Author Topic: Re: Dark Elf Faction Review  (Read 5034 times)

Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 11:51:10 PM »
I agree with almost everything Ron & Bohan said especially on the assessments of the command card decks.  I think M&M and Rome have probably the best two decks in the game.

That being said, I think there's a thread running through the units that have been mentioned:  Seize the Moment, Fearsome spam, Coven spells, Lashmistresses, Drake Riders. They're frustrating to play against.  For example, even if Fearsome is costed right, it's annoying to take like 5 checks because you know you're going to fail one of them.  Lashmistresses are not insurmountable.  Realistically it's basically a CA tax if you keep up on it.  Same thing with Seize the Moment.  Having to play like the enemy has it isn't insurmountable.

But when you slip up and forget it f'ng suuucks.  And probably it costs you the game.  Now admittedly any close game comes down to the first slip up, but I think it's not so frustrating to lose a game when you forget something in the main rules.  But when you lose because unit's A, B, & C's special rules but "oh yeah, I forgot that unit's special rules."

Combine that with cheap Core spearmen, optimized Core cavalry, and one of the better checkbox abilities[1], and they can be a really frustrating faction to play against.  Thing is, I'm not sure what we can do.  Because we're not talking a little tweak here (and I don't think moving the Slaves to Standard would resolve that issue).  You'd almost have to start over with the faction.


[1]I actually think that Pain Touch is a really nasty ability.  It's basically Cunning on tap.  I always give it to Dusk Lances.  Always.  Because it lets you pass when it comes to playing a card.  If your opponent plays a rough Blue card, you can counter with a Red card.  If he doesn't, you'll very likely get +1 damage.


Flavor wise, I do think Ancients and Red Dragons should be immune to pureblood terrifying, but other than that I don't see the problem with stipulating that Dark Elves are a race so ancient and contemptuous that they have thoroughly conditioned every other race to instinctively fear them. What exactly is your problem with that?

I actually envisioned the Terrifying as a gestalt fear spell.  One string enough to affect even Dragons.  Not sure I'd have it there from a design POV, but I can get there easily from a flavor perspective.

RushAss

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 10:53:07 AM »
But when you slip up and forget it f'ng suuucks.  And probably it costs you the game.  Now admittedly any close game comes down to the first slip up, but I think it's not so frustrating to lose a game when you forget something in the main rules.  But when you lose because unit's A, B, & C's special rules but "oh yeah, I forgot that unit's special rules."

Combine that with cheap Core spearmen, optimized Core cavalry, and one of the better checkbox abilities[1], and they can be a really frustrating faction to play against.
I think this is the crux of it.  And to be honest, our group's views on the faction are influenced by the fact that we don't play Dark Elves as often as we play most other factions.  I myself don't have a great track record with them because I like trying to play them like a "normal" faction and that doesn't always work so well.  But if I'm serious about winning, they can cause all kinds of hurt.  In fact, we had an impromptu get together Saturday night and I played Dark Elves against Brook's Ravenwood.  It turned out to be an incredibly close game but that was largely because of an incredibly fortunate event (for Ravenwood) that occurred late in the game.  But Brook brought up a good point.  He said "It's like the Dark Elves have an answer for everything" and at least in the scope of this game he was right.  I never felt that I was working hard in that game.  Mentally, I never broke a sweat.  It didn't even feel good to win.  I'll post the report but it's gonna be a few weeks because it's lined up in the queue behind all the Total Con reports that where delayed by my family's unscheduled tour of Chilton Hospital last week.

And I will go on record as saying that if it isn't the best command deck in the game, the Dark Elven deck has got to be in the top 3.  For every single faction-specific card I drew I was like "This is perfect!".
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gornhorror

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2016, 12:58:40 PM »
Yes, it's definitely the best command deck in the game.

Arrogant Spite (enough said)

Seize the Moment-this card is just ridiculous.  In a faction that has core 7" units and a flying unit? Perhaps the movement buff can be limited to just one unit instead of two?

Butcher the Unworthy......Love this card, the name, it's effect....it's all good.

Inspiration on high-Did this faction really need a courage re-roll that gives you a BETTER courage?  Maybe the card could of been.  Before rolling a rout check give that unit one of your unengaged units courage before the check.  Or something along those lines.

I forget the name of the card, but having one card that is a FFTB or a FOW is pretty damn good.  Not sure if it's too powerful, but it sure is annoying to have reroll a good roll twice in one game.

Contempt......I think is fine. It might even be not strong enough.  I think it works with 3/1 defenses quite well.

As far as the Fearsome, I still think there is no need for it for your main line units. I would of made them more resistant to fear checks(not rout checks).  My reasoning would of been that they were banished and had to fend for themselves against the denizens of the underworld for a millennia.  As a result, they have seen it all in regard to fearsome creatures.  It you looked at my rules from last years Dexcon. I took away the Fearsome from most of the units and gave them +1 courage verses fear checks.  I'm not sure if that would of made up for the 3% or so that the units pay for being fearsome but it was a start.  If any permanent changes are to be made, I could live with making them immune to fear checks so they could keep their prices as is.  Their prices are low enough.

I also think Pain touch is a bit strong for a faction ability.  It might be too strong.  I would of made it more conditional that it already is.  I would of made it act something like the Umenzi abilty Death Curse(?) In order to be used, the unit using it also takes a point of damage.  Or how about making it unusable on the charge turn?

Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2016, 02:15:45 PM »
and they can be a really frustrating faction to play against.
I think this is the crux of it.  And to be honest, our group's views on the faction are influenced by the fact that we don't play Dark Elves as often as we play most other factions.

And that sort of thing only makes it worse.  If you don't play the faction because all the dirty tricks are annoying -> then you don't get used to the dirty trick -> which makes them annoying as hell to play against -> so you don't play Dark Elves much. . .

But to be clear, there's a difference between un-fun and un-balanced.  Now I think as a rules designer you should strive for both and if you have to compromise go with fun over balance.  Because I think people will tolerate getting hosed if they had a good time (it's basically the MO of every casino in history).


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In fact, we had an impromptu get together Saturday night and I played Dark Elves against Brook's Ravenwood.  It turned out to be an incredibly close game but that was largely because of an incredibly fortunate event (for Ravenwood) that occurred late in the game. 

Well, I'd want to see the game.  I mean, that's a matchup that already feels like it favors Dark Elves (lots of skill 6 vs a D:3/1 faction and the DEs have decent chumps plus reactive Green rerolls).  The one thing that Dark Elves were designed to do was beat up on chump armies.  Niko explcitely said that these guys were intended to take chump stack heavy armies down a peg.  They have guys who can cut through chump stacks and lashmistresses who can force bad fights to happen before you want, and so on. 

So if a Ravenwood player shows up with a bunch of Wolf Kin and Wolf Packs and Brownies and archers, then don't be surprised if you get beat up pretty bad.  Not saying Brook did this, but it's something you have to keep in mind when you play these guys. 

Out here we don't put a lot of stock into chump units or shooting, so often the really silly shenanigans simply don't happen.  We're not wasting shots at chumps or D:3/x units.  I don't care if you pull in one of units a turn early, because I feel I can contain that issue.  If you try to land a Drake Rider in the backfield, I'm comfortable that I can send a 200pt unit to nullify that threat (or a similarly cheap fast unit that can play flank the Drakes when they land or play hokey-pokey if you try to fly somewhere else).



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And I will go on record as saying that if it isn't the best command deck in the game, the Dark Elven deck has got to be in the top 3.  For every single faction-specific card I drew I was like "This is perfect!".

I think Rome and Monsters & Mercs have better decks.  Rome has an absurd deck that was part of the faction being crazy good before we tossed the Pow charge.  Monsters & Mercs are frankly a sub-par faction that gets pulled up by the sheer power level of their deck.  You might be right that DEs are #3, but that's almost entirely on their 3 Green cards.  The other cards are nice, but more situational.


As far as the Fearsome, I still think there is no need for it for your main line units. I would of made them more resistant to fear checks(not rout checks). 

I actually like that idea.  Maybe a Cge bonus because they don't frighten easily.  There a lot of stylistic things about DEs that I'm not fond of, frankly.


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I also think Pain touch is a bit strong for a faction ability. 

From a design POV, the issue I have with it is that it doesn't feel like there's decision tension in there.  By and large I think it's a no brainer to buy it and put it on three units, then put it on Knights every time they charge.  But after that, I buy the cards.  On really good units that need to do a lot of thumping, you go for it.  And if you have a huge CC advantage you go for it.  But beyond that, I say you draw the cards.

From a theme POV, I have a problem with it because...why?  Pain touch implies that DEs are into torture.  Where does that come from?  I mean, I see the racial caste thing (aka "Nazi Elf") and the slaver thing, but I don't see where they're like 40K Dark Eldar who get high off people's pain.  Maybe it could belong as a sort of "so skilled they can strike to cripple/disable" but then it's probably got to be limited to something the higher skill fighters.

The other thing is that I like the "slaver" and "fantasy caste system" thing with the different breeds, but my complaint is that those themes didn't go far enough.  For example, I'd break the units down into three categories and limit command card play based on that category

Slaves:  to play a command card on this unit, you must discard a card.

Low & Half Bloods:  to play a Blue or Green command card on this unit, you must discard a card.

High & Purebloods:  no limitations.


When it comes to units I know Niko made all the spears the lower castes because historically skilled swordsmen were people who had the time to train (i.e. nobility), but I would've pushed that envelope even farther.  I would have made the society borne on the backs of the Low Bloods.  They do all the work and the nobles just show up to take all the credit. 

I probably would have tossed the Highblood Blades and moved the Highblood Duskblades into their spot (yes, this means they have a Core (5)6/6 unit, but I could live with that).  I would have tossed the Standard Bearers.  That right there frees up two spots for some kind of Half Blood type units.  Heck I could see making the Drake Riders Half Bloods and swapping their Skill 6 for Pow 6, to go with those beasts.  The Slave Takers strikes me as the perfect place to introduce the bonus dice vs routing units.  And of course, Slaves would not be Spears.

But either way I'd play up that whole thing that Half Bloods and Low Bloods do all the actual work of their society.  The Highbloods by and large fill more niche spots.  And the Purebloods are very clearly sorcerers of some sort.

As for the checkbox, I don't know if I'd go with a straight extra point.  If I wanted to play up that effect of "slavers on a raid" I'd do something that has a "break their back" kind of feel.  Perhaps an extra point if it would cause a rout check (dunno how I'd word that).  Maybe something to the effect of:  erase the box after damage is inflicted during an attack to cause 1 damage if this would cause the unit to take a rout check in the Post-Combat Courage phase.  This counts as a Command Card.

So if the enemy has 4 Green boxes and you did 3, then you could erase it to do the 4th.  Or if they're 2 boxes away and you only did 1.  Also it'd be insurance about always doing a box if that box would cause a check.  It'd accelerate damage on the enemy if you got them into the Red, but I could live with that.

At the very least I would alter it so that you must erase the box before dice are rolled, or at some point in the attack.  Having it be after the attack gives DEs a ton of flexibility when it comes to playing Red cards.  If I have a marked box, I seldom play a red card first.  I pass and then either respond to his Blue card or just stick with the extra point.



Zelc

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 12:45:09 AM »
I see Dark Elves as the "bark worse than bite" faction in this game. There's usually a faction which has a bunch of tricks and just feels unfair, but are quite beatable once you figure out how they work and have a solid gameplan.

I actually think Orcs are a good matchup against Dark Elves. Marauders are the perfect unit to trump every good unit this faction has except (maybe including?) Dusk Lances, and you can take 3 of them. For once, Goblin Raiders and Spearmen actually have some good matchups (Slave Warriors, Lowblood Levies, and loses slowly to Standard Bearers). One unit of Crazed Goblins can be used either on the flanks or to soak up Lords of Dusk shots. Lash can be used to get any rear-deployed unit in position to stop the Drake Riders.

Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2016, 02:15:56 AM »
I see Dark Elves as the "bark worse than bite" faction in this game. There's usually a faction which has a bunch of tricks and just feels unfair, but are quite beatable once you figure out how they work and have a solid gameplan.

This.



« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 02:18:23 AM by Hannibal »

BubblePig

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2016, 05:27:25 AM »
OK, I'll bite  ;D

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Arrogant Spite (enough said)
Cry Havoc (enough said)

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Seize the Moment-this card is just ridiculous.  In a faction that has core 7" units and a flying unit? Perhaps the movement buff can be limited to just one unit instead of two?
If this card is so damn good, how come orcs don't rule the world? And bear in mind, unlike orcs you don't get to do this at will. If you draw this too late it is an underwhelming card to say the least. Don't get me wrong, it is a great card, but is it as good as Ordered Retreat?
Let me rephrase that. This card is, on its best day, about as good as Ordered Retreat; but on average it just is not quite as good. It would be a bit better if people played as if I had it in my hand even when I didn't, but in practice that does not seem to happen or it doesn't make as much difference as I think it should.

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Butcher the Unworthy......Love this card, the name, it's effect....it's all good.
This gives me the impression you haven't had this card stuck in your hand waiting for a unit with low enough courage, which gives me the impression you haven't taken this deck for a spin more than once or twice.
Maybe I'm just wrong, but I'll tell you what. Let's just take the amount of goodness this card has over the average CC and stack it on top of STM. Now we just evened out the imbalance that Ordered Retreat created in the mercs' favor.

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Inspiration on high-Did this faction really need a courage re-roll that gives you a BETTER courage?  Maybe the card could of been.  Before rolling a rout check give that unit one of your unengaged units courage before the check.  Or something along those lines.
I'll see you with Battle Cry to improve my courage and make yours worse on top of making my attack dice better. Also, I raise you Final Push.


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Contempt......I think is fine. It might even be not strong enough.  I think it works with 3/1 defenses quite well.
I would trade this for an average blue card in a heartbeat. It only works with 3/1 defense quite well when your opponent hasn't got 6 attack skill. Actually it only works marginally well in that case because let's not forget that even if your opponent needs 2's and 4's, you only prevent 2/3 of a point of damage. You are better off if your opponent rolls two 4's on the damage roll so you can RWTB. But it works well against t2 if you need to use it as a red card. Which happens sometimes. But then again, getting Oathbound just exactly when you need it happens sometimes, too, on those rare occasions you aren't saving it for RWTB. I am just glad that there is only one of these in the deck. It makes me sad every time I see it in my hand. But let's just call this an average card anyway.


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I forget the name of the card, but having one card that is a FFTB or a FOW is pretty damn good.  Not sure if it's too powerful, but it sure is annoying to have reroll a good roll twice in one game.
Yup, I love this card. I love all the play them after the fact cards (except Contempt.) Having the option to play it as a red comes into play sometimes, but lack of blue cards means this one becomes FOW a whole lot. So on paper this is a really flexible card, but in practice not much better than an extra FOW which is still not bad. But I got two Battle Hardened left. Game. Set. and Match.


And I will go on record as saying that if it isn't the best command deck in the game, the Dark Elven deck has got to be in the top 3.  For every single faction-specific card I drew I was like "This is perfect!".
I think you are wrong Marcus, and here is why:
I would possibly allow that Rome has a better command deck than M&M. I don't think so, but a case could be made either way IMO. Either way Corey nailed it; The top two spots go to Rome and M&M. Now Carthage's best cards might not be quite as good as Dark Elves' best cards. But the consistency of Carthage's cards, added to the fact that they synergize so well with their units (Elephants!!!) added to the lack of premium Dark Elf blue cards and the negative synergy that creates with their lack of premium defense stats - that gives Carthage the edge in my book. You could make an argument that the Elephant thing is a unit thing not a command deck thing and/or lack of Dark Elf premium defense stats is a unit thing not a command deck thing. But based on how happy I am on average with my command card draws, (and I have played Dark Elves, Carthage, Monsters and Mercs a lot, maybe more than any other factions) the best command decks are M&M (tiny gap) Rome (small gap) Carthage (tiny gap) Dark Elves (big gap) Fifth Place, in that order.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 05:33:50 AM by BubblePig »

Kevin

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 09:45:59 AM »
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If (Seize the Moment) is so damn good, how come orcs don't rule the world?


I can answer this one.

Because it's the Orcs' faction ability, which means they all paid a 5ish% surcharge for it.  (No faction abiliity = 5ish% discount)  However, since it was part of the Dark Elf Command Deck, Dark Elves got this only-slightly-less-good ability for free!
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 12:20:50 PM »
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If (Seize the Moment) is so damn good, how come orcs don't rule the world?


I can answer this one.

Because it's the Orcs' faction ability, which means they all paid a 5ish% surcharge for it.  (No faction abiliity = 5ish% discount)  However, since it was part of the Dark Elf Command Deck, Dark Elves got this only-slightly-less-good ability for free!

Yeah, what Kevin said.  Against both Orcs & DEs you have to play like he can make his 3.5" units move 5" for a turn.  The difference is that you know the Orcs can do it, therefore when you expend that CA to protect your flank you know that CA is preventing him getting (+0)+1/+1 on two units.  Which is almost always worth the CA.  By contrast the DEs force you to expend that CA, but it might be for nothing.  So now you've used a CA for no gain[1]

Again, this is not insurmountable.  You can build your army and/or assign standing orders knowing this situation.  For example, I often take Earth Elementals purely to be a brick wall on one flank.  Yes that guy's gonna get pinched, but he's 12 boxes of Fearless T4.  If he wants to use Seize the Initiative to pinch with those two Highblood units, that's 400-500pts that will spend the majority of the game chewing through my 345pt unit.  That's just one option of course, and there's several others.  But the point is that you can deal with DE tricks.  It just requires you to think different.  If you play them like every other army, you're going to lose.  You have to adapt your tactics to the enemy2.  Which is no different than with most factions:  if you play Ravenwood, the Pow 6 units might stay in the box.  Whereas against Dwarves, they're likely to come out to play.

That being said, I get (what I think is the core of) Brook's frustration:  even if the DEs are balanced, they're annoying to play against.  But I think that ship has sailed.  That faction is out and we need to accept it.  And while I would not have designed the faction this way, I certainly don't think any of the problems with it rise to the level of needing an errata.


[1] which is why I think those +1 MC cards will probably be either very rare in the future of very limited.  For example, Alexander has one, but you'll note we limited its effectiveness to cavalry.  Yeah, it can be used on other units but that's more to cross a distance quickly rather than final rush.  Otherwise it's really only cavalry that are going to hit you from beyond the charge range that you thought.  And really, since all the cavalry move 6" or 7", I feel people were going to protect their flanks with those guys anyway.

That said, with Flank from Front, I think that card gets nastier.  The ability for Sarissophoroi to flank when they're in front and (almost) 7" away from the enemy borders on table-flipping.  Now that I think about it, you can have the same situation crop up with Slave Takers.  For any tournament that has the Flank-from-Front house rule, it might be worth also house ruling that Spring the Trap & Seize the Initiative must be placed face up on the table when you draw it.  That way the other guys knows you have it as a card you can play. 


2 I'm reminded of the game of the HE Chariot-swarm vs Persia, and how bad that went for the same reason.  Against (spear heavy) historicals, cavalry armies aren't usually a good idea.  And Vlachold is going to be similar in that it will force people to play differently.  That's by design.  With the factions Scott & I develop, we try to have them play differently (and I suspect Kevin & Jaime tried the same thing with Wuxing).  So that they're not just cookie cutter factions with different artwork.

Hopefully, though, they're still fun to play.   ;D

gornhorror

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2016, 09:07:45 AM »
Yes, they are un-fun to play against because they seem to have an answer for anything the opposing army does.  Not sure why we can't continue to make changes to bring the faction back down to earth.  I'm going to continue to play and play against this faction to see what works best.  The changes I will make, if Marcus is agreeable are these:

1. Slave takers are no longer core.
2. Only one Lashmistress per army build.  If we can't change the ability, maybe we can limit the unit.  Label the unit, Unique.. The units ability is down right annoying with one, definitely broken with two.
3. None of the units are fearsome/terrifying (except for Drake Riders, Coven and Lord of Dusk)  However, on the rest of units they are +3 courage against fear checks.  They don't scare easily because they have seen it all.  You have to start killing them for them to run or be scared.

Start with them.

Then perhaps I might add these.

1. Seize the moment grants only one unit +1 movement class.  However it still gives 2 units +1 dice.  Even with this nerf, the card is still better than Attack storm or Aspect of Wolf IMHO.
2. Limit the Pain Touch to only if the unit was engaged at the start of the turn.  (i.e. not on the charge turn) All other rules still apply.


If I could really have what I want I would also do these:

1. Make Inspiration on the High work but have a range.  You can only use a units courage if it's within say 5 inches.  It's bad enough that a faction that has good courage and a bunch of cheap units has a courage re-roll with a boost.  
2. Either make Slave takers 6" movers or take away one of their green boxes.  

The funny thing is, even with all, most or some of these changes the faction would still be upper tier.  
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Zelc

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2016, 09:14:15 AM »
The best way to figure out a faction is to play it yourself. I'm available on VASSAL if you want a sparring partner :).

BubblePig

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2016, 01:18:44 PM »
With all due respect, Brook, you are wasting your time testing changes based on what it feels like to play against them. I have vassal and tts, we can throw down any time you want on either platform (vassal is free and Bohan did a great job of getting apps to work for BG, so in fairness he should get dibs if you feel like giving either of those a spin.) Play Dark Elves against my Ravenwood just once and see if you still want to limit them to one lashmistress. Until you play them yourself enough times to get a feel for their weaknesses and feel the pain of being on the other side of that equation, you are just going to overestimate their strengths and underestimate their weaknesses.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 02:56:58 PM by BubblePig »

Hannibal

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2016, 02:46:55 PM »
What Ron & Bohan said.  I think those changes are a bad idea, because all its going to do is make DEs more infuriating to play against when you play using the normal rules.  I think the solution is to play DEs more (both with and against them), and you'll learn how to bring them down a peg.


RushAss

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2016, 03:24:25 PM »
I know the boat has sailed on the faction years ago and this is the House Rule section, but of all Brook's proposals the one I would get behind the most is Slave Warriors becoming a standard unit.  Because with them being Core, you have a plethora of cheesy build options.  I don't see the occasional cheesy build being a problem, but if you have a huge number of cheesy builds available then it becomes one IMO.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

BubblePig

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Re: Dark Elf Faction Review
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 04:59:12 PM »
If you want to download the VASSAL module you can use the Join us on VASSAL! link in Zelc's sig, or the more roundabout Useful BG links link in my sig. Just sayin...