Large Unit Buff

[RushAss]

That's what they get for not getting the hell out of the way!!!!!    

Just think about what you just said there.  Greatswordsmen.  Being able to get out of the way of anything 

How about a -1 to the courage if any damage that is taken that causes a rout check. 

I think this is much better

[Hannibal]

Here's something super wacky.  Units engaged with Fearsome/Terrifying units have to roll a Fear/Terror check when they succeed a route check from damage.  In other words, if a unit of Trolls forces a yellow route check on a unit of Swordsmen and the Swordsmen pass, they must now pass a fear check for that turn as well.  

Edit: I just realized that the combat for that turn would already be over and a failed Fear check would be meaningless.  The Fear check would have to occur on the following M&C phase and that could get clunky because you'd have to remember it for the next turn.  I suck.

I love this idea in concept (as you said, the issue of the following turn would have to be worked out).  I'd be all for it were it not for one faction:  Dark Elves.

[RushAss]

Yup, I was thinking the exact same thing.  It would only apply to units that had both the Large/Colossal and Fearsome/Terrifying keywords.

[Hannibal]

I remember we talked about this a long time ago, and Niko made a very compelling argument that when you start having X+Y = Z special rules it's rather confusing/frustrating for new players.  I tend to agree, honestly.

It'd almost be simpler to errata away Fearsome on DEs.

[gornhorror]

I had an idea for the dark elves at the tournament that I ran at DexCon.  Just give them bonuses on their fear checks and take away fearsome.  This way you could keep their prices the same.   I think what the dark elves went through as a race would make them more brave than scary.  I never like the fact that they were fearsome.  I would never run away from a hot female elf with a skimpy outfit, big jugs, phat ass and a whip.  No matter how bad she was beating me up.

[NegativeZer0]

I had an idea for the dark elves at the tournament that I ran at DexCon.  Just give them bonuses on their fear checks and take away fearsome.  This way you could keep their prices the same.   I think what the dark elves went through as a race would make them more brave than scary.

Except this is a horrendously BAD idea.  
I'm sorry, I know I'm being really blunt and possibly even rude but you want to replace an over costed ability with a worse version of that ability and not change points cost at all.

Fear is already over priced.  
Having flat out immunity to fear is WAY less useful and WAY WAY more situational than fear (and thus worth even less points)
Finally having yet another army that is immune to fear would make the cost paid by the rest of the units with fear even more useless and overpriced than it already is.


Full disclosure: I have no intention of playing DE at DexCon, I don't like playing the same faction 2 cons in a row.

You have some crusade against DE when they aren't even the best army in the game.  They are roughly on the same level as Rome, Lizardmen and Umenzi.  
Instead of nerfing DE we should be looking at ways to bring some of the weaker factions up in power.

I never like the fact that they were fearsome.  I would never run away from a hot female elf with a skimpy outfit, big jugs, phat ass and a whip.  No matter how bad she was beating me up.

Really you wouldn't be afraid of an army that is known for enslaving then sadistically and brutally torchering the survivors after a battle?
And even if you weren't afraid of this there are several sources for Dark elf lore that gives precedence that the fear the DE cause is only partially due to their reputation and partially magically/psychically enduced.  Since the DE in our game are the most magically inclined army it makes sense that DE fear could be magically enduced thus explaining why even basic units cause fear.

[RushAss]

Really you wouldn't be afraid of an army that is known for enslaving then sadistically and brutally torturing the survivors after the battle?
And even if you weren't afraid of this there are several sources for Dark elf lore that gives precedence that the fear the DE cause is only partially due to their reputation and partially magically/psychically enduced.  Since they in our game DE are the most magical army it makes sense that DE fear could be magically enduced.

This isn't really concerning Large units nor is it concerning Dark Elven balance.  More just for the sake of discussion.  We've had discussions about how some units are Fearsome and others aren't.  Where do yuo draw the line and why would certain units find others to be fearsome?  I get the thing about the Dark Elves' reputation proceeding them and even a hint of magic coming into play.  But I still find it rediculous that a Bear Pack would give 2 hoots about any of that upon engagement.  Same with Tyrants.  Seriously, think about what Tyrants are.  300+ pound, 7 foot tall weapon weilding monstrousities.  And yeah, they know what happens to them if captured.  The same way Dark Elves know that if they are captured the Tyrants could very well eat them.  And then you have units like Umenzi Chosen (gifted by the Gods) or Celestial Guard (hundreds, perhaps thousands of years old and the best of the best) that I'd also have a hard time believing that a unit of Blades is going to bother them in the least bit.

Just thinking out loud here.

[Kevin]

I recall Niko (creator of the Dark Elves) once saying that Dark Elf Fearsome is due to their magic aura.  Since magic is whatever you want it to be, that'd work on bears.  Maybe to Bears Highblood Dark Elves smell like a forest fire?

I'm sorry, I know I'm being really blunt and possibly even rude but you want to replace an over costed ability with a worse version of that ability and not change points cost at all.

Yeah, this too.

[Hannibal]

What Kevin said.

I think there's ample evidence that the Dark Elves are the masters of enchantment and illusion.  The Lashmistresses, for example.

From a story POV, it makes perfect sense that a Tyrant would be scared of a Lord of Dusk.  The Lords are radiating an aura of primal terror, something that all living beings possess right next to the urge to eat and procreate.

From a rules design perspective...boy did it paint us into a corner.

[Hannibal]

Fear is already over priced.  

You know, this just might be the case.  Having looked at the surcharge, I'm hard pressed to disagree.  I mean if you took nothing but an army of 6 Highbloods and a Dusklance, you'd spend like 80pts on the ability.  That's enough to upgrade 2 of those Highbloods to Duskblades.  Is having 2-3 units fail a fear check once a game worth having Pow 6 all game on 2 units?  I tend to think not.

What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.

[RushAss]

Fear is already over priced. 

You know, this just might be the case.  Having looked at the surcharge, I'm hard pressed to disagree.  I mean if you took nothing but an army of 6 Highbloods and a Dusklance, you'd spend like 80pts on the ability.  That's enough to upgrade 2 of those Highbloods to Duskblades.  Is having 2-3 units fail a fear check once a game worth having Pow 6 all game on 2 units?  I tend to think not.

What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.

That's one option though I'm not a fan of having to roll for the check every turn.  We'd be forgetting that all the time.  Here's a run down of proposed options for Fearsome/Terrifying I've seen so far in this thread:

1 (from me) - Fear always works when a unit is final rushed by a Fearsome guy and the penalty is (-1) -0/0.  I'd add that Terrifying would be (-2) -0/0.

2 (from Brook) - any unit attacking/charging unit gets an automatic (-1) +0/+0 if up against a large/fearsome unit.  Then they roll the fear check.  If they fail, they lose an additional (-1) +0/+0, essentially loosing their charge bonus of +2 dice.

3 (from Ron) - you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines.

4 (from Dave) - Any unit engaging with a Fearsome/Terrifying unit needs to make a fear check.  Plus The penalty for a failed fear check is not only (-1) / -1 / -1 for that turn, but also -1 on all courage checks that turn.

5 (from Brook) - Fears stays as is.  In addition, a -1 to the courage if any damage that causes a rout check is inflicted by a Fearsome unit.  (My addition to this) -2 if the damage comes from a Terrifying unit.

6 (from Corey) - What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.

[Hannibal]

That's one option though I'm not a fan of having to roll for the check every turn.  We'd be forgetting that all the time. 

Do you forget to make your attack rolls every turn?

I think that part of why people forget about Fearsome is that it's only something that happens on the charge turn.  If it was something that was rolled every turn, people would get more in the habit of doing it and would likely remember.

[gncamama]

I'd like to throw out this idea:

Allow Large/Colossal units to reform while engaged...
- reasoning: I'm assuming units can't reform after engagement due to the difficulty of having a large formation reorder itself while also being in combat.  Large/Colossal units are normally single units or pairs (with some small groups like Ogres) and so don't rely on staying in formations as much or find changing their positions easier.
- it would allow Large/Colossal units to react appropriately to flanking/pinching attacks and effectively make them more durable
- it won't buff the Dark Elves (except for Drake Riders) since it is not fear-based
- it would feel thematic and different from non-large/colossal units than a straight up combat bonus

[RushAss]

I'd like to throw out this idea:

Allow Large/Colossal units to reform while engaged...
- reasoning: I'm assuming units can't reform after engagement due to the difficulty of having a large formation reorder itself while also being in combat.  Large/Colossal units are normally single units or pairs (with some small groups like Ogres) and so don't rely on staying in formations as much or find changing their positions easier.
- it would allow Large/Colossal units to react appropriately to flanking/pinching attacks and effectively make them more durable
- it won't buff the Dark Elves (except for Drake Riders) since it is not fear-based
- it would feel thematic and different from non-large/colossal units than a straight up combat bonus

This is a good idea and this has been brought up before.  I was actually a champion of this sort of thing.  I always thought it was silly that a Hill Giant or something along those lines would be stuck in place and unable to turn to face a bucnh of Swarmlings that had attacked it on the flank.  I still feel that way.  But as I understand it, the game designers really wanted to reward players for out-maneuvering their opponents.  Most other players liked that line of reasoning so the proposal died.

My proposal was something like this:
At the begining of your Movement and Command phase you may spend a command action to rotate an engaged unit 90 degrees that is 1) at least 1 size class larger than it's opponent and 2) only engaged with a single unit (i.e. this can't happen in a pinch).  The penalty for being flanked still applies for that turn but goes away afterwards. 

[Karasu]

Fear is already over priced. 

You know, this just might be the case.  Having looked at the surcharge, I'm hard pressed to disagree.  I mean if you took nothing but an army of 6 Highbloods and a Dusklance, you'd spend like 80pts on the ability.  That's enough to upgrade 2 of those Highbloods to Duskblades.  Is having 2-3 units fail a fear check once a game worth having Pow 6 all game on 2 units?  I tend to think not.

What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.

That's one option though I'm not a fan of having to roll for the check every turn.  We'd be forgetting that all the time.  Here's a run down of proposed options for Fearsome/Terrifying I've seen so far in this thread:

1 (from me) - Fear always works when a unit is final rushed by a Fearsome guy and the penalty is (-1) -0/0.  I'd add that Terrifying would be (-2) -0/0.

2 (from Brook) - any unit attacking/charging unit gets an automatic (-1) +0/+0 if up against a large/fearsome unit.  Then they roll the fear check.  If they fail, they lose an additional (-1) +0/+0, essentially loosing their charge bonus of +2 dice.

3 (from Ron) - you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines.

4 (from Dave) - Any unit engaging with a Fearsome/Terrifying unit needs to make a fear check.  Plus The penalty for a failed fear check is not only (-1) / -1 / -1 for that turn, but also -1 on all courage checks that turn.

5 (from Brook) - Fears stays as is.  In addition, a -1 to the courage if any damage that causes a rout check is inflicted by a Fearsome unit.  (My addition to this) -2 if the damage comes from a Terrifying unit.

6 (from Corey) - What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.

Since we appear to be discussing Fear, can I throw another one out there on a KISS basis?
Any unit making a close combat attack against a Fearsome unit takes a penalty of (-1) 0/0
Terrifying give (-2) instead.

Is having 1 less die on every attack against you as good as having two units at Pow 6?