Author Topic: Vikings of Midgard  (Read 7424 times)

BubblePig

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2015, 11:01:32 PM »
Command Card names spitballing
Bragi's Favor  Play during a courage phase, after you fail a Courage check.  You may lower the result of the roll by 2.  If you have the Jotunkin box marked, you may lower the result by 3 instead.

Freyja's Favor  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.    Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional D:+0/+1 this attack.

Thor's Favor Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.   Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

Tyr's Favor Play during an attack before you roll to hit. Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 10:07:27 PM by BubblePig »
 

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2015, 02:53:24 PM »
Not a bad set of ideas Ron.  I'm thinking that we should change "favor" to something else like "aid" or "gift" and have each one be different.  And I think the courage card should be named after Heimdal because that dude was a badass.  So what do you think of these?

Heimdal's Esteem

Freyja's Blessing

Thor's Regard

Tyr's Aid

"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
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BubblePig

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2015, 03:15:01 PM »
Yeah, I was trying to think of something catcher than Favor

After reading Corey's comment about a unit starting to look like umenzi berserkers, it occurred to me that the word "berserkers" comes from viking warriors going into battle in a dervish-like trance and wearing bearskins instead of armor or bare-chested and shapeshifting into bears or wolves. It seems a shame that there is no unit of these. Also there seems to be a connection between berserkers and "Sons of Odin" http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 03:26:01 PM by BubblePig »
 

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2015, 03:35:24 PM »
I'm on and off about including a Berserker type unit.  I was jokingly thinking of calling the Shield-Biters.  Read enough of the Icelandic Sagas and it would seem that everybody had an uncle, cousin, or brother that was a Shield-Biter ;D  The Einherjar sort of fill that roll in a game play sense.  I see them as having a (*) 5/6 offensive stat line, which I already have in the Huscarls.  And it would be easy to create something that is almost the spitting image of Umenzi Berserkers.  My question to you (or anybody else reading this) is do you think they would have a place in the faction and what would their stats look like?

The Sons of Odin are a fantastical creation that represents a group of divinely inspired warrior-priests.  While brave in battle, I don't envision them as being completely bonkers.

And BTW - if you watch History Channel's Vikings, Rollo is a total Berserker.
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BubblePig

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2015, 04:09:31 PM »
I think these are my best pairings considering that regard is a synonym for look at and Heimdall is the allseeing one

Heimdall regard
Freyja valor
Thor might
Tyr honor or prowess
Loki guile




On the subject of berserkers I just thought that given their reputation for shapeshifting, they sort of bridge the gap between fantasy and history themes. Going into battle half naked but being immune to iron gives you license for just about any defense stat you want. I would put their offensive power at 6 or even 7. I know I remember reading somewhere that they had the strength of trolls. The part about them not being able to tell friend from foe is problematic, but maybe restricting command cards and jotunkin boxes would be close enough.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 06:18:53 PM by BubblePig »
 

BubblePig

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2015, 04:28:17 PM »
I also seem to remember reading somewhere that berserkers fought in small bands of a dozen or so, so maybe 3 or 4 attack dice. As for how they fit into the faction, I don't see it working unless they are cheap enough to use as glass cannons, sort of like crazed goblins with better attack stats. I suppose the risk is that they would be preferred over fyrd spears the same way battlesquads are over cygnets or that the faction would be overloaded with elite units. I dunno maybe getting both the function and flavor right at the same time is not going to happen.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 04:48:03 PM by BubblePig »
 

Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2015, 01:57:21 PM »
A few points.  On the Einherjar, the 5/5 statline doesn't feel at all right to me.  I like them at (5)6/5 1/2.

The issue I have with that statline is it conflicts with the Shield Maidens.  They'll have the same damage output, trading D:3/2 for being Fearless.  My instinct says that I'll take the Fearless over the D:3/2.  I think it's a better idea to have the two units each with a distinctive role.


Quote
The Giant - this guy is really good.  I might think about bumping him to a 2/4 just to raise his price, and/or moving him to a 5 move so at least he isn't filling the role of fast cav in a pinch.  Fast moving guys that really thump tend to wind up undervalued, because they can blow up their flank and start pac manning the line, at least a slower mover has some drawback (it hasn't come up with this guy yet, but with the other Giant, a 5 sidestep is really, really nasty - it can become a borderline teleport). 

I have less of a concern for the Giant because it is 500pts. 


I'm on and off about including a Berserker type unit.  I was jokingly thinking of calling the Shield-Biters.  Read enough of the Icelandic Sagas and it would seem that everybody had an uncle, cousin, or brother that was a Shield-Biter ;D  The Einherjar sort of fill that roll in a game play sense.  I see them as having a (*) 5/6 offensive stat line, which I already have in the Huscarls.  And it would be easy to create something that is almost the spitting image of Umenzi Berserkers.  My question to you (or anybody else reading this) is do you think they would have a place in the faction and what would their stats look like?

The way that I look at it is that any unit that's Impulsive is basically a "berzerker" unit, all hepped up and eager to get into combat.

I think adding another Pow 6 unit into the faction is just going to make some unit become stay-in-the-box (either this unit or some other unit that this would supplant as "the unit you take when you want Pow 6").  This is the issue you're going to run into when you have infantry heavy armor:  you're quickly going to run out of permutations.  You have a Pow unit, you have a skill unit, you have a skill+pow unit, you have a fast infantry.  If the Einherjar become any of those, then I think you'll have a problem.

What about extra dice?  Maybe the Einherjar fight with a sword + hand axe instead of sword & shield:

Einherjar - Standard - 231pts
O:(7)5/5  D:1/2  R:-  Cge:-  M: 3.5"  5G/2Y/5R
(Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier.  Passes all Courage checks

If you want Skill 6, the unit costs 270pts, but I still say that I can easily justify Skill 5.  Nothing says that the dead have to be skilled (in fact, that they are dead would sort of imply otherwise).  And once dead, they don't really have an incentive to actually get better at fighting.  Just gonna wake up the next morning anyway.  A bad day for an Einherjar would be mortally wounded but taking a long time to die.




Not a bad set of ideas Ron.  I'm thinking that we should change "favor" to something else like "aid" or "gift" and have each one be different.  And I think the courage card should be named after Heimdal because that dude was a badass.  So what do you think of these?

Heimdal's Esteem

Freyja's Blessing

Thor's Regard

Tyr's Aid

Ugh.  Sorry, I guess this is a personal preference for which I am outvoted, but man those names feel cartoony.  I don't know why, but naming the cards after Norse gods makes them sound like home brewed Cleric spells from someone's D&D game.

Edit:  I figured it out!  It's Order of the Stick.  Those names sound like something that would come out of Order of the Stick.  That's why they sound cartoonish and slapstick.  Aww, man, now that I realized it I'm never gonna be able to play those cards without pronouncing them with Durkon's accent!


I also seem to remember reading somewhere that berserkers fought in small bands of a dozen or so, so maybe 3 or 4 attack dice. As for how they fit into the faction, I don't see it working unless they are cheap enough to use as glass cannons, sort of like crazed goblins with better attack stats. I suppose the risk is that they would be preferred over fyrd spears the same way battlesquads are over cygnets or that the faction would be overloaded with elite units. I dunno maybe getting both the function and flavor right at the same time is not going to happen.

Actually this is the sort of thing that could be captured in the artwork.  The way that I see it, attacks don't scale linearly with men.  Compare Battle Squads & phalanxes, or how Knights can be so few but actually put out a lot of dice.  I think that you could easily say that if a Hawkshold unit of 28(?) guys on the card = 5 dice, that Midgard guys have a higher "attack die output to model" ratio.  There's already a precedent for this:  High Elves have fewer guys on that card than is traditional.  You could simply adapt that ratio to capture the feeling of a warband.

BubblePig

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2015, 04:13:12 PM »

Not a bad set of ideas Ron.  I'm thinking that we should change "favor" to something else like "aid" or "gift" and have each one be different.  And I think the courage card should be named after Heimdal because that dude was a badass.  So what do you think of these?

Heimdal's Esteem

Freyja's Blessing

Thor's Regard

Tyr's Aid

Ugh.  Sorry, I guess this is a personal preference for which I am outvoted, but man those names feel cartoony.  I don't know why, but naming the cards after Norse gods makes them sound like home brewed Cleric spells from someone's D&D game.
Well they could use some tweaking, but I think you might be slightly overestimating the strength of the relationship between the words and the concepts you associate with them. Anyhow, here are some more candidates:
Sound the Horns
Valor, Our Shield (OK I am stuck on Valor, so sue me.)
Ymir's Legacy
Rune of Tyr (I wanted to stay away from runes, especially since IIRC the "Tiwaz Rune" is on the art for one of the dwarven rune cards, but you pushed me into it, Corey, congrats.  :P)
    Winning-runes learn,
    if thou longest to win,
    And the runes on thy sword-hilt write;
    Some on the furrow,
    and some on the flat,
    And twice shalt thou call on Tyr.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 04:32:32 PM by BubblePig »
 

Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2015, 05:51:13 PM »
Quote
Rune of Tyr (I wanted to stay away from runes, especially since IIRC the "Tiwaz Rune" is on the art for one of the dwarven rune cards, but you pushed me into it, Corey, congrats.   :P)

I did say I was apparently in the minority on the names.   ;)

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2015, 12:01:53 PM »
What about extra dice?  Maybe the Einherjar fight with a sword + hand axe instead of sword & shield:

Einherjar - Standard - 231pts
O:(7)5/5  D:1/2  R:-  Cge:-  M: 3.5"  5G/2Y/5R
(Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier.  Passes all Courage checks

If you want Skill 6, the unit costs 270pts, but I still say that I can easily justify Skill 5.  Nothing says that the dead have to be skilled (in fact, that they are dead would sort of imply otherwise).  And once dead, they don't really have an incentive to actually get better at fighting.  Just gonna wake up the next morning anyway.  A bad day for an Einherjar would be mortally wounded but taking a long time to die.
You know what's funny?  This is actually really close to what I think a Berserker unit would look like in this faction.  This is certainly a decent candidate for Einherjar stats.  I wonder if it would be fitting to make them fearsome.  You know... ghosts descending from the skies to do battle and all that fine stuff...

Ugh.  Sorry, I guess this is a personal preference for which I am outvoted, but man those names feel cartoony.  I don't know why, but naming the cards after Norse gods makes them sound like home brewed Cleric spells from someone's D&D game.
The card names are not that urgent of a thing at this point in the game.  We could call them Card A, Card B, Card C, Card D and Card E for all I care right now as long as we can determine that the cards themselves are fine.  Keep the suggestions coming and this aspect of the faction will shake itself out in time.  I do think Shield Wall may stick, though.
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
-Rush, Natural Science

Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2015, 12:29:54 PM »
What about extra dice?  Maybe the Einherjar fight with a sword + hand axe instead of sword & shield:

Einherjar - Standard - 231pts
O:(7)5/5  D:1/2  R:-  Cge:-  M: 3.5"  5G/2Y/5R
(Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier.  Passes all Courage checks

If you want Skill 6, the unit costs 270pts, but I still say that I can easily justify Skill 5.  Nothing says that the dead have to be skilled (in fact, that they are dead would sort of imply otherwise).  And once dead, they don't really have an incentive to actually get better at fighting.  Just gonna wake up the next morning anyway.  A bad day for an Einherjar would be mortally wounded but taking a long time to die.
You know what's funny?  This is actually really close to what I think a Berserker unit would look like in this faction.  This is certainly a decent candidate for Einherjar stats.  I wonder if it would be fitting to make them fearsome.  You know... ghosts descending from the skies to do battle and all that fine stuff...

If zombies aren't Fearsome, I don't see how spirits are Fearsome.  Admittedly, there never has been a good template for when something is fearsome. 

I sort of back-construct it as something that provokes an atavistic response:  a larger-than-you predator or some psychic effect that evokes nightmare where you're running from that-unseen-thing.  The former is why Large guys are Fearsome and the latter is how I justify Dark Elves being Fearsome.  Their armor includes some gestalt magic that taps into your fear response.  It's also how I justified the Warriors in the Mist being Terrifying, as they have a psychic scream a la the Shadows from Babylon 5.

If you make them fearsome, then I think that should be kind of what the unit is about.  If its just a bunch of guys, I don't think so. (note the Asgard myth doesn't say they're incorporeal spirits, but rather warriors reborn whole and just missing a pulse)

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2015, 02:40:15 PM »
If zombies aren't Fearsome, I don't see how spirits are Fearsome. 
Good point.  I was just spitballing anyways.

Admittedly, there never has been a good template for when something is fearsome. 
Frankly, you could make an argument that the entire Undead faction could be fearsome.  Who wouldn't crap their drawers when they are about to be ridden down by Skeleton Cavalry?  There's quite a few units that I thought should have been fearsome.  Like every Knight unit in the game.  Bear Packs.  Tyrants - "7 foot tall 300 pound reptilian warriors?  I'll pass!".

But I digress.
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
-Rush, Natural Science

gull2112

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2015, 07:55:10 PM »
Seeing that fearsome is really only an annoyance (as opposed to routing if you failed!), I wouldn't have a problem if the whole faction were fearsome. It would certainly make it easier to remember to test for it when charged!
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gornhorror

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2015, 01:07:46 PM »
Please don't make line units fearsome.  Leave that for large, colossal, monster units etc.   This is one of the reasons why the Dark Elves ended up being broken.
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RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2015, 09:43:27 AM »
No worries there, I was only tossing out the idea of making the Einherjar Fearsome and they are a Standard unit.  I've already moved on from it.
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
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