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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => House Rules, Unofficial Variants and Proposals => Topic started by: gornhorror on July 21, 2014, 11:55:18 AM

Title: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 21, 2014, 11:55:18 AM
What about this for the Oathbound command card.

Up to 3 of your units get +2 courage for the remainder of this turn.

OR

Re-roll a failed courage check for one of your units.  This unit receives a bonus to it's courage equal to the number of units your opponent currently out-numbers you by.



This gives it a little boost and also goes along with the thematic aspect of the card.  Something like the word "Oathbound" should translate into something better than a crappy courage card.  Especially when you compare it to some of the other ones out there.  Since the High Elves are almost always out numbered, this bonus will be a decent one when they need it the most.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on July 21, 2014, 04:23:51 PM
Considering that using Oathbound as a reroll with no bonus was considered too strong last year, I'm not sure why Oathbound as a reroll with sometimes a bonus will fly.  But YMMV.

For what it's worth, I still plan to use Oathbound as a pre-roll autopass.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 21, 2014, 07:27:11 PM
It wasn't considered too strong by me.   ;D   ....and I play the faction all the time.   Even if it was like the Orc, "I kill you meself" card it would be ok.    Taking a damage point, or some other drawback, to keep the engagement, would be something to consider for Oathbound also.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gull2112 on July 22, 2014, 11:03:30 AM
The problem as I see it is not that there are not potential tweaks to the HE, but that there is no need to errata this deck. You jersey boys play so often that you're hypersensitive to the slightest nuance. The more a game is errata-ed, the more it is perceived as flawed by newbies. You should just homerule such things and when the deck needs to be reprinted we can revisit some of these tweaks.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 22, 2014, 11:47:53 AM
We do house rule these things from time to time.  In fact, this topic was posted in the...


...wait for it...

House Rules, Unofficial Variants and Proposals thread

 ;)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gull2112 on July 22, 2014, 12:52:26 PM
Whoops, my bad. I thought we were in the "Gornhorror's marching orders for Chad" thread.  :D
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 22, 2014, 01:02:50 PM
Here's another idea for Oath-bound.


Each of your units get +2 courage of the remainder of the turn.

OR

Play on one of your units that has just failed a rout check.  This unit still suffers the free attacks but keeps it's facing and disengages up to 1.25" after combat.


Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 22, 2014, 02:54:57 PM
Considering that using Oathbound as a reroll with no bonus was considered too strong last year, I'm not sure why Oathbound as a reroll with sometimes a bonus will fly.  But YMMV.

For what it's worth, I still plan to use Oathbound as a pre-roll autopass.

Do you still get the option of having your units gain +2 courage if you don't play it as an auto-pass?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on July 22, 2014, 04:08:47 PM
Quote
Quote
For what it's worth, I still plan to use Oathbound as a pre-roll autopass.
Do you still get the option of having your units gain +2 courage if you don't play it as an auto-pass?

Aye.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 22, 2014, 04:54:45 PM
Aye.
OK, thanks.  I actually prefer that one.  For one thing it's simple.  For the other, the flavor fits.  For the auto-pass option I get this imagery:

"You!  Yes YOU!  You WILL hold!  There is no other option!  I BIND YOU TO YOUR OATH!"
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gull2112 on July 22, 2014, 09:37:02 PM
Or maybe the dead turn green, get back up, and float around with some Returned King.

Whether or not these variations are house-ruled in, I like their flavor and hope they get incorporated in some future faction's faction specific deck.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 23, 2014, 02:50:06 PM
I still say that a courage re-roll is in order for this faction. You need a way to have a good chance to save a unit when that 14-18 comes up.  If Oath-bound was in an army where there were tons of expendable units(i.e. Historicals, Dark Elves, Umenzi, etc), I'd say ok.  But obviously it's not.  I've played them enough to know.  A 13 courage around the horn seems nice, but they still are making their first rout check at a 12.  (Except for Celestial Guard at a 13 and Cygnets at an 11, buy hey, who plays Cygnets)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Dave-SWA on July 23, 2014, 10:06:15 PM
Jeez...  The faction with the highest average courage in the game is that faction that least needs a courage re-roll card.

Brook, please look at it from the perspective of the guy playing against the High Elves.

The HE units are less numerous, yes, but they are almost always higher quality, and they have above-average courage.

That guy needs a hope of a breakthrough somewhere.

Every faction needs a few weaknesses for balance.  Otherwise they are unbeatable, and thus no fun to play against.



Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 24, 2014, 05:15:29 PM
Where are the weaknesses in the historical factions?  The Alexander faction has a ton of command cards that boost courage.  Not to mention some units with a base 13 courage also.  Now throw in the faction ability of Inspiration which gives a +1 courage while it's checked and it's seems that real courage of that faction is pretty darn  good.   Oh, and don't forget about the command card, We Few, which allows a reroll at a +1 courage(or better if it's engaged with more than one unit).  So what if the High Elves have overall better units.  It doesn't do them any good whatsoever if the opposing armies units never rout.   A good player with 10 so so quality units against a player with 7 quality units still has an advantage in this game.  Especially if he has courage bailouts and is pinching his opponent.  I'm just trying to even this score up. 

It's not because I'm an ELF LOVER as you have said in the past. :)

It's just because those are the factions that I play the most and I've noticed where they are weak, and where I think they are TOO weak. 

 

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on July 24, 2014, 06:03:14 PM
Every faction needs a few weaknesses for balance.  Otherwise they are unbeatable, and thus no fun to play against.

Preach on, brutha man!  



Where are the weaknesses in the historical factions?  The Alexander faction has a ton of command cards that boost courage.

Well, let's see...just going with Alexander:

--No 187pt Battle Squad type unit.
--No Maneuver Mastery or Sprint.
--No beefy (5)6/6 infantry unit.
--No affordable baseline, 200pt unit.
--No decent unit that can go into terrain.
--Ponderous rule on most of its line infantry.
--Only one Pow 6 unit in the faction.
--Lots of high cost units that reduce the size of your army.
--D:1/2 on its best cavalry unit.
--Toughness 1 on most of its infantry units, making them vulnerable to Accuracy (which has no counter) and Flanking (which you felt unfairly punished Def Skill factions).

But yeah, other than that, this historical faction has no real weaknesses.


Quote
The Alexander faction has a ton of command cards that boost courage.  

Most of the courage boosting cards are +1 Cge.


Quote
Not to mention some units with a base 13 courage also.  

4 out of 12.  Vs High Elves' 14 out of 15.  (Okay, technically, it's 13 out of 15, because the Celestial Guard don't have Cge 13...)


Quote
Now throw in the faction ability of Inspiration which gives a +1 courage while it's checked and it's seems that real courage of that faction is pretty darn  good.  

Yes...Inspiration is pretty darn good.  +1 Cge for 1 CA is pretty darn good.  I mean, if there was a High Elf card that gave +2 Courage for 1 Command Action, I imagine you'd have to conclude that it's pretty darn double good...?


Quote
Oh, and don't forget about the command card, We Few, which allows a reroll at a +1 courage(or better if it's engaged with more than one unit).  

Yes, that's true.  So when those D:3/1 Foot Companions or D:1/2 Companion Cavalry get pinched, We Few will give them a better bonus because they're engaged with two opponents.  Who are pinching them.


Quote
A good player with 10 so so quality units against a player with 7 quality units still has an advantage in this game.  

Except that those units won't be the same quality.  10 or so quality units in a 2000pt game means an average cost of 200pts per unit.  7 quality units means an average cost of 285pts per unit.  The High Elves are quite capable in holding off the extra units on the flank while achieving a breakthrough in the middle.  Especially now that Flank from Front is gone.



At the end of the day, this is a house rule section.  So, hey, knock yourself out.  Whatever you can convince Marcus & Tim & the others too, more power to ya, brother.  But I agree with Dave that High Elves don't need the help, so this sort of idea would have to stay firmly in the house rules.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 25, 2014, 04:07:37 PM
We'll just have to see how these two factions rip though the competition and meet in the finals at tournaments.  Just like Rome and Carthage did, when I said that Pila was too good for the points. 

I'm sorry, but 8 hit dice with a army ability that allows you to get an additional 2 hit dice with SIX green boxes is stronger than the 270ish point total that the Foot companions have.   I see that unit causing rout checks on the first turn and not TAKING one until turn 4 or 5 of the engagement.  Then to make matters worse, it will have a +1 courage if inspiration is checked again and either a courage buff from a command card or a courage reroll with "We Few". 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on July 25, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
Quote
I'm sorry, but 8 hit dice with a army ability that allows you to get an additional 2 hit dice with SIX green boxes is stronger than the 270ish point total that the Foot companions have.

Send those 10 dice up against Orc Spearmen and you'll do 1-2 damage.  The Foot Companions will win (because if you disregard their negatives they have a cost of over 300pts), but it'll take them 4 turns to do it on average.  Far from taking a check on the first turn.

Put the FCs against comparably priced HE Swordsmen, and the FCs lose.  Especially when you give the HE Swordsmen a Red command card to counteract the CA you just gave the FCs.  (And the HE Swordsmen end up costing 5% less in this situation)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 27, 2014, 11:38:39 PM
Here's an alternative that we came up with on Friday night when we played.

Oathbound:

Play Oathbound when one or more of your units need to take a courage check.

If played on only one unit, this unit gets +3 courage for the turn.

If played on two units, both units get +2 courage for the turn.

If played on more than two units, they all get +1 courage for the turn.

or this one that I just thought of:

Oathbound:

Play of one or more units that are making a courage check this turn.

Each unit may roll it's rout check at a +2 courage or automatically pass that rout check and get (-3) 0/0 on it's next attack.







Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 28, 2014, 09:38:39 AM
Oathbound:

Play Oathbound when one or more of your units need to take a courage check.

If played on only one unit, this unit gets +3 courage for the turn.

If played on two units, both units get +2 courage for the turn.

If played on more than two units, they all get +1 courage for the turn.

You know, we could just ride with this:

Play Oathbound during a courage phase.
If played on only one unit, this unit gets +3 courage for the turn.
If played on multiple units, both units get +2 courage for the turn.

So basically it's just 1 better when on a single unit and it's the same otherwise.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gull2112 on July 28, 2014, 10:24:43 PM
This multiple unit discussion makes me think of a new ability for a faction. Some faction that functions better when its units are adjacent. Thinking of weak creatures like goblins that feel safer when not alone.
Keyword: Group. Any units that are adjacent to each other are part of a group. Certain Command Cards have the Group keyword and when played on a card effect all cards that are part of its group.

One of the faction cards could be one that if played simultaneously with any non-faction card gave it the group Keyword.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Karasu on July 30, 2014, 05:38:31 AM
Kind of like how Umenzi get bonuses from Leadership?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 30, 2014, 01:24:39 PM
Here's yet another few ideas. 

Oathbound:

Play during the movement and command phase:

This unit receives one extra-damage when charging or charged but passes all further courage/rout checks this engagement.

OR

Oathbound:

Play when one of your units fails a rout check.  Instead of routing this unit remains engaged and receives one extra damage during the post rout free attacks.

OR

Oathbound:

Choose one:

All of your units get +2 courage for the turn

One of your units gets +4 courage for the turn.


   

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 19, 2014, 01:11:16 PM
Just thought of another idea for Oathbound.

Play this card during the movement and command phase.  This unit passes all fear checks and gets (+1) +0/+0 for the turn.

Or

Play this card when one of your units routs.  This unit suffers the post rout attacks but does not disengage and does not change it's facing.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 19, 2014, 02:11:52 PM
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14785752389_64676317fd.jpg)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 19, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14785752389_64676317fd.jpg)

Yeah, yeah, yeah............I know.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on March 06, 2015, 03:34:59 PM
Spinoff of this topic has been moved to Elves, Hill Giants, and more.

http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,10147.0.html
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 26, 2015, 09:22:19 PM
Well, here is the latest incarnation of Oathbound.

I really like this one and I will be playing it this way for a while to see how it goes.

Oathbound:Play whenever one of your units fails a rout/courage check.   Re-roll the check at +2 courage.  If the second roll succeeds, mark off red box farthest to the right.  This damage cannot force another courage check.




Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gull2112 on August 26, 2015, 09:38:51 PM
Just thought of another idea for Oathbound.

Play this card during the movement and command phase.  This unit passes all fear checks and gets (+1) +0/+0 for the turn.

Or

Play this card when one of your units routs.  This unit suffers the post rout attacks but does not disengage and does not change it's facing.
I am not familiar enough with Oathbound to grok the ramifications of this change, but I like the dynamic of marking off from the right. I was using this for poison damage in a faction I was working on. I like how it is not threatening unitl all of a sudden, POOF, your unit is gone.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 26, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Seems a bit strong.  98% as effective as the excellent I Kill You Meself, but you're losing a red box rather than a red-or-yellow box.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 27, 2015, 09:43:04 AM
Seems a bit strong.  98% as effective as the excellent I Kill You Meself, but you're losing a red box rather than a red-or-yellow box.
If that's the case, it could be fixed in one of 2 ways.

1 - Make the re roll at a +1 courage
2 - Forget about having to specifically mark off a red box, just make it damage like IKYM

So in essence, the card becomes like a combination of Cold Blooded and IKYM.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 27, 2015, 10:50:54 AM
From a pure game mechanic point of view, I like option 1.  More creative.

Of course, "I Kill You Meself" has the flavor of the Boss Orc killing the first (and maybe second) Orc/Goblin to run.  "Ordered Retreat" involves most of the Half-Orcs/Wildmen moving back while a few sacrifice themselves as rearguard to buy their comrades time.

What's the flavor justification for a number of High Elves dying?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 27, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
My thinking is that a few of the High Elves still run off, but the bulk of the unit remains.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 27, 2015, 12:32:13 PM
Actually, that's pretty good.  Especially since if a few cowards run off the ones who remain are a bit braver.

Play with it and if it looks good we can try it at Championship 2016.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 27, 2015, 11:54:52 PM
My thinking is that a few of the High Elves still run off, but the bulk of the unit remains.

What I was thinking was that a few warriors run in and sacrifice themselves to regain a foothold in the fight because they are Oathbound to complete the task and failure is not an option.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: GoIndy on August 28, 2015, 09:16:29 AM
I'm not certain this is any better than the normal Oathbound card, chuckle.  I can remember playing Marcus and he had 3 rout checks, and I thought...this Oathbound card is complete bullshit.  Of course, now he'd get to play it reactively, but still.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 28, 2015, 12:05:05 PM
I'm not certain this is any better than the normal Oathbound card, chuckle.  I can remember playing Marcus and he had 3 rout checks, and I thought...this Oathbound card is complete bullshit.  Of course, now he'd get to play it reactively, but still.

Complete bullshit as in it's too powerful?  Or complete bullshit as in it totally sucks....
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 28, 2015, 12:41:36 PM
He means "too powerful," having hit the one situation (3+ simultaneous, important rout checks) where Oathbound is pretty good.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 28, 2015, 01:19:07 PM
Yeah.....just wasn't sure.  But that's what I was leaning towards....but with Tim, you just never know... ::)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 28, 2015, 01:34:53 PM
He means "too powerful," having hit the one situation (3+ simultaneous, important rout checks) where Oathbound is pretty good.

There's actually another situation.  Your High Elven unit gets pinched and you really want it to stay there, so you play Oathbound for the +2 courage and you pass.  Your High Elven unit takes it's beating and has to roll another courage check because it got pounded into the red/yellow.  Since Oathbound gives you the +2 courage for the turn, you still get the +2 courage for that check as well.  I'd call that pretty good.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on August 28, 2015, 01:52:15 PM
Yup.  Its why I've been such a strong opponent of making any official changes to Oathbound.  One thing that has come out of this campaign is that local players have seen the potential for how nasty High Elves would be if they got an auto-pass or a reroll.  Now of course nothing conclusive can be drawn from a campaign like Empires (where game balance is huddled in a corning, sobbing and gently rocking back & forth), but they're seeing the potential for how nasty they can be.  Of course, nobody here spends points on frivolous things like "ranged fire" and so I can understand that if someone likes to light a couple hundred points on fire by taking HE bowmen, he'd prefer there be something to balance out that self-imposed handicap.

(I hope that last sentence came across as light-hearted as is was intended.  If not, post-facto trigger warning!)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 28, 2015, 04:25:13 PM
Yup.  Its why I've been such a strong opponent of making any official changes to Oathbound.  One thing that has come out of this campaign is that local players have seen the potential for how nasty High Elves would be if they got an auto-pass or a reroll.  Now of course nothing conclusive can be drawn from a campaign like Empires (where game balance is huddled in a corning, sobbing and gently rocking back & forth), but they're seeing the potential for how nasty they can be.  Of course, nobody here spends points on frivolous things like "ranged fire" and so I can understand that if someone likes to light a couple hundred points on fire by taking HE bowmen, he'd prefer there be something to balance out that self-imposed handicap.

(I hope that last sentence came across as light-hearted as is was intended.  If not, post-facto trigger warning!)

I think that reactive courage cards are even nastier in factions with many cheap units.  What I've noticed is that when I'm playing High Elves and I'm outnumbered (almost always) it's really hard to win if I can't even get a scrub unit to fail a rout check so I can start to even the score a bit.  My opinion is that reactive courage cards are even more needed in factions like the High Elves where failing even one rout check is usually catastrophic.  

Now my new idea is a reroll, but it's not an autopass like IKYM AND you take a point of damage.  So it's not full-proof.

My comments in the session reports where I bitch that High Elves are loosing all of their battles, you can take them with a grain of salt.  I know the player is inexperienced and the added rules throw everything off balance.  It would be nice if they won a match or two though!!!!:)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 30, 2015, 07:57:11 PM
I was just looking at the wording that Marcus used for my new idea for Oathbound and I think it may need to be changed a bit.  Not drastically however.

This is what he said:

Quote
Play whenever one of your units fails a rout/courage check.   Reroll the check at +1 courage.  If the second roll succeeds, mark off 1 red box.  This damage cannot force another courage check.
Quote


I think it should be:

Oathbound: You may play Oathbound whenever one of your units fails a courage/rout check.  Mark off one red health box and re-roll the check at a +2.  The marked box can not force another rout check.

I think the damage should be caused whether the check is passed or not.  It's the brave contingent of High Elf warriors that are rushing in to sacrifice themselves for the greater good so that their comrades might have a chance to fight on.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gull2112 on August 30, 2015, 10:00:31 PM
Quote
I think the damage should be caused whether the check is passed or not.  It's the brave contingent of High Elf warriors that are rushing in to sacrifice themselves for the greater good so that their comrades might have a chance to fight on.

I agree with you here, but with a different concept of what's happening. Troops rout to avoid death. Oathbound is a way of saying, "we're going to hold on a little longer" and by virtue of the battlebrothers who sacrifice their lives in so doing, there is a better chance that the death inspired rest will hang in there.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Zelc on August 31, 2015, 09:46:00 AM
I'm not a huge fan of the 1 red box drawback.  It only makes a difference if your unit takes total HP - 1 damage.

Can I make a crazy suggestion?  Give them I Kill You Meself instead.  It's both better and worse than the current suggestion:

If you still think I Kill You Meself is too strong in High Elves, make it so you can't play it on a unit in the red (or units in the red only get a reroll).

Besides, outside of Mithril, the High Elf cards really aren't that strong.  Giving them a stronger card isn't going to make their command deck nuts.


Example text:
Play after one of your units fails a Courage check. Deal 1 damage to that unit. This damage does not cause additional rout checks.
If that unit is in the red (after taking the 1 damage), reroll the Courage check.  Otherwise, it passes the Courage check instead.

Or alternatively:
Play after one of your units fails a Courage check.
If that unit is in the red, reroll the Courage check.  Otherwise, it passes the Courage check instead, and deal 1 damage to that unit (this damage does not cause additional rout checks).
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 31, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
I'm not a huge fan of the 1 red box drawback.  It only makes a difference if your unit takes total HP - 1 damage.

Can I make a crazy suggestion?  Give them I Kill You Meself instead.  It's both better and worse than the current suggestion:
  • It's worse because unlike Orcs, High Elves have higher Courage to begin with.  They don't get as much benefit from the "autopass" courage vs. the reroll + a bonus.  Also, High Elves have higher stats and fewer yellow boxes than Orcs, so 1 damage is a larger penalty. Unlike marking off a red box, marking off 1 damage puts the unit closer to a red check.
  • It's better because there's still a 1 in 10 chance of failing a check at 14 Courage, and again the whole point of this change is to reduce the variance of High Elves.

If you still think I Kill You Meself is too strong in High Elves, make it so you can't play it on a unit in the red (or units in the red only get a reroll).

Besides, outside of Mithril, the High Elf cards really aren't that strong.  Giving them a stronger card isn't going to make their command deck nuts.


Example text:
Play after one of your units fails a Courage check. Deal 1 damage to that unit. This damage does not cause additional rout checks.
If that unit is in the red (after taking the 1 damage), reroll the Courage check.  Otherwise, it passes the Courage check instead.

Or alternatively:
Play after one of your units fails a Courage check.
If that unit is in the red, reroll the Courage check.  Otherwise, it passes the Courage check instead, and deal 1 damage to that unit (this damage does not cause additional rout checks).


My idea was to make it a bit different that IKYM.  However, if it's found to be not strong enough in it's current form, I'm willing to try out your second idea listed here.

I agree with you about the High Elf command cards.  Mithril is great but the rest of them are meh.   The Subtle Mastery card should be make one of your "to damage" rolls a 1.  It would make more sense in this army.  That being said, I'll be happy if the new Oathbound card idea works out.  That's the one that I feel is most needed.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 31, 2015, 12:37:35 PM
As a slight aside, I find Attack Storm to be a kickass card from time to time.  And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on August 31, 2015, 12:53:17 PM
As a slight aside, I find Attack Storm to be a kickass card from time to time.  And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
:o
*looking for the 'like' button*
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Zelc on August 31, 2015, 01:17:28 PM
I know command card diversity is nice, but it won't be the first time we've reprinted cards with different names.  Also IKYM is totally different in Orc vs. in High Elves, as I mentioned.

I actually think giving High Elves IKYM is more conservative than giving them the reroll +2 with the 1 red box drawback.  The damage from IKYM is more likely to matter, and reroll +2 only leaves a 10% chance of failing the rout check in the yellow.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 31, 2015, 02:16:17 PM
Quote
I know command card diversity is nice, but it won't be the first time we've reprinted cards with different names.

A fact I'd rather forget.  I'll take a slightly-off-optimal card if it means avoiding more repetition.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 31, 2015, 03:02:20 PM
I know command card diversity is nice, but it won't be the first time we've reprinted cards with different names.  Also IKYM is totally different in Orc vs. in High Elves, as I mentioned.

I actually think giving High Elves IKYM is more conservative than giving them the reroll +2 with the 1 red box drawback.  The damage from IKYM is more likely to matter, and reroll +2 only leaves a 10% chance of failing the rout check in the yellow.

I wouldn't want another IKYM with a different name.  I think just giving the HE a reactive courage card is enough.  It doesn't have to be an auto-pass.   
 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 31, 2015, 03:08:12 PM
As a slight aside, I find Attack Storm to be a kickass card from time to time.  And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

It's cool that you can play Attack storm AND a command card, but that's about where the kickass-ness ends.....

+1 hit dice, in and of itself, is ok.

What I had suggested in the past was to divide +3 hit dice any way you choose.

I.E.

One unit gets +3 dice, 2 units get +2 and +1 hit dice respectively, or 3 units get +1 hit dice.



Now that would be a good command card.

I find Seize the Moment from the Dark Elves a vastly superior card.  That is my justification for wanting Attack Storm to be stronger.  
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on August 31, 2015, 03:32:23 PM
Attack Storm would be a mediocre card for most factions, but High Elves' dice are so good it's quite nice.  Your extra dice are nearly always 6/6 or better (or 6/5 in a situational fight where it still rocks).
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 31, 2015, 03:49:19 PM
Eh, I don't know.....I'm just not as excited about it as I used to be.  Perhaps at a time where the power charge was still in effect........ON as scale of 1-10.  I give it a 6.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 31, 2015, 03:51:32 PM
Exactly what Kevin said.  And if a card is a 6 on a scale of 1-10 then it's probably just fine, right?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 31, 2015, 04:17:26 PM
Yeah, it's probably fine.  It's definitely not overpowered.  Sure if you take Elderblades, you are adding +1 hit dice to a base 6/6 offensive profile, which is always a good thing.  I'm just saying that for me to feel great about the card I would of made it like this:

Attack Storm:  Give one of your units +2 dice, and another one of your units +1 dice. Or something to that effect.

This way it approaches the power level of Seize the Moment without the movement buff.

Just so everybody knows, I don't think AS NEEDS to be changed at all.  I'm just saying, if I could change it, I would make it a little more powerful.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on August 31, 2015, 04:21:01 PM
I think the card still rocks in certain situations. being able to put a might and AS on a celestial guard and/or a knights and/or a ... is pretty brutal. not wolfriders carbomb brutal, but still brutal nonetheless
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on August 31, 2015, 04:28:49 PM
The reason I think AS is not as impressive as it would otherwise be much of the time is because with the dominant HE tactic they are trying to delay on so many fights that probably they only care about buffing the attack stat in 2 places at best. But I would hesitate to try and improve a command card for the dominant tactic. To keep the game replayable and fun as possible, I would go the opposite direction and try to improve a command card for non dominant tactics, so long as it doesn't suck major poopiness otherwise. And in that regard I think AS is about as good a card as you could hope for.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 15, 2016, 04:23:18 PM
Here's a new idea I have for Oathbound.  It's not a re-roll, but it's a good bonus with a horrible result if you fail.  It definitely would make for more interesting games.   

Oathbound:  Play on a unit during any movement and command phase.  Put an Oath counter on 1 or 2 of your units.  Whenever this unit has to make a courage check, you may remove the counter to give this unit +4 courage.  If the unit fails the check, it is destroyed.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 15, 2016, 04:32:12 PM
Seems sorta the opposite of the "Oathbound" theme of the card.

What about all units get +2 Cge this turn and D:+1/+1 against any Free Strikes this turn.

That would be very "We refuse to be destroyed because we're bound by our Oath to defend this land" kind of thing.  So the unit would stay in the game but a rout would still create a hole in the HE line (which is the primary issue I have with any reroll).
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 17, 2016, 02:11:17 PM
What about this for the Oathbound card

Oathbound:  You may play this card after one of your units fails a rout check.  Instead of routing your unit remains engaged but the opposing unit still gets it's post rout free attacks. 


 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 17, 2016, 03:37:15 PM
My objection to that idea is that the card would do exactly what I don't want it to do:  keep from blowing a hole in the HE line.  Anything that keeps the HE line intact (i.e. a reroll or an autopass) makes it too good IMO.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 19, 2016, 07:20:47 PM
Fiddling with my cards today and came up with this.


Oathbound:  You may play this card whenever any one of your units rout.  Target unit gets +2/+0 during the post rout free attacks.  After the post rout movement reform that unit and give it the close standing order. 


Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 20, 2016, 11:32:15 AM
Fiddling with my cards today and came up with this.


Oathbound:  You may play this card whenever any one of your units rout.  Target unit gets +2/+0 during the post rout free attacks.  After the post rout movement reform that unit and give it the close standing order. 

IMO, we're now back to too good.  The auto-rally to close makes the card too good, IMO.  Half the time you can contain that breakthrough.

Playing off the Mithril type card it could be:  Play during any Courage phase.  All of your units gain +2 Cge that turn and negate 1 point of damage when attacked during Free Strikes.

That's a pretty good card for preserving units that rout, but still not preventing that breakthrough that balances High Elves.  The upside is that if you blow a check with Knights or some other pricey unit, there's a pretty good chance you'll be able to keep them in the fight.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 20, 2016, 12:20:28 PM
What I was thinking is that with my new idea, if a high elf unit routs on it's turn, the opposing unit can still pinch if it wants to.  So the fact that it is set back to close makes it too powerful?  How about this then?  What if the unit just reforms but when it routs it gets the bonus and routs at a minimum of 5".

So it would be:

Oathbound: You may play this card on any one of your units when it fails a rout check.  Give this unit +2/+0 for the post rout free attacks.  Then move it a minimum of 5" and reform it.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 20, 2016, 12:28:55 PM
Or maybe we could combine mine and what you said.

Oathbound:  You may play this on one of your units when it routs.  Target unit negates one point of damage during free strikes, routs a minimum of 5" and reforms at end of turn.  The damage prevention aspect and not getting a defensive bonus makes it a bit different from the Wolfkin, Wolfpack ability.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 20, 2016, 01:44:08 PM
What I was thinking is that with my new idea, if a high elf unit routs on it's turn, the opposing unit can still pinch if it wants to.  So the fact that it is set back to close makes it too powerful?  How about this then?  What if the unit just reforms but when it routs it gets the bonus and routs at a minimum of 5".

My point is that I would prefer to keep the fact that no matter the turn the HE unit routs, the HE player can't prevent a hole in the line.  That's what I'd like to preserve.

What I am sympathetic to is the fact that if you take a Knight unit or an EB Sword and that unit blows its Cge 13 check, you basically have your heavy hitter out of the game.  Because now you've lost your offensive ability and are left with Battle Squads getting beat down.  (In reality you probably have 2-3 heavy hitters, but yeah it sucks to have even one of your beat stick units effectively out of the game).

If somebody routs a Battle Squad unit and creates a hole in the HE line, I'm okay with that.  It's a built in weakness of the faction, that should be retained.


Oathbound:  You may play this on one of your units when it routs.  Target unit negates one point of damage during free strikes, routs a minimum of 5" and reforms at end of turn.  The damage prevention aspect and not getting a defensive bonus makes it a bit different from the Wolfkin, Wolfpack ability.

I'm not seeing what the 5" move does to that effect, though?

But yeah the idea behind the damage prevention is that seems like more of the HE "thing" than the Wolfkin rout.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 20, 2016, 02:16:40 PM
What I was thinking with the 5" move is that the HE line units have the ability to Sprint and they would get it for free when they rout with the aid of the card.  This would prevent them from getting engaged on the opponents turn unless they were engaged with a unit that moved 5" or more.  Also, with the proposed idea, the routing HE elf unit is somewhat preserved because of the damage prevention (if it survives) but the opponent can still pinch another unit because the hole in the line is still there.

I guess what I'm saying is that when a High Elf unit routs it hauls ass.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 20, 2016, 03:17:00 PM
What I was thinking with the 5" move is that the HE line units have the ability to Sprint and they would get it for free when they rout with the aid of the card.  This would prevent them from getting engaged on the opponents turn unless they were engaged with a unit that moved 5" or more.  Also, with the proposed idea, the routing HE elf unit is somewhat preserved because of the damage prevention (if it survives) but the opponent can still pinch another unit because the hole in the line is still there.

I guess what I'm saying is that when a High Elf unit routs it hauls ass.  However, in the case of Oathbound it want's to get back in the fight, hence the reform.  Giving 3.5" units a 5" rout just gives them options and mitigates the devastation of a rout in a faction that can't afford as much as others.  Perhaps, HE have been fighting for so long(long life spans) that they have a decent "plan B" if things aren't going well.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 20, 2016, 04:04:03 PM
I get your theme justification, I just don't think it's right in terms of balance.  I don't see why the opponent shouldn't be able to destroy that routing HE Celestial Guard if they want.  That's no different than any other routing unit.  That being said, if he wants to do that, I'm okay with it at the moment because it means that unit is out of the game for at least a few turns:  it destroys the routing unit, then sits there on the HE turn, then reforms to come back to the line, then sits there during the HE turn, then can pinch 4 full combat rounds later.  If the enemy wants to forgo pinching for 4 combat rounds, then that's fine IMO.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 22, 2016, 01:44:40 PM
I get your theme justification, I just don't think it's right in terms of balance.  I don't see why the opponent shouldn't be able to destroy that routing HE Celestial Guard if they want.  That's no different than any other routing unit.  That being said, if he wants to do that, I'm okay with it at the moment because it means that unit is out of the game for at least a few turns:  it destroys the routing unit, then sits there on the HE turn, then reforms to come back to the line, then sits there during the HE turn, then can pinch 4 full combat rounds later.  If the enemy wants to forgo pinching for 4 combat rounds, then that's fine IMO.

That's what command cards do right?  They alter what would normally happen.  In the case of a reroll, the unit has already failed it's rout check and should of routed but the card saved them.  I don't see any difference with a card that gives a unit a different kind of help when they rout.

In my example, if the HE unit routs, they use their evade skill to avoid damage, then run away at their max speed (which is a sprint at 5" because the 3.5" units have that capability), then turn around and reform.  This at least gives the unit that failed some options to get back in the fight because they are "OATHBOUND" to continue. 

It's not quite a courage re-roll which will most likely keep the unit fighting without running away.  The opponent also gets an option to start pinching the line, so there is some reward.  However, the high elf unit if he uses a command action can most likely pinch the unit that he was originally engaged with on the subsequent turn. This way the catastrophe of the rout is mitigated somewhat.

I don't understand what you said about being out of the game for a few turns.

This is the order I see:

1.) It's the HE turn and one of his units routs.
2.) Oathbound is played, the opponent gets his free attacks.  With the damage prevention or the +2 defensive skill the card provides the HE unit most likely does not take a 2nd rout check.
3.) The HE unit now routs at a 5" and reforms and is out of the opposing units range provided they are a 5" or faster mover.
4.) It's the opponents turn now. The opposing unit can now move towards the HE unit that it was engaged with OR more importantly get a pinch to the left or the right of the HE line.
5.) It's now the HE players next turn.  He can use a command action to set the HE unit to close if he so chooses.  The unit is now back in the fight only one turn later.

You'll have to forgive me Corey I did not understand your last post about forgoing pinching for 4 combat rounds.  I could be missing something.


Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 23, 2016, 09:39:10 AM
That's what command cards do right?  They alter what would normally happen.  In the case of a reroll, the unit has already failed it's rout check and should of routed but the card saved them.  I don't see any difference with a card that gives a unit a different kind of help when they rout.

Yes command cards alter what would normally happen, but it has to be balanced.  See the issue I have with the extra speed is that Oathbound would give a Cge boost, and a bonus against free strikes, and an auto-rally, and a Mc 5" which makes them invulnerable to being charged by most infantry.  IMO that's too good.  An

Quote
This is the order I see:

1.) It's the HE turn and one of his units routs.
2.) Oathbound is played, the opponent gets his free attacks.  With the damage prevention or the +2 defensive skill the card provides the HE unit most likely does not take a 2nd rout check.
3.) The HE unit now routs at a 5" and reforms and is out of the opposing units range provided they are a 5" or faster mover.
4.) It's the opponents turn now. The opposing unit can now move towards the HE unit that it was engaged with OR more importantly get a pinch to the left or the right of the HE line.
5.) It's now the HE players next turn.  He can use a command action to set the HE unit to close if he so chooses.  The unit is now back in the fight only one turn later.

My issue is the other half the time:  If you rout on the opponent's turn, then get an auto-rally, you'll be able to move right back up and plug the hole in the HE line.  Without the auto-rally it doesn't matter the turn the HEs rout, the enemy will be able to flank the HE line regardless of the turn.  Either 1) it's the enemy's turn and they flank-pinch. Or 2) its the HE turn and the HE player rallies the HE unit, but can't move so on the opponent's next turn, they can flank-pinch.


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You'll have to forgive me Corey I did not understand your last post about forgoing pinching for 4 combat rounds.  I could be missing something.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  It has to do with why I think not having the 5" rout move is okay.  Let me try it like this:  Celestial Guard vs Orc Axemen

1)  HE turn and the Celestial Guard routs.  You've played Oathbound, survive the free strikes, and rout 3.5".

2)  Orc turn.  The Orc player has a choice:  flank-pinch the HE line or charge the routing Celestial Guard (destroying them).  He chooses to charge the Celestial Guard, moving 3.5" forward.  But the Orcs are now giving up 1 turn of pinch bonus (for two units).

3)  HE turn.  That's 2 turns of the enemy giving up the pinch bonus.

4)  Orc turn.  Because he moved forward 3.5", the Axemen don't have LOS with the any unit in the HE line.  So he turns around and moves towards the HE line.  That's 3 turns of giving up the pinch bonus.

5)  HE turn.  That's 4 turns of the enemy giving up the pinch bonus.

6)  Orc turn.  The Axmen pinch-rear charge a HE unit.

So by choosing the destroy the routing Celestial Guard, the Orc player has given up four turns of combat where he'd be pinching.  Somewhere in that four turns, the HEs have a chance to blow a hole in the Orc line and start counter-pinching.  That's why I'm okay with the HEs not getting the auto-rally or the extra move when they rout.

Now you can say "but man it sucks to have the Celestial Guard blow a Cge 16 check and then be picked up."  And yeah, it does.  But it also sucks to have Longbeards rout & be cut down.  Or a T-Rex rout and be destroyed by skirmishers (yes, that happened once).  But, in going after that 500pt unit, the enemy gives up the opportunity to flank the rest of the line and gives you a chance to win before those Axemen get back in the fight.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 23, 2016, 07:39:29 PM
Just so you know, if Oathbound was to get this change.  The +2 bonus to courage would be taken away.

The card would do this:  Give a +2 defensive skill or prevent a point on the post rout attacks.  Then allow the unit to rout at 5" minimum.  Then allow the unit to reform on the turn it routs.  That's it.

If this happens on the HE turn, it's not as if the opponent can't capitalize on the rout.  He can pinch the line if he so chooses but will most likely be counter pinched on the HE next turn.  Basically it gives the HE a chance to comeback and win even if they have a horrible rout in the worst situation.  

I'm sorry if I keep pushing this, but this card in it's current form really has no place in this type of army.  It just doesn't help.  I would just rather have two more Parry's in the deck.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 24, 2016, 09:18:58 AM
If this happens on the HE turn, it's not as if the opponent can't capitalize on the rout.  He can pinch the line if he so chooses but will most likely be counter pinched on the HE next turn.  Basically it gives the HE a chance to comeback and win even if they have a horrible rout in the worst situation. 

Correct, but if it happened on the opponent turn the HE would be able to cover that hole in their line.  Which is exactly what I don't want to see happen.  Currently, if the HE unit routs there's a hole in the line and there's nothing the HE player can do before the enemy can capitalize on it.  That is a weakness of the faction that I want to preserve.


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I'm sorry if I keep pushing this, but this card in it's current form really has no place in this type of army.  It just doesn't help.

I get it.  And I agree that, for High Elves, Oathbound is a wretched card.  However even with that card, HE's are still a really strong faction.  Any improvement to that card would boost an already strong faction, and so I'd want to be careful to preserve what balancing factors exist in the faction.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 24, 2016, 11:45:22 AM
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Correct, but if it happened on the opponent turn the HE would be able to cover that hole in their line.  Which is exactly what I don't want to see happen.  Currently, if the HE unit routs there's a hole in the line and there's nothing the HE player can do before the enemy can capitalize on it.  That is a weakness of the faction that I want to preserve.
Quote

Ok, just so we are clear.  Cards with an auto-pass or courage re-rolls which stop the rout from happening in the first place are ok but a card that mitigates the damage a rout does is too powerful in a faction that usually has less units than it's opponent?  Yes, the proposed card will prevent the opposing force the ability to capitalize on a rout but it does not stop the free attacks which will most likely do damage.  Furthermore, it can't always be relied upon because there is no guarantee that the card will be drawn in the first place. 

The weakness of the HE faction is that it will usually be outnumbered against most opponents.  It is a big weakness because of the bonuses from pinching.  Sure the HE can delay the pinching with MM better than most, but against a good player it's an inevitability that is very difficult to overcome.  If anything, this faction needs a card that prevents routs more than most. 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 24, 2016, 12:25:31 PM
Ok, just so we are clear.  Cards with an auto-pass or courage re-rolls which stop the rout from happening in the first place are ok

No, that is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.  Any card that prevents a player from opening a hole in the line is too much of a bonus for this faction.  There are multiple ways that you could do that.  For example, you can reroll/pass the check to not create the hole in the first place.  Or you could have a card like Ordered Retreat, which doesn't pass the check but functionally plugs the hole that would be created by only having the unit rout a little bit.

Your idea would functionally plug the hole half the time by letting the unit get back in the fight.  And stopping the breakthrough half the time is more than I think is balanced.



I'm totally cool with a card that mitigates the damage that gets taken on free strikes, because it'd still let the hole in the line be exploited by the enemy (as happens now) but it'd limit the damage for when a unit of (say) Knights flubs that Courage roll.  Surviving the free strikes would preserve the unit a little more so that it can get back to causing damage.

In that sense, I might be okay with having the unit rout 5" in addition to the damage prevention during free strikes.  But the auto-rally would be too good, IMO.


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The weakness of the HE faction is that it will usually be outnumbered against most opponents.  It is a big weakness because of the bonuses from pinching.  Sure the HE can delay the pinching with MM better than most, but against a good player it's an inevitability that is very difficult to overcome.  If anything, this faction needs a card that prevents routs more than most. 

I am seldom outnumbered by opponents.  I can easily put a 7 unit build on the table1.  Sure they might have deeper ranks (Umenzi or Rome for example), but in the context you described outnumbered = wider lines that can pinch.  The only time that sort of thing happens is if he puts 8 units on the table, but this is where I think MM well more than balances the field.  And yeah, that Battle Squad might have to eat a pinch at some point but the timing of that pinch matters.  If it happens near the end of the game, who cares?  If the other guy can't capitalize because the game is basically over, then that Battle Squad took one for the team.



1for example:
Infantry build: 3 Battle Squads, 3 EB Sword, 1 HE Knights
Fast moving build:  4 Chariots, 2 EB Rangers, 1 Knights
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 25, 2016, 01:29:50 PM
I would like anything better than what the card currently grants.  

Although I don't agree with you that with a reform it makes the faction too powerful, what about this?

Oathbound:  Play whenever one of your units needs to make a courage check.  Give that unit +2 courage.  If the unit routs, it gets +2/+0 for the post rout free attacks and then routs at +1 MC.  During your next movement and command phase, you MUST spend a command action to reform this unit.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 26, 2016, 12:14:59 PM
Oathbound:  Play whenever one of your units needs to make a courage check.  Give that unit +2 courage. 

For the moment, I'd be inclined to let it affect all of your units that turn.  If it proved too powerful, you could easily tone this card down by pulling this.  Make it "choose 2 units" or even go back to your idea of one unit.


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If the unit routs, it gets +2/+0 for the post rout free attacks

Instead of +2/+0, I'd tweak it to be a damage prevention.  Defensive Skill bonus feels very Ravenwoodish.  Damage prevention matches Mithril, and builds on that theme.


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and then routs at +1 MC. 

I could probably get behind their infantry being unable to be auto-destroyed. I'd change it to match Sprint, honestly. 


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During your next movement and command phase, you MUST spend a command action to reform this unit.

I don't like this at all.  First, I don't see the need for it.  Second, I don't like tracking across turns.  What happens if both players forget, the HE player draws a card and it's not until the end of the HE player's turn that they remember?  To me it just doesn't serve a purpose and would only make the game more annoying.


Here's what I'd say is a place to start:

Oathbound:  Play during a Courage Phase, before you take any courage Checks that phase.  Each of your units gets +2 Cge this turn.  Your units ignore the first point of damage during Free Strikes and move at MC 5" during the Courage Phase.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 26, 2016, 02:01:05 PM
The reason I said +1 movement class is because I don't want units that are faster than 5" movers(ie Bowriders) not being able to more their full movement when they rout.  +1MC covers all the bases.

I just thought that forcing the unit to reform was in line with the "Oathbound" aspect of the card.  Perhaps we could just put a counter on the unit to remember.  Kinda like the bless and curse abilities of the Umenzi.

Not sure why it can't be similar to the Ravenwood ability.  They are all elves, aren't they.  I made it a +2 defensive skill instead of a +3 because perhaps High Elves aren't as nimble or fast as their lightly armored Ravenwood cousins when they are running away.  Given their slightly better defensive profile I didn't see the need for giving them a +3.  I guess I could get behind a damage prevention ability but if it's weaker than giving them a +2 defense than I wouldn't prefer it.  The whole idea is for them to survive the post rout attacks(having to hit on 1's or at most 2's for most units).  If they are just going to be blasted into the Red anyways, then what's the point.

Remember the card that I am suggesting now doesn't reform the unit(as per your suggestion), which is unlike the Ravenwood ability also.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 27, 2016, 12:53:27 PM
The reason I said +1 movement class is because I don't want units that are faster than 5" movers(ie Bowriders) not being able to more their full movement when they rout.  +1MC covers all the bases.

I guess I could see that.  It just bugged me for some reason, can't explain why.  I think it bothers me because it'd be introducing something new to the faction (they don't have any flat +1 MC abilities or cards), which concerns me.  Maybe it'd be fine, seeing as how the card doesn't have an auto-rally.


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I just thought that forcing the unit to reform was in line with the "Oathbound" aspect of the card.  Perhaps we could just put a counter on the unit to remember.  Kinda like the bless and curse abilities of the Umenzi.

I get the idea, but I see no value to it.  Further I see it as potentially frustrating.  For example, say you play this card and some Blue cards and the guy still rolls a bunch of 1s and blasts the unit down to its last Red box.  Now you have to spend that CA to rally them whereas you might just write off the unit.  I see it as a clunky mechanic that doesn't add anything to the card.


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Not sure why it can't be similar to the Ravenwood ability.  They are all elves, aren't they. 

Right, but they're still different factions.  And since they have some similarities in stats, I'd want to keep as much theme differences as possible.

I'll tell you my other sneaky reason for making it a damage negate instead of a bonus:  this is a Green card.  So if you really wanted to keep the unit alive you can also play Blue cards.  Making it a damage negate means you can still get a good return for playing cards that affect Blue stats (like a Parry).  Whereas with a Def 5/2 (down to 4/1) that Parry has minimal value.

But to preserve the idea of a bonus for the turn, how about tweaking it to be "negate 1 point from each attack against the unit during Free Strikes?"  So if you're pinched or Two's Company'd you'd negate 1 per unit?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 27, 2016, 03:16:45 PM
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But to preserve the idea of a bonus for the turn, how about tweaking it to be "negate 1 point from each attack against the unit during Free Strikes?"  So if you're pinched or Two's Company'd you'd negate 1 per unit?
Quote

I like that a lot since they get pinched quite a bit.

So, Oathbound:  Play whenever one of your units makes a courage check.  Give this unit +2 courage.  In addition, negate 1 point from each attack against the unit during the post rout free attacks.  It then routs at +1 MC.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 27, 2016, 03:41:14 PM
I'd formalize the language, but yeah that's basically the gist.

Mind you, this is just a house rule idea.  I'd want some extensive playtesting that can determine the faction needs it.  I'm leery of a lot of changes because the faction already is very powerful.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 27, 2016, 04:23:22 PM
I play the High Elves quite often.  I will be trying this out quite a bit.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 27, 2016, 04:46:39 PM
You should have Marcus play High Elves when you try it out.  That way there's not an issue with confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 06, 2016, 03:48:39 PM
Well, after this past weekend I am convinced that the High Elves need a courage re-roll card.  

Here is my new idea and we can do away with the whole protected while routing thing.  It just doesn't suit the card.  In my opinion, if you're Oathbound, you're Oathbound to stick in there and fight on.

Oathbound:  Choose when one or more of your units fails a courage check.

1.) One of your units re-rolls it's courage check at a +3 courage.

or

2.) Up to three of your units may re-roll their courage check.



Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on July 06, 2016, 05:32:13 PM
That idea is massively overpowered.  First off, I can't think of a card that allows rerolls on multiple units.  Second, most reroll cards are a +1 Courage at most (yes, Alexander's reroll can get to +3 Cge...if you're engaged with 3 enemies.  At which point you've got other problems).  Third, no card allows combining  those two effects.

I think you're motivated by the fact that you blew 3 of 4 rout checks at Dexcon.  That is not evidence of a problem with the faction.  That's evidence of some really awful dice.  Nothing more.

Of course, it's a house rule, so do as you wish.  I just highly doubt that idea will ever get within laughing distance of being official.

And on that note, I'm hightailing it from this thread.   ;D
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 06, 2016, 10:11:36 PM
I guy can dream, cant he?

But seriously, something has to be done.  

How about this.

Oathbound(Green card):

Choose one:

Play when one of your units fails a fear or terror check.  Instead pass that check.

OR

Play when one of your units fails a rout check. Instead of routing this unit makes an additional attack at +1/+1 and is then destroyed at the end of combat.  Red cards may be played on this attack.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 07, 2016, 01:48:38 PM
I believe I cooked up this one at Dexcon.

All of your units get +2 courage this turn (as per normal)
OR
You may re-roll a failed courage check.

So you have the option to play it pre-roll or post-roll, which is strong.  But the second roll is at the same number unlike Cold Blooded.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 07, 2016, 03:40:40 PM
I guess that could work too. 

I like my new incarnation also.  A card that let's you go out with a bang.

It also has a boost that stops you from failing a fear or terror check.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on July 07, 2016, 11:55:54 PM
I believe I cooked up this one at Dexcon.

All of your units get +2 courage this turn (as per normal)
OR
You may re-roll a failed courage check.

So you have the option to play it pre-roll or post-roll, which is strong.  But the second roll is at the same number unlike Cold Blooded.

The thing is, a card like this is a big boost to the High Elves, a faction which is already top-tier.  If you have this upgrade then you have to introduce another downgrade to keep the HEs from being overpowered.  Something like Elder Blade Swordsmen becoming Standard.  Or moving all Battle Squads to Standard. 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 08, 2016, 12:05:12 PM
I don't agree with you that the High Elves are Top Tier.  They are definitely middle tier in my opinion.  Perhaps towards the top of middle tier, but still middle tier.  They have never won a championship and I think the main reason because of their inability to stop/prevent rout fails.  I don't expect them to be able to stop all rout fails, but they should at least have a chance to do so.  

What about if we just made their sprint ability a check box.  That way they could use it when they needed it and it could save them against most line units, provided they survive the post rout free attacks.  Maybe sprint could give them MC 5" and a +1 defensive skill when routing? Perhaps they are using all of their speed to avoid being hit.  Then we could just keep Oathbound the same as it is.



Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 09, 2016, 11:57:53 AM
Here's another idea.

Oathbound:  All of your units get +2 courage for the turn.  Your units may lend one courage point to any friendly unit within 3.5" for the turn.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 18, 2016, 10:36:47 PM
Here's a variant of Oathbound I'm gonna try.


Oathbound:  Play before making any courage checks.   Choose one:

All of your units get +2 courage for the turn

OR

One of your units gets +4 courage for the turn.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on July 18, 2016, 10:50:46 PM
Quote
Oathbound:  Play before making any courage checks.   Choose one:

All of your units get +2 courage for the turn

OR

One of your units gets +4 courage for the turn.

That's very close to what I've been using at Championship for years.  (All units +2 or one unit autopass).  On the one hand, it can help with multiple checks in a turn. On the other, every once in a long while you'll skunk the check anyway.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 19, 2016, 01:06:30 PM
Quote
Oathbound:  Play before making any courage checks.   Choose one:

All of your units get +2 courage for the turn

OR

One of your units gets +4 courage for the turn.

That's very close to what I've been using at Championship for years.  (All units +2 or one unit autopass).  On the one hand, it can help with multiple checks in a turn. On the other, every once in a long while you'll skunk the check anyway.
I suggested the exact same thing upthread with the exception of it being a +3 courage for an individual unit.  But I believe +4 is fair.  And as Kevin said, you can still fail the check if you roll ridiculously bad.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 20, 2016, 03:28:33 PM
Oathbound:  Play during the movement and command phase to give up to two of your units get (+0) +0/+1 and +2 courage this turn.  No other offensive command cards may be used on those units this turn.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on July 20, 2016, 03:46:04 PM
Oathbound:  Play during the movement and command phase to give up to two of your units get (+0) +0/+1 and +2 courage this turn.  No other offensive command cards may be used on those units this turn.


I liked the previous one better than this one. Frankly, anything that gives them power instead of skill is a hard sell for me.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 21, 2016, 12:07:58 AM
Why is that?  It's where they are weak unless you pay a ton more for Elderblades.  It's like a mini power charge for them (only two units) and they get a courage boost to keep with the flavor of the card.  It still is not a courage re-roll but has a combat modifier that might help them do a bit more damage.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on July 21, 2016, 12:17:33 AM
I don't think that helps with the courage issue.  Not saying it's a bad card, but isn't this about reducing the pain of High Elves failing courage checks or at least further reducing the risk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnP5iDKwuwk
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on July 21, 2016, 04:29:39 AM
Why is that?  It's where they are weak unless you pay a ton more for Elderblades.  
And that weakness is part of the flavor of the faction. Elves have da skillz, and younger races can lift heavy things.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on July 21, 2016, 08:54:46 AM
I wouldn't even call it a weakness.  It's not like other races get that Pow 6 for free but the High Elves have to pay for it.

IMO the High Elves have a variety of access to Pow 6 in a way that a lot of factions don't have access to their "weakness."  For example, while Dwarves have affordable Pow 6, if you want Skill 6 you have exactly one melee unit to choose from.  Hawkshold has to take either Knights or Greatswordsmen (units with their own drawbacks).  By contrast if the "da skilz'd" High Elves want Pow 6, they can get them with Battle Squads, Swordsmen, or Rangers.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 21, 2016, 03:02:11 PM
I don't think that helps with the courage issue.  Not saying it's a bad card, but isn't this about reducing the pain of High Elves failing courage checks or at least further reducing the risk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnP5iDKwuwk

The card I proposed gives a +2 courage to two units.  Aside from giving them a courage reroll(which for some reason everybody is against) I was thinking we could balance it out by giving them a card that helps them do more damage.  This way they might achieve a break through quicker and not having a great courage card won't matter.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on July 21, 2016, 03:14:26 PM
What wrong with the one you proposed just before it--the one I liked?  Or was that the problem?  ;)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on July 21, 2016, 06:22:00 PM
Nothing is wrong with it.    Anything is better than what is currently is.

I would prefer the card to do something different so even that change is not my first choice.

I liked one of my earlier versions.  

Oathbound:  Play when one of your units fails a courage/rout check.   Mark off one red health box from the right side of the health bar to re-roll the check at a +2 courage.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on September 30, 2016, 03:52:30 PM
Here's another idea I thought of for Oathbound.

Oathbound:  Play on one of your units during any movement and command phase after all movement is complete.  Put a +1 courage counter on this unit.  If the unit fails a rout check remove the counter and re-roll the check.

Or

Give two units a +2 courage for the turn.

This way they could save the card and play it very much like it plays now, or pick a unit ahead of time that will most likely need to pass a rout check.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on February 13, 2017, 02:42:40 PM
Just thought of this recently after a double rout check fail with my high elves vs. Marcus' Dwarves. 

Well, here it is:

Play this on one of your units when it fails a courage/rout check.  Instead it passes the check and for the remainder of this engagement this unit passes all courage/rout checks.  When this engagement ends, destroy this unit at end of turn.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on February 13, 2017, 05:08:45 PM
Nothing like a good mass-suicide to celebrate victory!  :P
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on February 13, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
Nothing like a good mass-suicide to celebrate victory!  :P

My idea is to have an effect that goes along with the name of the card.  They just keep fighting because they are Oathbound to stay in there even though they are outnumbered.  After the fight they are spent and if they survive are no longer a viable fighting force.

"The few will just have to do the work of many"  Right?

As an avid High Elf player I know that there is a time in every battle where maneuver mastery has gotten you only so far and the pinching begins.  It would be nice to have a card that you could play so the unit has to be killed all the way rather than failing a pre-combat rout check or regular rout check.  Some people think a 13 courage is awesome, but I'm not sure it is as good as people think, especially in this type of army where you are always outnumbered.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on March 06, 2017, 12:49:56 PM
Just thought of this while at work.


What if we said that Oathbound is a card that could be played after movement during the movement and command phase only.  You may choose up to two of your units: They get +3 courage for the turn and automatically pass fear or pre-combat rout checks.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on March 12, 2017, 10:56:36 PM
In a sense, this is actually weaker than the current Oathbound in some regards while it's stronger in other.  Meaning I don't think this is broken.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on March 22, 2017, 10:45:02 AM
I'm going to play High Elves with this new idea for Oathbound.  The current Oathbound just doesn't do it for me.  I feel that in an army such as High Elves where every failed rout check usually means disaster, they need something with a little more bite and flair.  Besides, Oathbound is just Uncommon Valor with a different name, which is boring.  I'm not sure why high elves can't have a reroll card like factions with tons of cheap units or like the Dark Elves.  The High Elves need it more than they do, IMHO.

Anyways, here is the version I will work with going forward.

Oathbound:  Up to two of your units automatically pass any fear and/or pre-combat pinch checks.  ***OR***  During any courage phase you may play this card to give up to two units +2 courage for the rest of the turn.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: BubblePig on March 26, 2017, 06:38:47 PM
I think that is a reasonable strength card since you have to play it pre-roll, and it has some flavor, too. You lose some flexibility from the original Oathbound, since your variant needs to be played in the M&C phase and the original can basically be played before any courage roll.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on April 02, 2017, 11:05:05 AM
I think that is a reasonable strength card since you have to play it pre-roll, and it has some flavor, too. You lose some flexibility from the original Oathbound, since your variant needs to be played in the M&C phase and the original can basically be played before any courage roll.

Yes, let the overall, (ahem) higher level courage of the high elves stand.  But have a card that's flavorful, goes along with it's name and lets them auto pass pre-combat rout checks and fear checks. 

Now that's Oathbound, stand in there and fight before you die!!!!!!
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Ostegun on April 20, 2017, 08:25:56 AM
Uuuuu this sounds good will grab my elves to try it out.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on November 03, 2017, 01:48:51 PM
Here is my latest incarnation of Oathbound. 


Oathbound:  Up to two units of your choosing automatically pass any pre-combat or fear checks and get +1 courage for the turn.  OR  you may re-roll a failed courage check at a +2 courage.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: GoIndy on November 03, 2017, 05:06:29 PM
Does that card have to be played in Movement Command phase, or after you failed a check?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Kevin on November 04, 2017, 08:00:03 AM
One way per function I think.  Either way, this is unambiguously more powerful than the Lizardmen Cold Blooded card, which gives a re-roll at +1 and no secondary function.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on November 05, 2017, 04:38:35 PM
Oathbound:  Up to two of your units automatically pass any fear and/or pre-combat pinch checks.  ***OR***  During any courage phase you may play this card to give up to two units +2 courage for the rest of the turn.

Of the ones proposed, I think this is the best one so far.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on November 06, 2017, 12:47:35 PM
Oathbound:  Up to two of your units automatically pass any fear and/or pre-combat pinch checks.  ***OR***  During any courage phase you may play this card to give up to two units +2 courage for the rest of the turn.

Of the ones proposed, I think this is the best one so far.

I would change the 2nd half to "During any courage phase, after one of your units routs, you may play re-roll that courage check at a +2 courage.  So two units automatically pass fear/pre-combat OR one re-roll at a +2.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on November 06, 2017, 01:00:08 PM
Oathbound:  Up to two of your units automatically pass any fear and/or pre-combat pinch checks.  ***OR***  During any courage phase you may play this card to give up to two units +2 courage for the rest of the turn.

Of the ones proposed, I think this is the best one so far.

Too strong, I think.  I'd condense it down to only apply to one unit, but give the unit the Cge bump.  So it passes pre-combat checks and gets +2 Cge this turn.

I still think Oathbound works better as a card that lets you save the unit when you blow the rout check.  Damage prevention, auto-pass any follow up rout checks, and rally the unit at the end of the turn.  So a hole still opens in the HE line, but you don't have your Knights or your Celestial Guard just picked up because you boned a Cge 13 Yellow check.


Oathbound:  Up to two of your units automatically pass any fear and/or pre-combat pinch checks.  ***OR***  During any courage phase you may play this card to give up to two units +2 courage for the rest of the turn.

Of the ones proposed, I think this is the best one so far.

I would change the 2nd half to "During any courage phase, after one of your units routs, you may play re-roll that courage check at a +2 courage.  So two units automatically pass fear/pre-combat OR one re-roll at a +2.

Waaaay overpowered.  It's outright better than Cold Blooded when it comes to a reroll and it has an additional option.  This is house rules, so you guys do whatever you'd like in your home games, but this ain't making the jump to the Rules Team forum.   8)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on February 22, 2018, 01:09:58 PM
This just came to me today.

Oathbound:  Play during the movement and command phase.  Up to three of your units that are being charged or charging automatically pass any fear, terror or pre-combat rout checks.

OR

One of your routing units gets +2/+0 during post routs attacks and reforms at the end of turn.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on May 03, 2018, 04:39:48 PM
Here's another version. 

Oathbound:

One of your units automatically passes all fear and pre-combat rout checks this turn.

or

Heal one red health box on one of your units after combat.  This can be done even if your unit receives lethal damage.

   
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on May 23, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
Just thought of this when making a post in the fearsome topic.


Oathbound:

If one of your units fails a rout check when charged or pinched you may play Oathbound to pass that check.

or

Play before any courage checks/rout checks are rolled.  Up to two of your units get +2 courage for the turn.



Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 15, 2018, 12:53:44 PM
Oathbound:

Play on a unit that has just failed a rout check.  This unit gains+1/+0 for the post rout free attacks.  Then after post rout movement, reform this unit and set it to close.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 16, 2018, 11:40:18 AM
Oathbound:

Play on a unit that has just failed a rout check.  This unit gains+1/+0 for the post rout free attacks. 

What about D:+1/+1 instead?  The flat +! is a bit weak.  Or if you want to keep it in theme of the HE cards like Mithril you could just change the bonus to "Prevent the first point of damage taken during Free Strikes."


Quote
Then after post rout movement, reform this unit and set it to close.

That seems a touch good, because it's functionally 2 CAs (1 to rally and 1 to change the SO), both of them out of turn.  What about "at the end of the turn, rally the unit" instead?
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 17, 2018, 01:51:36 PM
What about this.


Play when one of your units fails a courage check.  Give this unit +1/+1 until end of turn.  If at the end of the turn this unit is un-engaged, reform it.

This way it can be used if the unit fails a fear check as well. 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on June 18, 2018, 09:19:26 AM
Too good.  You'd have HE units that are a D:4/3 and then you can play Blue cards on them.  Might as well say "discard a card to ignore all damage this turn."

Plus they get a free reform if they kill their enemy?  That's really powerful.  Especially because it's potentially something that can be done on your turn (i.e. negating your opponent's ability to flank or pinch).  Way too strong.

Also it's strange that they get better defense if they fail a Fear check.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on June 18, 2018, 01:26:16 PM
Here's another thought.

Oathbound:  Play on one of your units after it fails a rout check.  Give this unit +1/+1 for the post rout free attacks and reform this unit at end of turn.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 05, 2018, 03:58:08 PM
Here's another idea:

Oathbound:

Play when one of your units rout. 

This unit does not suffer any post rout free attacks.  Instead, assign one damage to this unit and one damage to any friendly units within 2.5".  After this unit routs, reform it.   This assigned damage can not cause a rout check.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 06, 2018, 11:38:56 AM
This is essentially Ordered Retreat but with an additional kick in the balls to your allied units.  Also, with Ordered Retreat you can reform your unit virtually right in the spot it routed, preserving your line.  With this Oathbound, you're unit would still route the full 3.5", leaving the dreaded hole in the line in addition to the kick in the balls to your neighboring units.  Yuck.

.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on August 06, 2018, 11:52:27 AM
What Marcus said.  I like the previous iteration:

Oathbound:  Play on one of your units after it fails a rout check.  Give t This unit gets +1/+1 for the during post rout free attacks. and reform Rally this unit at end of turn.

I made a few edits to make it consistent with existing cards.  No substantive changes.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 06, 2018, 12:09:26 PM
This is essentially Ordered Retreat but with an additional kick in the balls to your allied units.  Also, with Ordered Retreat you can reform your unit virtually right in the spot it routed, preserving your line.  With this Oathbound, you're unit would still route the full 3.5", leaving the dreaded hole in the line in addition to the kick in the balls to your neighboring units.  Yuck.

.

Being able to charge in the next turn after your opponent pinches allows you to even the score.  Remember the routing unit only takes one damage and reforms, which is big.  Also, if the unit gets pinched and fails it's pre-combat rout check it only still gets one damage.  Which is actually better than Ordered retreat, where the routing unit gets a point of damage for every unit it's engaged with.  If you think adding in the ability to reform wherever you want would be better, then lets do that. 

It would be like the other units are helping the routing unit hold it's ground and stand firm.  Hence the damage to the surrounding units
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 06, 2018, 12:25:44 PM
What Marcus said.  I like the previous iteration:

Oathbound:  Play on one of your units after it fails a rout check.  Give t This unit gets +1/+1 for the during post rout free attacks. and reform Rally this unit at end of turn.

I made a few edits to make it consistent with existing cards.  No substantive changes.

Perhaps it could be more like a wolf pack/wolf kin ability?

Oathbound:  Play when one of your units rout:  This unit gets +3/+0 for the post rout free attacks.  It reforms within 3.5" at the end of the turn.

This is much more elfy........  Not sure I like the +1/+1 anymore.  They wouldn't be donning more armor on the retreat.  They would be parrying and using their speed (MM) to reform.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 06, 2018, 12:40:01 PM
Here's another idea.

Oathbound:

Play before any rout checks are made.  All High Elf units get +2 courage for the remainder of the turn. Routing units reform at the end of their post rout movement.   Blue defensive cards may still be played during the post rout free attacks.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on August 06, 2018, 01:23:00 PM
This is much more elfy........  Not sure I like the +1/+1 anymore.  They wouldn't be donning more armor on the retreat. 

Toughness isn't just about armor.  It can be about inability to feel pain or willpower to keep fighting even when injured.  Which I can totally see if they are 'fulfilling their Oath."

Especially because it's more negating the pinch bonus than providing more armor.  So what's happening is that the unit is routing, but the captain is calling on them to fulfill their oath in the face of the enemy.  The Elves then reform in good order rather than flee.  In essence, they become skirmishers for a moment so that their rout is more of a withdraw and thus doesn't grant the pinch bonus.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 06, 2018, 02:03:38 PM
I still like giving them more of a wolf kin bonus as apposed to the +1 defensive toughness.  Also, I kinda like the suggestion below it, giving the pre rout courage and the post rout reform.  Make it a true green card and have the ability to play blue cards if you have them. 
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 06, 2018, 02:06:24 PM
The Elves then reform in good order rather than flee.  In essence, they become skirmishers for a moment so that their rout is more of a withdraw and thus doesn't grant the pinch bonus.

I must say that when you look at it this way, it totally plays into the High Elven flavor when you consider the Maneuver Mastery component as well.  They've been practicing warfare for a ridiculously long time and one of the things they've achieved during that time is the ability to exit a bad situation in a more orderly fashion than their younger opponents.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 07, 2018, 08:46:37 AM
All I know that whatever this card becomes, it needs to be on the upper end of the power curve.  (At least as good as Ordered Retreat or I kill you myself for example).

I've played the +1/+1 version and it doesn't meet that standard as far as I can tell.  Negating the rear attack bonus is not enough. 



Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on August 07, 2018, 08:55:30 AM
All I know that whatever this card becomes, it needs to be on the upper end of the power curve.  (At least as good as Ordered Retreat or I kill you myself for example).

I guess that's where we'll have to disagree.  I think High Elves are already on top of the power curve, so I don't think the faction needs a boost.  I agree that Oathbound is kind of a lame card, but my perspective is that any changes to it should be lateral:  not affecting the power of the card, just doing something different.

I respect that we won't agree on that fact, so rather than us keep having the "Tastes Great, Less Filling" type debate back and forth, I'll bow out of this one.   ;D
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 07, 2018, 10:58:03 AM
I have no problem with the back and forth.  I just want this card to be something that is useful for the faction. +2 courage all around just doesn't fit them and doesn't allow for mitigating a failed rout check like some of the other better cards out there.

Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on August 07, 2018, 12:17:06 PM
I have no problem with the back and forth.  I just want this card to be something that is useful for the faction. +2 courage all around just doesn't fit them and doesn't allow for mitigating a failed rout check like some of the other better cards out there.

Oh, I wasn't like rage quitting or anything.  I just have a different design philosophy and don't want to waste your time if we have different desired outcomes.

IMO, what makes the High Elves such a top tier faction is that they are good at the two things that are king in Battleground:  matchups and maneuverability.  They have one of the widest variety of units of all the factions.  They have almost the same variety as Dark Elves.  They have less lower-end (i.e. sandbag) units, but they can field a variety of viable builds from 5" movers that punch to a grindy line of Battle Squads and EB Swordsmen.  What makes this even better is that between Sprint & Maneuver Mastery, they are better at making their good matchups happen fast and their bad matchups happen slow.  Which simply cannot be overstated how powerful that is.

One of the only weaknesses of them is that they lack a Courage bailout.  So when you fail that Cge 13 Yellow check, a hole opens in the line and there's very little High Elves can do about it.  Which makes a viable counter strategy to them either A) grind out across a wide front or B) hit those Battle Squads with a big thump unit like Knights or Marauders.  Option A is "He will fail 1 in 4 checks, so I will make him take as many as possible."  Option B is "I'm gonna take all 8 boxes off as fast as I can.  And if he fails that Cge check, it's bonus for me."

Given how strong the faction is, the only way I'd be willing to entertain taking either of those options off the table would be to weaken something else (And I know this is shading away from House Rules and into Rules Team a little bit).  So if Oathbound becomes as good as I Kill You Meself or even Ordered Retreat, I'd only agree to that if (picking something out of the air without really thinking about it), Maneuver Mastery only negates -1 MC or even went away entirely.


That said, one thing that bugs me about where the HE's are now is the "double loss" of one of the HE beatstick units failing that Courage check.  What I mean is that, if your Battle Squad blows a Cge check then it has failed to do 1 job:  prevent a breakthrough.  Yeah that's bad, and it may be the unit's only job.  But, if you have a HE Knights or Eb Sword unit, that unit has two jobs:  prevent a breakthrough and create a breakthrough.

So when the Knights blow their check, it's not just one step back on the path to victory.  It's two steps back.  Because now he's pinching AND you have lost one of your beatstick units.

And sure that can happen in a lot of factions.  But usually you have a Courage bailout or the unit is sufficiently powerful (i.e. T4 or a lot of hit boxes) that you can play cards to mitigate that.

So if there was an area to improve on, I'd say it's making that blown test be only a single step back on the path.  That's why I like negating the Rear Attack bonus and then auto-rally[1].  This lets you get your beatstick unit back in the fight.  Which means the enemy has a choice:  pinch (and expose their flank) or go after the rallied unit to finish it off.  In other words, the enemy either destroys your breakthrough unit or it breaks through your line.  So now your beatsick unit is only failing at one of its jobs.  The card turns a "double loss" into a "single loss."



[1]Mind you, this Green card means you can still play a Blue card on those free strikes.  Yes that gets pricey in terms of Command Cards, but it means that you really can do your best to preserve that unit if you need to.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 07, 2018, 05:20:54 PM
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Mind you, this Green card means you can still play a Blue card on those free strikes.  Yes that gets pricey in terms of Command Cards, but it means that you really can do your best to preserve that unit if you need to.
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I had no idea that playing blue cards was an option.  If that's the case, then +1/+1 and a reform is totally fine.   I really didn't think it was going to be like an attack storm where you could also play blue cards.
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: gornhorror on August 22, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Wow, I just want to make a post because this discussion board is a ghost town.  I think I just saw some tumbleweed. :) (gentle wind blows...........)

Oh, did I mention, Oathbound is such a boring, unexciting card.  This card needs to be changed/altered to give it some pizzaz.  Helping the High Elves mitigate failed rout checks in the process would be good too.

Can some people try the latest version and see if you like it?

Just a reminder.....it is.....Oathbound:  Play on one of your units after it fails a rout check.  This unit gets +1/+1 for the post rout free attacks.  Rally this unit at the end of the turn.




Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: RushAss on August 27, 2018, 01:37:20 PM
We'll play it  :)
Title: Re: Oathbound...a new idea
Post by: Hannibal on August 28, 2018, 10:37:55 AM
Honestly, I think you should move this to the Rules Team forum.  See if you can convince Scott that it's a fix that doesn't overpower High Elves.