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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => Faction Discussions => Topic started by: Niko White on February 23, 2009, 04:46:49 PM

Title: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 23, 2009, 04:46:49 PM
Orc Tactics and Units Thread

Time for some Orcs.  I'll start with my usual unit overview deal.  Intro cribbed from my High Elves thread, thankfully saved by the archival expertise of Ajax:

I'll list each unit and give a number of stars to each general role I think one might try to use it in, from 1-5.  If I don't list a given role it means I think it can't do that, but I could always be wrong or forgetful, so please respond and post your own if you like!

We can also use this thread for Orc tactics.  It has been a while since I played the Orcs very seriously, but I've never let such things stop me before.

If you have a post you've made in another thread that you think fits in this one, feel free to post it; I think it would make some sense to have everything in one place.

General guideline to what the stars mean:

*:  It looks like this unit might be able to do this, but I've found that this is a trap.
**:  In select cases, the unit might not completely embarrass you trying to play this role.
***:  The unit plays the role competently.  Generally it won't work miracles, but it justifies its points in most games.
****:  The unit is excellent at that role.  I'll try to "upgrade" other units in that role to this one if I can.
*****:  Centaurs.

Stars are points-adjusted, so you'll often see a unit that's better on the table getting fewer stars at a role, because it isn't enough better to make the points worth it in my opinion.

Roles:

Tank: This is a unit you use to soak up hits and last long enough for relief to arrive, without planning on it doing significant damage.
Light Infantry:  This is a unit that you plan to have last just long enough to get help, and maybe do a bit of damage while it's at it.  It won't stand up to a real damage unit, but it will prevent opposing tanks from embarrassing you by pinching in.  I think of this as the "offensive" version of the tank unit.
Heavy Infantry:  The game's generalist units.  They have good attack and defense stats, but neither is enough of a standout that they aren't capable of both dealing and taking some damage.  These are the non-specialist guys who you plan to use to cover contingencies and things like that.
Light Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in, either against weak units or into a pinch.  This plan involves breaking them on the first turn because the unit will be in trouble if you don't.
Heavy Damage:  This is a unit you use to charge in and beat people up on the charge turn, but unlike Light Damage, you're trusting them to last a few turns if things go wrong.
Fire Support:  This is a unit you use to add fire where it is needed.  You don't count on them to get much done on their own, but combined with a reasonable infantry unit or other fire support, they can create holes in the opposing line and get things going.
Artillery:  The big guns.  These units add fire support, but the fire is meaningful enough that you are hoping they'll do big damage over the course of the game, rather than serving a dedicated support role.
Other:  Sometimes I'll put in another category, like "Centaurs" or "Bowriders" and explain it in the comments.

I'll also give every unit an overall score indicating how often I tend to play it.

Orc Unit Review

Crazed Goblins
Tank: *
Light Infantry: **
Backup Unit: ***
Overall: **

Every time people use these as a front line unit against me, I am thankful they are giving away free points.  Orcs aren't set up to have a 5" move line; you could do a Crazed Goblins + Trolls line with Goblin Bowmen filling in the cores if you wanted, but that's firmly in the realm of the silly; these guys may never rout, but any halfway decent unit will kill them in a few turns.  In order to use Crazed Goblins to good effect, you need to use the Indirect Path rule (one of the most handy in the game.)  If a unit is on close behind a slower moving unit, you can choose if it tries to go around or not each turn.  This lets you do two useful things with Crazed Goblins.  First, you can put them on the flanks and have them start swinging out before the lines meet, ready to pinch in.  This is good if it works, but generally low percentage because if the other player has any plans for those flanks, the goblins are likely a speed bump at best; the kind of units people put on flanks tend to be the high damage/low toughness types that are ideal for killing Crazed Goblins.  My personal favorite plan is to sit 3 or so of these guys behind your 7 unit line and let them act as backup units, either using the actual backup unit rule or just having them move into gaps.  A big issue with Orc line units is that they are built to win long fights but their courage is questionable enough that they'll sometimes suffer embarrasing routs.  The Crazed Goblins will only step in for 2-3 attacks against even an average unit, but those turns can make a big difference.  In this role, they're the emergency field dressing of the injured Orc line.

Goblin Raiders
Light Infantry: **
Overall: *

I hate these guys lots.  They take tons of damage from everything and they rout all the time.  If you really need a light dude to fill out your line, so be it, but you're better off with Crazed Goblins for any light infantry use that isn't front line (like a pinch threat) because 5" speed is good and at least the Crazed Goblins will give all 8 health for the cause and cost way less.

Goblin Bowmen
Fire Support: ***
Overall: **

These guys are actually one of the better fire support units in the game.  They are so bad in every respect that isn't their attack profile that they are dirt cheap for said attack profile.  The reason they only get two stars overall is that I find affording a respectable Orc line to be very difficult, which means I can rarely budget for much fire support, so I don't field them all that often.  If you want a support unit, these guys are a great go to option.

Goblin Spearmen
Light Infantry: **
Light Spearmen: ***
Overall: **

If you have to bring Goblin basic infantry, try your best to make it these dudes.  They still rout all the time and get slaughtered by anything, but at least they get a real person attack profile and spears, so if the opponent has some cavalry, they have to either bother to shoot them or be a bit afraid of charging into them.  They'll die in the exchange, but might cripple or rout a way better unit, which is far, far ahead of the likely outcome of the Raiders.

Goblin Wolf Riders
Light Damage: ****
Anything Else: *
Overall: ****

I almost gave these guys five stars, it is very close.  I consider them the archetypal light damage unit, absolutely devastating at that role for very little price.  They hit amazingly hard for less than 200 points and if you lash them they get up to a staggering 8.5" move, flying across the battlefield to smash into more or less anything.  If that smash is a flank or pinch, there are few units in the game that will walk away without at least a rout check.  They're incredibly fragile to make up for it (though effectively 3/2 vs shooting due to the cavalry and fast moving modifiers, so at least they're unlikely to be scattered by archery) but are basically a cruise missile.  They'll run into something, kill it, and likely die themselves, but who cares?  A stellar unit.

Orc Swordsmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: **
Overall: ***

A workhorse of the Orc line.  They'll rarely win fights at any speed, since they average just over 1 damage per turn against even 2/2 guys, but they don't die easily.  They have two black marks against them: they are pretty expensive for a dedicated tank, and their courage is highly questionable.  This latter is the real issue: while Orc Swordsmen will eventually win against most line units if no one routs, they often won't actually win because they'll run away first.  Most guys with this level of toughness have more courage tricks than two copies of I Kill You Meself, good though that card is.  This means you can't really just trust your line of beefy Orcs to crash in and win it; even with your quality advantage, these guys are likely on a clock.  Nonetheless, they have a strong A plan of not dying until they can get bailed out, and if the opponent's line has a weak spot, an Orc Swordsman can definitely punch through, especially with the help of command cards.  Once one does punch through, you're almost assured of a good pinch with the 5" final rush range from the Lash.

Orc Spearmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: **
Overall: **

They're a straight upgrade on Orc Swordsmen, unfortunately they upgrade something you don't care about much in ordinary circumstances.  As noted above, even though Orc line units are generally going to be as good or better than the enemy, their tendency to rout means you can't really count on them to win fights.  The Orc Spearmen get no courage boost or survivability bonus, only an attack bonus, and a minor enough one that they still might well not win the fight fast enough.  If you expect large or cavalry units these guys can be a good deal, but unlike the spears in Hawks or Ravenwood, I wouldn't suggest them as a matter of course.

Orc Crossbowmen
Fire Support: **
Tank: *
Heavy Infantry: **
Overall: **

I find these guys really hard to use.  Their ranged attack is really weak if they advance, and being a 1/3 with 12 courage means they are surprisingly fragile for Orcs.  You can use them to help work out a stand and shoot line, but Orcs really aren't suited for that kind of thing, because your front line is too expensive to let you get enough artillery.  The fact that they get offensive rather than defensive bonuses also doesn't help at all; Dwarf Crossbows are IMO significantly better because a shooting uint that turns into a tank is a big step up over a shooting unit that turns into a beater.  That said, they're the only access the Orcs have to a 5/6, so if that's what you think you need, then these guys are there for you.  The courage and skill edge means I'd rather have Axemen in most cases, though.

Orc Axemen
Heavy Infantry: ****
Overall: ****

A very nice attacking heavy infantry unit, and in my opinion one of the reasons to play Orcs.  The point of courage makes a big difference, and (5) 6/6 is a very powerful attack line; this is one of the cheapest units in the game to pack that kind of punch.  It also works very well with the Orc command cards and Lash; dice bonuses love a profile that starts this good.  The lowered defense skill over other Orc units is a bummer, but IMO the courage makes up for it and you need someone who can break through in good time, and these guys will do it for you.  They're not as good a unit in abstract as Marauders, obviously, but the extra point of power and significant points discount means they compare pretty well, especially against tough opposition.  They're competent tanks or flank attackers as well, but in both cases you can clearly do better with other Orc units, so I'd tend to suggest trying to match them up against a weaker defender mid-line to keep the opponent guessing.

Goblin Bomb Chucker
Artillery: **
Special Hilarity Factor: *****
Overall: **

This guy is great fun, but on any serious calculation he's pretty seriously lacking.  The fact that you can't play command cards on him is totally understandable, but basically ruins his utility as a unit.  Artillery needs to get a lot from its dice, and if your opponent can play purple cards unopposed, then that's clearly not going to happen.  The one place where this is quite nice is if the opponent is bringing Large or especially Colossal units; sure, they almost always have high toughness so you aren't expecting great returns, but you essentially can't miss most of them, they're often hard to play command cards on, and every point you get before you engage them is gold.  This goes double for the Hydra, which is a great target for this guy, who hits it on 4s and 3s even at extreme range, and possibly with a boatload of dice.

Orc Marauders
Heavy Infantry: ****
Killing Elves: *****
Overall: ****

The other headlining source of Orcish breakthroughs, the Marauders get huge numbers of high quality dice without giving up defense, and gain a point of courage and better health distribution in the process.  The only down side is that they are expensive in a faction where all your good dudes are already difficult to afford, so they can be very hard to support, especially in smaller games.  Still, you need to have some way to create opportunities, and they can be very good at it, the real question is if you want them over Axemen.  This depends a lot on the situation and points, of course, but don't assume that just because you can afford them Marauders are worth the extra 67 points.  Orcs have an easier time adding dice than improving their dice with their unique command cards, and against Dwarves, other Orcs, or similar 3 toughness units, the 5 strength is a major down side.  Even ignoring all that, +2 dice vs. +1 power is probably a wash in terms of damage, so you risk paying, in the end, 67 points for +1 defense skill that might not matter for what you really want to do with them.  That said, if you're facing Ravenwood, Umenzi, or even the High Elves, the Marauders will be fantastic.  In general, you can't go that far wrong with either, but if enemy shooting is a possibility, the 2 defense skill on the Marauders is huge.  Also, while the Axemen are probably mathematical favorites in a lot of situations, picking up 7+ dice is just so fun.

Trolls
Heavy Infantry: ***
Heavy Damage: **

These guys are fine, but they're pretty awkward to use, because once they get out of the green, they're deeply unreliable (since they might rout to a single point of damage,) and prone to being seriously capped by dice.  If you make sure you have a purple card for them, they'll do good work, but for 406 points I hate having to dread them losing their last green hit so much.  They're also quite comparatively fragile for their cost, since they're large and thus easy to hit with shooting, but don't have the benefit of being too tough for normal bowfire like lots of large units.  That said, 7 strength is clearly huge against guys like Zombies and opposing giant monsters, and the regeneration can be very nice to have.  The other interesting aspect of these guys is that they can sort of pretend to be Knights, their speed allowing them to lurk behind the lines and act as a flanking threat.  They'll almost certainly win that flank unless the opponent has some serious cavalry out there (or another giant monster) but the 400 point price tag can make it very difficult to afford that given how hard it is to fill out your line.  On the other hand, if you can fit it, he can really deeply threaten a flank, and the ability to lash him to 6" makes him a very solid threat.

Discuss Orcs here!  Some tactics tips may follow.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: lazyj on February 23, 2009, 05:11:59 PM
Goblin Spearmen are merely a 1 turn delay for Heavy Cavalry if they aren't set to Hold. If there's even a hint of a chance that they will engage Cavalry they need to be on Hold. In our last game a unit of Goblin Spears did exactly 1 damage to my Knights who annihilated them in a single turn - I believe this was straight up without command cards. This is almost certainly because they were charging in against charging Knights.

Though "always on Hold" is a good rule of thumb for most Spearmen, it is especially true for the low-Courage, low-Defense Skill Goblins. They are really not going to last against most Cavalry units so they have to maximize their time for damage.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on February 23, 2009, 05:24:34 PM
Orcs are my favorite faction, probably because when I was into minis years ago I had a 500+ figure army of 'em! I have actually won less than 50% of the time with them however, which is more a reflection on my skill than anything else. As someone who uses Orcs a lot (I like to call them the big 'O'  ;D ) I was eagerly waiting for their attention from Niko.

I agree with everything he says, and let me add this:

Lash, lash, lash. Not always and indescriminately, but always be thinking about it. The extra die is cool, but the extended charge range is REALLY cool!

The Goblin Bomb Chucker is always such a threat and yet so brittle, that I rarely get to use it. Its always selected by enemy archers and that's that. When my opponent has let it alone he has always rued the day...

Hordes of cheap goblins are great for flanking, and having more units than the enemy, and that means a longer line, but you need to have them supported by Trolls, Marauders, or Axemen.

The orcs play fast. You do not want to get into a situation where you're maneuvering about and/or dilly-dallying around. They need to get there fast and close and kill.

The best use I ever got out of crazed goblins was to break up my opponent's line because he moved to intercept them and to pinch. They died of course, but his line was so fouled that my regular guys cleaned house. That worked... Once. James will never let that happen again.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 23, 2009, 07:13:21 PM
Goblin Spearmen are merely a 1 turn delay for Heavy Cavalry if they aren't set to Hold. If there's even a hint of a chance that they will engage Cavalry they need to be on Hold. In our last game a unit of Goblin Spears did exactly 1 damage to my Knights who annihilated them in a single turn - I believe this was straight up without command cards. This is almost certainly because they were charging in against charging Knights.

Though "always on Hold" is a good rule of thumb for most Spearmen, it is especially true for the low-Courage, low-Defense Skill Goblins. They are really not going to last against most Cavalry units so they have to maximize their time for damage.

This is actually one of the few situations where I agree with you.  Goblin Spears will only do any good holding.  Spearmen on Close are usually the right play, though, given the rest of your line is closing.  Sure, they get a "penalty" on the charge turn, but I'd gladly take (-1) +0/+1 in most cases.  Getting charged by cavalry is about the only time you want to put a premium on holding with spears.  You're at least a little happier holding them than other people, but don't feel like there's any particular need if it doesn't make sense in context.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: lazyj on February 23, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
Whenever possible, I try to deploy spearmen directly across from big nasty things and do a "Hold with Objective" move so that they keep up with the line but are ready to skewer bad guys who charge them. If there are no big nasty things then they are fine to charge with everyone else.

Otherwise, yes, (-1)0/+1 is certainly acceptable.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 24, 2009, 12:11:52 AM
Whenever possible, I try to deploy spearmen directly across from big nasty things and do a "Hold with Objective" move so that they keep up with the line but are ready to skewer bad guys who charge them. If there are no big nasty things then they are fine to charge with everyone else.

Otherwise, yes, (-1)0/+1 is certainly acceptable.

Yep, of course, if you are going to get the bonus, hold is great :)  I just notice a lot of players who are convinced that their spears should always hold because they see the "penalty" to dice on the back of the card, so I am vigilant about pointing out that it is really more like a bonus on turns beyond the first!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Jaels on February 24, 2009, 12:13:31 PM
Crazed Goblins
Tank: *
Light Infantry: **
Backup Unit: ***
Overall: **

Every time people use these as a front line unit against me, I am thankful they are giving away free points.  Orcs aren't set up to have a 5" move line; you could do a Crazed Goblins + Trolls line with Goblin Bowmen filling in the cores if you wanted, but that's firmly in the realm of the silly; these guys may never rout, but any halfway decent unit will kill them in a few turns.  In order to use Crazed Goblins to good effect, you need to use the Indirect Path rule (one of the most handy in the game.)  If a unit is on close behind a slower moving unit, you can choose if it tries to go around or not each turn.  This lets you do two useful things with Crazed Goblins.  First, you can put them on the flanks and have them start swinging out before the lines meet, ready to pinch in.  This is good if it works, but generally low percentage because if the other player has any plans for those flanks, the goblins are likely a speed bump at best; the kind of units people put on flanks tend to be the high damage/low toughness types that are ideal for killing Crazed Goblins.  My personal favorite plan is to sit 3 or so of these guys behind your 7 unit line and let them act as backup units, either using the actual backup unit rule or just having them move into gaps.  A big issue with Orc line units is that they are built to win long fights but their courage is questionable enough that they'll sometimes suffer embarrasing routs.  The Crazed Goblins will only step in for 2-3 attacks against even an average unit, but those turns can make a big difference.  In this role, they're the emergency field dressing of the injured Orc line.

One thing I like doing with the Crazed Goblins is when I expect to play against another charging/maneuvering army (i.e. not a stand and shoot).  In this case, I'll deploy my real army in the two closest rows to the battle area edge, and deploy one or two Goblins as my last units, alone in the first row (preferably on a flank).  I'll then let them charge the opposing line by themselves and die in the process, but messing up advance plans for the opponent quite a lot by delaying a unit or more by a few turns, turning units around to pinch the Goblins, etc.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: NegativeZer0 on February 24, 2009, 01:50:30 PM
So is it bad if my orc army uses all of the units you rate as p*ss-poor or lower
Goblin Raiders 4
Goblin Bomb-Chucker 2
Trolls 2

(This is really just a fun goblin theme army but I have actually won a game with this army)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: GoIndy on February 24, 2009, 03:33:56 PM
I'm a big believer in the Orcs, and if I have to have a general purpose army without knowing what my opponent will put up, I'll probably always choose them.  (I'd take the Dwarves if I knew the enemy had limited range dudes, but hard to guess that sometimes)  Anyhoo....

Goblin Raiders and Spearmen

Yeah, these guys suck...no question.  The real question is....can I field a line without them?  Also..can I field a line where I can maybe "hide" them by getting them to square off against some crappy unit of the enemy?  I mean, sure, I'd greatly prefer to have a unit of Dwarven Militia instead of these losers, but since I'm not allowed, if I want to have any kind of line...I'l probably have 1 or 2.  Sucks and all, but what can you do.  I just hope I'll be able to stockpile some cards and help these dudes with defense as I go.

Goblin Bowmen

It would be a rare day indeed that I would put in a unit of Goblin Bowmen.  The only time I would really wish I had them, was if my opponent had some collosal super unit.  Maybe in the future the 3 other guys I play with might field them, but generally, only I whip out a T-Rex or Hydra on occassion.  So, I don't bother buying these dudes, and make my line stronger.

Goblin Wolf Riders
The only question with these guys is...do I buy one of them...or two?  I can't imagine a starting force of orcs NOT having them in it.


Orc Swordsmen and Spearmen:
These guys are tough hombres, and my line will have alot of them, generally, as many as I can afford.  Usually, that means at least 2 apiece....and likely...3 apiece.  Now, 3 apiece is 1503 points, so you won't/can't alot to spend after that, laugh.  These guys can do pretty dang well without any card support, but what I generally do is, I use the cards where I can maybe get a quick rout check and smash through and help protect a nearby goblin chump I had to field.


Orc Crossbowmen
Pretty weak, and can't seem to bother with.  However, I bet if my opponent had a collosal unit, I'd wish I had them instead of swordsmen, but since that rarely happens, Swordsmen it is!!



Orc Axemen
It is possible these guys are better than I give them credit, but since them breaking for no reason whatsoever cost me the title at the tournament this weekend, they freaking flat out suck in my book. 

Goblin Bomb Chucker
This guy I actually kind of like, but I have to leave out a key ingredient of my army if I take one.  Generally, it means exchanging him for my signature key ingredient, and downgrading an Orc to Chumplin.  However, it is a fun unit, and in my mind, a fun unit is hard to pass up.

Orc Marauders
These guys look awesome, and would be huge additions to my line.  However, I just can't pay 367 for them, because it would entail adding too many of the Gobweaksistersofthepoor to my line.  Make them cost 300....and I'm in!!

Trolls
Much like the Marauders, I just can't see how I can justify a 400+ hit, and look at my line look like complete garbage.  Make 'em 350...I'll take 'em!!

Healer Mage:
Hey, I know they aren't orc specific, but no army of mine is complete without the mighty healer mage!!  Why, though?  Because most of the line has 2/3 defense, which means orcs are pretty tough dudes to damage.  Because I generally field no ranged guys, my line is often stronger than the enemies to begin with, and hardier guys benefit MOST from the healer mage. 

I probably have to quit using them, though, cause I think these guys are sick of me dragging them into every battle.  (And if I come up with a good way to bring them Lizards, I will!!)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 24, 2009, 04:04:37 PM
So is it bad if my orc army uses all of the units you rate as p*ss-poor or lower
Goblin Raiders 4
Goblin Bomb-Chucker 2
Trolls 2

(This is really just a fun goblin theme army but I have actually won a game with this army)

One challenge in rating Battleground units is in how much you want to play the odds.  I had a game I lost due to the valiant (and statistically aberrant) efforts of an unled Possessed, which stood up for several turns to a High Elf Knight unit, but I can't in good conscience suggest that people use Possessed to tank Knights ;)

That said, I also write from my own perspective.  I hate unreliable units because they bite me all the time, and that army is entirely guys who are one way or another difficult to rely on.  But that of course doesn't mean that they aren't going to be good in a given game.

Battleground is also overall very well balanced, with a few notable exceptions, so my ratings tend to hover in the 2-4 range.  It also means a lot is going to come down to style; I have, for example, a strong bias for making a battle plan in which every unit has a role.  That necessarily biases me towards units that have a strong role to play and away from generalist units that have lots of useful traits but not necessarily ones that you're going to be able to plan to all get use out of in the same battle.  I do think that I'm generally pretty experienced at this game compared to most, so I'm glad to share what I've found, but if a unit performs differently for others, I might well be wrong, and perhaps even more likely, the generals you tend to face might make it so that we are both right about our own particular opponents and forces.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on February 24, 2009, 04:08:41 PM

Orc Swordsmen
Tank: ***
Heavy Infantry: **
Overall: ***

A workhorse of the Orc line.  They'll rarely win fights at any speed, since they average just over 1 damage per turn against even 2/2 guys, but they don't die easily.  They have two black marks against them: they are pretty expensive for a dedicated tank, and their courage is highly questionable.  This latter is the real issue: while Orc Swordsmen will eventually win against most line units if no one routs, they often won't actually win because they'll run away first.  Most guys with this level of toughness have more courage tricks than two copies of I Kill You Meself, good though that card is.  This means you can't really just trust your line of beefy Orcs to crash in and win it; even with your quality advantage, these guys are likely on a clock.  Nonetheless, they have a strong A plan of not dying until they can get bailed out, and if the opponent's line has a weak spot, an Orc Swordsman can definitely punch through, especially with the help of command cards.  Once one does punch through, you're almost assured of a good pinch with the 5" final rush range from the Lash.

Why only 2 stars for heavy infantry?  These guys are my meat and potatoes when playing Orcs.  I measure every solid line unit by Orc Swordsmen.  They are basically a faster version of Dwarven Axemen (who I'm a huge fan of) with 2 less red hits. 


Orc Axemen
It is possible these guys are better than I give them credit, but since them breaking for no reason whatsoever cost me the title at the tournament this weekend, they freaking flat out suck in my book. 


You know, that was one of my few bright spots in our game.  I think they where turned off by the Dwarven Militia's beer breath.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 24, 2009, 04:11:31 PM
One thing I like doing with the Crazed Goblins is when I expect to play against another charging/maneuvering army (i.e. not a stand and shoot).  In this case, I'll deploy my real army in the two closest rows to the battle area edge, and deploy one or two Goblins as my last units, alone in the first row (preferably on a flank).  I'll then let them charge the opposing line by themselves and die in the process, but messing up advance plans for the opponent quite a lot by delaying a unit or more by a few turns, turning units around to pinch the Goblins, etc.

Very good point -- Chad loves plans like this.  Another thing worth mentioning is that you can be flexible about this in the Orc army as well, you don't need to commit to it from the start by leaving most of the first rank open, since the Lash allows you to get any line units that started behind Crazed Goblins into place if necessary.  It isn't very efficient, but leading with Crazed Gobbos can also backfire; if the opponent can afford to hold, for example, then you're unlikely to get enough damage out of the goblins to make them worth it.  If they were already planning on stand and shoot, deploying back just gives their artillery more time to shoot.  For this reason, you might want to consider placing your main line on the front row and bringing any guys you need to up with the Lash to replace goblins that run ahead.  That way if it turns out the opponent isn't vulnerable to disruption like that, you can deploy the goblins behind the lines as a backup unit.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 24, 2009, 04:19:46 PM
(Orc Swordsmen)
Why only 2 stars for heavy infantry?  These guys are my meat and potatoes when playing Orcs.  I measure every solid line unit by Orc Swordsmen.  They are basically a faster version of Dwarven Axemen (who I'm a huge fan of) with 2 less red hits. 

I find they just don't hit hard enough and don't have enough courage to count on them to win fights against any reasonable opposition, at least quickly enough to matter.  If going up against, say, Hawk Spearmen, they're very likely to get the Hawks into the yellow before the Hawks get them there, but they're so much more likely to rout that I don't feel comfortable just putting the two units up against each other and counting on my guys to win.  Dwarf Axemen both hit a bit harder (Rune of Uruz) and have better courage because they have so many more courage boosting options.

Basically my hallmark for viewing someone as heavy infantry rather than a tank is "do I worry about needed to bail this guy out, or will he probably win the fight eventually if I just leave well enough alone?"  I find I can't count on Orc Swordsmen to win their fights often enough to be all that comfortable with them as true heavies rather than a tank unit.  The good news is that between Wolf Riders and Lash, Orc are good at taking advantage of opening, and with Marauders and Axemen, they are good at making them.

Quote

Orc Axemen
It is possible these guys are better than I give them credit, but since them breaking for no reason whatsoever cost me the title at the tournament this weekend, they freaking flat out suck in my book. 


You know, that was one of my few bright spots in our game.  I think they where turned off by the Dwarven Militia's beer breath.

Yep, one reason I overall have issues reviewing the Orcs is that courage is a major sticking point for them.  I'm not sure if I've even played with my pretty new Orc cards; maybe I'll do that tonight :)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on February 24, 2009, 06:38:32 PM
On this morale theme, I have a hilarious note. In our last turn of the Kingdoms campaign in the "sessions" report, I had 3 HE rangers in my Orc army and I passed five courage checks against them by rolling exactly what I needed. The Orcs also held okay and all the rangers succeeded in doing was dying gloriously. I don't think I'll try a rangertrollrangertrollranger line again, but it was a most valiant charge! And yes, I know, HE rangers aren't intended to be front line material, I just like seeing silly elves get their asses handed to them, even if they're on my side. :D
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Jaels on February 25, 2009, 08:38:34 AM
One thing I like doing with the Crazed Goblins is when I expect to play against another charging/maneuvering army (i.e. not a stand and shoot).  In this case, I'll deploy my real army in the two closest rows to the battle area edge, and deploy one or two Goblins as my last units, alone in the first row (preferably on a flank).  I'll then let them charge the opposing line by themselves and die in the process, but messing up advance plans for the opponent quite a lot by delaying a unit or more by a few turns, turning units around to pinch the Goblins, etc.

Very good point -- Chad loves plans like this.  Another thing worth mentioning is that you can be flexible about this in the Orc army as well, you don't need to commit to it from the start by leaving most of the first rank open, since the Lash allows you to get any line units that started behind Crazed Goblins into place if necessary.  It isn't very efficient, but leading with Crazed Gobbos can also backfire; if the opponent can afford to hold, for example, then you're unlikely to get enough damage out of the goblins to make them worth it.  If they were already planning on stand and shoot, deploying back just gives their artillery more time to shoot.  For this reason, you might want to consider placing your main line on the front row and bringing any guys you need to up with the Lash to replace goblins that run ahead.  That way if it turns out the opponent isn't vulnerable to disruption like that, you can deploy the goblins behind the lines as a backup unit.

Indeed, and that's why I mentioned this gambit working against a charging enemy.  But if you think the enemy is likely to hold (he's a stand and shoot, or he doesn't have a maneuvering army), than you simply deploy your main line forward and keep the Gobbos in the second line, to fill holes or create a pinching threat as you mentioned in the original unit assessment.

Giving the front line entirely to the Crazy Guys only work in some situations, but when it does, it means plenty of headaches for your opponent.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 25, 2009, 08:47:54 AM
Indeed, and that's why I mentioned this gambit working against a charging enemy.  But if you think the enemy is likely to hold (he's a stand and shoot, or he doesn't have a maneuvering army), than you simply deploy your main line forward and keep the Gobbos in the second line, to fill holes or create a pinching threat as you mentioned in the original unit assessment.

Giving the front line entirely to the Crazy Guys only work in some situations, but when it does, it means plenty of headaches for your opponent.

Oh yeah, agreed, I was just pointing out that because of the Lash, this is a situation where you can wait until a few units are deployed to decide, or do a mix if you need to, both of which are things I am always looking out for in this game.  It wasn't supposed to take away from your initial point, which was good.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on February 25, 2009, 04:01:03 PM
So let me clarify this. If I have a front line with at least a half a card width between them and a unit on 'C' between and behind them, unable to pass through ordinarily, should the front units be engaged the rear unit could pass through that gap as a final rush? I've always had issues with placing a unit behind another unit for Final Rushing purposes and then had this two turn delay while I moved around into final rushing position and then final rushing the following turn.

Or more directly, If I just have a rear unit on close with less than half of the card behind the front card, then it can simply final rush to get around. Like this:     
            AA     to   Y
            XX           YAA
         YY                XX

I can't get the alignments exact in text, but you get the idea. Maybe everyone does this, but if so, it has just occurred to me, and the Orcs just got really dangerous, so Lazyj had better watch out! 8)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: boltana on February 25, 2009, 07:06:10 PM
So let me clarify this. If I have a front line with at least a half a card width between them and a unit on 'C' between and behind them, unable to pass through ordinarily, should the front units be engaged the rear unit could pass through that gap as a final rush? I've always had issues with placing a unit behind another unit for Final Rushing purposes and then had this two turn delay while I moved around into final rushing position and then final rushing the following turn.

Or more directly, If I just have a rear unit on close with less than half of the card behind the front card, then it can simply final rush to get around. Like this:     
            AA     to   Y
            XX           YAA
         YY                XX

I can't get the alignments exact in text, but you get the idea. Maybe everyone does this, but if so, it has just occurred to me, and the Orcs just got really dangerous, so Lazyj had better watch out! 8)


I think you can only have YY final rushing AA if you can draw a line from the center point of YY to any part of AA. (Assuming that YY had
sufficient MC to final rush AA)

page 27 Clearly Visible: A unit may only engage an enemy unit if the enemy unit was clearly visible at the start of the turn.
If you can draw a line from the front center point of your unit to any part of an enemy unit
(that is in your unit’s front arc) without passing through any other units or line of sight blocking
terrain, then the enemy unit is clearly visible.

 
page 29  A unit may only final rush an enemy (or rout to a point) if there is an open path. 
There is an open path if:
1. a straight line can be drawn from the front center point of the final rushing
(or routing) unit to any point on the enemy unit (or the point the unit is routing to)
and
2. a 2.5” wide path can be found which is clear of other units or impassable obstacles
and though which that line goes.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on February 25, 2009, 07:56:58 PM
Well, I'm about to make a Orc army for this weekends gaming session.  I shall share my thoughts on the effectiveness of the faction at a later date.  From what I've read & seen so far, they seem pretty good. Since I like to be on the offensive most of the time, they will probably suit my style.  ;D
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on February 25, 2009, 08:51:56 PM
With my clearer understanding of the final rush rules here is my army with set up for next time James and I throw down. Yeah, I know he can see this, but I'm that sure of it! 8) This is for turn eight in Kingdoms so it is 2500 points
Spear   Spear   Sword   Spear   Spear
T            Wolves   Wolves              T
r                                                 r
o                                                o
l                                                 l
l                                                 l
s                                                s

The trolls moving sideways will be able to keep up with the rest of the army and the wolf riders can rush through in a pinch. Possible variation is to replace on of the trolls with two more wolf riders and butt the army up one side of the board.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Jaels on February 26, 2009, 09:08:00 AM
Why not let the Trolls move forward and use the indirect path rule to keep them behind the first line?  That way, you'll be able to swing them to the flanks when necessary, and they'll have their charge bonus for hitting their enemy with the front (plus won't suffer a side attack +/- for all battles).
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on February 26, 2009, 06:18:28 PM
The Trolls are sideways so that if the orcs get pinched they can charge right into their flank. If they are right behind facing the same direction they first have to move out and then on the following turn final rush because you cannot final rush a unit that you couldn't see at the beginning of your turn.

I could have them facing the same way as the orcs and just put part of them behind the orcs and achieve the same effect, except then I would be exposing my side to any flanking enemy. 
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: ajax98 on February 28, 2009, 05:55:37 AM
Methinks you could better understand the concept of "spacing" and Dru'ahn's axiom of 'maximum impactus'.

'Maximum impactus' is the art of getting the the most dice (units) into the fray as quickly as possible. So putting all seven major combat units online with speed control on the trolls works.

Using location objectives gives better control of your units for your approach to the enemy units. Takes a bit of practice, but much better (IMO) for setting up your forces to attack.

Spacing is the art of making sure your flanks are not an easy target. I can stretch a five unit front to cover the entire width of the 36" map with no space for flanking.

With Trolls on the flanks deployed sideways in the deployment area (as in your diagram) but facing in the direction you want them to wheel, they will wheel and be in proper or desired position by the time the lines engage, as long as you direct through location objectives the units in front of them to open up.

Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on February 28, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
Quote
With Trolls on the flanks deployed sideways in the deployment area (as in your diagram) but facing in the direction you want them to wheel, they will wheel and be in proper or desired position by the time the lines engage, as long as you direct through location objectives the units in front of them to open up.

Isn't that what I have diagramed? Or am I misunderstanding you? My trolls are facing outward so that they can Final Rush any attacks on the end units and facing out to recieve/discourage any flanking units.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: ajax98 on February 28, 2009, 11:22:07 PM
If that was your intent - "trolls moving sideways"; perhaps I was a bit too literal in my interpretation.
It was not clear in my mind as to the proposed purpose. I had thought perhaps you had a method of purposely moving the trolls in side movement for some nefarious tactical plan...
 ;D

Reading back, one way to read it is that you are just standing in your deployment zone waiting for the enemy?

Tempting to hit your line Obliquely.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: GoIndy on July 27, 2009, 09:17:04 AM
Well, my opinion of the Orc Marauders was greatly improved this weekend.  (7)6/5 with 2/3 defense....tasty.  I did get lucky, in two different ways, but in at least one way it was hard NOT to get lucky...

1)  In both games, before the lines engaged, I drew a Might card.  (+1) 0/+1.  The extra die is spiffy and all, but adding on to the weak power die is just butter, to go along with the charge.   In both cases they were lashed going in, so the hammer got toally dropped on the opponent.  Effective (9) 7/7 is gonna bring home some pain.

2)  The Dwarven Axemen routed immediately, and were killed completely by the to the rear back attack.  The Ravenwood Swords they originally faced didn't immediately rout, but they died on my opponents turn, which is just as well...so in both cases, when it was my turn to move again, it was on like Donkey Kong.

Oooh, and the Marauders ate a charge into their flanks from the Antonion horseman, and while they were hurt badly, they held for long enough for a pinch to smash the horseman.  That 2/3 defense is nothing to sneer at.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on July 27, 2009, 07:38:59 PM
Reminds me I gotta try the Marauders again. The trick, which I keep forgetting, is not to run them into the most powerful enemy unit on the board, they are a horrible waste of money for a fair fight! The trick is to run them into almost the most powerful enemy unit on the board and mop them up.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on July 28, 2009, 11:10:01 AM
What happened to my Battle Axemen sucked.  Not just that they where one-shotted with a failed courage check, but that they only did a single point of damage in return.  I expected to lose to the Marauders, but not on the turn of contact!

Concerning the Antonians, they did 5 on the charge, which was nice.  Next turn they where pinched, but they only needed to do 2 damage to force another courage check on the Marauders.  I played a Rune of Power on the Antonians needing 5s and 3s and only got a single point of damage here as well.  So the while being totally badass, the Marauders where a bit blessed that game.

Edit:  The Marauders are still one of the 5 best heavy infantry units currently in the game IMO.  And clearly the best standard (non-elite, non-core) heavy infantry.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on July 28, 2009, 02:50:51 PM
Well, my opinion of the Orc Marauders was greatly improved this weekend.  (7)6/5 with 2/3 defense....tasty.  I did get lucky, in two different ways, but in at least one way it was hard NOT to get lucky...

1)  In both games, before the lines engaged, I drew a Might card.  (+1) 0/+1.  The extra die is spiffy and all, but adding on to the weak power die is just butter, to go along with the charge.   In both cases they were lashed going in, so the hammer got toally dropped on the opponent.  Effective (9) 7/7 is gonna bring home some pain.

2)  The Dwarven Axemen routed immediately, and were killed completely by the to the rear back attack.  The Ravenwood Swords they originally faced didn't immediately rout, but they died on my opponents turn, which is just as well...so in both cases, when it was my turn to move again, it was on like Donkey Kong.

Oooh, and the Marauders ate a charge into their flanks from the Antonion horseman, and while they were hurt badly, they held for long enough for a pinch to smash the horseman.  That 2/3 defense is nothing to sneer at.

Yeah, Tim beat me like a red headed step child.  He taught me how to use the Wolf riders also.  He kept running away with them until they could pinch.  Good strategy.  I will employ it the next time I play the orcs.  Thanks for the ass wooping.  :o
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Rashak Mani on August 21, 2009, 12:01:48 AM
I also call the Marauders "Elf Killers"... but they do attract an awful lot of arrows if there are no other elite units in your army. I`ve never had a Marauder get to the enemy front line without being shot up by archers.

Marauders are best used against medium or weak creatures that will break easily. Chose well your cards in order to really deliver a very strong punch. 2 rounds and the marauder is in. Those extra die really make cards well chosen a good investment.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 01, 2009, 08:46:37 PM
Yeah, with lash and that one command card that gives the Orcs +3 hit dice I nailed Lazyj's dwarves for 11 dice with one attack!  :o And yes, much stunty butt was kicked!  8)

I have to admit that it would have been more fun if they had been elves.  ;)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on September 01, 2009, 10:05:55 PM
Yeah, with lash and that one command card that gives the Orcs +3 hit dice I nailed Lazyj's dwarves for 11 dice with one attack!  :o And yes, much stunty butt was kicked!  8)

I have to admit that it would have been more fun if they had been elves.  ;)

The secret reason there are so many Elf factions: people love killing Elves!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on December 06, 2009, 10:23:03 PM
Here is an update for using Crazed Goblins.

Crazed Goblins work great when facing Historicals or any light/skirmish type units. Just line five of them up across the front row and let'em go. Assume that they will chase off or cancel out the skirmishers. you want to make sure the rest of your line doesn't become disordered moving up behind them and hopefully your opponent might break up his line to deal with the Crazed goblins.

If, and only if, you have terrain that essentially divides the battle into two discreet parts, another tactic is to put all your crazed goblins onone side of the battle field and the remaining heavies on the other. This allows you to tie up half the battle field with 25% of your points and devote 75% to the other half which you win and then go to defeat the other. I like to run two types of builds. One type has 6 goblins on one side, a wolf rider in the center, and 4 swordsmen and a marauder on the other for 1998 points. If you want to pack a little(okay a lotta) punch with the goblins, add a troll and get one troll with four crazed goblins on one side and four swordsmen and an axemen on the other with no Wolfriders for 1986 points.

The other advantage to crazed goblins is that you can set them up first and use them like foresight to insure that your opponent has to place most if not all of his army before the majority of yours.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on March 20, 2010, 03:17:59 PM
Well, we just played a big battle last night.  I drew the short stick so I had to play the big army against my friends Marcus and Chris.  For some strange reason I took the orcs.  I hardly every play them because I'm partial to good factions(good as in not evil).  Well, I have a new found respect for the orcs primarily because of the lash ability.  It is a very good ability to take advantage of an opponents weaknesses.  Not to mention you can still play command cards also.  I just wish that the courage was one point higher on the main core units.  Seems a bit low to me.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on March 20, 2010, 04:18:05 PM
Amen brother, spread the good word!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Curufea on March 21, 2010, 07:01:32 PM
I'm a bit anti-racist on this - why are orcs always regarded as evil?  Surely they're most often the victims of Evil Wizards who manufactured them as slave warriors in the first place?

Besides, as there is no world history for the setting, any player can decide which races are evil and which are good in his own mind.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on March 21, 2010, 10:15:41 PM
Nobody thinks of themself as evil. Misunderstood or under appreciated but not evil. :)

The orcs aren't evil, they are only rationally hating and despising everything that hates and despises them.

Quote
I just wish that the courage was one point higher on the main core units.  Seems a bit low to me.
:o

Do you see this Lazyj! ;D Maybe you would care to comment. I was thinking their courage might be a bit low, but I've had them fail so rarely that I really wouldn't know. I have an uncanny knack for rolling exactly what I need when it comes to orc courage. 8)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on March 21, 2010, 11:38:16 PM
Orcs are evil damnit!!!!! :o
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on March 22, 2010, 10:58:58 AM
Yeah, you gotta make the greenskins Evil.  It's more fun that way!

Nothing piles on extra attack dice and bonuses like the Orc command deck does.  It's easily the most aggressive in the game.  And over time Lash has grown in my mind from being an OK faction special ability to a really good one.  The extra attack die can be useful, but the extra movement can be critical.  And watching Goblin Wolf Riders zip across the board at 8.5'' is pretty cool.

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on March 22, 2010, 12:04:51 PM
Wonder why you capitalized the word evil?  HMMMMMM.   ;D  Is it because you like the orc faction too?
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on January 18, 2011, 12:36:36 PM
Brook and I played a classic Orc vs Hawkshold game the other night.  While I lost, it was still a really tight game.  I figured I'd post my army build just for yuks.  Its by no means an optimized army that can take all comers, but it sure was a fun one to play and it can make quite the mess rather quickly.

The Swarm/Balls Orc army:

3 x Axemen
1 x Swordsmen
3 x Golbin Raiders
3 x Crazed Goblins
1 x Goblin Wolf Riders
2000 points on the button

I find it to be a fine mix of swarminess (all those goblins!) and ballsiness with the Orc infantry units.  You really need to get a fine punch out of your Axemen to make it work.  The fact that I could fit the Axemen into an 11 unit build is indeed chuckle-worthy.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on January 18, 2011, 05:32:16 PM
What...? No fanatics! Cool build though, I do like the Hatchet men. Whoops, Duh, I just looked and saw the crazed goblins. Okay, totally cool build! 8)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Kevin on January 18, 2011, 07:07:41 PM
I'd leave the Crazed Goblins at home and take one more orc, but that army definitely has potential!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on January 18, 2011, 07:15:32 PM
Yeah, my fight with Marcus the other night was fun.  The side he put his Crazed Goblins looked like a lost cause for me at first.  My scouts did minimal damage on the charge, and it was a 3 to one fight for my Great swordsman.  Fortunately, my Greats hung in there much longer that they should of.  That being said, I gave all of my line troops bravery and they still routed like the french.  My archers after coming close to whiffing for the first 3 turns, hit with 6 out of 8 shots and severely weakened one of Marcus's axemen.  The real hero of the game was my light cavalry which mowed down it's opposition and became a real threat on the flanks.  

It was definitely fun to play a match the other night.  It's been a while.

Here was my build:

3 swordsmen
2 great swordsmen
2 archers
2 scouts
1 light cavalry

Strangely enough my build was exactly 2000 points also.



Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on January 18, 2011, 07:24:40 PM
Quote
Strangely enough my build was exactly 2000 points also.


Wow, you could have sat there all night with no one taking the first turn! :o
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on January 18, 2011, 10:06:36 PM
Funny you said that.  We would of stayed there forever if Marcus hadn't said to just roll a die.   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on August 07, 2011, 09:54:57 AM
Is there any word on the Trolls being able to regenerate into the green from the red?  I forget if this was ruled upon.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: BubblePig on August 07, 2011, 10:50:23 AM
Is there any word on the Trolls being able to regenerate into the green from the red?  I forget if this was ruled upon.
Yes, they do.
Kevin is keeping track of everything here.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K96P5uSvfX3KDDnEuJmyw4IP1Tlv0i-rpsdvoyhrBR0/edit?hl=en_US (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K96P5uSvfX3KDDnEuJmyw4IP1Tlv0i-rpsdvoyhrBR0/edit?hl=en_US)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on August 07, 2011, 12:24:02 PM
Thanks man.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: iamJMAN00793 on December 30, 2011, 11:56:32 PM
I don't like the Orcs. Maybe it's just me but they seem to expensive for what you get! Plus, they don't have any good archers.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on December 31, 2011, 07:27:37 AM
I don't like the Orcs. Maybe it's just me but they seem to expensive for what you get! Plus, they don't have any good archers.
Orcs are like Dwarves on Crack.

Unless you have specific need for speed, leave the trolls in the box and bring the Marauders. Everybody complains about Orc morale, but I don't have a problem with that as I consistently roll just what I need. The Goblin Bombchucker is just plain awesome! There are the technicians in the group who don't like the variability (occasional doubles or just low rolls), but I find I almost always get my money's worth for them and they are very dramatic.

The command cards are another big reason to take the orcs. Frenzy is so good they had to put in a special rule that you can only play one per unit as wolf riders getting 12 attacks (13 with lash) was just too horrifying.

And while we're talking about wolf riders, the only caution about them is that with six attacks, it is easy to forget that they are light cavalry, and people (myself included) try to do the heavy lifting with them.

The orcs have more missile troops choices than they need. I never take the goblin bowmen because the orcs don't need missile troops, but if I want to show my love from a distance I have the bombchucker. The Bombchucker is what the Umenzi Great War Elephant would be if they made it a paratrooper, and for 100's less!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on December 31, 2011, 10:04:00 AM
The orcs are awesome if you like offense and flavor.  I agree with Gull in that even though they have bad courage it doesn't stop me from playing them once in a while.  Also, I think their faction ability is one of the best int the game.  added hit dice, longer range, and the ability to also play a command card is just too good.  That's exactly what I like.  Factions that have strengths AND weaknesses.  It just makes the game fun. 
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on December 31, 2011, 01:13:27 PM

Yeah, Orcs are crazy dudes with axes and I love it.  They don't really tank as well as you'd expect from plate and shield dudes (at least in large part because they have literally no purple cards in their faction uniques so are less likely to draw defense than virtually any other faction) but they aren't going to get embarrassed by worthless chumps that often and they can explode out of nowhere to kill people which is great.  Lash, as noted, is awesome, so long as you get that you aren't going to use it more than a handful of times per game.  Using it just for the +1 die is usually (though not quite universally) awful, but getting that extra inch can be breaking.

They need a decent understanding of the lash and you have to accept that from time to time they'll just randomly decide to run away from some dude for no good reason, but...they're Orcs, what did you expect?

Also, on a tangential note, they have a bunch of command cards that you really want early in the game, so buying a few command cards isn't that terrible if you can budget for it.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on December 31, 2011, 02:04:47 PM
Orcs are a fun faction but they are a bit riskier to play because they don't have a lot of Courage boosters (and no, I Kill You Meself isn't enough. Although it is a great card, there still is only 2 of them in the deck). 

Lash is a great ability, but the key is to remember its really an MC boost with an attack cookie.  Once you're engaged, you shouldn't use it.  Ever.  Which is okay because the Orc command cards are good.  My one gripe on them is that I dislike cards that require a Command Action to play.  This menas you should draw your command cards one at a time.  Because if you decide to draw CCs with all your CAs, then grab 4 at once only to find the second card is a really good card that requires a CA, then its basically a dead card.

I'll be cute and break down the Orc units into the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.


The Good
(i.e. build your army around these cards)

Goblin Bowmen:  some folks think they're no good, but that really depends on what you're trying to do.  If you want super-accurate sniper like shooting...play elves.  Seriously.  But if you want Walmart shooting (i.e. points spent on shooting and nothing else) then these are your guys.  They have the majority of points spent on their shooting dice, with minimal points spent on things like defense, courage, hit boxes, etc.

Goblin Raiders + Crazed Goblins:  I pair these two unit types because they are better than the sum of their parts.  I run them in a trio of 2 Goblin Raiders backed up by a single Crazed Goblin unit.  This combo is ~100 pts cheaper than 2 Orc Swordsmen units and can give you similar tankyness.  If you're facing someone who's fielding a lot of 150-200 pt units, this combo will hold the line for you for some time.

Orc Swordsmen:  Tanks for when someone is putting out 200+ units, that would eat your Raiders+Crazed Gobbos as a snack. A lot of people poo-poo their Cge 12, but they're still a pretty decent tank even with that.  My usual default build is 2 Orc Swordsmen for the relatively heavy hitters and 2 Goblin Raiders+Crazed Gobbos for the chump troops.

Goblin Wolf Riders:  IMO, the best unit in the faction due to cost vs effectiveness.  They're cheap and hit like a dropped building.  These guys are usually the hammer in my default build to the anvil I mentioned above.  In that role, I usually take 2 and have them run on the same flank.  The first one is going to die horribly, leaving the second one to either clean up the weakened enemy or (if the enemy is destroyed) start rolling up the flank.  If they're taken as flank defenders, I'll take 1 and hold them back, just daring someone to charge the flank of my line.  Because with Lash, the Wolf Riders are AT&T (i.e. able to reach out and touch anyone).

Orc Axemen:  Oh my lord these guys are sweet.  I still say Wolf Riders are the best unit in the faction, but these guys are a close second.  They're you're infantry breakthrough unit.  Nuff said.



The Bad
(i.e. leave them in the box)

Goblin Bomb Chucker:  Some people love this unit, and I really want to love them as well, but I just can't.  The Extreme range penalty combined with the no command cards just kills this unit.  As is, its basically just a way to suck command cards off your opponent, with him playing Parry and such to deal with the occasional lucky number of shots.  But 300 pts is just too expensive for that role, even if I was doing a stand and shoot.  Now, if you love this unit, then by all means take it, but understand it's not really a good use of points.  (not that that's every stopped me before  8) )  If this unit was changed so that it treated Extreme Range as Long range, then I'd reassess my opinion of it.

Trolls:  Wow what a craptastic unit.  Even with the current stamp that it can regenerate into the Green from the Red, it's still a stay-in-the-box unit, which is sad because its a borderline iconic unit.  The problem is that even with its high Courage it's still going to fail its 2nd rout check half the time.  That means you're going to have 5-6 Red boxes that never get used.  On most units, 1-3 unused red boxes isn't a big deal, but on this guy that is.  Functionally, this unit becomes an 8 hit box unit and while its defensive stats look good, a Def 1/3 is only marginally better than a Def 2/2.

The Green-and-Red hit box idea IMO is just a failed experiment.  It leaves too many Red boxes unused and the unit can go from 5 dice to 3 pretty quickly on what is supposed to be a breakthrough unit.  I once ran an experiment where I costed out the unit at 5G 5Y 4R and it ended up coming in at like 5 pts more, for much more survivability.  Now, the unit is taking its second cge check after 10 boxes instead of 8.  Those 2 boxes means 2 extra turns of fighting, which is a big deal.  With that tweak, and removing the stamp on regeneration, the unit comes close to being worth it.



The Ugly
(i.e. situationally useful)

Orc Marauders:  I'm sure I hear folks howling that I've been hitting the crack pipe again, but I'll be honest:  I don't think this unit is an "always take it."  Oh yeah this guy is beefy, with loads of attacks, a great offensive skill, and a study Def 2/3.  But I don't think its worth paying the extra 67 pts in every case.  In most cases, Marauders and Axemen put out comparable amounts of damage.  So really what you're paying for is the Def 2.  And, IMO, if you're taking Orcs you already have a gambler's mentality with the fact that your tanks are Cge 12 and you only have 2 courage cards in the deck.  So I'm not gonna hedge and spend points on defense when I can save a few points and go for more offense.

However, when I'm playing a fragile/skill faction, these guys come out.  They're almost tailor made for going up against Elves, who usually have a combination of high skill and low-to-medium toughness and not a lot of damage boxes, but also have high offensive skill themselves.  In that case, it's worth spending the 67 pts for that extra survivability to grind out against those Elder Blade High Elves.  And thus, when a unit has times when you take 'em and times when you leave 'em in the box, that puts them in this category.  With the caveat that they move into The Good depending on your opponent.

Orc Crossbowmen:  If I plan to take a close & hose army, I usually leave these guys in the box.  Yeah they're Pow 6, which is good vs high toughness guys, but then that crossbow attack is less useful.  At which point I'll pay the extra 10% for the Axemen.  However, if I'm playing with some terrain one which I plan to anchor my line, these guys can nab the terrain and shoot while the enemy tries to take that hill from me.  Or if I'm building a stand and shoot list, at which point these guys are great buys.  They are useful, if a bit tricky and a bit un-Orcy to use, but their useful is more about what is on the table and/or what you plan to do than their inherent value.

Orc Spearmen:  I use Orc swordsmen as a tank unit, and this guy is getting expensive enough that he has to start doing some killing to be worth it.  If I know my opponent is going to take some beefy monster or cavalry, then these guys are awesome flank protectors.  Otherwise, they're something I upgrade my Swordsmen to if I have the spare points.  Still good, mind you, just not the first thing I grab when I build a list.

Goblin Spearmen:  Whereas the Marauders border on being in The Good category, these guys border on being in The Bad group.  Goblins are there to die and spending more than you have to strikes me as sending good points after bad.  Still, it is only 17 pts for that extra attack and so I do sometimes upgrade if I have less than 25 pts remaining.  More than that and I'll pick up a card or upgrade Orc swordsmen to spearmen.  Its rare that I'd upgrade this unit, but on the flip side, they can put a hurt on heavy cavalry.  But really, these guys usually stay in the box unless I'm in a unique "I have 17 pts left over" situation or I know my opponent has lots of light cavalry that will be charging my for some fool reason.


Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on December 31, 2011, 02:22:01 PM
Plus, they don't have any good archers.
Goblin Bowmen are actually the best in the game for the points from a damage standpoint.  Look at Hawksold Bowmen.  They have a better defensive stat, higher courage (with the ability to boost it even more), and more hit boxes at 165 points vs. 146 points for the Goblins.  Fair enough.  But when I put archery down I normally don't care about those things because most of the time if it comes down to how well your archers stand up in hand to hand combat, they are hosed anyways.  I want the (4) 5/5 ranged attack stat and I'm paying only 146 points for that in the Goblins where as I', paying 165 points for it in the Hawks.  If you look at it that way, Orc, Undead, and even Dwarven standard archery are actually a good deal.  

There are 2 problems I see with the Orcs.

1 - If you are going for a full 6-7 unit line and enough auxiliary units not to get yourself pinched early on, you are going to have to put at least 1 or 2 Goblin line troops out there and they are about as dependable as a fishnet condom.  Yes they do standard attack damage for an incredibly low price, but their shabby defensive stats and hideous courage makes them a serious liability.

2 - As some have mentioned, their over all courage is an issue.  I Kill You Meself is a great card, but you'll usually only draw one of them per game and that's not much help compared to the flood of courage failures you can potentially suffer playing the Orcs.  Only the expensive units have a 13 courage and nobody has a 14 in the faction.  I will confess that I am a bit shell shocked by courage failures as historically my troops tend to route more often than my opponents (see literally every other report I have ever posted - LOL) and playing the faction with the worst ever courage only exasperates this.  At least for me.  

Still, I like the faction and I always have a blast when I play them.  Of the 1st 3 factions (Hawkshold and Undead being the other 2) I think the Orcs are probably the one that had the least amount of errata and balance issues.  Plus, I'm a sucker for heavy infantry types and the Orcs have them in both quality and quantity.  

Edit:  Hannibal posted as I was composing this and you can see we're on the same page about the Goblin Bowmen.  Wal Mart archery indeed!

The Good
(i.e. build your army around these cards)

Goblin Wolf Riders:  IMO, the best unit in the faction due to cost vs effectiveness.  They're cheap and hit like a dropped building.  These guys are usually the hammer in my default build to the anvil I mentioned above.  In that role, I usually take 2 and have them run on the same flank.  The first one is going to die horribly, leaving the second one to either clean up the weakened enemy or (if the enemy is destroyed) start rolling up the flank.  If they're taken as flank defenders, I'll take 1 and hold them back, just daring someone to charge the flank of my line.  Because with Lash, the Wolf Riders are AT&T (i.e. able to reach out and touch anyone).

Orc Axemen:  Oh my lord these guys are sweet.  I still say Wolf Riders are the best unit in the faction, but these guys are a close second.  They're you're infantry breakthrough unit.  Nuff said.
Actually, I'm so strongly in agreement with these points that I thought they should be repeated ;)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: iamJMAN00793 on December 31, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
These are all fair pionts. Perhaps I should continue to give these guys a shot.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on July 13, 2012, 12:21:06 AM
What units are elite in the Orc faction again?  Is it the Trolls and the Bomb Chucker?  Or are Marauders elite too?
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on July 13, 2012, 02:17:22 AM

Just trolls and chucker.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on July 14, 2012, 09:12:36 PM
Thanks. 
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: BubblePig on July 16, 2012, 02:03:34 PM
I moved the discussion on rule variants for Trolls etc. to a new topic: Large Units, Red/Green Units (http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,5085.0.html)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on July 16, 2012, 02:12:51 PM
I moved the discussion on rule variants for Trolls etc. to a new topic: Large Units, Red/Green Units (http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,5085.0.html)
You're the man! The IT man!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on February 09, 2013, 06:18:35 PM
Question regarding the cards Battle Lust and Frenzy.

Say it's the orc players turn and he has both of these cards in his hand.  He has two units close to death but wants them to go out with guns blazing.  Is this a legal move?  Could you play Battle lust and give both units a +1 hit die and also play Frenzy on both units during the movement and command phase?  Frenzy says that you may not play command cards while that unit is attacking or defending this turn so I'm not sure. 
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 09, 2013, 06:42:15 PM
Question regarding the cards Battle Lust and Frenzy.

Say it's the orc players turn and he has both of these cards in his hand.  He has two units close to death but wants them to go out with guns blazing.  Is this a legal move?  Could you play Battle lust and give both units a +1 hit die and also play Frenzy on both units during the movement and command phase?  Frenzy says that you may not play command cards while that unit is attacking or defending this turn so I'm not sure. 

Yep, works fine.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on February 09, 2013, 08:44:46 PM
Good to know.  Would the same go for the Rampage/Frenzy combo?  For an effective (+2) +1/+2 -1/-1?  and for that matter could you also slap a Lash on the unit for an effective (+3) +1/+2 -1/-1.  By the way the cards are worded it seems yes, but I would like to hear it from the rules guys.  I'm trying to develop a winning strategy with the Orcs.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Niko White on February 09, 2013, 08:49:57 PM
Good to know.  Would the same go for the Rampage/Frenzy combo?  For an effective (+2) +1/+2 -1/-1?  and for that matter could you also slap a Lash on the unit for an effective (+3) +1/+2 -1/-1.  By the way the cards are worded it seems yes, but I would like to hear it from the rules guys.  I'm trying to develop a winning strategy with the Orcs.

Yeah, you can do some stacking with the Orcs, to say the least.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Kevin on February 09, 2013, 08:50:56 PM
Yes that would be OK.  Extremely rare that you'd have all those cards in your hand at once, but OK.   Note, however, that you'd have to play Rampage by pitching a card to give the benefit to everyone, rather than just on the Frenzied unit, as when you play it on a single unit it's a red card, which Frenzy prohibits.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Braveheart101 on August 10, 2013, 11:48:26 PM
I think I've discovered a quick fix to make the Trolls worth taking: instead of regenerating 1 box at a time, I've houseruled them to regenerate D2 boxes at a time. I tried D3, but that makes them too good.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on August 11, 2013, 06:49:39 AM
I really like that variation! There is the unofficial, but general, interpretation that being in the green represents two trolls and being in the red represents one troll. If you were to allow 2 hits per turn regeneration in the green, and only one hit per turn in the red, that would be consistent with the flavor of the unit, as "each" Troll would be regenerating.

Maybe the jersey boys could play-test this and give their 2 cents. I'd be up for making this official if it is deemed a sufficient fix. It is simple and easy to apply. I also like the tension that it adds to "bring down that first Troll" so you can get it off that 2 hit regeneration rate!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on August 11, 2013, 07:39:01 AM
We could try that out.  I think regenerating 2 boxes would end up being a little too much though.  In a perfect world I would of given them a 2/3 defensive stat bar.  Trolls are not as slow as that 1 defensive skill suggests.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on August 11, 2013, 09:02:54 AM
2/3 is not very flavorable since then they are just big orcs. Changing the stat requires altering the card, and we should try to avoid that if at all possible. I think the two regen while in the green would make it very important to hit them fast and hard, while not going over the top. I have frequently lost Trolls before getting much regen benefit. If they are pinched and taking 2-3 hits in damage every turn they are losing quickly, if they can prolong that another turn through enhanced regen, that may just be the tweak they need.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on July 09, 2014, 10:06:05 AM
Is it me or is the current Orc command deck with the errata really smoking?
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: BubblePig on August 21, 2014, 12:31:32 AM
Is it me or is the current Orc command deck with the errata really smoking?
Not, "or" Marcus. You and the current Orc command deck with the errata are really smoking.   :P
But what really scares me about Orcs is the ridiculous amount of dice they can potentially get with the new dice charge.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gpman on August 21, 2014, 04:35:46 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/daddysblazer/193f3c648eb7dfda7ba16a10ae3fba3b_zpsc0f22a95.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/daddysblazer/media/193f3c648eb7dfda7ba16a10ae3fba3b_zpsc0f22a95.jpg.html)

is there errata other than what is on the Your Moves Game website?  Was there an updated deck, because my Orc cards match what is on the errata page (I mean mine are fixed already)?
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on August 22, 2014, 11:39:07 AM
Is it me or is the current Orc command deck with the errata really smoking?

I thought that the Orc command deck was always pretty good.  I still think Blood Scent kinda sucks because there are times when you can't even use it.  It should have some kind of errata that allows you to discard it and draw a command card or something like that. 

Or how about this:

Blood Scent: You unit gets +1/+1 this attack if the enemy unit is in the yellow or red. 

Or

You may discard Blood Scent to give target unit +1MC this turn if this would lead to a final rush. 
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Kevin on August 22, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Quote
is there errata other than what is on the Your Moves Game website?  Was there an updated deck, because my Orc cards match what is on the errata page (I mean mine are fixed already)?

See http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,5041.0.html , which is one of the sticky threads on the Rules section.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gpman on August 22, 2014, 10:31:22 PM
thanks Kevin, that helps.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: BubblePig on August 23, 2014, 10:00:06 AM
Quote
is there errata other than what is on the Your Moves Game website?  Was there an updated deck, because my Orc cards match what is on the errata page (I mean mine are fixed already)?

See http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,5041.0.html , which is one of the sticky threads on the Rules section.

Also note that a link to the command card errata can be found in the Useful BG links (http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,9873.msg42226.html#msg42226) topic which is one of the sticky threads in the General Discussion section. (A link to that page is also in my signature at the bottom of all my posts.) It does not have an explanation of the reasoning behind any changes, but is rather a stripped down "here is a central location to find links to a bunch of stuff you might be looking for."
If there is anything you want to find, that is not linked to on that page, that you think should be there, I would much appreciate a heads up so I can put it there.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 07, 2014, 08:46:11 PM
How about giving Orc Crossbowmen the Javelin keyword? I mean, of course, treating the Xbows like Javelins. It isn't hard to imagine them being fired preparatory to a charge. It would be a 3 hit die attack just like their ranged attack. The only errata would be to add the Javelin Keyword to the unit card. I think I've just homeruled this. James....James...

They are usually overpaying for the Xbows, so giving them this ability would certainly make them more generally usable.

Dwarven Xbows could get this too.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: BubblePig on September 07, 2014, 11:52:17 PM
I don't think crossbows reload at nearly the same rate as javelins. Even atlatls don't get the javelin keyword iirc.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 08, 2014, 08:04:22 AM
It is a tactical doctrine thing. Atlatls were not thrown by troops that had any intention of meleeing their opponents.

A model from history would be the Roman pila. In melee, the pila were thrown prior to the charge in the hopes that they would stick into the enemy's shield and make it unwieldy and useless. This I make mention of in response to the concern over the relative reload rates--the pila weren't thrown repeatedly, they were thrown once as the unit charged.

Obviously, Xbows would be used to generate actual casualties and for general discomfiture, as can be inferred from the LOTR movies where many Uruks carried Xbows right into melee. One difference with the Javelins carried by the Centaurs is that they get full melee dice attacks, whereas both Orcs and Dwarves suffer a -2 attack dice penalty.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 12, 2014, 10:43:39 AM
It is a tactical doctrine thing. Atlatls were not thrown by troops that had any intention of meleeing their opponents.

A model from history would be the Roman pila. In melee, the pila were thrown prior to the charge in the hopes that they would stick into the enemy's shield and make it unwieldy and useless. This I make mention of in response to the concern over the relative reload rates--the pila weren't thrown repeatedly, they were thrown once as the unit charged.

And historically crossbows were not used to fire at point blank range like the British in Zulu!  There's is no "wait until you can see the whites of their eyes" from crossbowmen.  They usually fought behind a (thin) row of spearmen with shields.  And if the enemy got to close, they would often flee behind the "real" troops.

Orc crossbowmen clearly do not use that battle doctrine.  They fire from the hip on the way in, then drop the crossbows and grab the Big Honkin' Sword.  That's not a doctrine to me that says they should get a javelin attack.


Quote
Obviously, Xbows would be used to generate actual casualties and for general discomfiture, as can be inferred from the LOTR movies where many Uruks carried Xbows right into melee.

Well, LotR also has cavalry charging right into the teeth of Holding spearmen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCARXI0WvGo&feature=player_detailpage#t=219) and Holding pikemen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9gVWG5IQ7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=152), and in both cases coming out on top.  Even if you count Gandalf as a really good Command Card (and say that the spearmen were probably closer to Goblins than Orcs) I'm a little leery of using the movies as precedent.    ;)


Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 12, 2014, 07:57:39 PM
It is a tactical doctrine thing. Atlatls were not thrown by troops that had any intention of meleeing their opponents.

A model from history would be the Roman pila. In melee, the pila were thrown prior to the charge in the hopes that they would stick into the enemy's shield and make it unwieldy and useless. This I make mention of in response to the concern over the relative reload rates--the pila weren't thrown repeatedly, they were thrown once as the unit charged.

And historically crossbows were not used to fire at point blank range like the British in Zulu!  There's is no "wait until you can see the whites of their eyes" from crossbowmen.  They usually fought behind a (thin) row of spearmen with shields.  And if the enemy got to close, they would often flee behind the "real" troops.

Orc crossbowmen clearly do not use that battle doctrine.  They fire from the hip on the way in, then drop the crossbows and grab the Big Honkin' Sword.  That's not a doctrine to me that says they should get a javelin attack.


Quote
Obviously, Xbows would be used to generate actual casualties and for general discomfiture, as can be inferred from the LOTR movies where many Uruks carried Xbows right into melee.

Well, LotR also has cavalry charging right into the teeth of Holding spearmen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCARXI0WvGo&feature=player_detailpage#t=219) and Holding pikemen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9gVWG5IQ7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=152), and in both cases coming out on top.  Even if you count Gandalf as a really good Command Card (and say that the spearmen were probably closer to Goblins than Orcs) I'm a little leery of using the movies as precedent.    ;)




You are correct, we shouldn't use such movies as clues to good battlefield tactics. Although if you wanted to argue that horses charging down a hill that obviously couldn't stop might cause the spearmen to bolt, then you could argue that is what "historically" happened, even if the actual depiction was way off.

But you could argue that Uruk style orcs (a level above the goblins in the game) would have a tactic where prior to a final rush the front rank fired their Xbows kneeling while simultaneously the second rank fired while standing, and then all charged. Unlike Javelins it is not a full dice attack, only 3 dice with rarely any modifiers, so unlikely to do more than one damage. It would be odd for a unit to get more than two charges a game. Rarely in any game does a single unit final rush 3 times, which is to say on average A unit might expect to final rush twice a game.

Ostensibly then, an Xbow unit that is seeing some action can expect to cause as much as two wounds per game over what it otherwise could expect. At 300 points, Axemen are pretty much the same unit with a 2/3 defense over the Xbowmen's 1/3 defense. I have no idea what the extra +1/- is worth, but lets err conservatively and say 25 points. That means the premium for the Xbows is ~75 points. If you asked the average player if he would buy the Xbowmen for 75 points less if it meant no Xbow attacks, I think the unit would stay in the box less, a lot less.

Or look at it this way, would you pay an extra 75 points to give the Axeorcs a Xbow capability? Yeah, me neither.

My point is that giving the Xbowmen a cookie in the form of a javelin-like attack is hardly out of line. I say javelin-like because their Javelin attack would be at -2/-/-1 compared to their melee attack, unlike the Centaurs who enjoy Javelin/melee parity.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Kevin on September 12, 2014, 10:21:54 PM
Quote
At 300 points, Axemen are pretty much the same unit with a 2/3 defense over the Xbowmen's 1/3 defense

 ???

Axemen are 1/3.

A better apples-to-apples comparison to get the value of crossbows is Wuxing.  Wuxing Terracotta Crossbowmen = Wuxing Terracotta Swordsmen with the standard (3) 5/5 r14" line-of-sight crossbow shot.  Swordsmen cost 209; Crossbowmen cost 242.  So the crossbows cost 33 points.  33 points for, as you say, 2 wounds is a reasonably good deal IMHO.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 12, 2014, 11:37:08 PM
Quote
Although if you wanted to argue that horses charging down a hill that obviously couldn't stop might cause the spearmen to bolt, then you could argue that is what "historically" happened

Actually those horsemen would die horribly.  That hill was like a 30 degree angle and charging downhill is very dangerous.  Especially on cavalry, who are decidedly plains animals and not mountain animals.  Chances are in real life those cavalrymen would rolled down that hill and the pikemen would had easy picking stabbing the guys who survived there horses rolling over them.


Quote
But you could argue that Uruk style orcs (a level above the goblins in the game) would have a tactic where prior to a final rush the front rank fired their Xbows kneeling while simultaneously the second rank fired while standing, and then all charged.

You could...but that's (IMO) clearly not what they do.  They don't "advance, halt, fire off a bunch of volleys, then mop up with a decisive charge."  What you're describing is actually pretty close to what the British Redcoats in and around the AWI period.  The Orcs fire off a few shots from the hip as they advance into charge range.

The way I'm pretty sure that's what they do is because in the formula, the Crossbowmen actually underpay for their shooting.  Plugging their 10.5" range into the formula, they should be charged for:

Quote
Turns of shooting w/Long range + Move & shoot penalty:  .5
Turns of shooting with Move & Shoot penalty:  1.5
Turns of shooting at short range:  2.0

The formula assumes that if you have a shooting attack, you will sit back and shoot for the maximum number of turns (which is the smart play).  The above states that half the time you'll have to advance into Long rang half the time the enemy will do it for you.  That's where the ".5" and "1.5" comes from. 

If Crossbowmen were costed this way, they'd be 284 pts.  Here's how their shooting attack is actually costed:

Quote
Turns of shooting w/Long range + Move & shoot penalty:  .5
Turns of shooting with Move & Shoot penalty:  2.0
Turns of shooting at short range:  .5

As you can see, that's a whole turn less of shooting with them, and more importantly, fewer turns of shooting at short range.  So in fact the desgn assumption of these guys is that they'd fire the crossbows like blunderbusses, doing volleys on the way in to soften the enemy before charging.  But the idea that they'd fire in a coordinated rotation for a bit and charge is not reflected in the way they're designed.


Quote
Or look at it this way, would you pay an extra 75 points to give the Axeorcs a Xbow capability? Yeah, me neither.

No I wouldn't.  And neither do Crossbowmen.  They pay 32 pts for it.  I dug through the formula and shuffled through the cost.  I think 32pts for their attack is probably about right.  If anything, its a little cheap, because Orc Crossbowmen are something you're likely to use when anchoring a flank and getting the maximum number of shots.


Quote
At 300 points, Axemen are pretty much the same unit with a 2/3 defense over the Xbowmen's 1/3 defense. I have no idea what the extra +1/- is worth, but lets err conservatively and say 25 points.

Actually Axemen have +1 Off Skill on the Crossbowmen, but that is way more than 25 pts.  If you took Axemen and made them (5)5/6, they go from 300pts to 256 pts:  a 44 pt (or 15%) decrease.


Quote
My point is that giving the Xbowmen a cookie in the form of a javelin-like attack is hardly out of line. I say javelin-like because their Javelin attack would be at -2/-/-1 compared to their melee attack, unlike the Centaurs who enjoy Javelin/melee parity.

Yes but the Centaurs pay for every die of that javelin attack.  Its like 60pts just in that single attack right there.  Its not something they get for free.

Look at it this way:  let's take crossbowmen without the range attack.  Just their regular melee attack, they come in at 235 pts.  If you just gave them a (3)5/5 javelin attack (a "weak pila"), that alone would elevate their cost to 255pts.  That single javelin attack would be worth 20pts, almost 10% of their cost.  Given that the Orc Crossbows are already assumed to be shooting fewer turns than the formula (and its very good assumptions in this case) says it should, I don't feel that this unit needs another free 20pt cookie.


The long and short is that you want Orc Crossbowmen to do something they pretty clearly weren't designed to do.  I'm sorry, but if you want a unit that advances slow & steady with disciplined volleys...you want to play Dwarves.  I know that's heresy for a Orc supremacist like you, but there it is.   ;D
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 15, 2014, 08:23:45 AM
Sorry, I must have been sniffing glue again. I know Xboworcs are 267 and that puts them at less than AxeOrcs, but in my adhesive addled mind the other day I was imagining them at 367. At 367 I would have a point, whereas at 267 not so much.

Basically, with XbowOrcs your buying a heavy infantry unit with two handed swords for 267. It is very situational to have the Xbows cause any damage. If I had a build with 30 points left over I could swap a SwordOrc out for a XbowOrc (if I didn't need it for core requirements), but I'd probably just buy an extra card. Actually, I'm quite sure I'd go for SpearOrcs for 260 or whatever they cost.

Although, next time I have a big swamp I might just buy a XbowOrc to march out to the center of it and just stand there shooting things. 8)

I know the XbowOrcs are situational units, I have just never had a situation come up where I thought they'd be a good buy. :P
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on September 15, 2014, 09:46:45 AM
You know...

1 - Lash those suckers to take the top of a hill
2 - Have fun shooting
3 - Have fun with that modified 2/3 defensive stat when the opponent can convince somebody to trudge up that hill to engage them

 ;D
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 15, 2014, 10:31:18 AM
You know...

1 - Lash those suckers to take the top of a hill
2 - Have fun shooting
3 - Have fun with that modified 2/3 defensive stat when the opponent can convince somebody to trudge up that hill to engage them

 ;D

That is exactly the situation I'd use them for.  You can do it on a small hill that is part of your "delay flank" because you'll maximize your shots.  Or you can do it on your "attack flank" and have the Xbowmen protect the flank of some Axemen.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 15, 2014, 08:54:11 PM
Quote
Actually those horsemen would die horribly.  That hill was like a 30 degree angle and charging downhill is very dangerous.  Especially on cavalry, who are decidedly plains animals and not mountain animals.  Chances are in real life those cavalrymen would rolled down that hill and the pikemen would had easy picking stabbing the guys who survived there horses rolling over them.

{With exasperated look and tone}
But this is the ROHAN faction and their cavalry have the Vertical Envelopment keyword because charging down sharp inclines into polearms is what they do best.  ::)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 15, 2014, 10:35:10 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know.  But that scene always bugged me.   :P
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 16, 2014, 09:13:12 AM
Yeah, that and Aragorn telling the archers to hold their fire til the enemy got real close at Helms Deep. This isn't the age of black powder where you needed to see the whites of their eyes before getting a good shot, nor was there any element of surprise to be lost. Certainly, the archers of Lorien could have started shooting much sooner.

Unless he was hoping to parley... :P
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 16, 2014, 09:20:56 AM
You know...

1 - Lash those suckers to take the top of a hill
2 - Have fun shooting
3 - Have fun with that modified 2/3 defensive stat when the opponent can convince somebody to trudge up that hill to engage them

 ;D

This gives me an idea for a solitaire "thought experiment" scenario. Between the deployment areas put a swamp on one side and a hill on the other and play the Last Stand scenario.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on September 16, 2014, 10:24:39 AM
Hey, if it gets those crossbows a-twangin'!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Kevin on September 16, 2014, 10:45:46 AM
Aragorn was a poor tactician in the movies (He was a much better one in the books!)  I always thought his worst (movie) screw up was just after the Orcs breached the wall at Helm's Deep.  The Elves fired off one volley of arrows that cut down a good fraction of the Orcs that had made it inside, and they still had plenty of arrows left--enough to kill every orc inside and the group that charged in next and the group that charged in next and the group that charged in next and you get the idea.  

Then Aragorn yells, "CHARGE!" so now the Elves can go toe-to-toe with heavily-armored orc infantry.

Why?  ???   :'(

If you don't remember how that scene turned out, play it out with your High Elf Archers vs. Orc Swordsmen and you'll get the idea.   :)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on September 16, 2014, 11:15:46 AM
Quote
Aragorn was a poor tactician in the movies (He was a much better one in the books!)  I always thought his worst (movie) screw up was just after the Orcs breached the wall at Helm's Deep.  The Elves fired off one volley of arrows that cut down a good fraction of the Orcs that had made it inside, and they still had plenty of arrows left--enough to kill every orc inside and the group that charged in next and the group that charged in next and the group that charged in next and you get the idea.
Quote
 

So there's proof that Elves should be brave!!!!!!!! Why doesn't Battleground reflect this?  :) LOL

I think the Elves at Helms Deep in the movie were combination warriors/archers.....

Hmmm, I think Marcus told me that in the books the Elves never even came to Helms Deep to help Rohan fight.



Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 16, 2014, 11:17:24 AM
Or how about at the Black Gate? Where he lets the Orc army encircle his, rather than attacking them as the gate opened, on a narrow frontage where the enemy couldn't bring their numbers to bear.  Admittedly they'd be fighting in the shadow of the gate where archers could rain down arrows (and Trolls could throw rocks[1]), but they were down to a poo-platter of bad ideas at that point.  Still, of bad options they had, "stand there while the enemy surrounds you" has got to be low on the list.


[1] Yeah, they had the eagles who could attempt to neutralize some of that high ground advantage, but they didn't know that at the time.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on September 16, 2014, 11:50:23 AM
Hmmm, I think Marcus told me that in the books the Elves never even came to Helms Deep to help Rohan fight.

Yup.  That was total bullshit.  Just like the Ghosts of the Dead Men of Duharrow showing up at the Battle of Pelenor Fields.

The whole deal with the battle in front of The Morannon (Black Gate) was that it was supposed to distract Sauron from seeking Frodo and Sam on their way to Mt. Doom, which it did.  Gandalf knew that they didn't have a chance in Hell of winning the battle.

But all of that is tiddlywinks compared to the First Age of Middle Earth Battles that went down between the High Elves and the forces of Morgoth.  Just check out the Nírnaeth Arnoediad - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears.  Fought over the course of several days on a front about 150 miles wide.  You read that correctly - 100,000 Orcs IN RESERVE.  Plus companies of Balrogs, Trolls, Dragons, and other nasties.  Now THAT'S and epic battle!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%ADrnaeth_Arnoediad  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%ADrnaeth_Arnoediad)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 16, 2014, 12:19:47 PM
Quote
The whole deal with the battle in front of The Morannon (Black Gate) was that it was supposed to distract Sauron from seeking Frodo and Sam on their way to Mt. Doom, which it did.  Gandalf knew that they didn't have a chance in Hell of winning the battle.

True, but you don't have to stupid about your feint.


At what point do we need to break these post off into a general "what LotR teaches us not to do" thread?  Keep this Orc review thread on topic.

Heck, for that matter, at what point do we redo these faction reviews in the light of the 3.1 rules (dice charge, no flank from front, change to the backup rules, Disrupted, etc...)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on September 17, 2014, 07:26:10 AM
Hmmm, I think Marcus told me that in the books the Elves never even came to Helms Deep to help Rohan fight.

Yup.  That was total bullshit.  Just like the Ghosts of the Dead Men of Duharrow showing up at the Battle of Pelenor Fields.

The whole deal with the battle in front of The Morannon (Black Gate) was that it was supposed to distract Sauron from seeking Frodo and Sam on their way to Mt. Doom, which it did.  Gandalf knew that they didn't have a chance in Hell of winning the battle.

But all of that is tiddlywinks compared to the First Age of Middle Earth Battles that went down between the High Elves and the forces of Morgoth.  Just check out the Nírnaeth Arnoediad - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears.  Fought over the course of several days on a front about 150 miles wide.  You read that correctly - 100,000 Orcs IN RESERVE.  Plus companies of Balrogs, Trolls, Dragons, and other nasties.  Now THAT'S and epic battle!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%ADrnaeth_Arnoediad  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%ADrnaeth_Arnoediad)

So High Elves had to fight Dragons, Balrogs, etc....?  Seems that they had something better than a Oathbound card in their pocket.......:)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: RushAss on September 17, 2014, 09:38:54 AM

So High Elves had to fight Dragons, Balrogs, etc....?  Seems that they had something better than a Oathbound card in their pocket.......:)
And you know who saved their sorry asses from complete elimination by the Dragons and even sent Glaurung the Father of Dragons squealing back to his lair?  It was the Dwarves  ;D

I do believe that Lashing Orc Crossbows to achieve a hold on a terrain objective (especially hills) is a great combo.  I claim the terrain and shoot you.  You wanna knock me off?  You'd have to butt heads with a (5) 5/6 unit to do so.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 17, 2014, 11:47:07 AM
I am fighting a battle right now with Orcs v. HE like I mentioned below...O hell, let me copy it
Quote
This gives me an idea for a solitaire "thought experiment" scenario. Between the deployment areas put a swamp on one side and a hill on the other and play the Last Stand scenario.
The battle is going well for the Orcs because I am not very experienced with HE compared to Orcs. I intend to refight the battle with your advisory input after I post this battle.

Coming soon... 8)

Oh, and first age elves were a little tougher and a little bit better kitted out than their 3rd age brethren. In ICE's Middle Earth RPG Elrond was like 60th level, in the first age they were ALL like that!

And this whole conversation shows why it is really hard to do a wargame based on armies that based on heroic tales and author's fancy. Then remove it one more level by having it made into a movie. That's two orders removed from actual possibility!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Karasu on September 19, 2014, 10:01:05 AM
Um.

Hordes of the Things?

 :)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on September 19, 2014, 01:14:43 PM

So High Elves had to fight Dragons, Balrogs, etc....?  Seems that they had something better than a Oathbound card in their pocket.......:)
And you know who saved their sorry asses from complete elimination by the Dragons and even sent Glaurung the Father of Dragons squealing back to his lair?  It was the Dwarves  ;D

I do believe that Lashing Orc Crossbows to achieve a hold on a terrain objective (especially hills) is a great combo.  I claim the terrain and shoot you.  You wanna knock me off?  You'd have to butt heads with a (5) 5/6 unit to do so.

So nice that the Dwarves decided to join in the fight after the Elves softened them up first.  Real stand up guys.........Haha...that is if you can tell they're standing up......:)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: BubblePig on September 19, 2014, 03:04:12 PM
Haha...that is if you can tell their standing up......:)
That was a low blow. :-X
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gornhorror on September 19, 2014, 07:25:24 PM
Haha...that is if you can tell their standing up......:)
That was a low blow. :-X

Rimshot..........:)
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 20, 2014, 08:05:21 AM
Haha...that is if you can tell their standing up......:)
That was a low blow. :-X

Rimshot..........:)
Isn't any blow a Dwarf gets a low blow? Ask Marcus what I said about that.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 20, 2014, 08:19:30 AM
In order to bring this discussion back on topic, I will add this:

I think the +2 dice charge is an Orc player's dream. Part of the Orc's flavor is the idea of scads of frenzied attackers. To this end they have several cards which allow for additional attack dice. If a player husbands his cards and combines them at the right moment this can result in Warhammeresque handfuls of dice. Although not necessarily easy to set up, I personally have been able to pull off the examples below on several occasions, including the Wolfrider's charges that almost oneshotted some Elven Knights AND some Bowriders in this session report http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,9978.0.html

Optimized Orc Marauders 7base+2charge+1Battle lust+1Lash+3Ferocity=14 attack dice, or
Optimized Wolfriders       6base+2charge+1Battle lust+1Lash+3Ferocity=13 attack dice + impact hit!
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 20, 2014, 09:04:33 PM
Wow, I posted over 12 hours ago and nobody has responded. I guess I got the last word in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m34GUn0QqA
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 21, 2014, 12:51:58 AM
Optimized Orc Marauders 7base+2charge+1Battle lust+1Lash+3Ferocity=14 attack dice

And then I play Mettle and they need 1s to wound.  Those 14 dice (and 3 CAs) amount to 1-2 points, for the cost of 1 CA from me.

Quote
, or
Optimized Wolfriders       6base+2charge+1Battle lust+1Lash+3Ferocity=13 attack dice + impact hit!

And Mettle brings it back down to 2-3 points, at again the cost of 1 CA vs your 3 CAs.


Extra dice is a bit of a red herring, because it can so easily be trumped by Command Cards.  In fact, I think Ferocity is a bit weak because of how easily it can be trumped.
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: gull2112 on September 24, 2014, 08:55:09 AM
Here's what I see as the flaw in that reasoning. You assume a ubiquitous mettle card. Granted, if you knew that was a favored tactic you could husband your resources and hold back your mettle card(s) to counter that, in which case I've gained an edge of sorts because I've got you reacting to an implied threat. To counter that counter I could swap out ferocity with accuracy and I'd still be throwing 10+ dice.

Obviously there are no sure things. That would break the game. However, to insinuate that a tactic is not valid just because there is a possible counter is itself not a valid point.

To be sure, lining up the perfect storm of Command cards is not a sure thing either. It is notable and remarkable that I was able to pull it off twice in one game. Hence the noted remark.  :D
Title: Re: Taste the Lash! (Orc Units, Tactics, Etc)
Post by: Hannibal on September 24, 2014, 11:09:32 AM
Here's what I see as the flaw in that reasoning. You assume a ubiquitous mettle card.

No offense, but if my counter is flawed because it relies on me drawing one card, then your plan is doubly flawed.   ;D

The thing is, the odds of having any 1 card isn't actually as low as we think it is.  Let's say we have both of ours lines run right at each other.  That's having the fight start on turn 3 of the first player. 

If Hawkshold moves first (i.e. the fight starts on Hawkshold turn 3) then the Hawkshold player has had 10 CAs to draw cards (2 for turn 1 and then 4 for turns 2 & 3).  The odds of me getting a Mettle is 56%, basically a coin flip.

If the Orcs move first, then the Hawkshold player will get 8 CAs to draw cards.  That lowers the odds of drawing a Mettle to 46%, but that is still pretty close to a coin flip.  So while its not a sure thing, it's also not crazy. 


But the greater point is that while throwing handfuls of dice seems very strong, its something that can be nullified by cards that "modify the pips" as well call it out here.  Say I don't play Mettle.  Say I use Hardened on the Marauders instead: 

Normal Charge (4s & 3s):  2.33 dmg
14 attack dice (4s & 3s):  4.67 dmg
vs a Hardened (4s & 2s):  2.88 dmg
Net change:  -1.78 dmg

Note how, despite using 2 cards & a Lash you're only doing +.55 dmg over a normal charge?  You dumped a ton of CAs into one attack that I nullified by playing Hardened (or Mettle). 


Let's look at how things fare with the Wolfriders.  Only this time, let's say I use a Parry instead of a Hardened:

Normal Charge (3s & 4s):  3.33 dmg
13 dice + impact (3s & 4s):  5 dmg
vs a Hardened (4s & 2s):  3.33 dmg
Net change:  -1.67 dmg

In this case, you're not doing any additional damage, despite using 3 CAs.  In this case, I can nullify it with either a Parry or a Mettle.

In each of these cases, we're now talking 1 of 4 cards that I can draw with my 8 or 10 CAs.  Its a 73% or 82% chance (respectively) that I get one of them.  You would have devoted 3 of your 10 CAs on that attack, which I nullified with 1 of my 8 CAs.  And that's the best case scenario!  Its possible you could have expended 3 of your 8 CAs which I nullified with only 1 of my 10 CAs.


My point here is that while it feels really cool to roll all those dice, the good feeling will pretty much stop there.  Because you're dumping so many CAs into getting extra dice, you're leaving yourself very vulnerable to having those dice trumped by your opponent changing the to-hit roll.  Rolling all those dice is one of those "nice on paper" kind of things.