Dexcon 18 (July 3-5) Saturday Photo Dump

[RushAss]

Photos from Saturday's action.


Dave's Amazons take on Steve's Wuxing.  I believe this is the only game Dave won with the Amazons this weekend.


A close up shot of the Amazons in Dave's game against Steve


3000 points of High Elves commanded by Brook taking on 1500 points worth of Orcs commanded by Eric and 1500 points of Persia commanded by myself.  Yes, I HATE this map.  I hated it even more as the game unfolded.


Another look at the deployment.  Who would have thought that the lake would go completely ignored?


Closing...


Still closing...


Same point in the game as the above, just from a different angle.  So still closing...


Finally got there!  Oh where the Elephants ever frisky by the time they finally arrived.


Oh for the love of God!  Saturday night's big game featured 3000 points per side with Eric's Orcs and Brook's Men of Hawkshold teaming up to take on the exotic forces of Dave's Wuxing and my Persian forces.  I swore up and down that I was going to favor a more traditional infantry line for this game and leave the Elephants in the box.  Then Dave had this idea to pick TWO Kingdoms terrain cards and put them together.  So that's how the mess you see above happened.  So yeah, there was just no way I could reasonably get away with leaving Elephants in the box.  Sheesh.


Our opponent's light cavalry where able to lead the Jade Dragon around by the nose while the right side of our line awaited the enemy charge.  They totally out played us on our left and I remember our ranged fire to be less than optimal.

It's possible that I'll be able to do a true write up for a few of the games from Friday and Saturday.  The one I remember best was the one with the big flargin' lake.  I think I'll start with that one.

Sorry folks, I didn't get any photos from Sunday.  I was just too washed out by that point.  Sue me!

[Hannibal]

Nice stuff.  And you are a bad, bad man with those Elephants.      Seriously, between Persia & Umenzi, people are going to start wondering if you're trying to compensate for something.   


The HE vs Orcs-Persia looks like a tough one for High Elves.  Normally High Elves have a good incentive to take those Scorpions, because even if the Persia player doesn't take Elephants, the Scorpions are Skill 6 and can still do a fair bit of damage.  But it looks like you deployed wisely enough to shield those Elephants.  I wonder if Brook had deployed behind the lake if he could've used that to his advantage.  I dunno.  I don't have much experience with stand & shoots because I think ranged combat is weak in this game.


The Wuxing-Persia team up is interesting.  And yeah, with that terrain, you kind of have to take the Elephants.  A shame that the Dragon got led around (good play by your opponents).  I think a better place for the Dragon and the Elephants is trudging right through that swamp.  Still that terrain was going to make a mess of your battle plans.  And I thought we had some crazy terrain at our last tournament!   

[Kevin]

The problem with the Orc+Persia vs. High Elves battle was that 300 points were pissed down the drain on a Goblin Bomb Chucker  which could only hit on 1s with no cards playable.  On a related note, the High Elf Scorpions are scary good for the cost (why I boost their price at Championship), as--in practice- nearly all the time they're equivalent to Hawkshold Longbowmen for 98 points cheaper.  Still the game doesn't look totally over by the last photo, so I'm wondering what happened at the end there.

It's hard to tell much about a game from just the set up photo, but in the Wuxing-Amazons battle if Wuxing didn't spread out and instead gave a free pinch on one flank or the other then that pretty much explains the loss right there.  Wuxing could have spread out, though (but what's the point on deploying units behind others?), so I'm curious as to what happened.

I'd most like to see a full report about the [edited] Orcs + Hawkshold vs. Wuxing + Persia game.  Who was the Rocket Arrow Battery shooting at?  And yeah, the Jade Dragon got totally outplayed there.  It's actually a surprisingly good unit to just fling into the middle of the enemy line and go to town rather than to be a flank guard.

[RushAss]

The problem with the Orc+Persia vs. High Elves battle was that 300 points were pissed down the drain on a Goblin Bomb Chucker  which could only hit on 1s with no cards playable.  On a related note, the High Elf Scorpions are scary good for the cost (why I boost their price at Championship), as--in practice- nearly all the time they're equivalent to Hawkshold Longbowmen for 98 points cheaper.  Still the game doesn't look totally over by the last photo, so I'm wondering what happened at the end there.

Eric had this idea to flatten the damage curve for the Chukker and he wanted to try it out this game.  IIRC he would roll 3 d3 for attacks with no missfire.  So this would average out to be (5.5) 5/6 and he considered it to be a viable tournament unit in that configuration.  But yeah, it really didn't do much at all.

I'd most like to see a full report about the Wuxing + Hawkshold vs. Orcs + Persia game.  Who was the Rocket Arrow Battery shooting at?  And yeah, the Jade Dragon got totally outplayed there.  It's actually a surprisingly good unit to just fling into the middle of the enemy line and go to town rather than to be a flank guard.

See, I was a bit hammered by the end of that game (which ended around 1:30?) and I only had 2 pics so I'll have a hard time recreating it.  I'll probably do a brief summary of it soon.  The Rocket Arrow Battery was shooting at Orc Axemen and after the first couple of shots it really went South on Dave.  We had 3 straight turns of the Battery doing zero damage at 4s and 2s.  And my Saka Horse Archers only inflicted a sad 3 points of damage all game long.  I think I got the same amount of damage from Elephant Howdah attacks fo Pete's sake!

And BTW - it was Orcs/Hawks vs. Wuxing/Persia

[Hannibal]

The problem with the Orc+Persia vs. High Elves battle was that 300 points were pissed down the drain on a Goblin Bomb Chucker  which could only hit on 1s with no cards playable. 

I agree. Even with the changes that Eric made, I can think of a lot better uses of the 300pts.

On a related note, the High Elf Scorpions are scary good for the cost (why I boost their price at Championship), as--in practice- nearly all the time they're equivalent to Hawkshold Longbowmen for 98 points cheaper. 

Not being able to shoot into melee really brings down their value.  I usually consider them points wasted unless there's a certain context for it.

See, I was a bit hammered by the end of that game (which ended around 1:30?)

This explains a lot.   

[NegativeZer0]

The problem with the Orc+Persia vs. High Elves battle was that 300 points were pissed down the drain on a Goblin Bomb Chucker  which could only hit on 1s with no cards playable.  

I agree. Even with the changes that Eric made, I can think of a lot better uses of the 300pts.

I knew this fully when I took the unit.  The point wasn't so much to win this game but to actually put theory to practice and show there is a viable way to fix the damn bombchucker so it stops being a joke unit.  

I put down a chucker 3 times using these rules.  Only once did I get an amazing roll with 8 attacks.  5-6 dice happened 90% of the time and I had a few rare 4 & 7 attack rolls.  It still preserves the luck element of the chucker where you can get a really good/bad rolls but they are way more uncommon and this unit becomes reliable enough to be played in a serious capacity (just not against elves).  For example despite playing it in 3 games I didn't get a single 3 or 9 result.  

[Hannibal]

I knew this fully when I took the unit.  The point wasn't so much to win this game but to actually put theory to practice and show there is a viable way to fix the damn bombchucker so it stops being a joke unit.

 

Fair enough.  I get what you're saying:  take it against all matchups, even bad ones, to get a feel for whether the change is right.

FWIW I don't think its the random number of attacks or the breakdown that makes it a junk unit.  I think it has to do with the fact that its meant to sit waaaaay back and lob gobbos into the fray, but the Extreme Range penalty means that it's going to be hitting on 1s most times.  To get it to just Long Range is spending valuable turns moving at 2.5" during which you're setting 300pts on fire.

I think the easy fix for the unit is to have it count everything over 7" as Long range and then be done with it.  Opimius recently stated that he thinks the Extreme range penalty should be abolished.  At first I was unsure of that, but it may be something worth exploring.

[RushAss]

FWIW I don't think its the random number of attacks or the breakdown that makes it a junk unit.  I think it has to do with the fact that its meant to sit waaaaay back and lob gobbos into the fray, but the Extreme Range penalty means that it's going to be hitting on 1s most times.  To get it to just Long Range is spending valuable turns moving at 2.5" during which you're setting 300pts on fire.

YES, THIS

I think the easy fix for the unit is to have it count everything over 7" as Long range and then be done with it.  Opimius recently stated that he thinks the Extreme range penalty should be abolished.  At first I was unsure of that, but it may be something worth exploring.

Yeah, I certainly see that being worth a look

[Kevin]

FWIW, this past year there was no Extreme Range penalty at Championship, just as you mention (7+" = long range).  Don't recall if it ever mattered, but nobody griped.

I actually like the 3d3 for making the GBC less flaky, though it slightly increases the average # of shots. and avoiding self-damage isn't insignificant, so it's definitely a modest upgrade.  Not sure one needs to skunk a game to demonstrate the mathematically transparent, but so long as your partner didn't want to slap you silly it's all good.   

[NegativeZer0]

I knew this fully when I took the unit.  The point wasn't so much to win this game but to actually put theory to practice and show there is a viable way to fix the damn bombchucker so it stops being a joke unit.

 

Fair enough.  I get what you're saying:  take it against all matchups, even bad ones, to get a feel for whether the change is right.

FWIW I don't think its the random number of attacks or the breakdown that makes it a junk unit.  I think it has to do with the fact that its meant to sit waaaaay back and lob gobbos into the fray, but the Extreme Range penalty means that it's going to be hitting on 1s most times.  To get it to just Long Range is spending valuable turns moving at 2.5" during which you're setting 300pts on fire.

I think the easy fix for the unit is to have it count everything over 7" as Long range and then be done with it.  Opimius recently stated that he thinks the Extreme range penalty should be abolished.  At first I was unsure of that, but it may be something worth exploring.

We've been all but ignoring the extreme range rule up here in the NE for like 2 years now.  It's a great fix for other units but gobo chucker still suffers way too much from rolling doubles.

[Hannibal]

We've been all but ignoring the extreme range rule up here in the NE for like 2 years now.

What a coincidence, we've been all but ignoring ranged units over here in CA for like 2 years now.  

It's a great fix for other units but gobo chucker still suffers way too much from rolling doubles.

I disagree there.  Rolling doubles is only going to happen 1 time in 6.  If the Bomb chucka rolled 6 dice a turn it'd cost 325 pts.  The chances of rolling 6 dice or more (with no doubles) is 60%.  So usually it's better than a (6)5/6 ranged attack, for cheaper.  What kills the unit is the extreme range penalty.  When we played it at no extreme range, we found it to be a powerful (if unreliable) weapon.

Yeah the Bomb chucka is swingy, but that's what the unit is about.  Its part of the theme of the unit.  And its a popular theme.  Most new players love the randomness of it and aren't put out by the fact that it sometimes blows up on you.

I think the easy fix for the unit is to have it count everything over 7" as Long range and then be done with it.  Opimius recently stated that he thinks the Extreme range penalty should be abolished.  At first I was unsure of that, but it may be something worth exploring.

Yeah, I certainly see that being worth a look

I'd want to look at it as part of a wholesale review of shooting.  Those rules need revisiting nearly from the ground up.

[gornhorror]

I agree with getting rid of the extreme range penalty.  I had that rule at Dexcon.  I do think that ranged units are a bit weak but being able to do support damage to enemy units that are already engaged sometimes reaps big rewards, and this cannot be underestimated.  I have been putting at least 1 to 2 ranged units in my armies for quite some time and I have done just fine.  However, I do think that you give up a lot by having more ranged units in your army.  I've been telling Marcus this for years.   What I think should occur is if a ranged unit gets final rushed it should get one shot off before it becomes engaged, kinda like javelins.   Perhaps we could call it "point blank range" and it could offer some bonus like  +1/+0.  That way ranged units would get a boost and another shot right before they get engaged and get the -2/-2 and get destroyed.

Just a thought.

[Hannibal]

I think taking support shooting^[1] is just shy of okay.  Its a bit weak and that's something I'd like to see addressed if we ever took a good review of shooting. 

Not sure about the point-blank shot, mainly because I'm not sure it'd solve the issue.  I'd like to see them be able to contribute a little more to the fight when the enemy is engaged with your friendly unit.


^[1]  I define support shooting as when you take 1-2 ranged units and have them compliment a line of melee troops, as opposed to hanging back.

[gull2112]

Corey, what are trhe historical precedents (since we are going to be intermingling fantasy and historicals)?

[Hannibal]

Not sure I understand your question.