Author Topic: Vikings of Midgard  (Read 9883 times)

RushAss

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Vikings of Midgard
« on: March 27, 2015, 11:11:05 AM »
This is a rehash of a faction I posted a few years back.  I always thought that Battleground could use a Viking faction, but others here had mentioned to me that a historical Viking faction would be tough to pull off because there simply wasn't enough variation in the units historically.  So why not create a fantasy Viking faction instead?  Problem solved!

UPDATED 7/31/2015

Faction Ability
Berserk:   You may spend a command action to mark the Berserk box on one of your units.  During the Movement and Command phase you may erase that mark to give your unit O: (+2) +0/+0 and D: -1/+0 for the turn.  Counts as a command card if the box is erased on a charge turn.

Faction Ability: Fjordborn.  Midgard units receive a -1 MC movement penalty instead of the standard -2 MC penalty when moving through shallow water, sand, and marshes.

Units

Midgard Warband (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
204 Points

Fyrd Spearmen (Core) (6) 4/5 2/2 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
171 points

Huscarls (Core) (5) 5/6 1/3 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/3/3 (Berserk, Fjordborn)
245 points

Vikings (Core) (5) 5/5 2*/1 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
* D: +1/+0 vs. ranged attacks
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
225 points

Baendr Archers (Core) (4) 5/5 1/1 R-10.5" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Fjordborn, no ability box)
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
158 points

Dishonored (Standard) (5) 4/5 2/1 R- C-10* M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Fjordborn, no ability box),
No command cards can be played on this unit, +3 courage if in the yellow or red
120 points

Shield Maidens (Standard) (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Berserk, Fjordborn)
277 Points

Einherjar (Standard) (7) 5/5 1/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/5 (Berserk, Fjordborn, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
243 points

War Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2 (Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive, no ability box)
O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
1 additional impact hit when charging (2 total)
377 points

Sons of Odin (Elite) (6) 6/6 2/3 R-7* C-14 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn, 2 Spell boxes, see Spell list)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
454Points
Spells:
1 – Blót – Mark a spell box make a line of sight ranged attack at (4) 6/6 R-7"
2 – Portents – Your opponent must deploy 2 units before normal deployment occurs.  Mark a spell box.
3 – Iron Will – Mark a Spell box to mark a Midgard unit.  Erase the mark when that unit rolls for a pre-combat courage check.  That unit passes the check. 

Valkyries (Elite) (6) 6/5 2*/2 R- C- M-6" (10.5” when airborne)
Hit boxes 3/2/1 (Flying, Cavalry, no ability box)
O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
371 points

Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1/4 R-* C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4 (Large, Fearsome, Impulsive, no ability box)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
Aura of Frost:  On Midgard player’s turn Frost Giant makes a (2) 7/7 ranged attack on all enemy units that are engaged with it.
565 points

Command Cards

Shield Wall (1)Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Engaged enemy attacks against your units get O: (-1) -0/-0 this turn.  Your Units get D: +1/+0.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn

Valhalla Becons (1)  Play during your Movement & Command phase.  You gain 2 Command Actions which can only be used to mark Berserk boxes or to change the Standing Order to Close (without Modifiers or Objectives).

Glory in Death (2)  Play when one of your units fails a courage check.  You may lower the result of the roll by 3.

Beyond Pain (2)  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.  Your unit can erase its Berserk box to get an additional D:+0/+1 this attack.

The Blood Boils (2) Play during an attack, before you roll to hit.  When rolling to-hit and to-wound, every time you roll a 1, roll an additional die (further 1s have no effect).  The to-hit roll and the to-wound may not be re rolled. 

Beyond Mercy (2) Play during an attack, before you roll to hit.  You get O: (+1)+0/+1 this attack.  If the unit you are attacking is not in the Green, you get an additional O: (+1)+0/+0.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 10:46:04 AM by RushAss »
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
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RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 11:12:11 AM »
Design Notes

Many of the newer factions have a lot of funkiness going on in their design.  Monsters & Mercs introduced flying units.  Historical factions have Skirmishers and Pila rules.  Dark Elves have got all kinds of oddball stuff going on.  Wuxing has it's construct mechanic.  These are good things for the game IMO, but I wanted to take more of a purist approach with this faction and create something straight up and simple.  You may notice that a few of these units are based upon Scandinavian fighting units that actually existed.  Yearlings and Shield Maidens would have actually been mixed in with the Warriors but I wanted to separate them out into their own units.  The Huscarls are totally based on the Danish Huscarls that eventually would settle in Southern England and what would become Normandy in France.

I have a few hurdles here and chief among them is that no evidence exists that Vikings ever used cavalry in combat en mass.  While this is a fantasy faction, putting a unit of Vikings on horseback just feels downright goofy.  I have 4(!) workarounds here.  It's very possible that one of these units won't make the final cut.  

1 - is the Viking Raiders which are a lightly armored, fast moving foot unit not unlike High Elven Rangers.  Since Vikings are raiders by nature I figured a unit like this wouldn't be much of a stretch.  

2 - The second workaround was the Polar Bear Cavalry.  I originally wanted a straight up unit like the Ravenwood Bear Packs, but the Polar Bears came out almost identical to them.  So why not mount guys on them and make them a combo cavalry-monster unit?  This is even more far fetched than Vikings as standard cavalry (not to mention that Polar Bears didn't exist in Viking lands), but it seems to fit the flavor in a strange sense.

3 - The Arctic Wolves when envisioned as a stronger version of the Ravenwood Wolf Pack.  I'm not sure if this is a good fit for the faction and may be a bit too much of a rip off from Ravenwood.  Still, it's a reasonably cheap flanking unit.  

4 - The Valkyries.  This unit is probably going to be the biggest headache when it comes to play testing.  I'm sure I close flavor-wise, but an Impulsive flying cavalry unit may be a self defeating unit.  Still, I really wanted to work Valkyries into the faction somehow.

On being Impulsive Vikings not only enjoyed battle, they actually believed that they could become a part of the highest form of afterlife (Valhalla) if they died in battle.  I reflected this eagerness by making them impulsive.  That doesn't mean they where stupid, it just means that they REALLY wanted to get in there and start swinging.  This can be an army-wide liability to players if they are not careful with their deployment and initial standing orders.

On Wave Dasher Viking Warriors spent a good amount of time running from their longboats to shore and I wanted to reflect that experience with this ability. The non-Viking foot units (Frost Giant, Polar Bears) are Large, so they still receive the same -1 MC penalty anyways.

At Kevin's first Championship tournament in 2010 I was chatting with Chad and asked him what he thought about a faction ability box that enhanced the faction specific command cards if the ability box was checked.  His response was "My goodness, how come I never thought of that?"  So with that in mind...

On Command cards and Call of Valhalla Call of Valhalla is basically the old power charge.  As an ability it's OK but somewhat limiting since it counts as playing a command card.  But I wanted the ability to make the faction-specific command cards better if it was checked.  This would encourage players to actually check ability box at times.  This would still be a bit of a drain on command actions because you needed to be able to draw cards to maximize the usefulness and versatility you gain when checking the box and that's where Odin's war Cry came in.  I'm wondering if I should A) increase the amount of boxes you are allowed to check up to 3, B) lower the cost of checking the box to 12 or even 10 or C) a combination of both.

On all of those Elite units  5 is a pretty high amount of Elite units, but most of them are high cost and it's rare that you'll want to deploy more than one or two of them anyways.  The standout here is the Shield Maidens.  I originally envisioned them as being core, but the existence of the Huscarls made it that a player could spam either a (5) 5/6 1/3 profile or a (5) 6/5 3/1 profile depending on their needs and that struck me as awfully cheesy as you could pretty much have whatever you want.  It should never be that easy, so I placed a limitation on how many Shield Maidens you could put out there.  And while it was common for Scandinavian women to fight along side of the men, they where nowhere near the majority and making them Elite reflects that.  

Any thoughts and comments are totally welcome!

Edit:  Corey and Brook helped out by being sounding boards intermittently over the last couple of years. 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 12:52:50 PM by RushAss »
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
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Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 02:17:20 PM »
I'll work backwards from your design notes to specific concepts about the faction.

Design Notes
Many of the newer factions have a lot of funkiness going on in their design.  Monsters & Mercs introduced flying units.  Historical factions have Skirmishers and Pila rules.  Dark Elves have got all kinds of oddball stuff going on.  Wuxing has it's construct mechanic.  These are good things for the game IMO, but I wanted to take more of a purist approach with this faction and create something straight up and simple.  You may notice that a few of these units are based upon Scandinavian fighting units that actually existed.  Yearlings and Shield Maidens would have actually been mixed in with the Warriors but I wanted to separate them out into their own units.  The Huscarls are totally based on the Danish Huscarls that eventually would settle in Southern England and what would become Normandy in France.

On the whole, I think this idea is awesome and should become a real faction.  I think you have just the right mix of fantasy & archetypal Viking themes.


Quote
I have a few hurdles here and chief among them is that no evidence exists that Vikings ever used cavalry in combat en mass.  While this is a fantasy faction, putting a unit of Vikings on horseback just feels downright goofy.  I have 4(!) workarounds here.  It's very possible that one of these units won't make the final cut.  

1 - is the Viking Raiders which are a lightly armored, fast moving foot unit

2 - The second workaround was the Polar Bear Cavalry.  

3 - The Arctic Wolves when envisioned as a stronger version of the Ravenwood Wolf Pack.  

4 - The Valkyries.  

You also forgot the Frost Giant.  A T4, 6" mover that can have cards played on him is nothing to sneeze at!  I think you have a very decent set of fast moving units in there, frankly.  If there were units on the chopping block, I'd say the Arctic Wolves.  I'm also not a huge fan of Bear Cavalry, but I dislike them less than I used to.



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On being Impulsive  This can be an army-wide liability to players if they are not careful with their deployment and initial standing orders.

I like this ability.  The only thing that is worth mentioning is the spam effect.  You can work around 1-2 Impulsive units, often without even expending a CA.  But having most of your army Impulsive means that you're to have to expend CAs or end up charging earlier than you want to.  This is going to end up costing more than 3% because you're spamming the effect of Impulsive.


Quote
At Kevin's first Championship tournament in 2010 I was chatting with Chad and asked him what he thought about a faction ability box that enhanced the faction specific command cards if the ability box was checked.  His response was "My goodness, how come I never thought of that?"  So with that in mind...

On Command cards and Call of Valhalla Call of Valhalla is basically the old power charge.  As an ability it's OK but somewhat limiting since it counts as playing a command card.  

Which makes it very different than the old Pow charge.  What makes charge bonuses so good is that you can pair them with command cards.  This is an incredibly weak checkbox ability.  You're basically always better off to draw a card.

And the context of the army makes this ability even weaker.  Between the Frost Giant, Sons of Odin, Bear cavalry, and (Core!) Huscarls, you have a fair bit of high Pow in the faction.  If the faction was like Greek Mercs (not a lot of high Pow, but Core units with lots of dice and an impact hit) an ability like this would be really good (which, btw, is explicitly why they didn't get it), but since Midgard already has a fair bit of high Pow, this army ability becomes even less good.

Furthermore, with all the Impulsive around there, I'm going to pretty CA constrained.  Best case, I figure I'll be down 1-2 CAs by the time our lines hit and potentially more as the game goes on if we end up playing flank protector games.  Given that reality, I'm not going to expend my CAs on a substandard ability, especially when I have a bunch of high Pow built into the faction.  I'm going to draw cards exclusively.


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But I wanted the ability to make the faction-specific command cards better if it was checked.  This would encourage players to actually check ability box at times.  This would still be a bit of a drain on command actions because you needed to be able to draw cards to maximize the usefulness and versatility you gain when checking the box and that's where Odin's war Cry came in.  I'm wondering if I should A) increase the amount of boxes you are allowed to check up to 3, B) lower the cost of checking the box to 12 or even 10 or C) a combination of both.

Pairing the ability with the command card is neat, and should be kept, but its nowhere near enough of a cookie to make me check the box.  If I have a few points left over, I might check the Odin's War Cry box, but frankly, going second nets me 2 extra CAs for command cards, so frankly probably not.


Quote
On all of those Elite units  5 is a pretty high amount of Elite units, but most of them are high cost and it's rare that you'll want to deploy more than one or two of them anyways.  The standout here is the Shield Maidens.  I originally envisioned them as being core, but the existence of the Huscarls made it that a player could spam either a (5) 5/6 1/3 profile or a (5) 6/5 3/1 profile depending on their needs and that struck me as awfully cheesy as you could pretty much have whatever you want.  It should never be that easy, so I placed a limitation on how many Shield Maidens you could put out there.  And while it was common for Scandinavian women to fight along side of the men, they where nowhere near the majority and making them Elite reflects that.


Well, regardless of what is real, I think you're perfectly justified breaking them into smaller units like that.  I agree with the choice of not having shield maidens be Core.   I mean, you have 13 units, which is on par for what most factions do.  The standard is 12, but if you have a lot of Elite, then I think it's okay to give the faction an additional unit.  Plus, I think having lots of Elite adds more flavor to the faction, honestly.



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Fyrd Spearmen (Core) (6) 4/5 2/2 R- C-12 M-3.5"

One comment on naming:  "Fyrd" connoted the able warriors while "bondi" was more of the less good quality.  If you wanted to have names beyond the simple "Viking Swordsmen" you could call the swordsmen "Fyrd Swordsmen" and the spearmen "Bondi (or Bonded) Spearmen."  Or even just call the swordsmen "Fyrdmen" and the spearmen "Bondsmen" and let the art explain what they are.  Just a thought.


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Einherjar (6) 5/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/5 (Call of Valhalla, wave Dasher)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
252 points

I have to say I don't think this unit is very useful.  You pay 60pts more than Swordsmen for a unit that is not going to increase the damage output much.  And yet, it also lacks the ability to really tank that well.  Yeah it has 2 more boxes and is fearless, but it still is only D:2/2.  Plus its Standard, so it really is points you have to pull from your other 'good stuff.'  It just seems to be very much a Master-of-None unit that is less than the sum of its parts.


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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Call of Valhalla, wave Dasher, Impulsive)
226 Points

I'll be honest: the D:3/1 with the Shield Maidens bugs me from a thematic point of view.  First, it just bothers me that the woman unit is automatically the "frail" or "nimble combatant" unit in the faction.  Its a 1980s D&D concept that feels . . . lazy (for lack of a better word).  Second, the Yearlings, who haven't proven themselves) get sent off in chainmail, but not the womenfolk?  Third, vikings went with Shield Wives, not shield maidens.  A maiden is unproven.  A Wife, having felt the pain of childbirth and seen the ensuing gore, has proven herself capable.


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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

Wait, these guys don't get Impulsive?  Really?  Really?  


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Valkyries (Elite) (6) 6/5 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
360 points

I think your concerns here are well founded:  Impulsive is going to wreck their usefulness, because basically they're going to require a CA every turn to not land and plow into the nearest enemy.  I'd think this would be one of the units that isn't impulsive.  They're from Valhalla, they don't have the burning desire to earn their place there.  Plus, they're also supposed to take the honorable dead back with them, not exactly a job description that it'd hurt to have a level head.

Also, why not Pow 6?  I mean, if the Valkyries don't have magic swords...?


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Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1*/4 R- C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive
D +1/+0 while Charging
2 Frost Blast boxes.  Spend 1 command action to mark a frost blast box.  When a Frost Blast is erased during an attack, all enemy units engaged with Frost Giant get -1 attack die for that turn.  No more than 1 box can be erased per turn.  Does not count as playing a command card.
508 points

I don't have the formula in front of me, but this guy seems kind of cheap for a guy who has basically the same stats as the Hill Giant but you can play command cards on him for no penalty.


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Shield Wall (2)
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  
Each of your units that have the Call of Valhalla box checked get D: +1/+0 this attack.  All units attacking units effected by shield wall get O: (-1) -0/-0 this turn.  Those units may not erase their Call of Valhalla
box or be affected by command cards when defending this turn.

I think this is a weak card.  The Umenzi & Orc card that does the same thing doesn't come with a penalty on the units.  Ignore this.  I misread it.


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Pagan Spirit (2)
Play during a courage phase, before you take any courage checks.  
Up to 3 of your units gets +2 Courage this turn.  If any of these units has the Call of Valhalla box checked, it gets an additional +1 courage.

I think this card may be tricky, because it may end up feeling like Oathbound only worse (because you have a lot of D:2/2).  In general, only having 2 courage cards (and them not being rerolls) is actually going to make your army more fragile than you think.  Cge 13 is nice, but the D:2/2 and 4G/2Y/4R hitboxes means you will be taking checks fairly often.  And with Impulsive, you're going to be faced with the choice of starting bad fights on your turn or drawing cards (which isn't much a choice:  draw the cards most times) and so combats will start earlier than you want.  Just something to keep in mind.


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Midgard's Charm (2)
Your unit gets D: +1/+0 this attack.  If your unit has the Call of Valhalla box checked that unit gets D: +2/+0 this attack instead.

Hail to the Hammer (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Call of Valhalla box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  

Show Your Swords (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Call of Valhalla box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  

Neat effect, but like I said above, not enough to justify spending the card on the ability.  Also, I think its odd that the Red cards get exactly half the bonus that the Blue card gets.


Like I said before, this is a great idea and this faction should become a reality.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:34:28 PM by Hannibal »

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 03:52:22 PM »
Thanks for your input!  I'll address these as best I can right now.

Arctic Wolves - I'm thinking that the throw away unit in this faction will either be the Wolves or the Polar Bears.  I'm not sure which.

Call of Valhalla - I prefer to start an ability off as weak and then work upwards from there.  What do you thing would strengthen it up to the point where it would be worth it to check the ability box?  The simplest fix would be to not make it count as playing a command card.  Would that be too good?

Fyrd Spearmen - There's a few units here that don't have the names carved in stone.  This happens to be one of them.  For now I like the idea of keeping the name of the Warriors as is because... well... they're Viking Warriors!  Surely in time that could also change if something grabs me as being better.

Einherjar - I liked the idea of a tank unit that tanked through bulk and not defensive stats.  They will eventually be destroyed by good units, but they will have to carve their way all the way through.  I'm wondering if I should just pull an attack die off to make them a (5) 5/5, which would put them at 225 points.  Would making them more affordable increase their tank value without changing anything else?

Valkyries - Based on your suggestion I removed Impulsive and gave them a 6 offensive power and that shot the points value way up past 400.  Which is an incredible price to pay for what basically amounts to a super charged glass cannon.  If I remove a hit die from that metric to make them (5) 6/6 they go down to 393 points.  Which is still incredibly high, but I can probably deal with that.  But yeah, nixing the impulsiveness would erase a huge amount of headaches with this unit.

Shield Maidens - Jacking the defensive stat up to a 3/2 pumps them up to 268 points, which isn't as bad as I thought it would be.  I could ride with that.

Polar Bear Cavalry - Impulsive cavalry units can be a pain, but making them so is certainly worth considering because I can totally see that matching the flavor.

Frost Giant - I accidentally omitted the fact that they are a 1 card pitch-and-play.  I have it in the formula, just neglected to write it in my initial post above.  As it stands, it's 488 points.  I'm uncertain what to charge it for the Frost Blast ability so I started off by charging it as though it was an impact hit (+20 points making it 508).  I'm not sure if I should charge more for the ability because unlike an impact hit, it's not built in.  You need to spend a CA to check the box.  On the other hand, I could make it like Dragon fire breathing boxes and you just mark them off as you use the ability.  If that was the case I'd probably have to charge a bit more for that ability.  Any thoughts on that one?

Shield Wall - It's basically a mass Parry.  Since it only works on units that have the ability box checked I'm thinking I may include a second option to discard the card to draw another one.  Especially since this card can get worse in endgame situations.

The command cards can be worked out once the Call of Valhalla ability is balanced.  That includes Shield Wall above.
"You can never break the chain - There is never love without pain
A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
-Rush, Secret Touch

Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 04:33:09 PM »
Arctic Wolves - I'm thinking that the throw away unit in this faction will either be the Wolves or the Polar Bears.  I'm not sure which.

Something I mentioned to you privately, is that this faction feels a little too unsure of what it is.  If feels like you have 8 semi-historical units with 4 fantasy units tossed in, but without much glue to hold them together.  It feels like Ravenwood, but with wood elves we have a built-in justification for why spirits of the woods are fighting alongside the elves.  But I'm not getting any feeling like that here.

My intuition is that you should pick a direction.  Either these guys are a "Nordic Hawkshold" that could easily be a historical faction (in which case drop the mystical Valkyries and Bear cavalry) or they're a fantasy Viking (in which case the Bear cavalry is not over-the-top enough, like you need things like Jotun-Kin as your Core choices instead of just Huscarls).  Just my feeling.


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Call of Valhalla - I prefer to start an ability off as weak and then work upwards from there.  What do you thing would strengthen it up to the point where it would be worth it to check the ability box?  The simplest fix would be to not make it count as playing a command card.  Would that be too good?

Honestly, I'd probably ditch this ability altogether.  If you want the guys to have a Pow charge, then you can very easily do that (heck the formula has it costed in!).  I dunno, I'd probably come up with a different ability altogether.


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Einherjar - I liked the idea of a tank unit that tanked through bulk and not defensive stats.  They will eventually be destroyed by good units, but they will have to carve their way all the way through.  I'm wondering if I should just pull an attack die off to make them a (5) 5/5, which would put them at 225 points.  Would making them more affordable increase their tank value without changing anything else?

225pts is still high for a Non-Core tank, but is definitely better than 250pts.


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Valkyries - Based on your suggestion I removed Impulsive and gave them a 6 offensive power and that shot the points value way up past 400.  Which is an incredible price to pay for what basically amounts to a super charged glass cannon.  If I remove a hit die from that metric to make them (5) 6/6 they go down to 393 points.  Which is still incredibly high, but I can probably deal with that.  But yeah, nixing the impulsiveness would erase a huge amount of headaches with this unit.

Or leave them at Pow 5.  I was just spitballing.


Quote
Frost Giant - I accidentally omitted the fact that they are a 1 card pitch-and-play.  I have it in the formula, just neglected to write it in my initial post above.  As it stands, it's 488 points.  I'm uncertain what to charge it for the Frost Blast ability so I started off by charging it as though it was an impact hit (+20 points making it 508).  I'm not sure if I should charge more for the ability because unlike an impact hit, it's not built in.  You need to spend a CA to check the box.  On the other hand, I could make it like Dragon fire breathing boxes and you just mark them off as you use the ability.  If that was the case I'd probably have to charge a bit more for that ability.  Any thoughts on that one?

Honestly, I wouldn't charge it as anything, because 1 CA for -1 die is really weak.  Its not really an ability I'd use much.


Quote
Shield Wall - It's basically a mass Parry.  Since it only works on units that have the ability box checked I'm thinking I may include a second option to discard the card to draw another one.  Especially since this card can get worse in endgame situations.

My bad!  I misread that originally.  I thought the Viking units got -1 die (on account they were hunkered down by their shields).  In that case, it's probably too strong.  Mass Parry is a really good thing.  I think just a +2 Def Skill across the board would work just fine.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:34:53 PM by Hannibal »

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 08:40:08 PM »

Something I mentioned to you privately, is that this faction feels a little too unsure of what it is.  If feels like you have 8 semi-historical units with 4 fantasy units tossed in, but without much glue to hold them together.  It feels like Ravenwood, but with wood elves we have a built-in justification for why spirits of the woods are fighting alongside the elves.  But I'm not getting any feeling like that here.

My intuition is that you should pick a direction.  Either these guys are a "Nordic Hawkshold" that could easily be a historical faction (in which case drop the mystical Valkyries and Bear cavalry) or they're a fantasy Viking (in which case the Bear cavalry is not over-the-top enough, like you need things like Jotun-Kin as your Core choices instead of just Huscarls).  Just my feeling.
My intention was to create a faction where the Core units are really close to historical accuracy while the Standard and Elite units would be pure fantasy.

Quote
Frost Giant - I accidentally omitted the fact that they are a 1 card pitch-and-play.  I have it in the formula, just neglected to write it in my initial post above.  As it stands, it's 488 points.  I'm uncertain what to charge it for the Frost Blast ability so I started off by charging it as though it was an impact hit (+20 points making it 508).  I'm not sure if I should charge more for the ability because unlike an impact hit, it's not built in.  You need to spend a CA to check the box.  On the other hand, I could make it like Dragon fire breathing boxes and you just mark them off as you use the ability.  If that was the case I'd probably have to charge a bit more for that ability.  Any thoughts on that one?

Honestly, I wouldn't charge it as anything, because 1 CA for -1 die is really weak.  Its not really an ability I'd use much.
It's not an ability I would use much at all myself.  But it's a really nice thing to have up your sleave if your 500 point unit gets pinched.  Especially since he's Impulsive  8)

Quote
Shield Wall - It's basically a mass Parry.  Since it only works on units that have the ability box checked I'm thinking I may include a second option to discard the card to draw another one.  Especially since this card can get worse in endgame situations.

My bad!  I misread that originally.  I thought the Viking units got -1 die (on account they were hunkered down by their shields).  In that case, it's probably too strong.  Mass Parry is a really good thing.  I think just a +2 Def Skill across the board would work just fine.
Yeah, a mass Parry is crazy strong.  But again, it only applies to units that have the faction ability check box marked.  Does that balance it out enough?

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Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 10:12:35 PM »
Quote
My intention was to create a faction where the Core units are really close to historical accuracy while the Standard and Elite units would be pure fantasy.

Well then you're missing the mark by far.  Because those Core choices look more like the Hollywood History vikings than actual vikings.


Quote
It's not an ability I would use much at all myself.  But it's a really nice thing to have up your sleave if your 500 point unit gets pinched.  Especially since he's Impulsive   8)

In that situation, I'd probably spend the CA drawing the card.


Quote
Yeah, a mass Parry is crazy strong.  But again, it only applies to units that have the faction ability check box marked.  Does that balance it out enough?

Probably.  I still have concerns of how strong it is, but then again, having a bunch of guys need the checkbox to get maximum usage might be balanced.  Or it might be swingy.

Maybe a better one would be that it gives (-1)-0/-0 and if you have the marked box you get D:+1/+0.

opimius

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 02:02:14 AM »
A few, likely disjointed, comments.  Overall, I really like this idea - Vikings are just one of those things that culturally resonates so deeply that not having them borders on problematic - and I think this is very much on the right path.  The ahistoricity of the core units doesn't bother me too much - (5)5/5 2/2 4G/3Y/3R modified by weapons and differentiated mostly by gear and Cge., while historically fairly accurate, gets boring quickly (in fairness, a lot of the historical differentiation is best captured in ways that Battleground, as it currently exists, would need a whole new mod to deal with).  Call of Valhalla is weak - not broken weak, but weak - as laid out above; my instinct is to just make it the old POW charge, but that is mostly for simplicity.  I really dislike the Pagan Spirit name (the card is meh, but the name I don't like) - I just don't feel them calling themselves "pagans", and Thor has yet to be invoked ...  The Frost Giant is really good, and yet his ability is a total POS; not sure right now how to fix this, but it will almost never be used.  The Valkyries - which I prefer at POW 6 - should probably not be flying.  Yes, I know the mythology and all, but the mechanics of flying are a pain.  Maybe something along the lines of the Triarii swap might be better; it would certainly be easier (and, if properly restricted, could really hit the flavor of "choosers of the slain").  The Shieldmaidens ought remain 3/1 - I suspect this is going to be a conversation for me soon - because if they are merely women skilled at arms, they can just be part of the other basic units, but if they are something special, they need to have a purpose.  Since in this case, both gameplay and cultural resonance push me towards the 3/1 (and probably 5/5), I go there first.  Impulsive cav hurts my brain right now, so my instinct is not to do it.  The Viking bowmen are overcosted for what they do - either use the crossbows as a template, or just let them suck in melee, because the game really does not need more bowmen that tend to stay in the box anyway.  I do like the wolves, but let me put them on the table sometime first - they make me a touch queasy mechanically.  Keep up the good work, though - I have yet to see a fantasy game that couldn't use more Vikings!
 

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 09:34:28 AM »
Thanks for the input guys!  I'll regurgitate a spat of ideas (some good, most probably bad) shortly.
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Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 10:47:05 AM »
A few, likely disjointed, comments.  Overall, I really like this idea - Vikings are just one of those things that culturally resonates so deeply that not having them borders on problematic - and I think this is very much on the right path. 

Look, Marcus, you managed to get Scott to post on a non-Rules Team thread!  All you had to do was talk about his favorite army type:  vikings.


Quote
The ahistoricity of the core units doesn't bother me too much

To be clear:  I wasn't saying Vikings shouldn't be a-historical.  My comment is that they weren't a-historical enough.  Fantasy vikings offers so much possibility that I think you should really embrace that, rather than sticking to a (faux) historical template.  For example, one idea right off the top of my head is make the vikings descended from giants, so their army ability is named something like Jotunkin or Jotun Blood.


Quote
The Valkyries - which I prefer at POW 6 - should probably not be flying.  Yes, I know the mythology and all, but the mechanics of flying are a pain. 

Scott & I have this debate all the time:

Scott:  "I don't like flying units, because the rules are so OFP."
Me:  "The flying rules feel so weird because there's not a lot of flying units.  Add more and people will get used to the rules."

 ;D


Quote
The Shieldmaidens ought remain 3/1 - I suspect this is going to be a conversation for me soon - because if they are merely women skilled at arms, they can just be part of the other basic units, but if they are something special, they need to have a purpose.  Since in this case, both gameplay and cultural resonance push me towards the 3/1 (and probably 5/5), I go there first. 

At which point Shieldmaidens become Battle Squad like units.


Quote
Impulsive cav hurts my brain right now, so my instinct is not to do it. 

Gallic Cavalry are Impulsive, and you like them (more than I do in fact).


Quote
The Viking bowmen are overcosted for what they do - either use the crossbows as a template, or just let them suck in melee, because the game really does not need more bowmen that tend to stay in the box anyway. 

I don't think they're overcosted vis-a-vi other archers; Hawkshold Bowmen are 165pts.  Not being Core is going to hurt them though.


Quote
Keep up the good work, though - I have yet to see a fantasy game that couldn't use more Vikings!

In this, Scott & I are in violent agreement!


Thanks for the input guys!  I'll regurgitate a spat of ideas (some good, most probably bad) shortly.

M'eh, that's what a lot of design is:  starting with a stone block and chiseling away.
 

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 04:46:28 PM »
OK, after some discussion with Corey, communion with the Gods, and watching The 13th warrior 97 times, I’ve made a few edits.  Some of the command card names are still in flux, as are some of the unit names themselves.  1 big change I made is by giving the non-large impulsive units an impact hit to reflect their sheer ferocity in battle.

Faction Ability: Jotunkin: Spend a Command Action to mark the Jotunkin box on the unit.  You may erase the box during the Movement & Command Phase to give the unit (+1)+0/+0 and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit is in the Red, the unit gets (+2+0/+0 and +2 Cge this turn instead.

Faction Ability: Wave Dasher.  Midgard units recieve a -1 MC movement penalty instead of the standard -2 MC penalty when moving through shallow water.

Units

Midgard Warriors (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
204 Points
Notes: The bulk of Scandinavian fighting forces, they where good individual warriors that used a variety of weapons and armor.  However, they where not always the most cohesive of fighting units.

Fyrd Spearmen (Core) (6) 4/5 2/2 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
171 points

Notes: Farmers who where given farmland by the Earl.  But these farmers never strayed far from their warrior roots.

Huscarls (Core) (5) 5/6 1/3 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/3/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
258 points

Notes: Vested land owners favored by the Earl who where wealthier that standard land owners and thus could afford better weapons and armor.  Danish Huscarls made up a good amount of the English army at the Battle of Hastings and wielded the dreaded Dane Axe.

Yearlings (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
156 points

Notes: Teen aged Viking Warriors eager to prove their worth on their first raid.

Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
221 points

Notes: Lightly armored Warriors who hurled hand axes before entering combat.

Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

Notes: They fought a bit better than your average bowmen (note that I got the points wrong on my first posting)

Einherjar (5) 5/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/5 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
235 points

Notes: The ghosts of the worthy dead return from Valhala itself to fight at your side!  They are fearless in death.

Arctic Wolves (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C- 12 M-6"
Hit boxes 2/5/2
O (+2) +0/+0 and D +3/+0 during post-Rout Free Attacks. If Arctic Wolves Rout, they automatically rally at the end of turn. Is unaffected by your command Cards.  To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
180 points

Notes: Bigger, stronger, and smarter than their distant cousins in Ravenwood.
(This unit may get the axe)

Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
277 Points

Notes: These women fought along side of the men and made up for their lack of comparative size and strength with quickness.  Many of them fought with a chip on their shoulder, so to speak.

Sons of Odin (Elite) (6) 6/6 2/3 R- C-14 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/4 (Jotunkin, wave Dasher) Passes all Fear Checks. (This ability does not apply to Rout Checks.)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
438 Points

The great warrior priests who have taken up the spear in honor of the All Father Odin.  The most zealous of them have plucked out an eye to emulate him.  They fight with the strength of the Gods.

Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
375 points

Notes: Vikings are awesome.  Bears are brutal.  Cavalry is sweet.  This is what happens when you bring them all together.

Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points

Notes: Odin's War Maidens sent from Valhalla on winged steeds to collect the souls of the slain in battle.  They have been known to contribute to the slain on their own accord.  While they are fearsome allies in battle, they have a will of their own.

Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1/4 R-10.5” C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
2 Frost Blast boxes.  When unengaged, you may mark off 1 Frost blast box to give Frost Giant a line of sight ranged attack of (3) 6/6.
501 points

Notes: More clever than their cousins in the Hills, The mighty Frost Giants have betrayed the Jotun to fight with the Vikings on behalf of the Gods.

Command Cards

Shield Wall (2)
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Engaged enemy attacks against your units get (-1)-0/-0 this turn.  Units with a marked [Jotunkin] box also get D:+1/+0 this turn while the box is marked.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

Call of Valhalla (2)
Play during a courage phase, before you take any courage checks.  
Up to 3 of your units gets +2 Courage this turn.  If any of these units has the Jotunkin box checked, it gets an additional +1 courage.

Freyja's Haven (2)
Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.  If your unit has the Jotunkin box checked the attacking unit cannot have command cards played on it.

Hail to the Hammer (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.  

Show Your Swords (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +1/+0 this attack.  
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 12:50:38 PM by RushAss »
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A gentle hand, a secret touch on the heart
A healing hand, as secret touch on the heart"
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BubblePig

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 07:26:34 PM »
Quote
1 big change I made is by giving the non-large impulsive units an impact hit to reflect their sheer ferocity in battle.
I am a bit confused by this because shield maidens are not impulsive but get the impact hit.
I would like the flavor of a more experienced unit which is not impulsive as warriors yearlings housecarls etc (because they have seen enough battle that the need to prove themselves is not as keen) and better attack skill. The Polar Bear Cavalry, while interesting, for me breaks the mood and makes the faction less viking-like. Instead of getting rid of Arctic Wolves, were I you, I would be tempted instead to double down on wolfiness and make an even bigger version (Dire Wolves maybe?) instead of Polar Bear cav.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 07:43:04 PM by BubblePig »

Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 12:38:50 AM »
My thoughts, in no particular order.

Faction Ability: Jotunkin: Spend a Command Action to mark the Jotunkin box on the unit.  You may erase the box during the Movement & Command Phase to give the unit (+1)+0/+0 and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit is in the Red, the unit gets (+2+0/+0 and +2 Cge this turn instead.

Faction Ability: Wave Dasher.  Midgard units recieve a -1 MC movement penalty instead of the standard -2 MC penalty when moving through shallow water.

I'd recommend adding Impulsive here, just so that its in the "reminder card" territory, so people can see it and know the effect.

I also wonder if you should give Impulsive units a 5% discount instead of a 3%, since you are spamming it pretty much army wide.  5% is what Stupid units get and I figure with all that impulsive the effect has got to be at least as bad as having 1 Ogre unit on the table.


Quote
Units
Yearlings (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
156 points

Previously, these guys were a D:1/2.  Did you mean to changed them to a D:2/1?


Quote
Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/4/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
214 points

A couple of thoughts here:

1)  These points look way wrong.  I get 268 for a unit with this statline.

2)  A recommendation on the hit boxes:  I suggest putting these guys at 4G/2Y/4R like warriors, to keep that theme.  If you want someone who is front loaded with boxes, representing a more elite formation, I suggest Huscarls.

3)  Maybe make these guys a D:2/1?  They're raiders and that screams light armor to me.



Quote
Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

This is accurately costed, but I can tell you that these guys are probably going to be stay-in-the-box units.  Being this expensive and non-Core?  They're going to be Trog Archers all over again.  Not much we can do about that, I guess.  Except maybe fix the shooting rules, but that's another conversation for another time.


Quote
Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
243 Points

I agree with Ron, that not having an impact hit works better.  I also much prefer this unit at D:3/2.

 
Quote
Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

I've come around to this unit.  I think its over the top enough to be worth keeping.  My thoughts are: 

1)  why don't these guys get a checkbox?  And why are they pitch-to-play?  I see nothing in them that says they shouldn't get those.  I mean you can say "hey, Bears, like Ravenwood," but Drake Riders don't have that restriction.  Neither do Wolf Riders.  Or any other cavalry in the game.  Feels like these guys should get those abilities, otherwise I think they'll be a very sub-par unit.  Right now it feels like they're in their neither region:  they pay a lot of points, just enough to be really hindered by those drawbacks, but they don't pay enough points to get good stats to overcome their drawbacks (like a Giant or a Hydra).

2)  The points are a bit off.  I think you forgot the cavalry_vulnerability modifier, which lowers their cost to 338.

3)  These guys really should be Impulsive....




Quote
Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points

And these shouldn't be Impulsive.  It'll make them a nightmare to control.

Notes: Odin's War Maidens sent from Valhalla on winged steeds to collect the souls of the slain in battle.  They have been known to contribute to the slain on their own accord.  While they are fearsome allies in battle, they have a will of their own.


Quote
Command Cards
Shield Wall (2)
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Engaged enemy attacks against your units get (-1)-0/-0 this turn.  Units with a marked [Jotunkin] box also get D:+1/+0 this turn while the box is marked.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

You know, on review this card is pretty weak if you don't have a marked checkbox.  Give up all blue cards for -1 die?  Here's an idea:  make it D:+1/+0 for all your units, and you can't play blue command cards.  Then give them D:+0/+1 while the checkbox is marked.  D:+1/+1 seems like a lot, but you're having to devote multiple CAs to do it.


Quote
Freyja's Haven (2)
Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.  If your unit has the Jotunkin box checked the attacking unit cannot have command cards played on it.

Hail to the Hammer (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack. 

Show Your Swords (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +1/+0 this attack. 

My thought on these is to tie the marked checkbox together with toughness & strength, to really draw the theme together. My thoughts:

Freya's Haven: additional D:+0/+1 with the marked box.  (i.e. D:+0/+2 and enemy has -1 die)

Hail to the Hammer:  additional (+0)+0/+1 with the marked box.  (i.e. O:(+1)+0/+2)

Show your Sowrds:  additional (+0)+0/+1 with the marked box.  (i.e. O:(+1)+1/+1).

That, with the above idea for Shieldwall really makes the vikings feel like they're tougher and stronger.

RushAss

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 10:32:11 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts Ron!  I addressed the Sheild Maidens below.  I've actually discussed a Dire Wolf type unit with Corey.  I'm not wild about it, but the door is still open on that one.  The Polar Bear Cavalry is pure fantasy cheese. 

My thoughts, in no particular order.

Faction Ability:...

I'd recommend adding Impulsive here, just so that its in the "reminder card" territory, so people can see it and know the effect.

I also wonder if you should give Impulsive units a 5% discount instead of a 3%, since you are spamming it pretty much army wide.  5% is what Stupid units get and I figure with all that impulsive the effect has got to be at least as bad as having 1 Ogre unit on the table.
Including Impulsive on the reminder card is fine.  I suppose play testing will reveal the value of Impulsiveness en masse?

Quote
Units
Yearlings (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
156 points

Previously, these guys were a D:1/2.  Did you mean to changed them to a D:2/1?
Ack!  This was a typo from the beginning.  It should have been a 2/1 defense all along.  That's what I have in the formula.  I'll fix it above.

Quote
Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/4/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
214 points

A couple of thoughts here:

1)  These points look way wrong.  I get 268 for a unit with this statline.

2)  A recommendation on the hit boxes:  I suggest putting these guys at 4G/2Y/4R like warriors, to keep that theme.  If you want someone who is front loaded with boxes, representing a more elite formation, I suggest Huscarls.

3)  Maybe make these guys a D:2/1?  They're raiders and that screams light armor to me.
Double Ack!  I have no idea how so many mistakes got in there, I probably copied stats from the Warriors and plunked it down on the Raiders.  They where originally a 2/1 defense and a 4/2/2 hit box configuration.  My thought was that as a unit they would be a bit looser in formation and wouldn't have as many individuals in a unit as most of the other line units.  At that they would be 214.  If I give them 4/2/4 they become 221.  I also had made a mistake in the formula for neglecting to factor in their MC for being Impulsive (Impulsive_MC_5).  I feel that's a bit high for this type of unit.  What do you think?

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Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

This is accurately costed, but I can tell you that these guys are probably going to be stay-in-the-box units.  Being this expensive and non-Core?  They're going to be Trog Archers all over again.  Not much we can do about that, I guess.  Except maybe fix the shooting rules, but that's another conversation for another time.
Yeah, I'm really struggling with these guys.  I don't feel that mass archery would be common enough for Midgard to justify them being Core.  And I absolutely HATE the idea of any archery unit having a (4) 3/3 engaged attack.  I know archers are not front line fighter types, but a 3/3 offensive stat is like being attacked by a gang of 5th graders.  Making them a 1/1 defense brings them down to 179 points.  a 0/2 makes them 185.  Either one is a decent fix, we'd just be left with a lesser version of the same problem.  Any advice here would be helpful.

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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
243 Points

I agree with Ron, that not having an impact hit works better.  I also much prefer this unit at D:3/2.
OK, non-impulsive and no impact hit at a 3/2 defense makes them 277 points.  They are beginning to look an awful lot like High Elven Swordsmen.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

I've come around to this unit.  I think its over the top enough to be worth keeping.  My thoughts are: 

1)  why don't these guys get a checkbox?  And why are they pitch-to-play?  I see nothing in them that says they shouldn't get those.  I mean you can say "hey, Bears, like Ravenwood," but Drake Riders don't have that restriction.  Neither do Wolf Riders.  Or any other cavalry in the game.  Feels like these guys should get those abilities, otherwise I think they'll be a very sub-par unit.  Right now it feels like they're in their neither region:  they pay a lot of points, just enough to be really hindered by those drawbacks, but they don't pay enough points to get good stats to overcome their drawbacks (like a Giant or a Hydra).

3)  These guys really should be Impulsive....
My thoughts on the pitch to play where that the Bears are a bit more difficult to control than horses.  Of course making them Impulsive sort of reflects the same thing.  Earlier on the faction ability gave a +1 power and I figured that these guys didn't need that.  Changing the ability to Jotunkin makes having a check box on them viable.  Speaking of which, I'm starting to like Jotunblut better as the faction ability name.

2)  The points are a bit off.  I think you forgot the cavalry_vulnerability modifier, which lowers their cost to 338.
No, I left the cavalry_vulnerability modifier off intentionally because the unit has 8 hit boxes instead of the 5-7 hit boxes all other cavalry units posses.  At what point do you draw the line with that?  I mean, 8 hit boxes is pushing into line unit territory.  Am I wrong for doing that?

BTW - No pitch to play with a faction ability and Impulsive - 352 points.

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Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points

And these shouldn't be Impulsive.  It'll make them a nightmare to control.
I had removed the Impulsiveness from the formula but forgot to remove it from the description.  Corrected above.  I'm also struggling with this unit because they are just so darned expensive for what their combat ability allows.  I'm kicking the tires on an idea that reflects that they would fly onto the battlefield pre-game but remained grounded for the duration of the battle itself.  Something along the lines of the rules Skirmishers use for deployment.  Valkyries on steeds by definition fly so there should be some reflection of that in the unit.  I'm just really souring on the thought of a ~400 point unit that acts like a bunch of fearless Antonians.

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Hannibal

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Re: Vikings of Midgard
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 01:05:48 PM »
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Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/4/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
214 points

A couple of thoughts here:

1)  These points look way wrong.  I get 268 for a unit with this statline.

2)  A recommendation on the hit boxes:  I suggest putting these guys at 4G/2Y/4R like warriors, to keep that theme.  If you want someone who is front loaded with boxes, representing a more elite formation, I suggest Huscarls.

3)  Maybe make these guys a D:2/1?  They're raiders and that screams light armor to me.
Double Ack!  I have no idea how so many mistakes got in there, I probably copied stats from the Warriors and plunked it down on the Raiders.  They where originally a 2/1 defense and a 4/2/2 hit box configuration.  My thought was that as a unit they would be a bit looser in formation and wouldn't have as many individuals in a unit as most of the other line units.  At that they would be 214.  If I give them 4/2/4 they become 221.  I also had made a mistake in the formula for neglecting to factor in their MC for being Impulsive (Impulsive_MC_5).  I feel that's a bit high for this type of unit.  What do you think?

Oh, if you want them to be 4/2/2, then by all means go with that!  And them being at D:2/1 brings their cost down to a very manageable 215pts (the Impulsive_MC_5 is n't an original modifier.  It's something I was tweaking with in regards to accurately costing Impulsive.  I forgot to delete it before i email you the formula).


Quote
Quote
Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

This is accurately costed, but I can tell you that these guys are probably going to be stay-in-the-box units.  Being this expensive and non-Core?  They're going to be Trog Archers all over again.  Not much we can do about that, I guess.  Except maybe fix the shooting rules, but that's another conversation for another time.
Yeah, I'm really struggling with these guys.  I don't feel that mass archery would be common enough for Midgard to justify them being Core.  And I absolutely HATE the idea of any archery unit having a (4) 3/3 engaged attack.  I know archers are not front line fighter types, but a 3/3 offensive stat is like being attacked by a gang of 5th graders.  Making them a 1/1 defense brings them down to 179 points.  a 0/2 makes them 185.  Either one is a decent fix, we'd just be left with a lesser version of the same problem.  Any advice here would be helpful.

If non-spammed archers had value, I'd say the unit is fine (although not being Core might reduce their value).  You're paying a 30pt premium for a unit that can fight somewhat decently as a backup unit (like the Umenzi Atlatlmen) and finish off an enemy unit that is down to the Red during the process of killing that backed-up unit.  That's not a terrible premium for a unit with a decent secondary use.  Its just their primary use (shooting) isn't a great return on those points you spent.  That's a problem of the shooting rules (which IMO needs fixing), not the unit itself.

Shooting is a case where the game has passed the formula by.  The formula has shown to be remarkably robust in most situations, especially considering how very different the game was from V1 to now.  Its just that the shooting rules are so different that the formula has become a loose proxy (at best) for shooting value.

My suggestion is to not try to tweak the unit.  Design the unit as thought 1-2 units of Skill 5 archers is a good buy.  Eventually, the Rules Team will get around to tweaking the rules to make that a reality.  When they do, units like this will come out of the box again and be balanced.  But if you try to make the unit worth taking with this set of crappy shooting rules, then when the rules get fixed this unit will be overpowered (and in fact this unit would be used as an argument against making any changes).

As an aside, there is a justification for having them be Core.  The Vikings did actually use archery a fair bit.  They'd have archers hang back behind the shieldwall, pouring fire into the enemy.  Like I said, I'm not a big fan of being a slave to history (you seem more interested in modelling the Core choices that way), but if you wanted to do it, you could.


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Quote
Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
243 Points

I agree with Ron, that not having an impact hit works better.  I also much prefer this unit at D:3/2.
OK, non-impulsive and no impact hit at a 3/2 defense makes them 277 points.  They are beginning to look an awful lot like High Elven Swordsmen.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Well, at D:3/1 they looked a lot like DE Highblood Swordsmen.  There's only so many permutations of stats.   ;)

You could give them an extra Red box (make them 4/2/4), which would help differentiate them from Elves.

Still think they should be called Shield Wives . . .


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Quote
Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

I've come around to this unit.  I think its over the top enough to be worth keeping.  My thoughts are: 

1)  why don't these guys get a checkbox?  And why are they pitch-to-play?  I see nothing in them that says they shouldn't get those.  I mean you can say "hey, Bears, like Ravenwood," but Drake Riders don't have that restriction.  Neither do Wolf Riders.  Or any other cavalry in the game.  Feels like these guys should get those abilities, otherwise I think they'll be a very sub-par unit.  Right now it feels like they're in their neither region:  they pay a lot of points, just enough to be really hindered by those drawbacks, but they don't pay enough points to get good stats to overcome their drawbacks (like a Giant or a Hydra).

3)  These guys really should be Impulsive....
My thoughts on the pitch to play where that the Bears are a bit more difficult to control than horses.  Of course making them Impulsive sort of reflects the same thing.  Earlier on the faction ability gave a +1 power and I figured that these guys didn't need that.  Changing the ability to Jotunkin makes having a check box on them viable. 

I'll take it one step further:  if you make these guys Impulsive, I'd give them the extra impact too (so they'd be 2 impact hits on the charge). 


Quote
2)  The points are a bit off.  I think you forgot the cavalry_vulnerability modifier, which lowers their cost to 338.
No, I left the cavalry_vulnerability modifier off intentionally because the unit has 8 hit boxes instead of the 5-7 hit boxes all other cavalry units posses.  At what point do you draw the line with that?  I mean, 8 hit boxes is pushing into line unit territory.  Am I wrong for doing that?

I'd give them the cavalry vulnerability, honestly.  They are still vulnerable to spearmen.  If you want to feel better, make them 3G/2Y/3R instead of 3/3/2.  So while they would have 8 boxes, more than 2 Red boxes is usually a waste.  And making them 3/2/3 keeps the hit box theme of the warriors (and it makes the army ability better).


Quote
BTW - No pitch to play with a faction ability and Impulsive - 352 points.

With Cge 14, their cost is actually 375 pts.  Also, you should use the normal Impulsive & not the "MC 5 Impulsive."  That brings their cost to 383 pts.  Here's some of the options I mentioned above:

A)  Extra impact hit + Cav Vulnerability = 384 pts

B)  3/2/3 boxes + cav vulnerability = 357 pts

C)  3/2/3 box + extra impact hit + cav vulnerability:  377 pts


btw, if you wanted you could reduce their Courage to 13.  That would lower their base cost to 347pts.  It'd also make the above cost:
A)  367 pts
B)  339 pts
C)  359 pts


I'll be honest, I like Option C at Cge 14.  The hit boxes fits with the rest of the faction and could assuage your conscience on the Cavalry vulnerability thing.  The extra impact hit and Cge 14 will make these guys a real centerpiece unit of the faction.  Because face it, these guys are going to be like Trolls:  they're the cool shiney most people will want to play.  So let's not make them play like Trolls (i.e. suck).   ;D


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Speaking of which, I'm starting to like Jotunblut better as the faction ability name.

Just be aware that Scion uses that exact name for the special ability of the Norse Demigods.


Quote
Quote
Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points
I'm also struggling with this unit because they are just so darned expensive for what their combat ability allows.  I'm kicking the tires on an idea that reflects that they would fly onto the battlefield pre-game but remained grounded for the duration of the battle itself.  Something along the lines of the rules Skirmishers use for deployment.  Valkyries on steeds by definition fly so there should be some reflection of that in the unit.  I'm just really souring on the thought of a ~400 point unit that acts like a bunch of fearless Antonians.

Responding to the corrected version (which is quoted above):  Fearless Antonians are nothing to sneeze at!  But if you want to bring their cost down you could make them D:2/1, which brings them down to 332pts.  For the record, I'm actually okay with a 393pt flying unit , especially one that is Pow 6!  Other things you can do:

--Make them (6)6/5.  That brings their cost down to 371pts.

--Make them (5)6/5.  Brings their cost to 334.

--Some combo of the above.  (6)6/5 & D:2/1 = 313 pts.   (5)6/5 & D:2/1 = 282pts.

I'll be honest, I think they should stay at 6 dice so they get +2 dice when they charge in the Red.

btw, it seems like you priced in that they don't have a checkbox, but that's not noted there.