Author Topic: Vikings of Midgard  (Read 8949 times)

BubblePig

  • Guest
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2015, 12:35:15 PM »
If you are going for cheesiness with polar bear cav, why not go all in and call them Warbears like the unit from the Titan boardgame?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 01:07:29 PM by BubblePig »

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2015, 01:01:51 PM »
YES!!!

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2015, 03:07:43 PM »
I posted up a session report of the game Scott and I played last night.  We played using some revised command cards & checkbox ability that Marcus gave us:

Quote
Jotunkin:  Spend a Command Action to mark the Jotunkin box on the unit.  You may erase the box during the Movement & Command Phase to give the unit (+2)+0/+0, D:-1/-0, and +1 Cge this turn.

Shield Wall: Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Your units get  D:+1/+0 this turn.   Engaged attacks against units with a marked [Jotunkin] box suffer O:(-1)-0/-0 this turn. You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

Call of Valhalla:  Play during a courage phase, before you take any courage checks.  Up to 3 of your units gets +2 Courage this turn.  If any of these units has the Jotunkin box checked, it gets an additional +1 Courage this turn.

Freya’s Haven:  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.    If your unit has the Jotunkin box it gets an additiona D:+0/+1

Hail to the Hammer: Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.   If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

Show your Swords: Play during an attack before you roll to hit. Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.


Shield Wall was never drawn so I can't say anything about it.  And Jotunkin was never erased.  Scott marked it several times, but that for the bonuses on Command Cards.  There was one time he would have erased it, but we were in the combat phase and he'd played a Freya's Haven on the unit.  If he hadn't used the Blue card, I would've let him erase it retroactively.


Call of Valhalla did get played once and we both agree its a really lame card.  The cookie for the checkbox is too weak to justify the card being lamers than Uncommon Valor.  We think this card needs to be reviewed.  Of the top of my head, I'm wondering if a weak reroll is about right:  rather than a +1 Cge w/reroll just do a simple reroll with no bonus.  That would put the yellow check success rate (after the reroll) at 93%, which is actually a little higher than Cold Blooded on a Cge 12 unit.


Freya's Haven, Show your Swords, and Heil ( :P) to the Hammer got played a lot, and we really don't like the interaction with the checkbox.  First, there is no decision tension here:  you will never erase the box over using it in conjunction with a command card.  The bonus provided by the command card is just better.

Second, we feel its overpowered.  If you're spending 1 CA to go to (+1)+1/+1 or (+1)+0/+2 that's fine,  but that's not what will happen.  I'll spend 1 CA to get the benefit of Show Your Swords this turn and then next turn I'll play Show your Swords again.  Or I'll play Show your Swords and then Freya's Haven.  Or I'll do both.  You're going to mark the box with the intent to use 2-3 (or more) faction cards on that unit.

Third, we didn't like the "go fish" dynamic that this creates.  Normally, we spend an CAs on command and control then decide whether to allocate the rest between checkboxes or command cards.  Usually it's cards.  

With this interaction, you're going to wait to mark the checkbox till you have the cards, so you end up spending 1 CA at a time.  Normally the dynamic is "Okay, I spend 1 CA here to not get pinched. . .then draw 3 cards."  With this it's "Okay, I spend 1 CA to not get pinched. . .draw 1 card, check see if its a faction-specific. . .draw 1 card, oh I got Heil to the Hammer so now I'll spend that last CA to mark the box."

I'll admit its a personal preference, but it feels wrong to fish for the right cards and only mark the checkbox after you know you have them. There's no decision tension anywhere:  you fish for the faction cards, then you mark the box when you get them, and you drop 2-3 cards on one unit.


We kicked around a couple of ideas, including making the checkbox only be an additional plus/minus 1 die.  While that fixes the power problem, it doesn't fix the decision tension issue:  you go from checking the box after you have the card to not checking the box that much.

One idea we had was return to the concept behind Marcus's original checkbox: that it boosts wounding somehow.  We have the bonus on the Command Cards be the same (+1 Pow or +1 Toughness), but you have to erase the checkbox box.  Then we have the checkbox average to about that value (i.e. +1 Pow) but you have to erase it before you roll to wound, so you are unsure of the benefit.  

Scott suggested rerolls, specifically you can erase the box to reroll all 6s to wound.  I suggested rerolling up to 2 failed to-wound rolls.  I also suggested maybe that after you roll to wound, you lower the result of one to-wound die by 1.  So it'd be something like:

Jotunkin:  play 1 CA to mark the box.  You may erase the box after you roll to wound.  You may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll.  


And a card like Heil to the Hammer would read like:

Hail to the Hammer: Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  You may erase the Jotunkin box before rolling to hit to get an additional O:(+0)+0/+1 this attack.


The idea here is that you have to make a decision:  do I erase the box pre-hit roll to get a sure thing?  Or do I wait to erase it for the reroll?  The reroll gives me a bigger potential but the Pow bonus is more a sure thing.


For Freya's Haven you'd have less of a dynamic, because its a Blue card.  Still, people would have to decide whether to erase the box then or save it for the attack.

The one I don't see working out is Shield Wall.  Since its played in the M&C phase, its too easy for me to get the bonus of the marked box.  Especially on your enemy's turn:  you get the bonus while he attacks and then you erase it when you make your attacks second.  You could make it an "erase to get the bonus" but -1 die is way too weak to be worth it.  Honestly, I suggest ditching the cookie here.  It's a good card as is, and I don't think every card needs to have a checkbox cookie to capture the theme.



When it comes to units, Scott only took 4 and the Bear Cavalry never saw combat.  So I can't say much about them.  One thing I can say is that Impulsive and Large can make them hard to maneuver (i.e. forests).


The Midgard Warriors worked well.  Scott & I debated the impact hit vs giving them the cavalry +1 Pow on the charge and he's come around to the impact hit.  His concern was that they'd feel too much like phalanxes, but he didn't get that feeling in the game.  Part of that was because phalanxes are actually pretty difficult to maneuver, whereas these guys could go into terrain and whatnot.  I also liked the feel of the Cge 13 and the 4/2/4 hit boxes.  Its the right mix of brave vikings who are definitely more warrior than soldier.


The Shield Maidens were a solid unit.  They're not spectacular but you'll see them quite a bit because its an affordable way to get Skill 6 on the table.  Its interesting because they'll likely show up in fairly high numbers for some matchups.  I don't think 2-3 in a game is crazy.


The Einherjar were interesting.  They're basically just fearless, auto-close Warriors with a few more boxes.  Being able to play cards on them isn't something you normally see on fearless, auto-close units.  The one thing, and this is more of a head scratcher than an actual complaint, is that Scott was sort of taken aback by their statline at first.  These are the soldiers of Valhalla, rewarded with eternals life for valor and skill. . . . and they're O:(5)5/5  D:2/2.  Pretty "m'eh" stats for the heroes of Midgard.

The problem is that they can't really be a (5)6/6 unit because those are Sons of Odin.  And they can't really be a O:(5)6/5 D:3/2 unit because that's the Shield Maidens's statline.  

One thought we had, and this is just spitballing by both of us, was to give the Einherjar the stats of the Shield Maidens (representing that they are skilled with the eternal fighting they've done) and make the Shield Maidens into a Battle Squad type unit.  Something like:

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
303 points

Shield Maidens (Elite) (3) 5/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
153 Points


These are just ideas, mind you.  Not pushing for this change, just tossing ideas out there.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:35:45 PM by Hannibal »

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3816
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2015, 04:10:29 PM »
Call of Valhalla did get played once and we both agree its a really lame card.  The cookie for the checkbox is too weak to justify the card being lamers than Uncommon Valor.  We think this card needs to be reviewed.  Of the top of my head, I'm wondering if a weak reroll is about right:  rather than a +1 Cge w/reroll just do a simple reroll with no bonus.  That would put the yellow check success rate (after the reroll) at 93%, which is actually a little higher than Cold Blooded on a Cge 12 unit.
I agree that the card is weak.  I wanted to err on the side of caution on the low end.  A flat re-roll is reasonable, though pretty blah on the flavor.  I'm wondering if there would be a small cookie that could be tossed in there other than giving the unit a +1 courage to make it a Cold Blooded clone.  Perhaps a straight-up re-roll and the unit gets a +2 bonus on a certain condition like it's being pinched?

Freya's Haven, Show your Swords, and Heil ( :P) to the Hammer got played a lot, and we really don't like the interaction with the checkbox.  First, there is no decision tension here:  you will never erase the box over using it in conjunction with a command card.  The bonus provided by the command card is just better.

Second, we feel its overpowered.  If you're spending 1 CA to go to (+1)+1/+1 or (+1)+0/+2 that's fine,  but that's not what will happen.  I'll spend 1 CA to get the benefit of Show Your Swords this turn and then next turn I'll play Show your Swords again.  Or I'll play Show your Swords and then Freya's Haven.  Or I'll do both.  You're going to mark the box with the intent to use 2-3 (or more) faction cards on that unit.

Third, we didn't like the "go fish" dynamic that this creates.  Normally, we spend an CAs on command and control then decide whether to allocate the rest between checkboxes or command cards.  Usually it's cards.  

With this interaction, you're going to wait to mark the checkbox till you have the cards, so you end up spending 1 CA at a time.  Normally the dynamic is "Okay, I spend 1 CA here to not get pinched. . .then draw 3 cards."  With this it's "Okay, I spend 1 CA to not get pinched. . .draw 1 card, check see if its a faction-specific. . .draw 1 card, oh I got Heil to the Hammer so now I'll spend that last CA to mark the box."

I'll admit its a personal preference, but it feels wrong to fish for the right cards and only mark the checkbox after you know you have them. There's no decision tension anywhere:  you fish for the faction cards, then you mark the box when you get them, and you drop 2-3 cards on one unit.
I see where you are coming from here.  I sort of liked the idea of a go fish dynamic, but it it's blazingly obvious that you'll always do this instead of using the check box for the ability itself then it's no good.  I'm thinking this is more s symptom of the check box ability itself not being very useful.

Jotunkin:  play 1 CA to mark the box.  You may erase the box after you roll to wound.  You may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll.  
This sounds an awful lot like Wuxing's Reliable

The one I don't see working out is Shield Wall.  Since its played in the M&C phase, its too easy for me to get the bonus of the marked box.  Especially on your enemy's turn:  you get the bonus while he attacks and then you erase it when you make your attacks second.  You could make it an "erase to get the bonus" but -1 die is way too weak to be worth it.  Honestly, I suggest ditching the cookie here.  It's a good card as is, and I don't think every card needs to have a checkbox cookie to capture the theme.
Dumping the ability box interaction is OK.  Even then it's a pretty strong card IMO.  I wonder if there should be an additional price you need to pay to play it like pitching a card or whatever.

The Midgard Warriors worked well.  Scott & I debated the impact hit vs giving them the cavalry +1 Pow on the charge and he's come around to the impact hit.  His concern was that they'd feel too much like phalanxes, but he didn't get that feeling in the game.  Part of that was because phalanxes are actually pretty difficult to maneuver, whereas these guys could go into terrain and whatnot.  I also liked the feel of the Cge 13 and the 4/2/4 hit boxes.  Its the right mix of brave vikings who are definitely more warrior than soldier.
Cool!  In my mind one of the most important things is to make the meat and potatoes units preform properly and feel right while doing so.

The Shield Maidens were a solid unit.  They're not spectacular but you'll see them quite a bit because its an affordable way to get Skill 6 on the table.  Its interesting because they'll likely show up in fairly high numbers for some matchups.  I don't think 2-3 in a game is crazy....

...Shield Maidens (Elite) (3) 5/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
153 Points
I'd hate to see them become another Battle Squad.  I envisioned them being a slight novelty line unit that could actually deal some damage but still hang in there a bit.  I'm not saying that I'll blindly stick to what I've currently got, but a 153 standard BS wanna be strikes me as something players are going to do their best to semi-spam on many occasions.

The Einherjar were interesting.  They're basically just fearless, auto-close Warriors with a few more boxes.  Being able to play cards on them isn't something you normally see on fearless, auto-close units.  The one thing, and this is more of a head scratcher than an actual complaint, is that Scott was sort of taken aback by their statline at first.  These are the soldiers of Valhalla, rewarded with eternals life for valor and skill. . . . and they're O:(5)5/5  D:2/2.  Pretty "m'eh" stats for the heroes of Midgard.

The problem is that they can't really be a (5)6/6 unit because those are Sons of Odin.  And they can't really be a O:(5)6/5 D:3/2 unit because that's the Shield Maidens's statline.  

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
303 points
I think there are already plenty of expensive units in the faction and I'm not happy with the idea of creating another one.  That said, I like the idea of them being more than a roving meat wall like they currently are.  What do you think of taking your idea and thinning out the hit boxes, reflecting a ghostly element to the unit?  So you'll get:

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
272 points

And if you remove the Jotunkin box they go down to 259 points, which is a nice place to be.  They become an offensive minded unit which is much better for a unit on auto-close than the tank-like unit we had that was also on auto-close.  Now if we take this path with the Einherjar the Shield Maidens will certainly need to be changed somehow because now these two units would be stepping on each others toes.

To me, the biggest issue is getting the check box ability right and that has been my biggest struggle with this faction so far.  I'm sure we'll bounce a few more ideas around in the near future.

Thanks for your input, it's a big help!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 04:12:44 PM by RushAss »
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
-Rush, Natural Science

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 01:00:46 PM »
Call of Valhalla did get played once and we both agree its a really lame card.  The cookie for the checkbox is too weak to justify the card being lamers than Uncommon Valor.  We think this card needs to be reviewed.  Of the top of my head, I'm wondering if a weak reroll is about right:  rather than a +1 Cge w/reroll just do a simple reroll with no bonus.  That would put the yellow check success rate (after the reroll) at 93%, which is actually a little higher than Cold Blooded on a Cge 12 unit.
I agree that the card is weak.  I wanted to err on the side of caution on the low end.  A flat re-roll is reasonable, though pretty blah on the flavor.  I'm wondering if there would be a small cookie that could be tossed in there other than giving the unit a +1 courage to make it a Cold Blooded clone.  Perhaps a straight-up re-roll and the unit gets a +2 bonus on a certain condition like it's being pinched?

That's basically We Few from the Alexander faction.  A couple of other ideas:

Up-gunned Spoils:  "play after you fail a courage check.  Lower the roll by 3."  A post-facto +3 to your roll.  And a +3 is basically the same effect as a reroll w/+1 Cge.  I have strong concerns that this would be too good on a Cge 13 faction, but we could see.  Maybe make it an "lower by 2, but if have the checkbox marked lower by 3."

Ignore Yellow/Red:  "Play after you fail a Cge check.  Reroll the check w/+1 if in the Yellow or +2 if in the red."  So in the Yellow its as good as Cold Blooded.  In the Red it's better, but if you fail a pinch check when you're in the Green it's worse.


Quote
Freya's Haven, Show your Swords, and Heil ( :P) to the Hammer got played a lot, and we really don't like the interaction with the checkbox.  First, there is no decision tension here:  you will never erase the box over using it in conjunction with a command card.  The bonus provided by the command card is just better.

Second, we feel its overpowered.  If you're spending 1 CA to go to (+1)+1/+1 or (+1)+0/+2 that's fine,  but that's not what will happen.  I'll spend 1 CA to get the benefit of Show Your Swords this turn and then next turn I'll play Show your Swords again.  Or I'll play Show your Swords and then Freya's Haven.  Or I'll do both.  You're going to mark the box with the intent to use 2-3 (or more) faction cards on that unit.

Third, we didn't like the "go fish" dynamic that this creates.  Normally, we spend an CAs on command and control then decide whether to allocate the rest between checkboxes or command cards.  Usually it's cards. 

With this interaction, you're going to wait to mark the checkbox till you have the cards, so you end up spending 1 CA at a time.  Normally the dynamic is "Okay, I spend 1 CA here to not get pinched. . .then draw 3 cards."  With this it's "Okay, I spend 1 CA to not get pinched. . .draw 1 card, check see if its a faction-specific. . .draw 1 card, oh I got Heil to the Hammer so now I'll spend that last CA to mark the box."

I'll admit its a personal preference, but it feels wrong to fish for the right cards and only mark the checkbox after you know you have them. There's no decision tension anywhere:  you fish for the faction cards, then you mark the box when you get them, and you drop 2-3 cards on one unit.
I see where you are coming from here.  I sort of liked the idea of a go fish dynamic, but it it's blazingly obvious that you'll always do this instead of using the check box for the ability itself then it's no good.  I'm thinking this is more s symptom of the check box ability itself not being very useful.

I disagree.  If you make the checkbox give a +1 stat (Pow/Toughness) cookie on faction cards, and you don't have to erase the checkbox, then making the checkbox better doesn't solve the problem.  In fact it makes it worse, because with a weak checkbox it was already too good.  With a strong checkbox, you're rewarding people even more to stack multiple cards on the one unit.  And you're not introducing any design tension.  All you're doing is making it a better decision to "mark the box, play 2-3 cards, and then erase the box."

I think this is a design issue that you need to resolve before you can work out the checkbox.  I think you need to go one of two ways:

1)  If you want the checkbox to provide a bonus but not be erased when faction command cards are played, then the bonus has to be small.  It has to be something that over time will equal the value of erasing it.  For example, if erasing the checkbox is equal to +1 stat (Pow/Toughness), then the cookie for having it marked when you play the faction cards is +1 die (or -1 die) extra.  Over time, as you play multiple command cards on the unit you can get the same or better return as erasing the checkbox.  The issue that I have with that one is the decision will often be relatively easy:  play 2-3 cards and then erase the checkbox.  But the decision at that point becomes more about "should I mark the box early and maximize the benefit (a la Rune of Uruz) or is it more valuable to draw the card early on."  Like the Rune, I think the decision will be fairly easy:  good units get the checkbox and non-good units don't.

2)  If the cookie for playing the card with a marked checkbox is equally powerful as erasing the checkbox, then you should have to erase it when you get the cookie.  If you want decision tension then you'll have to either have the two do something different or do the same thing at different times.

An example of the former is erase the card to get +3 Cge or erase it when play a faction command card for +1 stat.  (This is just a hypothetical mind you, not actually suggesting this)  In this case, you'd have to choose whether to do more damage at the potential expense of routing this turn. 

And example of the former is the classic pre-roll vs post-roll bonus.  For example, if you erase it post roll to lower a die by 1 or erase when you play the card to get +1 Pow.  Both give you +.42 dmg (with a (5)5/5 attacking a 2/2), but the checkbox only gets used if you need it, whereas the +1 Pow might not get you anything (i.e. you didn't roll any 4s to wound).  The flip is the checkbox only gets you 1 extra wound, whereas the +1 Pow could get you 2-3 extra wounds (if you roll a bunch of 4s).

So if you choose option 2, then you further need to decide how the checkbox & bonus operate:  do they do different things?  Or are the same thing done in different ways?  Let's call them Option 2a and Option 2b.


Quote
Jotunkin:  play 1 CA to mark the box.  You may erase the box after you roll to wound.  You may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll. 
This sounds an awful lot like Wuxing's Reliable

Yeah, but the Wuxing pay a price in points whereas this would be a price in CAs. 


I went ahead and put up a couple of different ideas, drawing on Option 2b above.  My thought is that if you played the faction card you could erase the box to get +1 stat (Pow or Toughness).  So the idea is that you're working off a baseline of +.42 dmg for getting +1 Pow.

From that I have 3 ideas for the checkbox ability:

A)  Mini-Follow Through:  erase the box after you roll to wound, lower 1 die by by 1.  Counts as a card.

B)  Super-Reliable:  erase the box after you roll to wound to reroll any 5s or 6s.  Counts as a card.

C)  Mini-Fortune Favors the Bold:  erase the box after you roll to wound to reroll up to 2 failed to-wound rolls.  Counts as a card.

Here's what I got at the various Xs & Ys:






As you'd expect, C is better than B.  The only question is: does B provide enough of a bonus (and if it doesn't, that is why C is here).

The other big take-away is that, as a general rule, A is going to be better at "monster killing" whereas B is going to be better at "chump killing."


Quote
The one I don't see working out is Shield Wall.  Since its played in the M&C phase, its too easy for me to get the bonus of the marked box.  Especially on your enemy's turn:  you get the bonus while he attacks and then you erase it when you make your attacks second.  You could make it an "erase to get the bonus" but -1 die is way too weak to be worth it.  Honestly, I suggest ditching the cookie here.  It's a good card as is, and I don't think every card needs to have a checkbox cookie to capture the theme.
Dumping the ability box interaction is OK.  Even then it's a pretty strong card IMO.  I wonder if there should be an additional price you need to pay to play it like pitching a card or whatever.

I don't think so, honestly.  I think this is a fine card on a D:2/2 faction (and that the Umenzi card is a kind of weak one on a D:2/1 faction).  Of course, I could be wrong here, so we can check and see.

Quote
The Einherjar were interesting.  They're basically just fearless, auto-close Warriors with a few more boxes.  Being able to play cards on them isn't something you normally see on fearless, auto-close units.  The one thing, and this is more of a head scratcher than an actual complaint, is that Scott was sort of taken aback by their statline at first.  These are the soldiers of Valhalla, rewarded with eternals life for valor and skill. . . . and they're O:(5)5/5  D:2/2.  Pretty "m'eh" stats for the heroes of Midgard.

The problem is that they can't really be a (5)6/6 unit because those are Sons of Odin.  And they can't really be a O:(5)6/5 D:3/2 unit because that's the Shield Maidens's statline. 

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
303 points
I think there are already plenty of expensive units in the faction and I'm not happy with the idea of creating another one.  That said, I like the idea of them being more than a roving meat wall like they currently are.  What do you think of taking your idea and thinning out the hit boxes, reflecting a ghostly element to the unit?  So you'll get:

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
272 points

And if you remove the Jotunkin box they go down to 259 points, which is a nice place to be.  They become an offensive minded unit which is much better for a unit on auto-close than the tank-like unit we had that was also on auto-close.  Now if we take this path with the Einherjar the Shield Maidens will certainly need to be changed somehow because now these two units would be stepping on each others toes.

I don't think a 303pt Einherjar is that much worse than a 270pt one.  I'd have concerns at 3/2/3 that the Einherjar might be too easy to beat up, frankly.

And then there's still the issue of them being the same unit as the Shield Maidens.  If you went this route with the Einherjar, then you'd have to come up with a new idea for the Shield Maidens.

BubblePig

  • Guest
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 05:49:50 PM »
Another Option
D) Reliable with optional booster:  After you roll to wound you may reroll any 6s or you may erase the box to reroll 5s as well. Counts as a card either way.

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2015, 02:34:50 PM »
Another Option
D) Reliable with optional booster:  After you roll to wound you may reroll any 6s or you may erase the box to reroll 5s as well. Counts as a card either way.

Scott & I saw this right before we played yesterday, and we really liked it.  We thought it was a little weak if it always counted as a command card, so we went with it not counting as a card if you just reroll 6s.  Below is what we playtested, and our thoughts:

Quote
Jotunkin:  Spend 1 CA to mark the Jotunkin box.  While the box is marked you may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll.  If you did not play a Command Card, you can erase the box to also reroll any 5s on the to-wound roll.

This one is interesting, because it did have us discussing & debating whether or not Scott should erase it during the game.  We think there's really something to this ability, because while there's no real tension as to whether or not to erase it to reroll the 5s (because if you roll a bunch of 5s, you should usually do it, unless you need 1s or 2s to wound).  But the tension becomes "do I erase it for 5s now or do I keep it to get the cookie from the command cards?"

By itself, without erasing for the 5s, rerolling 6s is roughly equal to the Rune of Uruz.  It'll get you +.21 damage every turn (vs +.25 for the Rune), which is why we felt comfortable not having the passive ability count as a command card.  Erasing it for the 5s will average to +.42 damage...but you won't erase it when you do an average number of 5s.  You'll do it when you roll three or four 5s and so get maximum value.  That dynamic felt about right to us, at least with the limited number of games we've played.

Quote
Shield Wall: Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Your units get  D:+1/+0 this turn.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

Call of Valhalla:  Play during a courage phase, after you fail a Courage check.  You may lower the result of the roll by 2.  If you have the Jotunkin box marked, you may lower the result by 3 instead.

I think maybe the Call of Valhalla got used once, but I don't think these cards even got drawn. 


Quote
Freya’s Haven:  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.    Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional D:+0/+1 this attack.

Hail to the Hammer: Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.   Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

Show your Swords: Play during an attack before you roll to hit. Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

All three of these cards were used at least once.  The big thing is how does the checkbox giving the bonus feel.  On the surface it seems to me that you'd want to fish for these command cards and then mark the checkbox so you can get the bonus, but the more I more I look at it the more I think that's wrong.  Yeah getting (+1)+1/+1 is scary, but we're talking about only an extra .67 dmg for a whole extra CA.  For Heil to the Hammer, you're talking about +.5 dmg and for Freya's Haven you're getting an extra -.22 dmg, all for a whole extra CA.

Which leads me to think that the best use is like the Rune of Uruz:  put it on early.  Two turns of the mark and then erasing for a card is nasty, but for every CA you use to mark the box you lower the odds of you getting the card.

And the proof is in the pudding.  Scott used the checkbox with the command card several times in our game and it didn't feel too strong to me.  Marcus, I think Ron has hit this one square on the head.


My comments on the units:

Quote
Huscarls (Core) (5) 5/6 1/3 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/3/3 (Call of Valhalla, wave Dasher)

Scott took four of these in our game, with the intent of spamming Pow 6 against Orcs.  I think these guys work just right.  They beat up pretty well on my Orcs, but they didn't feel too good.  But at the cost of going with them over Midgard Warriors meant that he had a really short line.


Quote
Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)   +1 Impact hit (2 total) when Charging.

Two games in a row these guys never really saw action.  They either flanked, pinched, or were flanked.  Still, it perhaps says something that that keeps happening.  These guys clock in at 375pts and so they are really scary.  Anything short of a dedicated 400pt unit is going to have a pretty tough time with them.


Quote
Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1/4 R- C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive.  To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card. 2 Frost Blast boxes.  When unengaged, you may mark off 1 Frost blast box to give Frost Giant a 10.5" LOS ranged attack of (3) 6/6.

These guys worked about as well as you could expect.  A couple tweaks that I'd change, though, is the costs for things.  I'll chat with you privately about it.

BubblePig

  • Guest
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2015, 10:21:49 PM »
I like the decision tension, but the one thing which I wonder is whether or not the ability is just a touch too good if rerolling sixes doesn't count as a command card. I suppose you could bump up the unit price a bit if that were the case.

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2015, 11:56:33 PM »
I like the decision tension, but the one thing which I wonder is whether or not the ability is just a touch too good if rerolling sixes doesn't count as a command card.

Rerolling 6s is weaker than Rune of Uruz, so I don't think that it'll be too good.  I think we're clear there.

BubblePig

  • Guest
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2015, 02:03:11 AM »
Rerolling 6s is weaker than Rune of Uruz.
Not true. When you have 6 dice, like 5 out of the 12 units in this faction, rerolling 6's is on average the same as Uruz. When you have more than 6 dice, like on the charge turn or when certain command cards are played on certain units, rerolling 6's is on average better than Rune of Uruz. Also, that comparison ignores the faction card synergy and the optional booster if you want to reroll 5's, which I would ballpark at maybe half as valuable as rerolling 6's for free. So my seat of the pants calculation would be that rerolling 6's not counting as a command card along with the optional booster would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/2 times as good as Rune of Uruz. Even if you base it off a 5 dice unit that would be 15/12 times as good. I still like the additional decision tension you get by allowing the rerolling of 6's not count as a card, though. Also Uruz is not one of the stronger faction abilities, anyhow.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 02:05:20 AM by BubblePig »

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3816
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2015, 10:57:35 AM »
Noted Ron.  we'll keep an eye on that one.  It's obviously stronger on the units with 6 offensive power, so Huscarls will inherit the scrutiny for the most part.

Faction units, ability, and command cards have been updated in the first post of this discussion.  Hide your women and children.
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
-Rush, Natural Science

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2015, 12:42:38 PM »
Rerolling 6s is weaker than Rune of Uruz.
Not true. When you have 6 dice, like 5 out of the 12 units in this faction, rerolling 6's is on average the same as Uruz. When you have more than 6 dice, like on the charge turn or when certain command cards are played on certain units, rerolling 6's is on average better than Rune of Uruz.

That's true, my bad.  If Midgard Warriors are charging they'll get +.04 dmg over charging Dwarf Axemen.  However, on a non-charging turn the Midgard Warriors will get -.04 dmg vs the Axemen.  So that difference will average out pretty quickly and then the Rune will start giving a better return.  Mind you, we're talking a very minor difference here, so I think its fair to say that although the Rune gives slightly better over time, the two passive abilities are about on par.

Given that the passive Jotunkin ability is about equal to the Rune, I think its fair to say that it shouldn't block a command card.  I certainly doubt I'd ever pass up the chance to play a Strike or Might to get a bonus equal to +1 die.


Quote
Also, that comparison ignores the faction card synergy and the optional booster if you want to reroll 5's, which I would ballpark at maybe half as valuable as rerolling 6's for free. So my seat of the pants calculation would be that rerolling 6's not counting as a command card along with the optional booster would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/2 times as good as Rune of Uruz. Even if you base it off a 5 dice unit that would be 15/12 times as good. I still like the additional decision tension you get by allowing the rerolling of 6's not count as a card, though. Also Uruz is not one of the stronger faction abilities, anyhow.

Everything you say here is true, but I believe we also have to keep the value of the Rune in mind:  it stays on the unit.  To use either of the boosted ability of Jotunkin you erase the box.  To me the way to think about it is that erasing the box isn't "bonus" damage but rather "accelerated" damage.  You're taking an extra 1/2 - 3/4 dmg in one turn rather than that extra damage over three turns.  Now, as a rule, early damage is more valuable than later damage, so you're right that we should keep that in mind that this ability may well be 3/2 the value of the Rune (which I clock at about worth +1 dmg over the course of the game).


Faction units, ability, and command cards have been updated in the first post of this discussion.  Hide your women and children.

You're just saying that because I'm here.   8)

Okay onto the update

Quote
Einherjar (5) 6/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
244 points

Notes: THIS UNIT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

Scott & I kicked this one around and we both feel nearly any combination of stats could easily be justified:

--They could easily be Off Skill 6 & Def Skill 3, representing the best heroes training forever in Valhalla.  This unfortunately makes the Shield Maidens redundant.

--They could be (5)6/5, D:1/2.  They're dead, and if you kill them again they'll just wake up in Valhalla.  Not much incentive to even try to block.  Heck they could even have 6 dice or be Pow 6 as well.

--They could be (5)5/5, D:2/2 (i.e. normal Warriors who have more boxes & are Fearless).  Valhalla is for all who died in battle, not just the best warriors.  Bravery is more important than actual skill.  Having regiments composed only of heroes is more of a Greek thing.

The only combination I can't see is O:(5)5/5 D:3/2.  It simply wouldn't feel right for these guys to be tanky unless they had the matching offensive output.  Honestly, at this point I kind of lean towards making these guys O:(5)5/5, D:2/2.  It'd keep from having to redo the Shield Maidens, plus it wouldn't actually be a statline that is done that much.  If you make these guys high skill, then they're fearless High Elves.  If you make go the D:1/2 route, then they're very close to Umenzi Berzerkers.  There actually isn't a "fearless normal" unit in the game, they're all either chumps or suped-up units.


Quote
Arctic Wolves (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C- 12 M-6"
Hit boxes 2/5/2
O (+2) +0/+0 and D +3/+0 during post-Rout Free Attacks. If Arctic Wolves Rout, they automatically rally at the end of turn. Is unaffected by your command Cards.  To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
180 points

Notes: Bigger, stronger, and smarter than their distant cousins in Ravenwood.
(This unit may get the axe)

I say pull the trigger and put these pups down.  In the two games we've played so far one thing we've discovered is that Midgard has a pretty large toolkit.  Although they slant towards easy access of Pow & Toughness, they have a pretty wide variety of units.  They can pretty easily get Skill 6 on the table and the Sons of Odin will make for a beat-stick of a unit.  They really can fight just about any army.

The one thing they lack is affordable speed.  They do have some 5" movers, but they don't have anything faster than that for less than 400pts, making them relatively immobile.  Combined with their Impulsive, it makes them somewhat susceptible to getting outmaneuvered.  Which is a good thing.  It feels right that the barbarian horde can be beaten by a discipline army that holds the center while the flankers come around.  Factions are defined by their weaknesses as much as their strengths and the Wolves cover an obvious weakness for them that I think we should preserve.


Quote
Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
277 Points

Notes: THIS UNIT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS PENDING EDITS TO THE EINHERJAR.

I like this unit as it is.  The only change is that I think it should move to Standard.  I feel that enough of the women-folk could fight that they could show up in decent numbers.  


Quote
Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
377 points

This is another unit I think you should move to Standard.  Honestly, the cost is so prohibitive that I doubt you'll ever take more than two, which makes this moot in a lot of cases.  But even if you loaded up on Yearlings for your Core and took 3 of them, I don't think that's any more broken than Dusk Lances & Slave Warriors.  Really, making them Standard is for those "Standard = Core" missions where could just plop down 4 of them.

Oooo, just thought of an awesome build: 1 Fyrd Spear, 1 Huscarls, 2 Viking Raiders, and 3 Bear Cavalry.  You've just got to make these guys Standard.  Let people unleash the fury!

Also, Ron is right:  change the name to War Bear Cavalry instead of Polar Bear Cavalry.  War Bears just sounds so much cooler.


Command Cards

Okay this is just a personal opinion, but I really think the names of most of the cards should change.  They read too much like tracks off the album of some 80s thrash metal band.  Like every time I read Show your Swords or even Freya's Haven I can almost hear Rammstein singing.  

"Show....Show your swords..."

I think you should go with more laconic names for the cards.  Something that sounds more like war cries and such.  I some Old Norse mottos/battle cries from their heroic poems that I think may be better.  Here's some suggestions:

Quote
Shield Wall:

This one is fine.


Quote
Call of Valhalla:

What about "From Death, Glory"?


Quote
Freya’s Haven:
"Iron Perishes"?


Quote
Hail to the Hammer:
Show your Swords:

Can't really think of any off the top of my head, but here's a list of random ones:

Vengeance is in Battle
Iron and Blood
From Suffering, Wisdom
Woe and Vengeance
Glory is in Life
Fire and Hate
Doom Arrives
Victory and Death
From Iron, Woe
Wisdom is in Vengeance
Fire and Battle

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3816
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2015, 03:13:22 PM »

Quote
Einherjar (5) 6/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
244 points

Notes: THIS UNIT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

Scott & I kicked this one around and we both feel nearly any combination of stats could easily be justified:

--They could be (5)6/5, D:1/2.  They're dead, and if you kill them again they'll just wake up in Valhalla.  Not much incentive to even try to block.  Heck they could even have 6 dice or be Pow 6 as well.
I sort of like the D: 1/2 option.  That puts them at 208 points at 4/2/4 boxes.  Give them 6 attack dice and they go up to 231 points and frankly I'm OK with either of those.

Another approach would be to make them a D: 3/1 (skilled but ghostly) but again we're stepping on the Shield Maiden's toes.  A (5) 5/5 D: 2/2 unit with lots of boxes gets into tank territory which feels weird since this unit wants to run at the nearest enemy.

Quote
Quote
Arctic Wolves (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C- 12 M-6"

I say pull the trigger and put these pups down.  
I have 13 units and this one is clearly the first in line for the chopping block.  I don't want to give up on them 100% yet, but they're on the clock.

Quote
Quote
Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
377 points

This is another unit I think you should move to Standard...
Also, Ron is right:  change the name to War Bear Cavalry instead of Polar Bear Cavalry.  War Bears just sounds so much cooler.

You're right about them being expensive and still not something you'd use often in most cases.  Like Centaurs and Ancients.  And I can ride with them being called War Bears.

Quote
Command Cards
.....

I'll look these over.  The good news is that a crappy name for a CC will never hurt playtesting :)
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
-Rush, Natural Science

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4559
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2015, 03:55:00 PM »
Quote
I sort of like the D: 1/2 option.  That puts them at 208 points at 4/2/4 boxes.  Give them 6 attack dice and they go up to 231 points and frankly I'm OK with either of those.

I'm having a hard time getting the costs right.  The only way I can get to 231pts is if I give them both "Engage_Only_Good" and "Impulsive."  And they can't have both.

Honestly, a Skill 6 unit for 230pts steps on the Shield Maiden's toes.  Why bother having a Skill 3 unit when you could just have a Fearless unit.  Plus this unit starts to look a lot like Umenzi Berzerkers.

What about O:(6)5/5, D:1/2, 5G/2Y/5R, 223pts?  They're easy to wound but lots of hit boxes. 


Quote
A (5) 5/5 D: 2/2 unit with lots of boxes gets into tank territory which feels weird since this unit wants to run at the nearest enemy.

I actually like this one the best, because its unique.  Its not really tank unit.  It a fearless Warrior unit.  And if I have 20 spare points and 5 core choices, upgrading one of these is almost a no-brainer to me.


Quote
Quote
Command Cards
.....

I'll look these over.  The good news is that a crappy name for a CC will never hurt playtesting

I posted it up to get yours and other people's opinions.  Maybe I'm just talking crazy here and they're fine.  Or maybe my replacement ideas are just as corny sounding.

opimius

  • Playtester
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 43
Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2015, 05:14:05 PM »
A few points.  On the Einherjar, the 5/5 statline doesn't feel at all right to me.  I like them at (5)6/5 1/2.
The wolves - they have got to go, or at least change so much that they are a completely different unit.  I think they are unnecessary, and agree with Corey's point about them having a lack of cheap speed being an army defining trait. 
The Giant - this guy is really good.  I might think about bumping him to a 2/4 just to raise his price, and/or moving him to a 5 move so at least he isn't filling the role of fast cav in a pinch.  Fast moving guys that really thump tend to wind up undervalued, because they can blow up their flank and start pac manning the line, at least a slower mover has some drawback (it hasn't come up with this guy yet, but with the other Giant, a 5 sidestep is really, really nasty - it can become a borderline teleport).