Author Topic: Amazons - Reborn!  (Read 9773 times)

Dave-SWA

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Amazons - Reborn!
« on: June 09, 2015, 08:17:42 PM »
There has been a lot of discussion in the past about a potential Amazon faction here in the BFW forums, like here http://ymgforum.com/index.php/board,20.0.html, and here http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,2248.0.html.

As Baby Bush says, Chad is "the decider", but I think BFW needs a faction that is primarily Cavalry.  It may be tough to win with such a faction, but we'll see.  And I really like the marketing value of a faction consisting of hot chicks riding horses.

I unveiled version 1 of an Amazon Cavalry faction at DexCon last year.  The Royal Guard Unicorn Cavalry did not live up to their 517 point cost.  I also skimped on special ability and unique cards (as in I had none).

I have put in more work this year, especially since Brook has announced he will allow home-brew factions in the DexCon tournament coming up next month (see thread here:  ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,10179.msg45346/.

Here is what I have so far.  We've got about a month to polish it up and get it ready for a full weekend of Battleground action.

Enjoy,
-DC


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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 08:19:46 PM »
Faction Design

Battleground: Fantasy Warfare does not yet have a faction that is predominantly cavalry.  The Amazons are designed to fill that role.  
Most factions have 12-14 different units, with 0-4 types of cavalry.  Cavalry units make up seven out of the thirteen different Amazon units.
   There has been significant discussion on the YMG forums about concepts for an Amazon faction.  This effort deviates significantly from those earlier ideas.  These Amazons are inspired more by the TV series Xena: Warrior Princess.  They are warrior women who specialize in riding horses and kicking ass.

   The Amazons of the BFW Kingdoms are envisioned as a nomadic culture, tied to life on the saddle.  They are experts at herding cattle and other grazing animals.  Their matriarchal belief system requires that they cast out all male children, devoting their resources to raising their daughters.  They often trade their male babies for orphaned girls from other cultures.  Recognizing that men are still necessary for breeding, they are very selective with whom they are willing to form temporary mating relationships.  Men from around the kingdoms travel to Amazon lands hoping for the opportunity to return home with a son.

   The Amazons have a spiritual, symbiotic relationship with their horses.  This allows exceptional Amazon warriors to bond with magical creatures of the mythic horse lineage, such as Unicorns and Pegasai.  Amazons never lash their horses to mechanical constructs like carts or chariots.  Carts are pulled only by oxen, and chariots are seen not only as contrary to Amazon battle tactics that emphasize mobility, but anathema to their religious beliefs.

   In Battleground, most cavalry units are “glass hammers” – they hit hard, but the units are fragile, having few hit boxes (an average of 6 hit boxes, versus an average of 10 for standard infantry units).  The challenge with playing the Amazons is their predominance of cavalry units; most of their units lack staying power.  There are a few units in the Amazon faction that will help provide balance, but only one of them is a Core unit.  Anyone fighting the Amazons will probably expect to see lots of cavalry.

   The need to achieve a “breakthrough”, penetrating your enemy’s battle line, is often critical to victory in Battleground: Fantasy Warfare.  Since most Amazon units have fewer hit boxes than their opponents, the need to achieve a fast breakthrough with their cavalry is even more important.  Thus, the Amazon’s special faction ability, and some of their custom Command Cards, are geared to forcing the enemy to rout and breaking through their lines.

   Many players will think the best way to defeat an Amazon army is the “stand and shoot” tactic of a line of archers behind a line of spearmen.  While that may often be effective, there is enough variety in the Amazon unit roster to keep enemies guessing.  While Amazon infantry units are in most cases weaker than similar units in other factions, it is very possible for the Amazons to field a force that can deal with Stand and Shoot armies effectively.  This is the “game before the game” that happens during the army build phase.


[OTHER DESIGN NOTES]
[I originally had ideas for Pegasus Archers and Pegasus Lancers, but I have moved away from those based on feedback from the community at DexCon 2014.  I also had Amazon Chariots, but have dropped that idea as not being a good philosophical fit.  If we drop the Maiden Bow unit, I will probably bring back Pegasus Lancers, which will be a unit on par with the Dark Elf Drake Riders.]
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 08:50:37 PM by Dave-SWA »
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 08:22:05 PM »
Amazon Faction Ability

I've got a few ideas.  Not sure which is the way to go at this point.  Throwing it out there for input from the community.


Amazon Battle Cry

Spend 1 CA to mark the Battle Cry box. All enemy units engaged with a unit with Amazon Battle Cry suffer -1 on all Courage checks. In the courage cleanup phase, erase the box when either the Amazon unit or an engaged enemy unit fails a Courage check.

[Is this equitable with other abilities? Perhaps it should be +1 courage for the Amazon unit and -1 courage for engaged enemy units?]

Another Option. 
Mark the box.  Erase the box before an enemy Courage check.  Enemy gets -2 / (-3?) on that check.  Only one Amazon Battle Cry can affect any given Courage check.
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 08:26:06 PM »
Amazon special Command Cards

I have ideas for 7 out of the 10 cards needed.  I have a few other ideas percolating in my head.  I welcome input from the community.

Command Card - Green
Card count: 2
Horse Whisperer
Play during a Command & Control Phase
Choose One:
A friendly unit with the Cavalry keyword gets +2 Movement Class and +2 Courage this turn.
OR
An enemy unit with the Cavalry keyword gets -2 Movement Class and -2 attack dice this turn.
OR
An enemy unit with the Cavalry keyword gets -2 attack dice and -2 Courage this turn.


Command Card – Green
Card count: 1
Pegasus Leap
Play during Command & Control Phase
Spend 1 Command Action.  One unengaged Amazon Cavalry unit can leap up to 7.5” over terrain or other units. It retains its original facing while airborne. It must be able to end the leap movement with all four aiming points on the map. Any of the 7.5” movement left over after landing can be used as normal (ground movement, maneuver, etc.)  The affected unit cannot final rush with this turn.

Command Card – Green
Card count: 2
Cavalry Encirclement
Play during Command & Control Phase
Take direct control or change standing orders of up to five Amazon Cavalry units, or up to two of any Female Amazon units.

Command Card – Green
Card count: 2
Hit and Run
Play during Command & Control Phase on an Amazon Cavalry unit already engaged.  Disengage that unit from combat.  It can use up to its full MC for movement and maneuver. It cannot final rush this turn.
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 08:34:51 PM »
Amazon Units

Many thanks to Marcus for running the costs on version 1 of the faction a year ago.  
There have been a few tweaks, and two totally new units that need costing (Porcupine, Pegasus Harriers).


Lancers
Attack  (6) / 5 / 5*
Defense  2* / 2
Range  -
Courage  12
Move  6"
Hit Boxes  3G, 3Y, 1R
Core
Point Cost = 261
Cavalry, Female
+1 Power & +1 Def on Charge
This unit is very similar to the Hawkshold Light Cavalry unit, except it is a little beefier with one additional yellow hit box. Lancers will probably be the most common unit fielded in Amazon faction armies.



Light Lancers
Attack  (4) / 5 / 5*
Defense  2* / 1
Range  -
Courage  12
Move  7"
Hit Boxes  3G, 2Y, 1R
Core
Point Cost = 177
Cavalry, Female
+1 Power & +1 Def on Charge
This unit is very similar to the Slave Takers in the Dark Elf faction.  



Harriers
Attack  (3) / 5 / 4
Defense  2* / 1
Range  3.5”
Courage  11
Move  7"
Hit Boxes  2G, 2Y, 1R
Core
Point Cost = 140
Cavalry, Javelins, Female
Does not take or give Impact Hits,
-2 dice when attacked by Skirmish, Cav, Ranged
This unit is modeled very closely on the Numidian Cavalry of the Carthage faction.  It’s role is to engage the opponent’s cavalry units and keep them occupied, allowing other Amazon units to either pinch the cavalry or seek breakthrough at other points on the battle line.



Horse Archers
Attack  (4) / 5 / 5
Defense  2* / 1
Range  10.5"
Courage  12
Move  7"
Hit Boxes  2G, 2Y, 2R
Core
Point Cost = 181
Cavalry, Bows, Female
No move & shoot penalty.
(-1)/-1/-1 when engaged.
+1 Def on charge.
Very similar to the M&M Wildmen Horse Archers.  However, they are less suited for direct engagement, and suffer a (-1)/-1/-1 when engaged.  Please note they are also Core, which is definitely not typical for a Horse Archer unit.  You will probably see these units more often than Maiden Bow units.



Maiden Spear
Attack  (5*) / 5* / 5*
Defense  2 / 2
Range  -
Courage  12
Move  3.5"
Hit Boxes  4G, 3Y, 2R
Core
Point Cost = 187
Spears, Female
(-1) on Charge,
+1 Skill vs Cavalry & Large,
+2 Power when Holding vs Charging Cavalry or Charging Large
Young Amazon warriors must prove their worth in battle as ground troops, with spear and bow, before they are granted the status of a warhorse.  Since fewer warriors fill this role, the unit is a little lighter in offense and staying power.  
     In game terms, this is a very typical spear unit except it receives one fewer attack die and it has one fewer hit box than a typical Spear unit from other factions.  Please note this is the only infantry unit in the Amazon faction that fulfills Core build requirements.



Unicorn Lancers
Attack  (7) / 6 / 5*
Defense  2* / 2
Range  3.5"
Courage  13
Move  6"
Hit Boxes  3G, 2Y, 2R
Standard
Point Cost = 407
Cavalry, Javelins, Female
+1 Power & +1 Def on Charge
This is where the “glass hammer” element of the Amazon faction becomes most apparent.  Unicorn cavalry gets extra dice from two sources:
1) An extra base attack die because the Unicorns fight too, and
2) a Javelin attack before the charge.  However, their defensive profile of 2*/2 does not qualify them for the label “heavy cavalry”.  
     [IDEA: Increase attack Power to 6 and remove Javelins]




Maiden Bow
Attack  (4) / 5* / 5*
Defense  1 / 1
Range  14"
Courage  12
Move  3.5"
Hit Boxes  3G, 3Y, 2R
Standard
Point Cost = 165
Bows, Female
(0)/-2/-2 when engaged
A very standard Bow unit.  Exactly the same stats as Hawkshold Bows.
[QUESTION: Drop this unit entirely and just go with Amazon Horse Archers?]




Porcupine
Attack  (3*) / 5* / 5*
Defense  3 / 3, or 2 / 4
Range  10.5”
Courage  13
Move  1.75
Hit Boxes  4G, 4Y, 2R
Standard
Point Cost = 265 ???
Ponderous, Spears, Bows, Female
No penalties when attacking or defending on Flank or Rear.
Spears: (-1) on Charge,
+1 Skill vs Cavalry & Large,
+2 Power when Holding vs Charging Cavalry or Charging Large.
The Amazons have learned over generations of war that many of their foes will field armies of bowmen aligned behind spearmen when invading Amazon lands.  In response, they have created special Porcupine units.  These consist of heavily armored warriors with tower shields and spears facing all directions, with bow-armed troops hiding inside the formation.  The Porcupine units sacrifice speed and offensive ability for defense.  They slowly take and hold ground while their horse-mounted sisters attack enemy weak points.



Rowdy Gang
Attack  (5) / 4 / 4
Defense  1 / 1
Range  -
Courage  10
Move  3.5"
Hit Boxes  3G, 3Y, 3R
Standard
Point Cost = 64
Impulsive, Stupid, Male
No faction ability.
Amazon player cannot play any cards on the Rowdy Gang.
Hundreds of young men with no prospects in life wander to Amazon lands seeking a rare chance at glory and companionship.  The Amazons let them perform menial tasks.  Otherwise they waste in squalid shantytowns in a drunken stupor.  Perhaps one in one thousand will distinguish himself on the battlefield and earn a temporary marriage.
     In game terms, the Rowdy Gang is the Amazon faction’s garbage unit.  At 64 points, they are one of the cheapest garbage units in all the BFW factions.  They are like Hawkshold Peasant Mobs, but with the added burdens of Impulsive and Stupid.




Royal Guard Unicorn Cavalry
Attack  (7*) / 6 / 5*
Defense  3* / 2
Range  3.5"
Courage  14
Move  6"
Hit Boxes  3G, 2Y, 2R
Elite
Point Cost = 517
Cavalry, Javelins, Female
+2 Dice, +1 Power & +1 Def on Charge
This is the centerfold unit of the Amazon faction.  Since the Amazons are “the cavalry faction”, we expect their elite cavalry to be on par with the best cavalry units in the game.  At 517 points, they are indeed more expensive than comparable units (Undead Death Knights, Hawkshold Knights, High Elf Knights, and Dark Elf Dusk Lancers).  They hit incredibly hard, with 11 dice on the charge, plus an impact hit, plus 7 dice of Javelins, before any card play.  They also have superior-but-not-spectacular defensive stats (3*/2).  The Amazons will almost certainly be looking for their breakthrough wherever this unit impacts the enemy line.
     [IDEA: Increase attack Power to 6, increase base attack dice to (8), and remove the +2 extra dice on the charge.  What would this do to the cost?]
     [IDEA #2:  Limit the Javelin attacks to less than 8 dice?]



Pegasus Harriers
Attack  (3) / 5 / 4
Defense  2* / 1
Range  3.5”
Courage  11
Move  6” / 10.5”
Hit Boxes  2G, 2Y, 1R
Elite
Point Cost = 230 ???
Cavalry, Javelins, Flight, Female
Does not take or give Impact Hits,
-2 dice when attacked by Skirmish, Cavalry, Ranged, or Flying Units
Pegasi have wings and can fly, but this makes them more frail and less suited for direct combat.  However, Pegasi are very agile fliers, and the Amazons take advantage of this superior agility.  This unit is the flying equivalent of the Harriers.  It has two roles:
1) engage and tie-up other flying units, and
2) threaten the flanks and rear of armies with no flying units to intercept them.  



Animal Stampede
Attack  (4) / 6 / 6
Defense  2 / 2
Range  -
Courage  13
Move  6"
Hit Boxes  5G, 2Y, 2R
Elite
Point Cost = 294*/244
Large, Fearsome
3 Impact hits. (-2)/-1/-1 if not charging. Remove if Routs. Damage friendly if impact (like Colossal). No cards. Mandatory Close, but can modify. No faction ability.
The Amazons employ a battle tactic where they deliberately stampede a herd of cattle toward the enemy.  There are “cowgirl” riders who can steer the stampede, so it is not totally mindless.  This literal tidal wave of fast-moving beef can crush an enemy unit, but it loses effectiveness quickly once its momentum is spent.  
     In game terms, the Animal Stampede is like a one-shot rocket.  If you get really lucky and blow-up your enemy in one turn, maybe you get more than one shot.  It is like a Triceratops Herd without the staying power.  It is a high-risk unit with the potential for high returns.




Suitors
Attack  (4) / 6 / 5
Defense  2 / 3
Range  -
Courage  13
Move  3.5"
Hit Boxes  3G, 3Y, 2R
Elite
Point Cost = 227
Male
No faction ability.
Not all men who come to Amazon lands seeking a wife are aimless and ill-disciplined.  Some are famous warriors or skilled noblemen.  These men seek the prestige that comes with going home with a son born of an Amazon mother.
     In game terms, the Suitors unit plays a role similar to High Elf Battlesquads.  They have good combat abilities, but their smaller numbers limit their offensive punch and staying power.




« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:32:17 PM by Dave-SWA »
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Torrg

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 10:24:58 PM »
Sweet idea and remake
One thing is missing.

Where is Hannah and her talking horse?
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 07:30:10 PM »
Now there's a man who knows how to sell product!
Stick a horn on that horse's forehead and you're good to go.
 ;D
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:31:45 PM by Dave-SWA »
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 08:00:50 PM »
Here is something a little closer to what you'll see on the battlefield...



This comes from the RuneQuest supplement "Big Rubble".  The Unicorn Riders are an all-female nomadic tribe that scratches-out an existence on the harsh plains of Prax, in the RQ world of Glorantha.  They are another major inspiration for these BFW Amazons.


Here's something with a little more action...



For even more inspiration, I suggest the following Google image searches:

"Xena warrior princess amazons"

"Women warriors riding unicorns"

« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:03:21 PM by Dave-SWA »
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RushAss

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 12:18:20 PM »
Thanks for getting this back up.  Some pretty interesting ideas here.  I'll start with the command cards.

Command Card - Green
Card count: 2
Horse Whisperer
Play during a Command & Control Phase
Choose One:
A friendly unit with the Cavalry keyword gets +2 Movement Class and +2 Courage this turn.
OR
An enemy unit with the Cavalry keyword gets -2 Movement Class and -2 attack dice this turn.
OR
An enemy unit with the Cavalry keyword gets -2 attack dice and -2 Courage this turn.
You may be on to something here.  The second option is just soooo nasty in the right situation.  IMO it feels a bit strong so I'd change the +/- 2 Movement class options to +/- 1 Movement class.  Since the card is so Cavalry dependent, I'd probably change the third option to either "discard this card to draw another card" or "check the ability box on one of your units".

Command Card – Green
Card count: 1
Pegasus Leap
Play during Command & Control Phase
Spend 1 Command Action.  One unengaged Amazon Cavalry unit can leap up to 7.5” over terrain or other units. It retains its original facing while airborne. It must be able to end the leap movement with all four aiming points on the map. Any of the 7.5” movement left over after landing can be used as normal (ground movement, maneuver, etc.)  The affected unit cannot final rush with this turn.
I'm thinking that this would require a LOT of playtesting for balance.  Cool idea though.

Command Card – Green
Card count: 2
Cavalry Encirclement
Play during Command & Control Phase
Take direct control or change standing orders of up to five Amazon Cavalry units, or up to two of any Female Amazon units.
Keep in mind that with the current wording of the command card you are going to have to have a "female" keyword for the units in your faction to identify what units can be effected by this.

Command Card – Green
Card count: 2
Hit and Run
Play during Command & Control Phase on an Amazon Cavalry unit already engaged.  Disengage that unit from combat.  It can use up to its full MC for movement and maneuver. It cannot final rush this turn.
Of all of the command cards, I find this to be the most interesting.  I really like this.  The hidden strength of this card is that the unit you play it on will get another charge turn with an impact hit and all that fun stuff.

You could have a red command card called On The Rag
Play on a unit during an attack before rolling to hit
Re-roll any 6's on the to-damage roll
This unit get's +2 courage for the turn

OK, so maybe the name of the card itself should be changed, but I was serious about the rest of it  ;)
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 11:18:50 AM »
Gents,

I'll be away for a few days.  June 2015 is the 200-year anniversary of Napoleon's battle at Waterloo.  There is a special 24-person game to refight this battle at the West Point Military Museum using the Carnage & Glory rules, hosted by the game's creator.

Link:  http://www.CarnageAndGloryii.com/

I'll respond to comments and have more discussion when I return.

More soon,
-DC
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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 04:13:09 PM »
Have fun Dave!  OK, a couple of thoughts on some units.

Royal Guard Unicorn Cav with ( 8 ) 6/6 and without the +2 dice on the charge are 651 points!  That assumes that the Javelin attack is ( 8 ) 6/6 which is quite frankly insane.  Aside from that, Heavy Cavalry/Knight units don't have javelins.  Take a look at every Javelin tossing Cavalry unit in the game and you'll notice that none of them are Heavy types.  Centaurs are almost an exception but they are more of a tweener unit in that regard.  Now take a look at any Knight type unit (including Greek Companion Cavalry).  None of them have Javelins.  It's a bit much to be tossing javelins while wearing that heavy armor as well as carrying those big, unwieldy lances.  If you want to represent them as being superior to most Knights, Having them be (7) 6/6* which leaves them at exactly 517 points.  If you want to go more hit dice and the High Elven dynamic you can do ( 8 ) 6/5* with +2 offensive power on the charge and you get 522 points.

The Animal Stampede would be 294 points if they didn't get the post-charge engaged penalty, but I really don't know how to account for the penalty in the formula.  Maybe Chad, Kevin, or Corey has an idea?

The Porcupine comes in at 223 points if both the engaged and ranged attacks are (3) 5/5.  Is that where you want it to be?
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Kevin

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2015, 11:11:45 PM »
Quote
The Animal Stampede would be 294 points if they didn't get the post-charge engaged penalty, but I really don't know how to account for the penalty in the formula.  Maybe Chad, Kevin, or Corey has an idea?

I'm tempted to not give a price and just say to scrap it for another unit or heavily modify its stats.  This thing as written is incredibly swingy, with a charge that will really maim most cavalry units.  After that, its attack drops to a truly anemic (2) 5/5 with no cards--cut that in half once it goes into the yellow. 

The fact that it gets no cards means most medium+ infantry units will pitch a good blue card and survive the hit reasonably OK. 

If someone pointed a gun at my head and ordered me to price it, I'd probably say 235 points, using the patented pull-a-number-out-of-the-air method.  But seriously...ick.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

Torrg

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 08:55:41 PM »
Amazon Units

Royal Guard Unicorn Cavalry
Attack  (7*) / 6 / 5*
Defense  3* / 2
Range  3.5"
Courage  14
Move  6"
Hit Boxes  3G, 2Y, 2R
Elite
Point Cost = 517
Cavalry, Javelins, Female
+2 Dice, +1 Power & +1 Def on Charge

My thought would be to make it similar to the "Persian Cav" limit the Javelins to say 3 and then + the attacks engaged.
(3*) ranged attacks to represent they are a formed unit in ranks and it is not as easy to throw the missile with effect.

Royal Guard Unicorn Cavalry
Attack  (3*) / 6 / 5*
Defense  2* / 2
Range  3.5"
Courage  13
Move  6"
Hit Boxes  3G, 2Y, 2R
Elite
Cavalry, Javelins, Female
+3 Dice, +2 Power & +2 Def on Charge

With 6" MC I think it is hard to qualify them as "Heavy" Cav and therefore drop the defense to 2/2, 13 Courage is on par with the other Heavy Knights.
+3 Dice, +2 Power & +2 Def on Charge represent the fear from Unicorns, + Pow to Horn attack, Magical etc...

Just a thought :)
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Dave-SWA

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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2015, 11:41:57 PM »
Catching up on some comments.  

About Mr Torrg's proposal on softening the Royal Guard Unicorn Cavalry.

I cannot get behind these ideas.  This is "the cavalry faction", and their best cavalry unit should be (at least debatably) the very best cavalry unit in the game.  Undead Death Knights are 516.  Dark Elf Dusk Lancers cost 444.  I want a super-cavalry unit in this top tier range.

I am thinking about having base attack dice at (8) and then having (-3) or (-4) for the javelin attack.


Marcus on this unit:
Quote
Aside from that, Heavy Cavalry/Knight units don't have javelins.  Take a look at every Javelin tossing Cavalry unit in the game and you'll notice that none of them are Heavy types.  Centaurs are almost an exception but they are more of a tweener unit in that regard.  Now take a look at any Knight type unit (including Greek Companion Cavalry).  None of them have Javelins.  It's a bit much to be tossing javelins while wearing that heavy armor as well as carrying those big, unwieldy lances.  

Yeah, I really see the Javelins as a way to distinguish them from Undead Death Knights and Dark Elf Dusk Lancers.  This is a javelin-heavy faction by design.  I'm not sure (8)/6/6 is enough.  This unit needs to be a serious threat of blowing up a decent unit in one attack round, even more than Death Knights and Dusk Lancers.


Kevin's comments about the Animal Stampede:
Quote
I'm tempted to not give a price and just say to scrap it for another unit or heavily modify its stats.  This thing as written is incredibly swingy, with a charge that will really maim most cavalry units.  After that, its attack drops to a truly anemic (2) 5/5 with no cards--cut that in half once it goes into the yellow.

The fact that it gets no cards means most medium+ infantry units will pitch a good blue card and survive the hit reasonably OK.

If someone pointed a gun at my head and ordered me to price it, I'd probably say 235 points, using the patented pull-a-number-out-of-the-air method.  But seriously...ick.

I thought you liked the concept of this unit when we discussed it at Dexcon last year?  

Anyway, it is an interesting observation that this unit will maim other cavalry units.  This is not my intent.  There are a lot of things about the faction as written that seem to be an incentive to the other player to not bring cavalry (Numidian-clone unit, command cards that negatively affect your cavalry, etc).  I am wary of adding more incentive for all foes to Stand and Shoot.  Maybe.  I kind-of see this unit as the unit to slam into my enemy's spear unit when he does choose to stand and shoot.  And, I think this is a great unit to slam into lesser units like Peasant Mobs and Slave Warriors, given the chance.

Let's see how some playtesting goes.  

About the 'inevitability' of playing a blue card on this attack...
Well, you're fighting the Amazons, so they will be across the field and attacking you in 2 turns, or probably 3 turns max unless you're doing crazy maneuvers or there is wacky terrain (if the terrain is cavalry-unfriendly, like the bridge over the river, then I'm probably bringing a lot less Cav).  How many cards will you draw?  How many other places on the line will you want to play one of your precious few blue cards?  That's why we play the game; I would not change the design of this unit because "obviously I will play a blue card when this unit impacts".  

Kevin, you say you might heavily modify its stats.  While I'm not totally committed to keeping this unit if we can't get a stat profile that works, I would like to keep the unit if we can.  I really like the idea of this nomadic culture using a stampede as a weapon, just like the cowboys do in Western movies.

How would you build such a unit?  I would love to hear other ideas.

Allow card play on this unit?  Allow only Red card play on this unit?  I don't know if I like the feel of playing cards on an Animal Stampede - seems cheesy.  But would that make the concept more functional?


About the game-balance of the Pegasus Leap command card.
Kevin said last year this one card is way out of balance.  Marcus says here we really have to be careful about balance.

If that's the case, then maybe we need to ditch the flying rules entirely?

Here's how I see this card being well within balance...

You spend 1 CA to draw it, and then another CA to play it.  That, nominally, is the equivalent of 50 army build points.

What do you get for 50 points?
The ability to fly, with limitations, for _one turn of movement_.
And you cannot play this card on 40% of the units in the faction (as it is only playable on Amazon Cav units).

Exercise in comparison:
Take a totally-average (5)/5/5, 2/2, 12 courage, no missiles, 3.5 move, 4G/3Y/3R hit box, unit.  That's right about 200 points.
OK, what if you now give this totally average unit the ability to move 5" and fly at 10.5".  What does that do to the cost?
300 maybe?

If this unit pays 100 points to be able to fly all game, then is it so unreasonable to say there is one card in the 30-card deck that allows one unit to fly for one turn for the equivalent of 50 points?

Kevin is saying a cavalry-heavy faction will be very hard to win with.  Yes, I see that.  That's why they need a few cards that give them an ability to put the enemy off balance, like leaping a cavalry unit over their line into their rear, and force the enemy to respond to that, or get pinched in the back next turn.  

The cavalry faction is by definition the movement and maneuver faction.  They should have a chance to capitalize on exceptional/magical movement and maneuver if they get lucky enough to draw the one card out of 30.


Marcus on the Horse Whisperer card:
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You may be on to something here.  The second option is just soooo nasty in the right situation.  IMO it feels a bit strong so I'd change the +/- 2 Movement class options to +/- 1 Movement class.  Since the card is so Cavalry dependent, I'd probably change the third option to either "discard this card to draw another card" or "check the ability box on one of your units".

I'm trying to stay within the theme, and I like how the theme inspires some of these cards.  I think +1/-1 Move Class is not enough.  But you have me thinking about other changes.
I'm now thinking these options instead:
A friendly unit with the Cavalry keyword gets +2 Movement Class this turn.
OR
An enemy unit with the Cavalry keyword gets No movement this turn.
OR
An enemy unit with the Cavalry keyword gets -2 attack dice and -2 Courage this turn.

I don't know why we need an option to draw another card.  I have no problem with powerful cards being near-useless if you don't have a good play for them right now.


Marcus on the new Porcupine unit:
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The Porcupine comes in at 223 points if both the engaged and ranged attacks are (3) 5/5.  Is that where you want it to be?

Yes, this is exactly my intention.  Thanks for running this.

Is the 223 cost for the 3/3 defensive profile, or the 2/4 def profile?

I am interested in what the community thinks.  If the concept of the unit is heavy armor, tightly packed together behind extra-large tower shields in a shield wall formation, with spears poking out from in between the shields, do you see this more as a 3/3 defense or a 2/4 defense?  Your input please.

OK, it's past bedtime.  More soon.  Thank you for the input so far.  Please keep it coming.



« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 12:11:57 AM by Dave-SWA »
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Re: Amazons - Reborn!
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2015, 11:53:42 PM »
Oops, I forgot, one last thing for the night.  I thought of a new command card today.

The Power of Love
Green
Card count = 1
Play during Command & Control Phase.  All Male Amazon units get (+2)/+1/+1 this round.  This counts as playing a Red attack card.

This requires a change to the Rowdy Gang description to instead say "'The Power of Love' is the only Amazon command card playable upon this unit."

I have no problem with this being a dead card if you do not have any of the two units (Rowdy Gang-Standard or Suitors-Elite) of this type.  You can always hold it in case you get a Roll with the Blow or a Follow Through.  This is a powerful card, and I have no problem with it having equally onerous restrictions.

Maybe (+2)/+1/+1 is not enough?

« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 11:56:28 PM by Dave-SWA »
Schenectady Wargamers Association
An Adventure Gaming club serving the Capital District of upstate New York for over 40 years.
Council of Five Nations (Oct 5-7, 2018)
www.swa-gaming.org