Author Topic: Large Unit Buff  (Read 6480 times)

Hannibal

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2016, 11:16:51 AM »
Since we appear to be discussing Fear, can I throw another one out there on a KISS basis?
Any unit making a close combat attack against a Fearsome unit takes a penalty of (-1) 0/0
Terrifying give (-2) instead.

Is having 1 less die on every attack against you as good as having two units at Pow 6?

I'm really sad that I didn't think of this approach first.  I have the formula and could get some baseline numbers.

A generic unit (i.e. O:(5)5/5, D:2/2, Mv 3.5", Cge 12, 4G/3Y/3R) is 192 pts.  If you lowered its number of attacks to 4 dice (to represent the -1 die penalty you proposed), then they would be 167pts or a 25pt reduction.  That's a 13% decrease, which is way better than the 4% that Fearsome gets charged.  In that hypothetical, if you had 7 Fearsome DE units, you'd get an average return of 175pts, which is more than double the effect you'd get for the 80pts you spend.

So while the KISS idea is a bit too good, the methodology is a good one.  And thanks for putting us on that track!

If Fearsome is worth 4%, then we want something that has an approximate value of 8pts on a 192pt unit.  If 1 die is worth 25pts, but we make it so that you have to take a Cge check every turn then Fearsome only works about 1/4 of the time (because the enemy would pass its Fear check on a Cge 12 about 3/4 of time).  25 * 1/4 = ~6pts

Still a little off.  But if you make Fearsome checks a -1 Cge, then the normal unit is failing 1/3 of the time.  25 * 1/3 = 8pts.  Now we're on the money.

So from a strictly math POV, that's work.  Of course from a KISS perspective, it might be a little hard to remember:  every turn, at a -1 Cge for not that great a payout in terms of -1 die.

Another option is to make it an 'every turn' check (at no penalty) but have it be a (-0)-1/-0 for the enemy.  For a normal unit, going from Skill 5 to Skill 4 is a 36pt decrease.  Again assuming the enemy passes it 3/4 of the time, that means:  36 * 1/4 = 9 pts.

Pretty dang close to the 8pts that Fearsome would cost on a normal unit.  And who knows, maybe this would work because a lot of Fearsome units are D:1/3, which makes playing things like Parry a waste of time.  Now when the other guy fails the fear check, it might expand the options when it comes to card play.  Just a thought.

gornhorror

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2018, 11:23:12 AM »
What about having any unit with the large keyword do two damage with any natural 1's rolled on the "to damage roll".  This would only be against smaller units.  That could be an ability strictly for Large units.  Fearsome/Terrifying could be a totally separate thing.  Just a thought because there are units that are just Fearsome and not large.  (i.e. Dark Elves).  Hmmm, come to think of it, are there any units that are Large without fearsome?  I'm thinking no, of the top of my head.  So they would get both abilities, benefits of large AND fearsome. Whatever they end up being.

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RushAss

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2018, 01:25:13 PM »
I'd certainly limit it to an additional point of damage for the attack if any 1's are rolled.  Otherwise a hot roll could really swing the game.
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Kevin

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2018, 01:34:47 PM »
Quote
What about having any unit with the large keyword do two damage with any natural 1's rolled on the "to damage roll".  This would only be against smaller units.

That's a highly-variable ability with essentially the same damage increase as +1 power. 

I still maintain that Large is fine, the issue is that higher speed was priced a bit too high.  Zombie Trolls (Large MC 3.5") are fantastic; Wolfkin (non-Large MC 5") are kind of weak.  Similarly, cavalry were overpriced and needed that free Impact Hit because MC 6" was so damn expensive.  MC 7" gets all that and then the free "fast moving target" help vs. ranged.

The other time Large can suck is when you're the Undead or (to a lesser extent) Monsters & Mercs and EVERY decent unit in your army is vulnerable to spears.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

gornhorror

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2018, 03:07:29 PM »
I'd certainly limit it to an additional point of damage for the attack if any 1's are rolled.  Otherwise a hot roll could really swing the game.

Yeah sure,  limit it to only allowing it to occur once. 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 03:30:42 PM by gornhorror »
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gornhorror

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2018, 03:53:14 PM »
I'm just throwing stuff out there and seeing if it sticks. 

What if the spear bonus only was +1/+1.  That would still be a good boost but help out large units at the same time. 

+1/+1 would also tone down some of the historical armies as well, since they are loaded with spears, which in turn will help cavalry AND large....

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Hannibal

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2018, 12:36:26 PM »
I still maintain that Large is fine, the issue is that higher speed was priced a bit too high.  Zombie Trolls (Large MC 3.5") are fantastic; Wolfkin (non-Large MC 5") are kind of weak. 

I don't think it's the speed that makes those units good or weak.  In fact, MC 5" is the best return on investment speed improvement in the formula.  Every MC boost (or downgrade) is a flat +.25 modifier.  Going from 3.5" to 5" is a 1.25 modifier.  5" to 6" is a 1.5 modifier, and so on.  But going from 3.5" to 5" is +1.5" of move.  You get a 42% boost in speed for a 25% increase in that modifier.  Going from 5" to 6" is a 20% boost for 20%cost increase.  From 6" to 7" is a 17% boost in speed for a 17% increase in cost.


Quote
Similarly, cavalry were overpriced and needed that free Impact Hit because MC 6" was so damn expensive. 

Having been around when the impact hit was added, I can tell you first hand that wasn't the reason.


Quote
MC 7" gets all that and then the free "fast moving target" help vs. ranged.

Agreed that shouldn't be free.  And in fact, probably shouldn't exist at all.


What if the spear bonus only was +1/+1.  That would still be a good boost but help out large units at the same time. 

You should talk to Scott.  He's wanted to tweak the Pow bonus for Spears for a long time.  I'm not opposed to it but it's going to be 1) a huge errata, 2) need some serious playtesting by not me, and 3) need to be done soon.  The next edition of the rules are coming out soon, and so if you want this to be a thing, then you don't have oceans of time.

RushAss

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2018, 02:53:59 PM »
You should talk to Scott.  He's wanted to tweak the Pow bonus for Spears for a long time.  I'm not opposed to it but it's going to be 1) a huge errata, 2) need some serious playtesting by not me, and 3) need to be done soon.  The next edition of the rules are coming out soon, and so if you want this to be a thing, then you don't have oceans of time.

We may not require any serious urgency here.  If this is something we want to do, we could test it over time and await the next rules update.  So what if it takes a year or two?  While I agree that the spear bonus could be toned down, it's not drastically breaking games IMO.  We'd have plenty of time to test it.  We have enough crap to scramble over for the Hawk release, yes?
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
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Hannibal

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2018, 03:17:30 PM »
You should talk to Scott.  He's wanted to tweak the Pow bonus for Spears for a long time.  I'm not opposed to it but it's going to be 1) a huge errata, 2) need some serious playtesting by not me, and 3) need to be done soon.  The next edition of the rules are coming out soon, and so if you want this to be a thing, then you don't have oceans of time.

We may not require any serious urgency here.  If this is something we want to do, we could test it over time and await the next rules update.  So what if it takes a year or two?  While I agree that the spear bonus could be toned down, it's not drastically breaking games IMO.  We'd have plenty of time to test it.  We have enough crap to scramble over for the Hawk release, yes?

If we're going to make a major errata to every single faction (31 total units over 15 factions), then I'd want to do it now.  I think we have a lot of leeway to make major changes & erratas with our first release, because the game is under 'new management.' IMO people will give us the cover to modernize the rules, and use erratas to cover it.  But if we release Hawkshold and then immediately errata 3 of the units, I think that looks bad.

opimius

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Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2018, 08:07:57 PM »
Fearsome and spears both brought up as new topics in the rules team forum.