Poll

Which Mercenary Hoplite unit do you want with your Kickstarter pledge

Spartiates
2 (22.2%)
Thebans
6 (66.7%)
Athenians
0 (0%)
Corinthians
1 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: November 11, 2014, 01:34:38 PM

Author Topic: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit  (Read 5266 times)

BubblePig

  • Shoeless God of War
  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2153
  • Y'all are just hating on my steez.
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2014, 10:18:44 AM »
I went to the survey monkey site and there are no stats just this:
Please rank which Mercenary hoplite unit you'd like to see.
Spartans:  high Offensive Skill & Courage, but expensive (and vulnerable to arrows)
Thebans:  the "average but affordable" phalanx unit.
Corinthians:  high Toughness from their (expensive) heavy armor.
Athenians:  the militia levy phalanx unit that is cheap due to lower Offensive Skill

I was already upset at the idea that a potentially broken unit was going to find its way into the game despite wiser heads choosing another path, but now I am hopping mad.
 

Kevin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5086
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2014, 12:00:14 PM »
Sure, the new vote is designed to produce "This!  Is!  SPARTAAAAAA!!!!!" as the winner after the initial vote was going heavily the other way, but really it's no worse than what I did with the Wuxing mercenary, which basically went.

Quote
Pick one:
- Stone Monkeys
- Stone Monkeys
- Stone Monkeys
- Stone Monkeys and you're going to like it, b****es!  :P
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:04:29 PM by Kevin »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

BubblePig

  • Shoeless God of War
  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2153
  • Y'all are just hating on my steez.
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2014, 12:28:37 PM »
At least you owned up to it. The new poll is a travesty. The surveymonkey might as well look like this:

Please rank which Mercenary hoplite unit you'd like to see.
Spartans:  I was going to describe some features that distinguish them from other units, but let's face it, I had you at "Spartans." Wasn't 300 an awesome movie?
Other guys:  blah, blah, blah
More other guys:  c'mon now, focus. These guys have high Toughness, as if that matters.
Yet more other guys:  Are you still reading this? Why haven't you voted already?

Which honestly would not matter to me all that much if Spartans had something other than 6 off skill to distinguish them from the pack. 14 courage is fine, not being ponderous is a bit twitchy and maybe should have disqualified them from the list, but 6 off skill on a unit with 7 dice is really what put me over the edge. Giving Orc Marauders to every faction in the game is too much.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:52:35 PM by BubblePig »
 

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4486
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2014, 01:30:54 PM »
Quote
Sure, the new vote is designed to produce "This!  Is!  SPARTAAAAAA!!!!!" as the winner after the initial vote was going heavily the other way

Folks can choose to believe what they want, but I was frankly more than happy to do Thebans.  The artwork for Spartans is going to be really boring, and Thebans or Corinthians would be much more interesting.  I chose to do the second survey because gpman made the very valid point that its more fair to involve all 191 supporters of the kickstarter than it was to have the decision made by 10 people on the forum.  If that results in the more popular, but less interesting choice, then so be it.  I'd rather the majority of supporters are happy given that we just had to deliver some bad news.


I went to the survey monkey site and there are no stats

The majority of kickstarter supporters are not Battleground players.  The stats wouldn't have made sense to them, and it would have been a wall of text.  I might as well have cut & pasted the actual binary source code for all they would've been able to decipher.  Instead, I went with summing it up for them in a single sentence, like I would explain to to someone who was getting a demo.


Quote
I was already upset at the idea that a potentially broken unit was going to find its way into the game despite wiser heads choosing another path, but now I am hopping mad.

Well to be bluntly honest, you have no one to blame but yourself.  Greek Mercs have been in production since the summer of 2012.  I can count the number of session reports you've posted on the fingers of Jaime Lannister's right hand. 

Furthermore, having Spartiates be available to everyone was the very first thing we tested.  We found that having them available is useful, which is how it should be.  The mercenaries should be attractive choices for some factions.  But we found that they were not the be-all and end all, for a couple reasons.

1)  Being Mercenaries, you can't use faction specific cards on them, meaning that one-third of probably your best cards can't be played on them.  That matters quite a bit for a breakthrough unit to have 1/3 of the command cards nullified.  Sure you can opt to remove those cards from your deck, but that's an even greater liability to your army.

2)  Although they are 7 dice at skill 6, the Spartiates are only a mediocre D:2/2.  Now before you say "yeah but they have 6 Green boxes," I assure you that people will be surprised at how quickly damage racks up on this breakthrough unit, especially from ranged fire.  Yes they have Lock Shields, which is designed to help them, but as a Merc unit the Lock Shields ability costs an extra CA to use.

I understand that you may not have had the time and inclination to test out the Greek City-States, but then I ask that you please refrain from going full Chicken Little this late in the game.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 07:44:15 PM by Hannibal »

BubblePig

  • Shoeless God of War
  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2153
  • Y'all are just hating on my steez.
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2014, 08:35:51 PM »
Those are fair points. But I think mine are fair points, too. Of those four units, the one which I would have appreciated more time to playtest before printing is also the one which was sure fire going to get chosen by KS supporters. And to disregard the poll taken on this forum in favor of that poll sticks in my craw. I would much prefer to playtest a unit I am concerned about before it is printed than punch opponents in the face with it until it gets errata. As it is, it seems to me as if there might well be a faction limited primarily by its lack of reasonably priced breakthrough units which will now be frustratingly hard to beat. Maybe Umenzi or Wuxing.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 08:45:56 PM by BubblePig »
 

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4486
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2014, 11:30:02 PM »
And to disregard the poll taken on this forum in favor of that poll sticks in my craw.

I'll be honest, I don't see why it should.  I closed this poll in favor of the other one so that all supporters of the kickstarter could have input.  Everyone who voted here can go vote there.  I don't see why people on this forum should get special privilege over and above the other kickstarter supporters.

As I said before, I could care less which unit gets printed.  I only care that the majority of people are happy with that choice.


Quote
I would much prefer to playtest a unit I am concerned about before it is printed than punch opponents in the face with it until it gets errata.


Well, as I said before, I've spent over two years begging people to playtest the Greeks (and for that matter, Alexander, Persia, & Vlachold).  Those who chose not to participate aren't going to get a lot of sympathy from me at this point.


Quote
As it is, it seems to me as if there might well be a faction limited primarily by its lack of reasonably priced breakthrough units which will now be frustratingly hard to beat. Maybe Umenzi or Wuxing.

Wuxing has Jade Nobles.  A unit that is Off Skill 6 for only 2 pts more.  Yes, it has fewer Green boxes and attacks, but it has D:1/4, doesn't run, and can have faction specific cards played on it.

Umenzi is a closer example.  They have access to Chosen for 50 pts more.   Those extra 50pts get you:  -2 attacks, -1 Green box, +1 Pow, +1 Def, +1 Yellow box, same Courage, a very good faction ability for 1 CA, and the opportunity to use faction specific cards on the unit.  Which is better?  Well, that's up for debate, but I don't think there's a clear choice at all.  Obviously, if you're face Wood Elves, the Spartans bring a little more value for the beatdown they'll apply.  But that's the point.  Mercenaries are supposed to be useful to certain factions.  Otherwise, why should Chad spend the money on a product that people won't use?

RushAss

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3781
  • Eat your beets - Recycle!
    • My Facebook.  Where you can see my, uh... face.
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 11:39:05 AM »
The correct answer is Chosen.  What. I forget the question?  Sure I did but it doesn't matter.  Chosen are just flat out awesome no matter what the situation.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

I voted for the Thebans but in all honesty I won't cry if the Spartans made the grade.  I mean, this is all tasty good gravy at this point.
"Art as expression, not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations"
-Rush, Natural Science

Kevin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5086
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 11:48:02 AM »
Quote
Wuxing has Jade Nobles.  A unit that is Off Skill 6 for only 2 pts more.  Yes, it has fewer Green boxes and attacks, but it has D:1/4, doesn't run, and can have faction specific cards played on it.

Woah.  The Jade Nobles get 5 dice (fine, plus Reliable, which makes them a sliver worse than 6 dice), not 7.   And no spear bonus for extra pain on big guys & cavalry.  I'd call the Jade Nobles somewhat tanky/underpowered for their point cost. 

If you want cheap breakthrough units, much better candidates are the Greatswordsmen (drawback:  too damn slow) at 271, the Highblood Duskblades at 299, and the Orc Axemen at 300, all at (5) 6/6, which is just a hair worse than (7) 6/5.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill

NegativeZer0

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2014, 01:06:19 PM »
I personalty would have sent them here to vote.

Make them create an account and get involved with the discussion.

But yes KS backers deserve a vote.

I voted for thebans on both but alas "This!  Is!  SPARTAAAAAA!!!!!"
I mean come on we all know thebans had no chance of winning, and it has nothing to do with Hannibal "skewing" results with his descriptions.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 01:20:44 PM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4486
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2014, 01:13:55 PM »
Quote
Wuxing has Jade Nobles.  A unit that is Off Skill 6 for only 2 pts more.  Yes, it has fewer Green boxes and attacks, but it has D:1/4, doesn't run, and can have faction specific cards played on it.

Woah.  The Jade Nobles get 5 dice (fine, plus Reliable, which makes them a sliver worse than 6 dice), not 7.   And no spear bonus for extra pain on big guys & cavalry.  I'd call the Jade Nobles somewhat tanky/underpowered for their point cost.  

I did mention that Jade Nobles get fewer dice.  I hadn't thought of Reliable, which closes that gap a little bit.  I'll bow to your knowledge with the faction as to whether Jade Nobles are underpowered, but the point that he made was that Spartans gave Off Skill 6 to factions that didn't have access to it, and listed Wuxing as one of those factions.  My example was demonstrating that Wuxing did have access to a Skill 6 unit.  Obviously the two units are different beyond that, which is the point:  they are different tools.

Chad_YMG

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2348
    • Your Move Games
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2014, 06:41:57 AM »
I personalty would have sent them here to vote.

Make them create an account and get involved with the discussion.

But yes KS backers deserve a vote.

My view is that this reward is primarily a KS reward to make up for us having missed our deadline. I definitely would not have agreed with a proposal to make them register on our site in order to vote.
David Humphrey está todavía en la Colina 217.
      - From Spanish translation of Hill 218 rules

NegativeZer0

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2014, 01:50:45 PM »
I personalty would have sent them here to vote.

Make them create an account and get involved with the discussion.

But yes KS backers deserve a vote.

My view is that this reward is primarily a KS reward to make up for us having missed our deadline. I definitely would not have agreed with a proposal to make them register on our site in order to vote.

Was just my opinion can certainly understand not wanting to do it that way.  I just want to see come of these 100-150 ish new people to battleground actually visit the forums.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 04:08:12 PM by NegativeZer0 »
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4486
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2014, 01:57:13 PM »
I understand that sentiment, but I'd rather make it easy for them to give their input.  Don't want them to feel like this is a bait and switch to "trick" them into signing up.  (It's not tricking them, of course, but some people might feel that way)


And besides....most of these people are new to the game.  Do we really want a couple hundred "Man, I'd really love to play if YMG could send me stuff now" posts?   ;D

NegativeZer0

  • Playtester
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2014, 04:06:28 PM »
Do we really want a couple hundred "Man, I'd really love to play if YMG could send me stuff now" posts?   ;D

That's what they "pay" you admins for  :D
Quote from: Chad_YMG
Cards are definitely good to have, but I like punching my opponent in the face, too!

Hannibal

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4486
Re: Kickstarter Freebie: Mercenary Hoplite Unit
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2014, 07:20:04 PM »
And if you don't like the service, you're entitled to a full refund!   ;D