Author Topic: Large Unit Buff  (Read 3821 times)

Kevin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5085
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2016, 09:17:18 PM »
Quote
In the perfect world, Fear would be 4 Courage Checks, A(-1)-0/-0 for each failed one. Makes it more reliable. It might work on VASSAL, but that's too much dice rolling in real life Smiley.

Yeah, but I still like it!  :)
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2016, 03:10:09 PM »
I had suggested this to Chad quite a few years back.  What about if we gave all large units a -1/+1 to their defense against ranged shooting.  This would simulate both the ease in which they are hit but also their thick hide. 

On the topic of Fearsome for large units......why can't we make it have a little more frequency.  How about making people roll their fear checks at a -1 for fearsome and a -2 or -3 for Terryfying.
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

BubblePig

  • Shoeless God of War
  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Y'all are just hating on my steez.
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2016, 06:39:23 PM »
Hmmm.... You mean something like this:

Well, I can see how the people designing Undead just sort of naturally wanted to link Fearsome with courage. The automatic thing bothers me though. Personally I think it would be better from a thematic perspective if the penalty were smaller but it wasn't stepped as two levels, for example just spitballing but say you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus period and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines. It seems silly to me that Triarii for example lose hard no matter what under the latest proposal, but linking it to the charge bonus dice corrects for that automatically. The point being that an ordinary 12 courage you should fail fearsome at least 50ish or even 60ish percent of the time and terrifying significantly more of the time than that. I really feel strongly that there needs to be a significant bump for terrifying over fearsome, even more than there is now. It seems as if I have the same problem with terrifying that you guys have with fearsome, i.e. it just seems silly and almost flavorless.
 

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2016, 09:43:13 AM »
Yup. Something along those lines.  But not for Dark Elsf units save Lord of Dusk.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 09:47:54 AM by gornhorror »
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Dave-SWA

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
  • The Schenectady Wargamers Association
    • The Schenectady Wargamers Association
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2016, 06:14:37 PM »
Late to the discussion.  My suggestions:

1.  Any unit engaging with a Fearsome/Terrifying unit needs to make a fear check. 

Current rule 7.7 says "if a unit is charged by a fearsome or terrifying unit this turn, it must make a fear check...".

If a unit is fearsome/terrifying, most units will hesitate to fight it.  Even if you are hitting it in the flank/rear.  Even if the fearsome unit is on Hold. 
I have long disagreed with the wording that says the fear check kicks in only if you are charged by the fearsome unit.

Please note the ambiguity of the last paragraph of rule 7.7:
"If a unit that is neither fearsome nor terrifying becomes engaged with a terrifying unit, it makes its fear check at a -2 penalty."

If that is not enough...


2.  The penalty for a failed fear check is not only (-1) / -1 / -1 for that turn, but also -1 on all courage checks that turn.

Is this not totally logical?  If you are afraid, why doesn't that affect morale checks too?


TotalCon 2016 session reports coming soon.

-DC
Schenectady Wargamers Association
An Adventure Gaming club serving the Capital District of upstate New York for over 40 years.
Council of Five Nations (Sept 29 - Oct 1, 2017) - this is our 40th, the Ruby Anniversary.  It will be extra special this year!
www.swa-gaming.org

elgin_j

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2016, 06:47:19 PM »
I've always wondered about the bonuses for shooting large targets.  Is a formed body of soldiers not a larger and more easily hit target than a small group of trolls et al..?
toodle pip

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2016, 04:15:40 PM »
I'm wondering if the discount that large units get could be made to be less of a discount.  Then that way they could get something that allows them to have more of an advantage in a fight under certain circumstances.  They really don't get anything for being large.  Perhaps we could say that any ones rolled on the to damage roll do an extra point of damage or spur on another fear check, or whatever.  I think it would make the game more fun.

There, it started a new(old) conversation.

 ;D

This discussion board has been a ghost town lately.
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Kevin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5085
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2016, 06:48:59 PM »
FWIW, my view isn't that Large units are overpriced, but that faster speeds were all a bit overpriced, and that most Large units are MC 5".  Zombie Trolls, who are large and MC 3.5", are an absolutely magnificent unit for their cost.

And yes, it's that long quiet after the big tournament.  Longer this year, but I expect to be playing a game with Blakely before the end of the month, and one with Jaime in early May.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 09:52:05 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3779
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2016, 10:49:13 AM »
I'm wondering if the discount that large units get could be made to be less of a discount. 

Wouldn't that make them more expensive?

FWIW, my view isn't that Large units are overpriced, but that faster speeds were all a bit overpriced, and that most Large units are MC 5".  Zombie Trolls, who are large and MC 3.5", are an absolutely magnificent unit for their cost.

The proper price of speed in this game is hard to pin down because a mix of terrain, scenario, and special conditions can very the value of it so much.  There will be games where you want to put a fast moving Large unit smack dab in the center of your line and you won't get much value out of their speed at all.  There will be other games with terrain where you sure are happy you have that speed because it made more sense to put the big guy out on the edge or in a place where it can claim the top of a hill quickly.  If every game was played on the exact same map with the exact same conditions it would be easy to acurately assess the value of MC 5+ but that's not the case.  I'm not really sure what can be done.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:51:36 AM by RushAss »
"I have memory and awareness - But I have no shape or form
As a disembodied spirit I am dead and yet unborn
I have passed into Olympus as was told in tales of old
To the city of Immortals, marble white, and purest gold"
-Rush, Hemispheres

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2016, 10:13:27 PM »
Quote
Wouldn't that make them more expensive?
Quote


What I mean is that give them less of a discount for being large and a little boost offensively and call it a wash.  I just think being large should give you some kind of offensive advantage, like hitting harder or something to that effect.  Being easier to hit with archery, and having a fearsome ability that usually doesn't benefit them just isn't right in my opinion.

Perhaps units with the large fearsome keywords force their opponent to roll fear checks after every turn in which they were damaged.   

Where's this shade, that you got it made?

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3779
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2016, 09:58:10 AM »
Here's something super wacky.  Units engaged with Fearsome/Terrifying units have to roll a Fear/Terror check when they succeed a route check from damage.  In other words, if a unit of Trolls forces a yellow route check on a unit of Swordsmen and the Swordsmen pass, they must now pass a fear check for that turn as well.  

Edit: I just realized that the combat for that turn would already be over and a failed Fear check would be meaningless.  The Fear check would have to occur on the following M&C phase and that could get clunky because you'd have to remember it for the next turn.  I suck.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 01:30:20 PM by RushAss »
"I have memory and awareness - But I have no shape or form
As a disembodied spirit I am dead and yet unborn
I have passed into Olympus as was told in tales of old
To the city of Immortals, marble white, and purest gold"
-Rush, Hemispheres

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2016, 01:01:41 PM »
That's an idea also, but that doesn't help them chop through chump stacks any quicker.   

I just thought of this, what about if when a large unit deals damage the amount of damage it deals is subtracted from a units courage if it causes a rout check?


Example:

A unit of Orc Trolls is up against a unit of Ravenwood Swordsmen.  The Swordsmen already has 2 green boxes marked off from the charge turn.  Then on the subsequent turn the Trolls deal 2 damage and cause a rout check.  The rout check is made at a -2.

Something like that...
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3779
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2016, 01:32:29 PM »
Until a T-Rex barrels into a unit of Hawk Greatswordsmen and they have to roll a courage check at a -5.
"I have memory and awareness - But I have no shape or form
As a disembodied spirit I am dead and yet unborn
I have passed into Olympus as was told in tales of old
To the city of Immortals, marble white, and purest gold"
-Rush, Hemispheres

gornhorror

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
  • Goony goo-goo!
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2016, 03:07:37 PM »
That's what they get for not getting the hell out of the way!!!!! :)    I'm just throwing stuff out there, maybe it will work, maybe it won't. 

How about a -1 to the courage if any damage that is taken that causes a rout check. 
Where's this shade, that you got it made?

Kevin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5085
Re: Large Unit Buff
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2016, 03:32:01 PM »
Quote
Here's something super wacky.  Units engaged with Fearsome/Terrifying units have to roll a Fear/Terror check when they succeed a route check from damage.  In other words, if a unit of Trolls forces a yellow route check on a unit of Swordsmen and the Swordsmen pass, they must now pass a fear check for that turn as well. 

Edit: I just realized that the combat for that turn would already be over and a failed Fear check would be meaningless.  The Fear check would have to occur on the following M&C phase and that could get clunky because you'd have to remember it for the next turn.  I suck.

Fwiw, I like the idea.  It might overpower Fearsome slightly, but that's always fixable by making the penalty (-0) -1/-1 instead of (-1) -1/-1. 
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill