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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => Faction Discussions => Topic started by: ajax98 on February 21, 2009, 11:15:25 PM

Title: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: ajax98 on February 21, 2009, 11:15:25 PM
 ;D
The standard caveat - I just copied- credit where credit is due.
OBTW, post may be chopped due to some just incurred text limit (2000 characters).

>>>>
Ultiville:
    
High Elves Units and Tactics
I'm gonna start off a big High Elf tactics thread.  I'm going to begin by inspecting the forces!

I'll list each High Elf unit and give a number of stars to each general role I think one might try to use it in, from 1-5.  If I don't list a given role it means I think it can't do that, but I could always be wrong or forgetful, so please respond and post your own if you like!

We can also use this thread for High Elf tactics; I might put some of mine up later but they have shown up in some other places so I might also be lazy.  It'll be a surprise.

If you have a post you've made in another thread that you think fits in this one, feel free to post it; I think it would make some sense to have everything in one place.

General guideline to what the stars mean:

*:  It looks like this unit might be able to do this, but I've found that this is a trap.
**:  In select cases, the unit might not completely embarrass you trying to play this role.
***:  The unit plays the role competently.  Generally it won't work miracles, but it justifies its points in most games.
****:  The unit is excellent at that role.  I'll try to "upgrade" other units in that role to this one if I can.
*****:  Centaurs.

Stars are points-adjusted, so you'll often see a unit that's better on the table getting fewer stars at a role, because it isn't enough better to make the points worth it in my opinion.

Roles:

Tank: This is a unit you use to soak up hits and last long enough for relief to arrive, without planning on it doing significant damage.
Light Infantry:  This is a unit that you plan to have last just long enough to get help, and maybe do a bit of damage while it's at it.  It won't stand up to a real damage unit, but it will prevent opposing tanks from embarrassing you by pinching in.  I think of this as the "offensive" version of the tank unit.
Heavy Infantry:  The game's generalist units.  They have good attack and defense stats, but neither is enough of a standout that they aren't capable of both dealing and taking some damage.  These are the non-specialist guys who you plan to use to cover contingencies and things like that.
Light Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in, either against weak units or into a pinch.  This plan involves breaking them on the first turn because the unit will be in trouble if you don't.
Heavy Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in and beat people up on the charge turn, but unlike Light Damage, you're trusting them to last a few turns if things go wrong.
Fire Support:  This is a unit you use to add fire where it is needed.  You don't count on them to get much done on their own, but combined with a reasonable infantry unit or other fire support, they can create holes in the opposing line and get things going.
Artillery:  The big guns.  These units add fire support, but the fire is meaningful enough that you are hoping they'll do big damage over the course of the game, rather than serving a dedicated support role.
Other:  Sometimes I'll put in another category, like "Centaurs" or "Bowriders" and explain it in the comments.

I'll also give every unit an overall score indicating how often I tend to play it.

High Elf Unit Review

Cygnets
Light Infantry: ***
Tank: **
Overall: **

Cygnets are actually a perfectly fine light infantry type unit; they're very cheap for their stats, and they're able to hold up long enough and do enough damage that two of them pinching will almost certainly take down a reasonable tank or heavy infantry unit, which I consider the hallmark of reasonable light infantry.  Unfortunately the High Elves don't need a light infantry unit, and High Elf command cards and abilities tend to work far better with higher quality units.  The Cygnets are also seemingly comparable to Hawk Swordsmen, but without the Hawk army ability, they can't really be trusted as tanks like Swordsmen can.  These guys have some specialized roles, but I find Battle Squads just fit the vast majority of High Elf armies better, for a mostly negligible increase in costs.

High Elf Battle Squad
Tank: ****
Light Infantry: *
Overall: ****

It is a rare High Elf army that I build without having any of these guys in it.  They're absolutely fantastic at heroic defiance: they'll hold a piece of ground for ages and not give an inch.  With heavy infantry style defense stats, eight health, and good courage, they're going to hold up even vastly more expensive units for quite some time.  Newer players often think they suck, though, because they plan to have them work as some sort of light infantry unit, or a heavy infantry on the cheap.  Don't let their high attack skill and average strength fool you: these guys are not likely to average even one damage, and they've got so few dice that it rarely makes sense to boost them with offensive cards (though dice adders can be very good.)  They serve as stopgap number 1, though, against the horrible risk of pinches the High Elves often run.  If all you expect for them (and at 187 points this is a great deal!) is to be flypaper and hold an enemy unit down until you can pinch it, then they'll serve you exceedingly well.

Elder Blade Battle Squad
Tank: ****
Light Infantry: *
Overall: ***/*

Sadly, these guys pay a hefty amount of points for an increased stat that I'm pretty convinced you'll never care about.  They cost 33 more points than a Battle Squad and they'll barely ever perform noticeably better.  They technically get three stars because they're still an amazingly good tank unit once they're on the table...but given you have a cheaper, in faction unit that is exactly the same defensively for fewer points, I'm not sure why you'd ever take them.  Frankly, in most situations, I think I'd rather have the command card.

High Elf Spearmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: ***
Spearman: **
Overall: **

These guys are odd.  They occupy a points cost somewhere between Swordsmen and Elder Blade Swordsmen, which is handy I guess if you've got the spare points, but it's an awfully specific role.  They're a fine unit that won't disgrace you or anything, but they're not great at their spearmen role because I find often the threat of spearmen is the most powerful thing against cavalry or large guys, and these guys are too expensive to really make me feel great about that.  If my 220 point Hawk or 230 point Ravenwood Spearmen are warding off some 400 point monstrosity because they'll maul it badly if it charges them, that's hilarious.  But these guys are almost 400 themselves, so I'm not nearly as happy leaving them out of combat.  That said, they're still a strict upgrade on Swordsmen, so if you've got the points, and you have a Swordsmen, I'd rather have these guys than an extra command card.

High Elf Swordsmen
Tank: ****
Heavy Infantry: **
Overall: ***

I consider these guys to be the 2500-3000 point game's equivalent of Battle Squads.  They're not really going to do damage in line with their cost in most cases (300 points is a lot!) but they're very brave, have great defense, and a lot of health given how hard it is to get hits through on them.  I field Battle Squads a lot more often, because I find they get the job done well enough and I'm always having trouble fitting in damage units, but these guys are fine, and as games get bigger, the opposing line's average strength goes up, so you have to budget at least some of your Battle Squads into these guys because their opposition gets tougher.  I consider these guys only mediocre as heavy infantry because High Elves really need their heavies to kick out better attacks to justify themselves.

Elder Blade Swordsmen
Tank: **
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: **
Overall: ****

These guys are the other core infantry unit that I really like in the High Elves at 2000 points.  They're brutally hard to kill at that level, and with (5) 6/6 attack stats they're not going to end up with the problem that cripples Swordsmen as a breakthrough unit: 2's to wound plate wearers.  These guys are also incredibly flexible because their ability to pretend to be a heavy damage unit in a pinch is highly relevant if the opponent just tries to swarm you with terrible guys.  Against really awful opponents like Goblins, they've got a very good chance to rout them on the first turn, so they can do a passable impression of a real damage unit against foes like that.  This sounds like faint praise, but it is really handy: no matter how much information you have about the opponent (unless you know the exact list, I suppose) Battleground armies are flexible enough that the unexpected happens quite often.  Having units reasonably capable of cross-training is really important in cases like that.

High Elf Archers
Fire Support: ***
Charging into a pinch:  Grin
Overall: ***

These guys are a solid, workhorse unit.  They're higher quality attacks than most fire support, and accuracy on archers is always very welcome, but they come with a hefty price tag, so they're only sort of ok at it anyway.  The High Elves love shooting units, though, since they're so evasive with maneuver mastery and can a pain to chase down out of proportion to the rewards you get for doing so.  Never forget they can charge in and pinch someone from up to 5" away (Sprint) either; it is not only fun, but also often highly effective.  They only get three stars because they're quite pricey for a unit that can't do anything but shoot, and other than being core and a few more points, Bowriders do everything they do and more.

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: **
Heavy Damage: *
Overall: *

I don't like these guys much.  First things first: they will never survive charging a halfway decent unit head on.  They're just too terrible on turns beyond the first.  Only four attack dice at most, and 2/2 defense, means they're not made for that.  What they are made for is charging in at flanks, and they do a passable job at it.  Unfortunately they're hampered by two major failings in that scenario: first, they are quite a lot of points for someone who can only engage in favorable circumstances, and second they only move 5".  Both of these are pretty crippling, and for a significant but not ridiculous 40 additional points, you could get Bowriders who are likely to get the job done charging a flank and both move faster and add support fire until they get there or if things go wrong.  These guys are core, but even in the very rare army where I don't want to run any line units, I'm going archers for my cores over these guys.  I basically only ever field them in round 1 of Kingdoms campaigns, where you aren't allowed to bring anyone but Core units so there aren't any other flanking units to choose from.

end part 1
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Niko White on February 28, 2009, 09:38:33 AM
HE part 2
High Elf Rangers
Elder Blade Rangers
Light Infantry: ***
Heavy Infantry: *
Overall: ***

I like these guys a fair bit, but I find between Knights and Bowriders I don't often fit them into armies.  Don't make the mistake of trying to tank or take major hits with them; these guys are a classic light infantry type, taking advantage of their maneuverability and speed to hit targets of opportunity and go into advantageous positions.  They're good as far as that goes, but they're a bit overkill if you're planning on having them come in for a pinch, so I mostly only use them if I'm trying to go without front lines at all, a technique that can be successful, but is definitely difficult to pull off.  I've grouped both Ranger variants in with each other because I consider the Elder Blade to be virtually perfectly costed in this case; I'll bring either Elder Blades or normal Rangers based on if I have the spare points and if I know who I'm facing; a plate faction (or lizards) gets Elder Blades while Umenzi or other Elves get normal.  The main question is "do I bring either kind of ranger"; they serve exactly the same role once I've figured that out.

High Elf Bowriders
Support Fire: **
Light Damage: ***
Degenerate Endgame: ***
Causing the opponent to want to punch you: ****
Overall: *****

I included the silly "other" categories partially because they amused me, but also because the Bowriders are one of the few generalist units in this game that aren't bad, and so just listing their primary roles does them a disservice.  They don't excel at any given role, but unlike, say, Ravenwood Bearkin, who don't excel at any role but will often leave you wishing they did, the Bowriders have such a huge amount of maneuverability and flexibility that they'll get to do three or four different things per game, all valuable, based on the need.  The most basic is to have them give support fire as the line advances, then charge into a pinch, before finally being a devastating threat in the end game once units have thinned out enough to let them run around causing trouble.  They can do a lot more than that too, though; they are one of the best units in the game for forcing the opponent to respond to their presence.  If they are allowed to get free, they'll run rampant all over the opposing army, so just the threat of them threading their adorable way through the enemy line and getting into the wide open spaces behind the main lines is unacceptable to wise opponents.  This means they'll often lead one or two units as good or better than them all over the place, shooting at them all the while, helping negate your numbers disadvantage.  They're one of my favorite units in the game, not so much because they're one of the most powerful (though they might be) but because they reward skill, flexible thinking, and brinksmanship of various sorts that are almost always fun.  In the interests of objectivity: do be careful with them.  They're quite fragile, especially to six skill archers like other Elves or Longbows.  They're also very expensive for their health and raw power, so if you're lacking in confidence that you understand how to use them, be aware they might be disappointing.  Of course, if you never try, you'll never learn Wink

High Elf Battlemages
Support Fire: **
Drawing Command Cards: **
Overall: **

My opinion of these guys has gone down dramatically since I first started playing the High Elves.  I love the unit for flavor and the elegance of the design, but it just doesn't do it for me mechanically.  The problem is that it falls on the other side of the generalist category from Bowriders, for me.  The attack is deeply questionable, worse than the High Elf archers by a little bit inherently, and by a fair bit given that the Archers have better synergy with most of the High Elf command cards, which add dice and so want you to have few good dice rather than more bad ones.  The card drawing is quite nice, and seems great given the High Elves can be very command action hungry, but even capping out your starting command cards at six costs almost 100 points less than these guys, and they're rarely going to net you six cards.  That isn't to say I'd never take them, but be very sure you know what you're doing and what you expect from them.  You have to really get strong value out of both the card side and the attack side for these guys to be good, and that happens way less likely than your Bowriders will be good at both ranged and melee combat.

High Elf Knights
Heavy Damage: ****
Overall: ****

I love a unit that's completely clear about what it does, and does it well.  These guys exist to plow into flanks or to charge into light to medium opposing units and butcher them.  They're sort of problematic compared to Hawk Knights because 3 of their 8 points of charge power are bonus, so they're a little weak against plate wearers beyond the charge turn, but they're also cheaper and their defensive profile is way better overall.  It doesn't hurt that 3*/2 defense makes them better against artillery and often better at fighting other cavalry.  Really they don't get 5 stars because charging with them isn't quite as fun as charging with Centaurs.  Which isn't really fair because nothing is as fun as charging with Centaurs, but that's life.  (That said, High Elf Knights will actually often beat Centaurs in a fight.)

High Elf Scorpions
Artillery: ***
Really annoying to use:  Angry
Overall: **

Sometimes you just need a six power shooting unit.  Fair enough.  I'd only use these guys if you have a really, really good reason they're better than archers, though, because all of their "Can't" clauses are really annoying.  Dwarven Ballistas have all the same ones and work fine, but that's because Dwarves can barely move and so no one cares that their artillery unit is also barely mobile, whereas High Elves love to run around like ten-year-olds hopped up on amphetamines so it is pretty irksome when you've got a unit that's so clumsy and methodical.  That said, sometimes you know the opponent is bringing a hydra or dragon or something and just need some way to hurl giant pointy sticks at it from a safe distance, and if that's what's going on, this is the unit for you.  We Elves like to have it available, but hope we need never use it.

Celestial Guard
Heavy Infantry: ****
Overall: ***

There's not a lot to say about this guy, but I've never let that stop me.  With his absurd melee attacks and hilariously high defenses, he doesn't pretend to be anything but what he is: a preposterous melee beater that will never die.  And he's awesome at it!  He is indeed almost immortal and will dish out quite a lot of damage, really only rivaled by giant monsters and things that get impact hits.  Unfortunately I can't in good conscience give this guy more than three stars overall because while I love just how absurdly good he is, he's a staggeringly expensive unit in a faction full of incredibly powerful, staggeringly expensive units.  If you're playing at a high point value, or you know there's a choke point in the terrain or otherwise will be an area you want to hold at all costs, this unit will get it done for you.  Otherwise I'd worry he's just going to cost more points to win a fight that an Elder Blade Swordsman would already have won for 150 points less.



High Elf Thread Part 2: General Tips and Tactics

1. Remember what Your Army Ability Is

Precision isn't the High Elf army ability.  With most factions, the checkbox ability is the big one, the centerpiece of the faction.  With the High Elves, this isn't true.  Precision can be handy, especially against some of the nightmare defense skill units that can come up, like Antonians, or if you just need to know that you'll have some sort of attack booster, but the real High Elf army abilities are Maneuver Mastery and Sprint, especially Maneuver Mastery.  One of the reasons I consider the High Elves to be an army that rewards skill is that these two abilities are extremely powerful if used right, but also extremely easy to misuse.  Sprinting in for a pinch or engagement a turn early is the basic one, and can be devastating, but it really just scratches the surface.  A few that come up more often:

Defensive Use.  Remember that while getting in there is nice, the combination of MM and Sprint lets you avoid engagements you don't like better than any other faction can.  A MM'ed foot unit can escape from anything that moves 3.5" or less literally forever.  If you also Sprint it, it can gain ground, or stay away from things with 5" move or less.  (If you're really clever you can gain ground on 3.5" units without sprinting by exploiting the fact that you don't have to pay for turns and they do, but this can be hard unless you have a lot of clearance.)  This means you can do hilarious things with, say, late game High Elf foot archers, who can run away from several melee units as they shoot them to death.  It also means that Bowriders shouldn't ever get engaged unless you want them to barring things like Goblin Wolf Riders.

Shooting Gaps and the "Clearly Visible" Rule.  Remember that you can't final rush something you can't see at the start of the M&C phase.  Likewise, you can't shoot something you can't see.  This means you can cut very close to (or between!) enemy units, and as long as you don't end in their front arc, they can't pin you down and have to take move and shoot if they want to shoot at you.  You also take no movement penalty for moving sideways, so you can slide through gaps that you don't appear to have any right to.  This is great for getting Knights or Bowriders at soft targets.

2. Balance your Roles!

Like the Hawks, the High Elves risk having an overabundance of tanking.  Battle Squads are awesome and you virtually always want a few of them, but without some sold heavy hitters, you have a strong risk that all you're doing is forcing your opponent to win slowly.  Good heavy infantry can do a passable job at this, and having a unit of Elder Blade Swordsmen mixed in with the Battle Squads can be a great idea, but if you don't get some sort of dedicated damage unit (usually Bowriders or Knights) you're asking for trouble.  Fire support like archers can also be great, because adding weight of fire to a solid heavy infantry unit like Celestial Guard or Swordsmen can push them over the top into getting the job done in time to bail out the Battle Squads.

3. Standing Orders Matter a Lot

You should always be careful with your starting standing orders, since they are essentially one free command action for every unit in your army if you do them right, but this can go doubly for High Elves, especially units like Bowriders that you plan to use MM on with some regularity.  Keep in mind what you want it to do if you don't want to spare the order for MM that turn, or what you will want it to do on the turn you stop using MM on it.  Hold, Ranged, and Close (all usually with targets) can all make sense for Bowriders or Knights.  Make sure you pick one with an eye to being able to save as many command actions as possible; the last thing you want to happen is to have a turn where you need to do something else with your command actions but can't because if you don't your Bowrider will charge a holding Tyrant Spearmen or something.

4. Consider Unbalancing Your Roles!

Usually making sure you have a little bit of all the roles is a quite good way to go with High Elves, but the fact that MM and Sprint are such good defensive tools can also make you better than anyone else at completely neglecting tanking and infantry.  You don't have enough command actions to do this on an open board, but some terrain, including some of the Kingdoms stuff, is very constrained.  If you expect the opponent to be slow moving or broken up by terrain, you can go wild and just bring archers and cavalry and hope to annihilate the opposing units one by one.  I usually run an army like this with High Elf Archers filling in the cores and combat teams of Bowriders + Knight or 2x Bowriders filling in the rest.  A Knight charging the front and a Bowrider the flank will see off virtually any unit in the game, and the concentrated fire of all those archery units can soften most things up enough that a Knight or even Bowrider charge will get it done alone (though Bowriders on the front are risky as they are awfully fragile.)

This kind of army really requires a mastery of all of the tricks and tactics at the command of the High Elf general: MM + Sprint to avoid unwanted engagements, how to pick battles, how to do initial orders as well as possible, knowing when to pinch in with foot archers, and so on.  The rewards can be very high, however; if an opponent outnumbers you badly but will have to deal with a slow or broken advance, sometimes your only hope is to avoid protracted engagements entirely because anyone who ends up engaged for very long will get swarmed and killed.  This kind of army can be a solution to that issue.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: NegativeZer0 on February 28, 2009, 11:38:12 AM

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: **
Heavy Damage: *
Overall: *

I don't like these guys much.  First things first: they will never survive charging a halfway decent unit head on.  They're just too terrible on turns beyond the first.  Only four attack dice at most, and 2/2 defense, means they're not made for that.  What they are made for is charging in at flanks, and they do a passable job at it.  Unfortunately they're hampered by two major failings in that scenario: first, they are quite a lot of points for someone who can only engage in favorable circumstances, and second they only move 5".  Both of these are pretty crippling, and for a significant but not ridiculous 40 additional points, you could get Bowriders who are likely to get the job done charging a flank and both move faster and add support fire until they get there or if things go wrong.  These guys are core, but even in the very rare army where I don't want to run any line units, I'm going archers for my cores over these guys.  I basically only ever field them in round 1 of Kingdoms campaigns, where you aren't allowed to bring anyone but Core units so there aren't any other flanking units to choose from.

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: ***
Heavy Damage: *
Small Point Games:****
Overall: ***

I really don't think you give chariots enough credit.  These are defiantly a small point game unit (500-1000) but in these games chariots have almost no rival and they are core giving you more options in these tight build games.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Niko White on February 28, 2009, 12:01:39 PM
High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: ***
Heavy Damage: *
Small Point Games:****
Overall: ***

I really don't think you give chariots enough credit.  These are defiantly a small point game unit (500-1000) but in these games chariots have almost no rival and they are core giving you more options in these tight build games.

I never play games those sizes, so I can believe they're ok there, though I'm still not sure I wouldn't rather have a Battlesquad and some extra points.  At least in those games they're far more likely to find units on the battlefield they can safely charge, but they're still quite expensive given they can't safely attack units costing more than about 150 points without going into a pinch.

They're certainly not a useless unit, and core isn't nothing, especially in as you say small games or early Kingdoms rounds, but I've always found them to be pretty subpar in pickup games of standard points values (1500-2500) which is really what I was trying to convey with my unit reviews.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: NegativeZer0 on March 07, 2009, 11:20:54 AM
The only time I would take chariots in a game over 1000 points is when there is a road as chariots are then fast cavalry.  Even with roads tough chariots are a tough purchase because they really are too weak for thier points in normal and high point games.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: lazyj on May 24, 2009, 10:25:10 PM
I think a big drawback for the Guard is that they are often placed on the battlefield too early. Since the High Elves are almost always outnumbered, they usually have to place everything before their opponent. Which means their opponent can wait to see where the Celestial Guard is going and plan accordingly. Against Umenzi in particular, this is crushing. Celestial Guard? Meet my elephant.  ;D

If you're going to bring the Celestial Guard along, perhaps the only remedy is to go ahead and throw the Guard in the center of your battle line and damn the enemy to do his worst. The incredible mobility of the elves should allow you to dance out of any particularly dangerous situations, and your opponent (lacking this flexibility) can't pull the same kind of shenanigans he might on the flank.

Has anyone else had success with the Celestial Guard? (not counting Hidden Deployment  ;) )
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Quelmotz on May 25, 2009, 04:00:41 AM

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: **
Heavy Damage: *
Overall: *

I don't like these guys much.  First things first: they will never survive charging a halfway decent unit head on.  They're just too terrible on turns beyond the first.  Only four attack dice at most, and 2/2 defense, means they're not made for that.  What they are made for is charging in at flanks, and they do a passable job at it.  Unfortunately they're hampered by two major failings in that scenario: first, they are quite a lot of points for someone who can only engage in favorable circumstances, and second they only move 5".  Both of these are pretty crippling, and for a significant but not ridiculous 40 additional points, you could get Bowriders who are likely to get the job done charging a flank and both move faster and add support fire until they get there or if things go wrong.  These guys are core, but even in the very rare army where I don't want to run any line units, I'm going archers for my cores over these guys.  I basically only ever field them in round 1 of Kingdoms campaigns, where you aren't allowed to bring anyone but Core units so there aren't any other flanking units to choose from.

High Elf Chariots
Light Damage: ***
Heavy Damage: *
Small Point Games:****
Overall: ***

I really don't think you give chariots enough credit.  These are defiantly a small point game unit (500-1000) but in these games chariots have almost no rival and they are core giving you more options in these tight build games.

Not trying to shoot your ideas down, but even in these tight build games, I'll always take a ranger, if not for the core needs. But with cheap and tough battlesquads, you usually don't have to worry about the cores.

Lets look at the pros and cons:

Rangers:
261 points (5) 6/5  3/1  C: 13 MC: 5" Health: 4-2-2

Chariots:
252 points (4) 6/5  2/2  C:13 MC: 5" Health: 3-2-2

Pros for rangers:
-One more attack die - which doesn't make a huge impact but it is good. It allows an average of 0.33 damage more than (4) 6/5.
-Better defensive stats - this is actually a big plus, though it doesn't seem like it. It will prevent much more damage then 2/2.
-Dodgier against ranged - 4/1 destroys 3/2 (cavalry bonus).
-One more green health - who cares but I'll just list it. Also, one green health allows you to last surprisingly longer before having to take a rout check.

Cons for rangers:
-Costs more - 9 points isn't going to burn a hole in your pocket though.
-Thats it?

Pros for chariots:
-2 IMPACT HITS - This is a very good add-on
-Cavalry? Not really since its all factored in already.
-Core. As I mentioned above, battlesquads are much better core fillers.

Cons for chariots:
-Crap defence, will get annihilated by good archers (though they should be shooting at something else but who cares?)
-Other cons listed above (rangers).

So once again, I'll rarely pick chariots, but they're a great unit in certain circumstances, I won't deny that. 2 impact hits is awesome, and its very fast on a road. I'll almost never take them unless I have a really good army but I lack core and I'm sick of battlesquads (really I see them every match I play...).

Still, I'll give them */**/***. They can be amazing in rare circumstances, but usually fall to the wrath of the mighty rangers. They're not useless, that's definitely true, and I'll give them ***/**** for light damage. They're not that fast but 2 impact hits isn't anything to jeer about, especially for a reasonably cheap unit (compare to the not-so-amazing 2 impact hits for the Giant War Elephant - wait a GWE has 2 impact hits only?!?! *checks card* Overpowered chariots!! :P)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Niko White on May 28, 2009, 10:54:21 AM

Here's a tactics post I made in another thread that belongs here for the record.

Basic principles of High Elf play:
1) Your Battle Squads are good enough to stand up to a two's-company from units with (5) 5/5 offense or lower, at least for a little while.
2) Maneuver Mastery lets you protect important guys and get them where they need to be very fast.
3) Everyone dies if they get pinched.

So the plan is to set up so that the opponent has to do two's-company on your guys instead of pinching them, and take some fast hitters (Bowriders, Knights, Rangers) around the side/back.  Use the Battle Squads and other tank units like flypaper, trapping the opponents on them long enough to win the battle by pinching or hitting hard there or elsewhere.

You can do a lot of other cool things too.  A team up of High Elf Archers and Elder Blade Swordsmen will pretty much shred a medium or light unit, which can open up a hole in the line you can exploit.  If you have shorter lines than usual, either due to terrain or to low points, a single Archer or Bowrider off in the middle of nowhere can give the opponent no good choices: one unit will never pin it down because of Maneuver Mastery, but if they send two, they're sacrificing their numerical advantage on your line, as well as likely sending more points worth of guys out there to root the thing out.

The Battle Squad flavor text, "sometimes few must do the job of many," is basically the best guideline to playing the High Elves you can get.  Your focus needs to be on the fact that you're going to be outnumbered, and on how to use your few guys to best advantage.  That means very actively picking where you want to stall and where you want to smash in and break through.  This is an important thing for more or less any Battleground army to think about, but is absolutely essential for High Elves.  If you just take guys that look cool and try to smash in with them and hope for the best, you're going to die horribly, whereas that sort of thing can work with some of the nice heavy infantry factions like Dwarves or Orcs.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Zelc on May 13, 2011, 04:13:40 PM
Alright, gentlemen, you guys are seriously underrating the High Elf Chariots :).  I present to you, the power of MATH! :D

Let's take a look at what happens when we charge a 2/2 unit.  We'll look at 3 units: Chariots, Rangers, and Knights.

Chariots
Chariots are (4) 6/7 on the charge with 2 Impact Hits.  Against a 2/2 defense, they hit on 4's and 5's.  This results in an expected damage of 3.9!  They actually have a 65% chance of doing at least 4 damage on the charge turn, and another 25% chance of doing 3 damage.

Rangers
Rangers are (5) 6/6 on the charge.  Against a 2/2 defense, they hit on 4's and 4's.  This results in an expected damage of 2.2.  They only have a 13% chance of dealing 4 or more damage, and actually have a 60% chance of dealing less than 3 damage (basically they have an 82% chance of dealing 1-3 damage).

Knights
Knights are (6) 6/8 on the charge with 1 Impact Hit.  Against a 2/2 defense, they hit on 4's and 1 overkill.  This results in an expected damage of 4.8!  They have an 86% chance of dealing at least 4 damage, and another 11% chance of dealing 3.

From this, we can see that Chariots and Rangers serve completely different roles.  Rangers will give you some good consistent damage.  Chariots are more like the Poor Man's Knights.  You want to match them up against a wimpy unit, force that turn 1 rout check, and ideally get as many charges as possible before they die.  By the way, against a 2/1 unit, Chariots average 4.5 damage on the charge.  Knights average 5.0.  Against a 3/1 unit, it's even closer.  Chariots average 3.8, Knights average 4.0!!

What about after the Charge turn?  Against a 2/2 unit, assuming both are in the green, Chariots average 1.3 damage per turn and Rangers average 1.7 damage per turn.  Obviously Rangers have an advantage here because they have another green box and a slightly better defense profile.  But just from this simplistic view, it takes 4.25 turns of combat after the charge for the Rangers to catch up on damage.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on May 14, 2011, 11:24:20 PM
I always thought the Chariots where nifty.  The thing with them is that they are not a quite a line unit and not quite a pure cavalry unit either which could sometimes make for an odd fit.  If you can work around that (and good HE players certainly can) then they are certainly a good shock unit.  Getting the charge bonus on the flank can also be plain rude.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Niko White on May 15, 2011, 12:14:28 AM

Yeah, I'm fonder of them than I used to be.  Still not likely to take them in 2000+ games because the Knights just rule so hard, but they definitely have a useful place.  I definitely take them more often than I do Ranger variants these days.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: elgin_j on May 15, 2011, 03:26:49 AM
Anyone ever tried a 7 chariot army build?
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on May 15, 2011, 08:56:02 AM
Granted, I'm not a player who uses the high elves often, but when I do, I usually use the chariots.  I find when you take the high elves unless you load up on battlesquads and/or cygnants, your line is about 1-2 units less than your opponent.  Because of this, I usually can't justify the knights unit, I find them a bit expensive.  I know they are great, but I kinda feel about them the same way I do about Hawk Knights, not quite worth the cost.  The chariots are just great for 252 points.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gull2112 on May 16, 2011, 08:43:20 PM
The trick is to think of them as light cav with a hell of a punch. They are classic bullies, all too happy to dish it out, but they just can't take it coming back at them.

Which is why I don't think a seven chariot army build is ever something you'd build as a serious army. On turn two you'd have all these dazed enemy units in the yellow looking at an empty battlefield going, "WTF?"
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on May 16, 2011, 09:02:26 PM
I don't think I'd do it because I still think that the chariots are over priced for what they do (I can get a burst of speed out of an infantry unit for 1 CA and a heck of a lot more durability), but that being said, don't underestimate the power of an all cav charge.  I've done it with Hawkshold in Kingdoms and have had some success.  Granted, Hawkshold has Scouts along with Knights to go with those Light Cav, but the principle is the same:  somewhere on the line you'll bust through his units and then "its flankerin' time!"
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: elgin_j on May 17, 2011, 05:36:47 AM
I don't think I'd do it because I still think that the chariots are over priced for what they do (I can get a burst of speed out of an infantry unit for 1 CA and a heck of a lot more durability), but that being said, don't underestimate the power of an all cav charge.  I've done it with Hawkshold in Kingdoms and have had some success.  Granted, Hawkshold has Scouts along with Knights to go with those Light Cav, but the principle is the same:  somewhere on the line you'll bust through his units and then "its flankerin' time!"

I've done the same with a 2x Knight, 2 x Light Cav, 1 x Scout build and some Peasants cowering somewhere.  Not only was it spectacularly successful but it was a hell of a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on May 17, 2011, 11:46:41 AM
Kingdoms, once you get the Keep:  3 Scouts, 3 Light Cavalry, 2 Knights.  A lot of fun!
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on February 12, 2013, 03:36:08 PM
Just a question about maneuver mastery.  How does this work if you reform a unit?  Can you face it any which way and then move it's full movement if it's direct controlled?  Is that one of the ways MM works?
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Niko White on February 12, 2013, 03:59:11 PM
Just a question about maneuver mastery.  How does this work if you reform a unit?  Can you face it any which way and then move it's full movement if it's direct controlled?  Is that one of the ways MM works?

Yes, reforms are maneuvers so you can reform any number of times during your move for free.  HE suffer lately from the power of chumps but MM remains an absurd ability.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on February 26, 2013, 11:37:54 AM
Well, it wasn't likely that I was gonna play the High Elves at the Championship, but at the last minute I put down the Orcs and decided to play them.  I'm very glad I did.  I did very well overall, but unfortunately didn't play my best on Sunday.  Jaime got his revenge in the semis after I beat him in my first game.  It's nice that he finally won the thing and avoided the "bridesmaid dress". ;D 

Anyhoo, some of the things that I learned this weekend are:

1. Playing the High Elves you are going to have a headache making your armies because you KNOW that you will have less units in your force as compared to your opponent.

2. The new prices for the units at the championship I believe are spot on. (Thanks Kevin)

3. I think the Battlemages are a great unit.  The ability to draw cards can not be underestimated in a faction of quality units, it makes them that much better.  This is good because at some point in the game you WILL BE PINCHED and having defensive cards in your hand ready might allow them to hold 1-2 turns longer than they should.  This is what you NEED them to do.

4. Chariots are awesome against cavalry.  In many a game my opponent did not want to engage my chariots with their cavalry.  I remember two instances specifically during the weekend where one of my chariot units blew up a unit of antonians and a unit of Wolfriders.  In my game against Dave I maneuver mastered them and then hit a T-Rex on the flank and did 7 damage.  It was glorious.  I think I will try to incorporate them in more of my armies.  They seemed to really help.  More often I won when I had at least one in my army.  They hit really hard for only 252 points.

5. I need to roll much better with my ranged fire.  I think I would of had a better chance in two of my losses if I could hit the broad side of a barn. 

6. Maneuver mastery is just sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. 

7. The +1 dice charge, imho, does not over power the battle squads.

8. I will be playing these guys for a while now.  They are my new 2nd favorite faction.  (Ravenwood is 1st)

Bye, bye for now.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on February 26, 2013, 03:16:28 PM
Chariots make all other Light Cavalry units not called Numidians poop themselves.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on July 12, 2013, 04:17:16 PM
Quote
Elder Blade Battle Squad
Tank: ****
Light Infantry: *
Overall: ***/*

Sadly, these guys pay a hefty amount of points for an increased stat that I'm pretty convinced you'll never care about.  They cost 33 more points than a Battle Squad and they'll barely ever perform noticeably better.  They technically get three stars because they're still an amazingly good tank unit once they're on the table...but given you have a cheaper, in faction unit that is exactly the same defensively for fewer points, I'm not sure why you'd ever take them.  Frankly, in most situations, I think I'd rather have the command card.

Putting aside charge bonus issues, I must differ from this assessment.  I'd give them something more like:

Tank:  ***
Light Infantry:  ****
Overall:  ****


Putting aside charge bonus issues, they fight equally-priced units to a standstill in the simulator.  However, EB Battlesquads have a hidden strength:  every extra attack die is an attack die coming in at 6/6.  (While an extra attack die for opponents comes in at 5/5).  Moreover, look at the High Elf Command Card Deck:  4 of the 10 cards are pure extra dice (Attack Storm and Deadly Blow), while two other carsd (Subtle Mastery x2) are equivalent to an extra die and an impact hit assuming at least one swing misses.

In short, EB Battlesquads are boosted more by the High Elf Command Card deck than any other unit except for charging cavalry and the expensive EB Swordsmen and of course the Celestial Guard.  This means that, while in theory they fight at 220, in practice they'll usually overperform.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on July 12, 2013, 07:52:38 PM
In short, EB Battlesquads are boosted more by the High Elf Command Card deck than any other unit except for charging cavalry and the expensive EB Swordsmen and of course the Celestial Guard.  This means that, while in theory they fight at 220, in practice they'll usually overperform.
And the High Elven command deck is good at adding attack dice
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: iamJMAN00793 on July 14, 2013, 01:52:17 AM
So am I missing and errata? I'm hearing about extra dice on the charge and point cost changes.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on July 14, 2013, 08:53:59 AM
Nope, no official changes at this point.

We used a charge bonus or (+2) +0/+0 at the recent Dexcon tournament, which put the Battlesquads on steroids.

There's a near consensus that the charge bonus should go from power to dice, but disagreement as to what that dice bonus should looks like.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on February 04, 2014, 07:30:48 PM
Can somebody who knows the formula tell me what the mistake was when they made the High Elf faction?  Can't remember who told me but somebody said that they got a surcharge they shouldn't of got, right?

Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on February 04, 2014, 08:53:42 PM
pm sent.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on February 05, 2014, 11:56:02 AM
Can somebody who knows the formula tell me what the mistake was when they made the High Elf faction?  Can't remember who told me but somebody said that they got a surcharge they shouldn't of got, right?

Just to clarify:  there is not a consensus that the surcharge on the High Elves was a mistake.  It was explained to me as intentional.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on February 05, 2014, 10:23:31 PM
Can somebody who knows the formula tell me what the mistake was when they made the High Elf faction?  Can't remember who told me but somebody said that they got a surcharge they shouldn't of got, right?

Just to clarify:  there is not a consensus that the surcharge on the High Elves was a mistake.  It was explained to me as intentional.

Understood.

I do think it ended up being a mistake though.  Some of the units seem a bit too pricey.  
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on February 07, 2014, 05:14:32 PM
Look at these comparisons.  How are the High Elf units so much more expensive?  Look at the HEEB vs. DEHD comparison specifically.  Is the High Elf unit 53 points better?  I'm thinking no way.  What boosts up the cost of the HE units?  Is it the "unsexy target" or MM or both?  Just curious.

High Elf Swordsmen (5) 6/5 3/2  R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint  299 points
Dark Elf Highblood Blades (5) 6/5 3/1 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 255 points

That's a 44 point difference.

High Elf Elder-Blade Swordsmen (5) 6/6 3/2 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint  352 points
Dark Elf HighBlood Duskblades (5) 6/6 3/1 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 299 points

That's a 53 point difference.

High Elf Elder Blade Battle Squads (3) 6/6 3/2 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint 220 points
Dark Elf Standard Bearers (3) 6/6 3/1 R-0 C-14 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 202 points

That's an 18 point difference.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on February 07, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
And here's a more apples-to-apples comparison:

Quote
High Elf Swordsmen (5) 6/5 3/2  R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint  299 points

Dark Elf HighBlood Duskblades (5) 6/6 3/1 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 299 points

These units have an identical price.  If these units fight each other, they both get 5 dice at 3s and 4s to hit the other.  They have identical hit points and courage, and both have faction abilities.

The only difference in this head-to-head match is that the Dark Elves also are Fearsome, while the High Elves are not.

Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on February 07, 2014, 07:19:24 PM
Look at these comparisons.  How are the High Elf units so much more expensive?  Look at the HEEB vs. DEHD comparison specifically.  Is the High Elf unit 53 points better?  I'm thinking no way.  What boosts up the cost of the HE units?  Is it the "unsexy target" or MM or both?  Just curious.

High Elf Swordsmen (5) 6/5 3/2  R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint  299 points
Dark Elf Highblood Blades (5) 6/5 3/1 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 255 points

That's a 44 point difference.


Maneuver Mastery, Sprint, and Pain Touch do not factor into the cost of units at all.  The theory is that army abilities should be holistically balanced.

Most of that difference is the Toughness.  If you made the Highblood Blades Toughness 2, they cost 302 pts.  That's within 1% of the HE Swordsmen.  Which makes sense, because the Fearsome is 4% and the High Elf "unsexy target" modifier is 3%.

That T1 vs T2 really matters too.  I ran the DE and HE swordsmen through the combat simulator and the High Elf Swordsmen wins 66% of the time (28% DE win, and 6% is a draw).  The HE Swordsmen have a pretty substantial advantage from just that single point different.


Quote
High Elf Elder-Blade Swordsmen (5) 6/6 3/2 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint  352 points
Dark Elf HighBlood Duskblades (5) 6/6 3/1 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 299 points

That's a 53 point difference.


High Elf Elder Blade Battle Squads (3) 6/6 3/2 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" Maneuver Mastery/Precision/Sprint 220 points
Dark Elf Standard Bearers (3) 6/6 3/1 R-0 C-14 M-3.5" Pain Touch/Fearsome 202 points

That's an 18 point difference.

Same thing here.  If you made Duskblades and Standard Bearers Toughness 2, they'd cost 355pts and 240pts (respectively).  The Standard Bearers have a different Courage, which matters as well.


Also, the comparison is based on the assumption that the Dark Elves are balanced, which I'm of the opinion they are not.  Fearsome is much better when spammed like it is in that list, as instead of having 1-2 units taking a Fearsome check (i.e. when you take 1-2 monsters), you're forcing 5-6 checks, almost guaranteeing that someone somewhere will fail that check. 



Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on February 27, 2014, 10:52:52 AM
Brook and I where having a discussion about Cygnets last night.  We noted how rarely they pop up in High Elven builds.  I don't think they are a bad unit per se, but they certainly don't seem to fit in well with the rest of the faction.  I figure that if you have one it's almost always worth it to spring the extra 10 points to get a Battle Squad.  Does anyone ever use this unit much?
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gull2112 on February 27, 2014, 11:03:34 AM
I would really appreciate it if one of our scroll heads with greater facility with numbers than I could generate some side by side comparisons with Cygnets and EBs. Specifically, expected turns of survival before breaking, and damage per turn until said final event.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on February 27, 2014, 01:24:56 PM
Relative to Battlesquads, Cygnets do better vs. something smaller/weaker than they are, but worse vs. things tougher than they are.  With only 3 dice, a Battlesquad wil take a while to kill a twerp.

The problem is that in the typical game most opponents' typical units come in around 200-250.  Since you expect mostly uphill fight, you'll take mostly Battlesquads.

If I were playing a low-point-density game (e.g. 1500 open map) and I knew my opponent had a lot of sub-170 units they were likely to take, and I wasn't scared of range attacks, I'd likely find myself borrowing Cygnets.  That's a pretty rare combination, though:  vs. Umenzi or Rome or maybe Orcs (if lots of goblins are expected).  Maybe vs. some Alexander/Persia units once they come out, and one or two could be good vs. the Wuxing Salvaged & Fu dogs.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on February 27, 2014, 05:30:00 PM
I would really appreciate it if one of our scroll heads with greater facility with numbers than I could generate some side by side comparisons with Cygnets and EBs. Specifically, expected turns of survival before breaking, and damage per turn until said final event.

Ask and ye shall receive:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7435/12822297105_e9fb09b8b4_o.png)

These matchups were plugged into the combat simulator and run 500 times each.  So it's not super exhaustive but if I ran them 2000 times each, I'd be there all day.  So accept that there's about a little fudge factor in these numbers.

The "Turn (loss)" column is the average turn when the other unit beats the Battle Squad or Cygnets (either rout or destroyed).  The "Loss %" is a combination of the percentage of losing outright or both units routing/destroyed.

And this chart pretty sums up why the Cygnets often stay in the box:  the Battle Squads are just better when you're trying to tank.  There's relatively few times where the Cygnets win fights (i.e. have a lower "Loss %") at any significant percentage.  Yeah they more often in a few matchups, but we're mostly talking 1-2%, which is well within the margin for error.

But more importantly is that the Battle Squads take a lot longer to lose.  In all of the above cases, the Battle squad takes an average of 1.3 more turns before they die/rout.  And if your Battle Squad dies on his turn, that's a full extra turn of his guys standing there during your turn (vs. being able to pinch & final rush).


Figuring that Cygnets would chew through chumps faster, I ran a few chump matchups:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/12822296525_c15a12eac0_o.png)

Now the columns mean the opposite of above:  "Turns (win)" is the average number of turns for the Battle Squad or Cygnets to win and "Win %" is the percentage chance of the Cygnets/Battle Squads will win the matchups (i.e. not lose or not get a "both rout/die" result).

What is interesting is that although the Cygnets win faster (an average of 1.3 turns faster), they actually have a lower chance of winning.  That said, this lower chance is within the margin for error.

So, IF you know the other guy will take chumps and IF you can get the Cygnets matched up on them, then they are slightly better than taking Battle Squads for the same thing.  But if he doesn't take chumps and/or you can't get the Cygnets matched up on them, then you're better off taking the Battle Squad.

Then there's the context of the command cards.  Many of the HE command cards add extra dice, which can mitigate the primary weakness of those Battle Squads.  Further, the one thing the High Elves lack is a reliable Courage card (i.e. a reroll).  If I have to rely on Oathbound for when things get hairy, I want to stack it with a Cge 13.  But also, because I only have 2 Oathbounds in the deck, I may find myself having to take an unmodified Courage check and that's where being Cge 13 vs Cge 12 matters.

I think that Cge 12 on the Cygnets is probably what hurts them the most.  They're a Cge 12 unit in a Cge 13 faction (i.e. one that doesn't get a lot of Courage bail outs).  If the Cygnets were Cge 13, that would be a huge difference.  Cge 13 Cygnets vs Hawk Swordsmen would go from losing 70% of the time in 3.6 turns to losing 59% of the time in 4.0 turns. 

(Note:  again, losing here is defined as "not winning."  If you take out draws, the Cygnets only lose 47% of the time vs winning 41% of the time and getting a draw 12% of the time).


The long and short is it usually makes sense to take the Battle Squads as a default.  If I'm playing against Orcs, the Battle Squad is the safer bet.  I have to worry less about matchups and I can count on my Battle Squads to have about an equal chance of winning.  The only thing I sacrifice is I'll win slower.  But if I'm taking Battle Squads, I'm not heartbroken if they end up in a never-ending fight, because that was the whole plan anyway.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on February 28, 2014, 10:42:39 AM
Well, I think that I used Cygnets once or twice when I first started playing Battleground.  After reading the information that Corey just provided, I don't think I'll ever field them in my armies again.  The Battle-squads just perform their role so well, and for just 10 points more.  If the Cygnets somehow were around 100 points then perhaps they would be played more.

What about this?

Cygnets  (5) 5/4  2/1  Courage 13 Move 3.5"

Their value would be higher if the High Elven command deck had better courage cards also.  Not having a 13 courage makes them more likely they will rout in an army where units just can't rout without it being devastating.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on February 28, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
I think 100pts is too low.  If I could mulligan this unit, I'd probably make them Cge 13 and take away Maneuver Mastery (but let them keep Sprint).  That'd put them at about 179pts and you'd think about taking them for their 5 attack dice sometimes. 

At that point they'd do certain things differently.  They'd be more of a mainline unit and not really a tank.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gull2112 on February 28, 2014, 12:39:59 PM
I like Hannibal's suggestion for making them Courage 13 and getting rid of maneuver mastery. It makes for good flavor.

As an alternative, you could just take away maneuver mastery and give them a lower point total, but I don't like fudging with point totals because too little a difference and no one will care and too big a difference and people will care too much.

What if you run those numbers again with Courage 13 cygnets? (and, by the way, I really appreciate the effort)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on February 28, 2014, 07:28:05 PM
I'd cut the Cygnets to 3 or 4 dice and keep everything else the same.  That would put them on the tanky side, like Battlesquads, but would make them considerably cheaper.

Of course, I'd also make Oathbound suck less.  Oh wait--I'm doing exactly that in 3 weeks!   :)


Quote
Cygnets  (5) 5/4  2/1  Courage 13 Move 3.5"

Didn't we discuss this one?  This stat bar implies that the elves gave their young ones rusty knives and leather armor and sent them off to die.  I suppose you could call it retroactive Elven birth control, but I'm skeptical.   ;)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gull2112 on February 28, 2014, 11:06:29 PM
Ultimately there doesn't seem to be an obvious fix, and the faction doesn't suffer overly because it doesn't have a cheapo infantry. The tricky matter of trying to imagine flavor wise WHY an HE army would have cheapo units. They would do just what they do, have a few do the job of many. I'm in favor of backing off on this until somebody develops a compelling reason why something needs to be done with the Cygnets, and maybe at that time the solution will be more apparent.

And I could still see a campaign game special rule where due to desperate circumstances children are thrown into the lines.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: BubblePig on March 04, 2014, 11:27:03 AM
I cannot remember a single time I took Cygnets out of the box, nor even a time when I thought Cygnets would be good in this situation if only... Corey's analysis shows that Cygnets are better at winning against chumps which is helpful in illuminating when they might be worth the points, but I agree that this is so highly situational that as is they are doomed to be the eternal benchwarmers. Even more so than T-Rexes and Hydra, which because those units were so sexy they got fixed. I guess I am in a minority; I am such a miser that my eyes sparkle over the cheapo units more than the boutique units. I do not think a rule tweak is called for to fix unloved cheapos, but I would love love love it if cygnets and rat swarms got freed from the cobwebby part of the box.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gull2112 on March 04, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
If it comes to a fix I could see them being cheaper as both units are flavorful, just actually not worth the points. The question then becomes, "How much?" They are right where the formula says they should be, so any reduction is arbitrary.

The real question is, at what point will the reduction in cost open up other opportunities, thus making the cygnets worth the sacrifice of taking them?

I'm guessing 15-20, but I'm not a big HE player.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Dave-SWA on March 04, 2014, 10:35:25 PM
Jeez, this whole discussion is getting my blood pressure elevated!   >:(

If you take every faction's least 'sexy & desirable" 1-2 units, and tweak them to be more powerful/courageous/hardy/whatever, then eventually you will have a game where all the factions are too similar.  The online debate will then shift to which faction's special ability and/or unique command cards are over/under-powered, as that's all that will be left to discuss.

There is nothing wrong with having a few sub-optimal units purely for the sake of faction diversity, IMHO.

And what makes me even more annoyed is the mere thought of giving the friggin' High Elves a bump.  Maneuver Mastery is such a powerful ability (in the hands of a skilled player), it makes the HEs clearly one of the strongest overall factions.  The only thing that might keep them in check is a modest Rock-Scissors-Paper phenomenon between a few factions.

... Yet another reason that Lord Mortimer of Hawkshold is sending emissaries to other nations of the Battlegrounds, to rally allies for a campaign to exterminate all Elves and Elf-Lovers!
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on March 04, 2014, 11:10:43 PM
Dave, Dave, Dave........

Thems fighting words........I hope the Elves dominate this tourney.  Muuuuuwhahahaha!!!!


Some things I would change in the high Elven Deck if I could:

Attack Storm: Give two of your attacking units (+2) +0/+0

OathBound: Give all of your units +2 courage for the turn OR If one of your units fails a courage or rout check you may re-roll the check at +3.

Subtle Mastery: Your unit gets (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  After you roll to hit or damage you may change the result of one of the dice to a 1.  



 
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on March 05, 2014, 02:23:53 AM
Jeez, this whole discussion is getting my blood pressure elevated!   >:(

If you take every faction's least 'sexy & desirable" 1-2 units, and tweak them to be more powerful/courageous/hardy/whatever, then eventually you will have a game where all the factions are too similar.

With all due respect, I reject that false dichotomy.  We do not have to choose between undesirable units and the factions being to similar.  In fact, in this case, having the Cygnets be Courage 13 would actually make them more unique than they are now.  Currently, they're the bog standard "human" profile with -1 Yellow box. 

And I'm actually not advocating that we errata the faction.  I'm just saying that if I had either a time machine or the resources to do a 2nd edition of High Elves, the Cygnets would come out different.  I'd make them Cge 13, remove Maneuver Mastery, and probably make them Standard instead of Core (my reasoning being there's not enough young High Elves for them to be Core).

You'll note, this Cygnet unit would not end up filling the same role as Battle Squads.  When it comes to tanking, Battle Squads would still be better.  However, Cygnets would be a nice line unit that can put out moderate damage against a D:2/2 unit.  They'd fulfill a different role in the High Elf army, a role that I believe they were intended to fill, but just fall flat.

And I don't believe in the mantra that "every army has stay-in-the-box units" makes it okay.  Stay-in-the-box units are bad, fully stop. If you can avoid them as a game designer, you absolutely should.  And I certainly don't believe that the two choices are:  accept stay-in-the-box units or all factions will be the same.


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And what makes me even more annoyed is the mere thought of giving the friggin' High Elves a bump.  Maneuver Mastery is such a powerful ability (in the hands of a skilled player), it makes the HEs clearly one of the strongest overall factions. 

In this, we are in violent agreement.  High Elves are without a doubt one of the power factions.  What keeps them from being broken is that they don't have a very good Courage card.  Which is why I think its bat$#!@ insane to modify Oathbound to make it better.  The only thing that keeps High Elves from being too good is they lack a Courage reroll.


Some things I would change in the high Elven Deck if I could:

Attack Storm: Give two of your attacking units (+2) +0/+0

I couldn't support that.  A card that is 2/3 as good as Ferocity on two units, and you could play a Red card on top of it?  W
ay too good.


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OathBound: Give all of your units +2 courage for the turn OR If one of your units fails a courage or rout check you may re-roll the check at +3.

Wow, that's freakishly unbalanced.  Cold Blooded provides a reroll at +1 Cge.  This would be insanely better.  And the only thing that keeps High Elves from dominating is that Battle Squads don't get a reroll.


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Subtle Mastery: Your unit gets (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  After you roll to hit or damage you may change the result of one of the dice to a 1. 


Okay this one isn't on the wrong side of the power curve, but it'd make the card pushing the very bleeding edge.  Aspect of the Stag (which I think is too good in its eratta'd form) gives a unit about +1.4 dmg and this would give +1.25 dmg (assuming the same statline).

However, Subtle Mastery does provide a High Elf unit a +.83 damage, which is quite good.  So while I don't think the fix is broken, I don't think anything is wrong with the card such that it would need to be changed.


Sorry Brook, your love for the High Elves has blinded you, my friend.  They're quite a strong faction as is (even with the lame Cygnets) and neither they nor their cards need a single change.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Kevin on March 05, 2014, 10:38:31 AM
At Championship I'm letting Oathbound be pitched to auto-pass (pre-roll) one rout check or its regular function.  It really sucks that when the first Battlesquad hits the yellow you have to either take that 1/4 that your line gets a hole blown into it...or you play a card that won't even help half the time.

But that aside, the High Elf cards are fine.  If you think Subtle Mastery needs an upgrade it means you aren't taking enough Elder Blade Battlesquads.  That card is pure murderous beauty when played on those guys!



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Subtle Mastery: Your unit gets (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  After you roll to hit or damage you may change the result of one of the dice to a 1.


Okay this one isn't on the wrong side of the power curve, but it'd make the card pushing the very bleeding edge.  Aspect of the Stag (which I think is too good in its eratta'd form) gives a unit about +1.4 dmg and this would give +1.25 dmg (assuming the same statline).

One correction here.  Wuxing's Ensure Victory gives (+1) +0/+0 and changes a to-damage die to a 1.  Assuming 5 dice with 3s to hit and wound, it doesn't average 1.25 damage.  If you get 2 hits, there's a 25% chance that both of the hits damage before any die modifications, in which case changing one die to a 1 is worthless (except that it'll prevent "Roll with the Blow" from being playable).  Even with 3 hits there's a still a 1/8 that they all damage and changing to die to a 1 is all-but-worthless.   The exact calculation is a beast, and I'm feeling lazy, but the card should average between 1.0 and 1.1 damage, not 1.25.

Being able to play it on either the hit or the damage is incrementally better, but not much.  You're still facing the choice of whether the probability that your extra hit doesn't convert to damage is bigger or less than you not being able to get an extra damage.

(In the case of Wuxing, the fact that the die is often Reliable cuts both ways:  it makes the extra die better, but makes the probability that turning a die into a 1 is worthless higher, basically canceling out.)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on March 05, 2014, 11:03:27 AM
There is nothing wrong with having a few sub-optimal units purely for the sake of faction diversity, IMHO.
While I agree, I'm thinking that when factions are released nobody says "this unit sucks, but let's leave it in anyways".  It usually comes to light later that certain units aren't useful.  For the record I don't think the Cygnets suck, I just feel that they are an oddball fit in the High Elven faction.  Sort of the same way that I feel Halfblood Levies are an oddball fit in the Dark Elven faction despite the fact that on their own they are a fine meat-and-potatoes type unit.

.....to rally allies for a campaign to exterminate all Elves and Elf-Lovers!
Is it illegal in New York to be an Elf Lover?  Or do you have to keep it behind closed doors and hope your conservative neighbors never find out?
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on March 05, 2014, 11:19:01 AM
It really sucks that when the first Battlesquad hits the yellow you have to either take that 1/4 that your line gets a hole blown into it...or you play a card that only won't even help half the time.

I used agree with this sentiment, but I've found that there are a couple of ways to prevent this from being game-ending for the High Elf player.  Keeping a Battle Squad behind your line as reserve can deal with that, but also you can set up objectives (and or maneuver) to put enough space between units that you can't get pinched the next turn if one of your Battle Squads blows a check and routs.  The latter is much easier to pull off now that the flank-from-front has been banished, and I have successfully defended the whole board with just 7 units this way.

Even the simple act of when you engage matters.  Its usually worth it to spend a CA to delay the fight to make him final rush.  Delaying taking that check by one turn is the difference between him pinching immediately or not.  

My experience is that lacking a better Courage reroll is pretty much the only thing that keeps Battle Squad-spam in check.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on March 05, 2014, 11:42:24 AM
...but also you can set up objectives (and or maneuver) to put enough space between units that you can't get pinched the next turn if one of your Battle Squads blows a check and routs.  The latter is much easier to pull off now that the flank-from-front has been banished, and I have successfully defended the whole board with just 7 units this way.

Would you happen to have an illustration of that in one of your past session reports?  I've seen Niko do this and I've done it from time to time myself using different factions, I'm just curious to see your spin on it.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on March 05, 2014, 12:24:58 PM
Sadly, I can't find a clear-cut example.  There's a few, but they have some extenuating circumstances.  For example here (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8451/7985545727_1844ffe620_c.jpg), I pull it off, but my opponent was using a refused flank strategy, kinda cheating to say you did it when the other essentially grants you half the board.   ;)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on March 05, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
I hear ya on that.  Thanks for looking!
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Dave-SWA on March 05, 2014, 10:33:35 PM
Brook Villa is an Elf-Lover!
 :o
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on March 06, 2014, 07:18:29 AM
Brook Villa is an Elf-Lover!
 :o


Sure am.  I admit it.  You say that like it's a bad thing........ ::)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Dave-SWA on March 10, 2014, 07:13:34 PM
Thank you to Ron for creating a new thread, "Unloved Units", to continue the discussion beyond High Elves.
Found here:

http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=qtahf9p3eao7hun4e38tiena72&topic=9803 (http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=qtahf9p3eao7hun4e38tiena72&topic=9803)
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on July 08, 2014, 02:14:47 PM
The High Elf card Oathbound totally sucks.  This card needs some sort of tweek.  Something that gives a reroll for a failed courage check. 

I know that over all the High Elf units have good courage, but they PAY for it. 
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on July 08, 2014, 03:28:47 PM
The High Elf card Oathbound totally sucks.  This card needs some sort of tweek.  Something that gives a reroll for a failed courage check. 

Heh.  I respectfully disagree.  I think High Elves are quite a powerful faction, contending with being the strongest faction in the game.  I thinking giving them a post-roll Courage reroll would push them over that edge.  They don't need help, IMO.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on July 08, 2014, 05:00:35 PM
Well you're entitled to you opinion but I respectfully disagree with you.   The High Elves need a courage bailout more than any other faction in my opinion.  Especially if you don't spam Battle-squads.   It makes sense to me that keeping your engagements and not routing would be MORE important to factions that usually have less units than their opponents.  Do you ever see High Elves having back up units?  If you have, I bet it was a rare occurrence. They just don't have the units to spare for that kind of thing.  That is why I say, it would be nice if two cards in the deck were courage rerolls, which would usually mean you could save one engagement a game.  In my mind this is totally fair.  Geez, look at all of these historical armies that have come out and that are coming out.  They all have cards that help with courage.  Almost all of Alexander's command cards help with courage and quite a few of the Persia faction have them also.  How about Rome and Carthage?  Yup, they got it where it counts also.  I guess some of the people that created these armies considered it pretty important not to have units rout.  All I'm asking is for two cards in the deck to help with this. Even the Dark Elves have a courage bailout card, and it happens to be one of the best.  Everyone seems to think that a 13 courage across the board is really strong, but it's not as strong as having the ability to save a unit that just rolled a 13(or worse) on it's first rout check.

Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on July 08, 2014, 05:30:14 PM
Do you ever see High Elves having back up units?  If you have, I bet it was a rare occurrence.

Well, most of my games that you see here are playtest games and spanned the pow-charge-to-dice-charge transition.  Taking all that into account, its ended up being about 1-in-3 games that are posted on this forum.  Not common, I'll grant you, but not exactly rare either.


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That is why I say, it would be nice if two cards in the deck were courage rerolls, which would usually mean you could save one engagement a game.  In my mind this is totally fair.  Geez, look at all of these historical armies that have come out and that are coming out.  They all have cards that help with courage.  Almost all of Alexander's command cards help with courage and quite a few of the Persia faction have them also. 

Actually, Persia only has 2 Courage cards.  Which you have to play in Movement & Command Phase.

Alexander has more, but there's a couple of caveats there.  First, most of those Courage cards are +1 Courage to a unit.  Yes, there is a dedicated reroll, but that's only 2 cards.  And this sort of thing is thematic to Alexander.  Second, many of Alexander units are flimsier than High Elves.  The Cge 13 cavalry are D:1/2 or D:2/2.  The Core infantry are all Cge 12.  Granted the Foot Companions have a good defensive stats and a lot of boxes, but Alexander lacks both a solid unit like HE Swordsmen or a cost effective tank like Battle Squads.


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How about Rome and Carthage?  Yup, they got it where it counts also. 

True, but again, these factions also lack the things that High Elves get. 

What I'm saying is that just because Faction A gets something is not (by itself) justification for Faction B having that something.  You need to demonstrate that the faction is weak because of that absence. 

It'd be like arguing Carthage needs to get Sprint because High Elves, Orcs, and Dwarves all have some special rule that gives them a +1 MC.  And that the creators of those factions decided that +1 MC is important, therefore Carthage should get it as well.  But the rebuttal is "well, is Carthage so crippled that it's an unplayable faction by its absence?"  If no, then the faction doesn't need that +1 MC ability.

That's what's going on here.  Yes, Oathbound is kind of a lame card (most of the time).  But the faction doesn't need a Courage reroll because its an incredibly powerful faction as is.

Can I ask what happened over the weekend that caused you to post your opinion?  Did you lose a game because you either held the card in your hand?  (That happens to me a lot:  there's an urge to not play it to benefit just 1 unit, but then I fail that important check by 1-2). 



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Even the Dark Elves have a courage bailout card, and it happens to be one of the best. 

Well...I'd say that in most cases the Dark Elves shouldn't be used as precedent for anything.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on July 09, 2014, 01:14:37 PM
High Elves have expensive units, so that means that you will have less units.  Therefore, it is more important for their units NOT to rout.  A High Elf Elderblade Swordsmen unit routing is catastrophic and a unit of goblins routing usually isn't.  Factions that have many cheap units(i.e historicals) with command cards that help with courage, in my opinion have a great advantage over factions that don't.   That's where the trend is obviously going in this game.  All you have to do is look at the factions coming out to see it.  Having good units with 13 courage isn't enough to compete with that.  Just like you said, it would only be two cards in the deck.  Oathbound should be changed.

My suggestion would be:

+2 courage for three units(before rolling courage)

or

a reroll for one unit that fails.



Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: GoIndy on July 09, 2014, 02:58:38 PM
This is humorous, because everytime I hear stuff like this, I think of spoils.  I had spoils, both boxes marked, on one of my units in a game this weekend.  I promptly failed.  Now THAT's BS. 

Anyway, back to oathbound.  Hell, I think that card is decent.  The biggest weakness is that you have to play it proactively instead of reactive.  (which, I'll agree, is a big difference)  I wouldn't change it at all.
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on July 09, 2014, 03:30:24 PM
The issue I see with Oathbound is that it can either be incredible or mediocre.  It's seldom "decent".

Incredible = You have to roll multiple courage checks this turn.  Especially awesome if it's 3 or more.  Also awesome if your Undead opponent plays Wave of Terror and you've got a ton of engaged units.

Mediocre = You only have 1 courage check.  Even worse if you only have one courage check on a critical unit but you know you're probably going to have multiple courage checks next turn.  But you really need that one unit to pass it's courage check now...
Title: Re: Repost: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on July 09, 2014, 03:31:30 PM
High Elves have expensive units, so that means that you will have less units.  Therefore, it is more important for their units NOT to rout.  A High Elf Elderblade Swordsmen unit routing is catastrophic and a unit of goblins routing usually isn't.

I don't agree with that at all.  I think that the context is much more important.  If those Goblins are right next to some Orc Axemen that are about to get pinched and the EB Swordsmen have only relatively unimportant Battle Squads next to them, then the Goblins routing is much more catastrophic.  In fact, I often target Goblins as the weak point to hit so that I can start flanking & pinching the Orc line.


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Factions that have many cheap units(i.e historicals) with command cards that help with courage, in my opinion have a great advantage over factions that don't.   That's where the trend is obviously going in this game. 

Actually, I'd argue the opposite.  With the flank-from-front gone and the dice charge, the game seems to be trending away from swarm armies.


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Just like you said, it would only be two cards in the deck.  Oathbound should be changed.

It would be two cards that would boost an already very powerful faction.  And I have yet to see evidence that this faction is in need of that boost.

If I may ask, what happened in your games?  How did you use (or not use) Oathbound?  Was it a case of failing a check after Oathbound was used?  Or not playing it and then failing the Cge 13 check?
Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on September 20, 2018, 08:32:04 AM
I'm wondering if the configuration of the High Elf Spearmen unit could be changed.  It seems as though that unit stays in the box with most builds. Maybe it could be changed to something like this:

(5) 6/5  3/2 R-0 C-12 M-3.5"  5G/2Y/2R

(+1/+2 vs. cavalry, large)

Or whatever.

Just a thought.  It's current cost of 334 points is quit prohibitive.  Especially in this faction where everything is quit expensive.

Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on September 20, 2018, 04:31:35 PM
Yeah, HE Spears where always the kind of unit I wanted to fit into a build, but could rarely justify actually doing it.  I rarely use them and I rarely see others use them.
Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: Hannibal on September 20, 2018, 06:19:09 PM
And I don't think there's going to be a fix for that.  Any high elf spear unit is going to be at least 300pts.  There's just no getting around units with stats like that costing any less.  And for that amount of points, it can't sit back and play the "come at me bro" game with other units.  It needs to get stuck in and start earning its points.

But when you factor in the effectiveness of Elder Blade units for not much more in points, the HE Spearmen just don't seem like a good investment.  If you want High Elf spearmen to be seen then they have to be like Battle Squads. 

Or we need to give Cygnets spears.  That's been my vote for a long time.
Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on September 20, 2018, 08:45:04 PM
Ok then.

What about this:

(3) 6/5  3/2 R-0 C-13 M-3.5" 3G/3Y/2R

Keyword: Spears

Something weird like (+2) when holding with all the spear bonuses.

You could even make them M-5" like those historical guys......Agemi or something like that. 
Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on September 21, 2018, 08:48:04 AM
I had an idea for a cheap unit that would make sense in the high elf army.  Since High Elves are more regimented and organized than their cousins the Wood Elves, perhaps they would have kennels with trained Cooshie (Elven dogs).


Cooshie Pack

(3) 6/5 2/2  R-O  C-13 M-5  3G/2Y/2R

Give them the Wolfkin ability (+3 def., +2 vs. routing, reform)

Woof, Woof...



Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: RushAss on September 24, 2018, 04:07:46 PM
I had an idea for a cheap unit that would make sense in the high elf army.  Since High Elves are more regimented and organized than their cousins the Wood Elves, perhaps they would have kennels with trained Cooshie (Elven dogs).

Cooshie Pack

(3) 6/5 2/2  R-O  C-13 M-5  3G/2Y/2R

Give them the Wolfkin ability (+3 def., +2 vs. routing, reform)

Woof, Woof...

Cool idea, but I think we can come up with a better name for the unit than that.  Yeah yeah yeah, I know the old D&D Coshies.  But I think think we should aim for something along the lines of Elf Hounds, Eldar Hounds... something like that.
Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on September 24, 2018, 11:38:07 PM
I had an idea for a cheap unit that would make sense in the high elf army.  Since High Elves are more regimented and organized than their cousins the Wood Elves, perhaps they would have kennels with trained Cooshie (Elven dogs).

Cooshie Pack

(3) 6/5 2/2  R-O  C-13 M-5  3G/2Y/2R

Give them the Wolfkin ability (+3 def., +2 vs. routing, reform)

Woof, Woof...

Cool idea, but I think we can come up with a better name for the unit than that.  Yeah yeah yeah, I know the old D&D Coshies.  But I think think we should aim for something along the lines of Elf Hounds, Eldar Hounds... something like that.

Vu le vu cooshie a vec mwa ses swah!!!!
Title: Re: High Elves Units and Tactics
Post by: gornhorror on September 25, 2018, 10:59:51 AM
Here's another permeation of the COOSHIE PACK!!!!!


(5) 5/4 2/2  R-O  C-13 M-5  3G/4Y/3R

Not as much bite, but definitely more durable.