opinions change.
3) A simple mean (as opposed to a weighted mean) does not capture the relative importance of a given unit. No matter how good an Ancient Red Dragon is, that doesn't matter as much if you can only afford one.
4) Dark Elves got nerfed several times after that review was posted.

Just look at how flawed that metric is: Monsters and Mercs are in second place for the top, Carthage is above Rome, and Orcs are dead last. If you said the factions which scored the lowest were the best factions, that would be more accurate than the other way around. This isn't math, it is number salad.

Did you see what I said in the beginning of my post?  I know there's a lot of personal preference and many different people made those ratings.  I just found it funny that you gave a 3 or higher to every damn unit in the faction.  No other faction, no matter when or who did the ratings rated their factions that high.

Thank God that the Dark Elves got at least those nerfs...because if they didn't I wouldn't be the only one still bitching about them.  They deserved every last one of them, and still deserve more. IMHO. 

Everybody always though I was biased because I love Elves.  Well here's proof what I say isn't just because I want Elves to rule all.  (Sorry Dave) 
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

RushAss

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2016, 05:29:59 PM »
Why do I see this stuff just when I'm about to leave work?  Doh!

Some points form the tournament:
Slaves - I never took more than one unit of slaves
Yeah, this stems from a discussion Brook and I had a couple of years ago.  Nothing to do with this tournament

Army Ability - I used pain touch sparingly almost always favoring cards.
Yeah, I think you only used it once in our game.  If that.

Fear - This barely had an effect.  After 6 rounds I can only think of 2 units that failed when in green.  This is more of an annoyance than a useful ability.  Taking this away and giving me more points to play with would be a buff not a nerf.  As to the immunity to fear that's no where near worth the points paid.  Fear is already not worth the points paid, immunity to fear is worth even less and on a courage 13/14 army it is completely worthless.
In our game I only had 1 Fear check failure which was on Wolfkin that got flanked, so it didn't really mean much at all anyways.

I'm not sure what a non-susceptibility to fear is worth in the formula, but it's probably 2% or less.  I'd actually rather have that as a Dark Elven player than being Fearsome.  Because if your opponent passes all of their checks it's a waste.  But the immunity is nice because every once in a while you get that high courage unit that runs into something scary and they blow their check and it leaves a really bad taste in your mouth.  I had that happen with Centaurs charging Ogres a couple of months ago.  So IMO the immunity has a better value than the whole shebang.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch