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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => General Battleground: Fantasy Warfare Discussion => Topic started by: Fingolfin on March 06, 2018, 06:24:58 PM

Title: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on March 06, 2018, 06:24:58 PM
The re-release of Hawkshold got me thinking about what changes would occur if and when other factions got re-released. So, without further ado, here are my ideas for what and how things should be changed if and when factions are re-released. I also included my reasoning behind the changed I made.


Undead
Total Faction Rework. Seriously, I don't think that one or two unit changes are enough to fix the problems with this faction.

Orcs
   Goblin Bomb-chucker (Elite)  6*/5*/6*  0/1  R-21”  C-11  M-2.5”  3/2/2
3/4/4 while Engaged. May not Move and Shoot. During the Movement and Command Phase, roll 1 die. If you roll a 1, this unit takes 1 damage and may not attack this turn.
My personal feelings are that this unit is too random, so I toned the random factor down a bit.
   Trolls (Elite)  5/5/7  1/4  R-  C-13  M-5”  5/4/5
Fearsome. Large.
I am of the belief that trolls are pretty terrible, both in the absolute sense and in the context of their faction, so I gave them some upgrades. I did remove the regen, as I consider it more a gimmick than anything else.

Wood Elves
   Ravenwood Bowmasters (Elite)  4/7*/6*  2/1  R-21”  C-13  M-3.5”  3/3/2
0/-2/-2 while Engaged.
Elves are supposed to be the best archers in the world, so why are the best elven archers highly situational at best? A 6 power will synergize really well with Spirit Guidance.

Dwarves
   Shortbeards  6*/4*/5*  2/1  R-  C-12  R-  C-12  M-3.5”  3/4/3
-1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
I don't really play dwarves, but I know that Shortbeards are considered "meh" at best, so I tried to give them some utility to make them worth taking.
 


Umenzi
   Initiates (Core)  6*/4*/5*  2/1  R-  C-11*  M-3.5”  3/4/3
Courage +2 while within Leadership. -1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
See "Shortbeards"

Lizardmen
   Hatchlings (Core)  5*/4/4  1/1  R-  C-11*  M-5”  3/3/3
Blood Frenzy.
It seems to me that Hatchlings have always been overshadowed by Swarmlings, both because of their 4 power and Core status, so I tried to make Hatchlings less redundant. Core alone should help with that.
   Ancients  5/5/7  1/4  R-  C-12*  M-5”  5/3/4
Large. Fearsome. Blood Frenzy.
There have been several discussions about why a green/red hitbox is bad, so I changed that for the Ancients.

High Elves
   Cygnets (Core)  6*5*/5*  2/2  R-  C-13  M-3.5”  4/3/3
Does not benefit from Maneuver Mastery. -1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
Cygnets are terrible. Here is my attempt to make them worth taking. I actually really like giving them spears, as High Elf Spearmen are generally pretty bad at the spear role.
   High Elf Outriders (Core)  6/6/5*  3*/1  R-  C-13  M-6”  3/2/1
Cavalry. 0/0/+1 and +1/0 while Charging.
I like Chariots a ton, but I've never thought their theme fit the High Elves, so I replaced them with a line cavalry unit similar to Stag Riders.
   High Elf Bowriders  4/6/5  2*/1  R-14”  C-13  M-6”  3/2/1
Cavalry. +1/0 while Charging. No Move and Shoot Penalty.
I just tried to make Bowriders a little more "horse-archery".
   High Elf Battlemages (Elite)  3/6*/6*  2/1  R-10.5”  C-13  M-3.5”  2/2/2
0/-2/-2 while Engaged. If this unit is unengaged during the Movement and Command Phase, you may forfeit its attack to draw a Command Card.
I confess, I struggled with this unit. It's hard to make a unit that doesn't clash with either scorpions or archers, and I don't know that I succeeded.
   High Elf Knights  6/6/6*  3*/2  R-  C-13  M-6”  3/2/2
Cavalry. 0/0/+1 and +1/0 while Charging.
Most of the reasons are theme oriented. Why wouldn't Knights have elder blades? I do like the idea of giving the mobility faction 6" moving knights though.
Chariots-Removed

Monsters and Mercenaries
   Wildmen Spearmen (Core)  6*/5*/5*  2/1  R-  C-11 M-3.5”  4/2/4
0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
Historically peasants are more likely to have spears than swords. I also think that Wildmen Swords were very lackluster, so I do think some utility wouldn't go amiss.
   Wildmen Sword-Removed

Dark Elves
   Slave Warriors (Core)  5/4/5  1/1  R-  C-12  M-3.5”  3/3/2
Lots of people hated the spears, so they went.
   Halfblood Slavetakers (Core)  4/5/5*  2*/1  R-  C-12  M-7”  3/1/2
Cavalry. 0/0/+1 and +1/0 while Charging.
It was ludicrous that a light cavalry unit had a knight's hitbox.
   Halfblood Spearmen (Core)  6*/5*/5*  2/2  R-  C-12  M-3.5”  4/2/4 
-1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
To be honest, I just wanted Halfblood units to have a unique hitbox.
   Halfblood Axemen (Core)  5/5/5  2/2  R-  C-12  M-3.5”  4/2/4
I was trying to make the Dark Elves a bit more Halfblood reliant, so I decided to through in these guys.
   Highbood Duskblades  5/6/6  3/1  R-  C-13  M-3.5”  4/3/3
Removed Fearsome. That is all.
   Highblood Dusklances  6/6/6*  3*/2  R-  C-13  M-5”  3/2/2
Cavalry. 0/0/+1 and +1/0 while Charging.
See above.
   Highblood Witchbows  4/6*/5*  2/1  R-14”  C-13  M-3.5”  3/3/2
0/-2/-2 while Engaged.
With the removal of the Lashmistrisses, there was room for another ranged unit, so I added this unit.
   Highblood Coven  3/6*/5*  2/1  R-10.5”  C-13  M-3.5”  2/2/2 
0/-2/-2 while Engaged. When this unit would make an Ranged Attack. If this unit is unengaged during the Movement and Command Phase, you may cast forfeit its attack to cast Witching Hour.
I always thought this unit was a bit fiddly, adding too much unnecessary complexity with three different spells, so I toned that down. You'll also note that it is now very much a support unit, meant to synergize with Witchbows and Lord of Dusk, not really do its own thing. 
   Pureblood Drake Riders (Elite)  5/6/6*  2*/3  R-  C-13  M-5”  4/2/3
Large. Fearsome. Cavalry. 0/0/+1 and +1/0 while Charging. Flying: 10.5”. 
Some pretty hefty changes. I tried to make these guys less optimized while adding some "big monster" stats. "Monster cav" hasn't been done, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
   Lord of Dusk (Elite)  4/6/6  3/1  R-17.5”  C-14  M-3.5”  4/2/2
Fearsome. Ranged Attack is LOS.
   Pureblood Standard Bearers (Elite)  3/6/6  3/2  R-  C-14  M-3.5”  3/3/2
All friendly units within 5” gain +1 Courage. (Measured from this unit's front center point to any center point on the other unit. 360°: line of sight not necessary).
   Witching Hour - Range: Battlefield. - The next time you make a ranged attack on the cursed unit with a Dark Elf unit, that attack gets +1/+1/+1. You can't play command cards on that attack.
Highblood Blades-Removed
I wanted the bread and butter of the army to be halfbloods and the elves to be specialists, so it made sense that this unit would go.
Lashmistresses-Removed
Poorly designed, infuriating unit. It had to go.
Midnight’s Chill-Removed
Evil Eye-Removed

   
What are all of your thoughts on my ideas? Love them? Hate them? Share your thoughts!
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on March 07, 2018, 01:16:36 PM
I will speak to some of your suggestions.

First the high elves, since they are my second favorite faction.   I agree that cygnets should be changed.  I find the unit doesn't really fit with the theme of the army.  I never use it and would much rather have a battle squad.  I like taking away the maneuver mastery and making them even cheaper.  Then I would consider playing them more.  If the unit was trashed all together then how about my suggestion below...

What about unit of trained Cooshie (elven dogs)  (5) 5/4  3/1  R-0  C-11 M-5"  GGG/YY/RR  No maneuver mastery, no precision.  Gains (+2) dice against routing units.

I think Chariots are fine, it's an awesome unit.  I wouldn't change a thing.

I agree with you totally about the Bowriders.  They should not have a move and shoot penalty, seems crazy that they do but wildmen horse archers don't.   Also, take away the power bonus on the charge and make them a 3/1 defense. 

The battle mages suggestion I like.  3 6/6 sounds good. Keep the card drawing ability the same.

I wouldn't make the knights movement 6".  Heavy cavalry should stay at speed 5".  I do like upgrading their offensive power to a 6 though and lowering the charge bonus to a +1 power.  Elder blade lances.....

Also would like to see Oathbound changed.  The card is just lame.  See my latest suggestion.  +2 defensive skill when routing and auto reform up to one unit, or auto pass for pre-combat fear and rout checks for up to 2 units.

I will comment on the other suggestions for the other factions as time permits.  Going to shovel some snow now.....:)



Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on March 09, 2018, 01:02:18 AM
First the high elves, since they are my second favorite faction.   I agree that cygnets should be changed.  I find the unit doesn't really fit with the theme of the army.  I never use it and would much rather have a battle squad.  I like taking away the maneuver mastery and making them even cheaper.  Then I would consider playing them more. 

I think the theme fits decently, but the unit has never really had a place. Like I said, I think giving them spears will actually make people think about taking them since High Elf Spears are pretty garbage at the standard spear role.

I think Chariots are fine, it's an awesome unit.  I wouldn't change a thing.

This one is entirely theme for me. Why would the High Elves, an army who values speed and maneuverability, use a weapon of war that limits mobility instead of horses that give mobility? I think that this is a vestige of the older Battleground idea that all factions had to be based on Warhammer, and it really shows. I love the unit, I just don't think that it fits the faction.

I agree with you totally about the Bowriders.  They should not have a move and shoot penalty, seems crazy that they do but wildmen horse archers don't.   Also, take away the power bonus on the charge and make them a 3/1 defense. 


Not sure I'm sold on a 3/1 defense. It makes the Bowriders so expensive, and they are already a unit that has some issues with being points efficient.

I wouldn't make the knights movement 6".  Heavy cavalry should stay at speed 5".  I do like upgrading their offensive power to a 6 though and lowering the charge bonus to a +1 power.  Elder blade lances.....


There are two main reasons I gave the Knights 6". First, it fits the army. Faster and more maneuverable than the opposition. Second, Knights with a 6 power but nothing else changed feel like a copy of Dusklances.

I will comment on the other suggestions for the other factions as time permits.  Going to shovel some snow now.....:)


Thanks for your input! Really curious to know what you think of my Dark Elf ideas.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on March 09, 2018, 02:27:05 PM
We'll I would not take the Cygnets, even if they had spears....High Elf Spearman are rockin' good.  6/7 3/2 when charged against cavalry/large is awesome.  If you mean they are garbage because they are a bit overpriced, I could understand that.

Why would High Elves use chariots?  To have somewhere from which to shoot their arrows of course!!!!!! And if somebody happens to get in the way, sayyyyyyyy some slow moving Dwarves....they get run over....:)

What would the bowriders be if they had a 3/1 defense and you made them "no move and shoot"?   I would pay 300+ for that, especially with manuever mastery....

Sure, make the High Elf Knights a 6" mover and hopefully that knot on your head from the multiple table flips will heal soon....


Oh yes, I have some comments on the Dark Elves....and I do like some of your ideas...some not...
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: RushAss on March 10, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
See, I love HE Knights.  Ask Brook, most of my games with High Elves feature Knights.  They are just so brutal for what you pay for them.  5"  doesn't bug me one bit.  They bring the beatdown on the charge and they are just so hard to mark on that initial turn.

I agree that Chariots seem to be a weird fit but they are such a cool unit.

I try to fit Spears into some builds, but it's so hard to justify when I can just spend 18 points and upgrade to Elder Blade Swordsmen.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on March 16, 2018, 12:31:08 PM
We'll I would not take the Cygnets, even if they had spears....High Elf Spearman are rockin' good.  6/7 3/2 when charged against cavalry/large is awesome.  If you mean they are garbage because they are a bit overpriced, I could understand that.

What I mean is that they are bad at the spear role. Spears are supposed to be cheaper than the cavalry and monsters that they are fighting, but High Elf Spearmen are often more expensive. Not to mention that a 6/6/5 profile is pretty bad against monsters.

What would the bowriders be if they had a 3/1 defense and you made them "no move and shoot"?   I would pay 300+ for that, especially with manuever mastery....

I don't know, but I would wager that they would cost too much to effective at the Flank and Harass role that they currently fulfill.

Oh yes, I have some comments on the Dark Elves....and I do like some of your ideas...some not...

I look forward to it.

See, I love HE Knights.  Ask Brook, most of my games with High Elves feature Knights.  They are just so brutal for what you pay for them.  5"  doesn't bug me one bit.  They bring the beatdown on the charge and they are just so hard to mark on that initial turn.

I agree that Chariots seem to be a weird fit but they are such a cool unit.

I try to fit Spears into some builds, but it's so hard to justify when I can just spend 18 points and upgrade to Elder Blade Swordsmen.

I love the Knights too, but so much of their design doesn't make sense to me. They are brutal on the Charge, but after that, against anything with decent toughness, they fall off.

Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on March 19, 2018, 12:23:08 PM
I agree with the slave warriors.  They shouldn't be core and the spears make them too powerful against cavalry/large.  I like the the 5/4/5 1/1 profile.

The Slavetakers unit always has been too optimized.  7" move, core, all cavalry bonuses(defense and offense), impact hit, 3 green box stat bar and good damage doing faction ability.  Also base 12 courage.  I would change their stat bar differently.  I would make it a 2/2/2.   Light fast cavalry shouldn't have 3 green boxes if that's the maximum medium and heavy cavalry get.

I like taking fearsome away from the line units.  (Highblood duskblades and Highblood dusklances amoung others)

The Standard Bearers ability makes sense.   Some courage boost by seeing the banners....I get it. 

I would keep the highblood blades.  They are a fine unit.

I have always hated the lashmistress ability.  I think it's broken.  What about this for her ability?  What if it changed the units standing order to "close on lashmistress".   You could take direct control or change it's orders on your turn to stop it from moving into it's own death.  No more pulling a unit closer on it's turn. 

I like taking away Midnight Chill and Evil Eye.  Witching Hour is good enough.

Drake Riders cause all kinds of havoc because they fly...Not sure if they need any kind of boost.  I wouldn't change them

The unit with axes........sigh.....Elves don't use axes......:)

Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on March 27, 2018, 09:32:51 AM
I agree with the slave warriors.  They shouldn't be core and the spears make them too powerful against cavalry/large.  I like the the 5/4/5 1/1 profile.

I could get with the Cge 12 for them, but not the Spears.  This unit always felt way too min/maxed for my liking.


Quote
The Slavetakers unit always has been too optimized.  7" move, core, all cavalry bonuses(defense and offense), impact hit, 3 green box stat bar and good damage doing faction ability.  Also base 12 courage.  I would change their stat bar differently.  I would make it a 2/2/2.   Light fast cavalry shouldn't have 3 green boxes if that's the maximum medium and heavy cavalry get.

I agree that 3G/2Y/2R is crazy seeing as that's the hit boxes of knights.  I could get behind it if this unit's "thing" was unit cohesion, but that's not the vibe I get here.  That said, I could go with 3G/1Y/2R.  I don't think all fast cavalry needs to be limited to 2/2/2 boxes.  That makes things pretty boring.  The fact that once these guys get out of the Green they're checking for every damage box they take captures the bully/raiders theme of the unit.  They fight hard at first but when the going gets tough they high tail it.


Quote
I like taking fearsome away from the line units.  (Highblood duskblades and Highblood dusklances amoung others)

The Standard Bearers ability makes sense.   Some courage boost by seeing the banners....I get it. 

I would keep the highblood blades.  They are a fine unit.

The unit with axes........sigh.....Elves don't use axes......:)

Yup.


Quote
I have always hated the lashmistress ability.  I think it's broken. 

I whole heartedly agree.  Even if it's balanced it's an annoying deviation from the flow of the game.


The Dark Elves are faction that isn't just changing a couple of units.  They need a top-to-bottom rethinking of how their theme translates into rules & units.


Undead
Total Faction Rework. Seriously, I don't think that one or two unit changes are enough to fix the problems with this faction.

I agree that like 3/4 of the units need to be adjusted but I don't think these guys need the wholesale rethink that the Dark Elves do.  A lot of things are minor changes that have ripple effects.  For example, something needs to be done about Skeletons but once we find that fix that's 2-3 units that get changed.  Zombies are too cheap for what they do, Ghouls need something like Wolfkin's rout defenses, I'm not sure we need two flavors of undead Troll, and so on.


Quote
Orcs
   Goblin Bomb-chucker (Elite)  6*/5*/6*  0/1  R-21”  C-11  M-2.5”  3/2/2
3/4/4 while Engaged. May not Move and Shoot. During the Movement and Command Phase, roll 1 die. If you roll a 1, this unit takes 1 damage and may not attack this turn.
My personal feelings are that this unit is too random, so I toned the random factor down a bit.

The feedback that I've gotten is that people love the randomness and the faction could use more, not less.  People like special rules and Orcs are seen by many as the place for black comedy.  One or two units aside, Orcs are fine from a balance perspective.  What they need is more "fun" stuff.

For example, I'd love to see a Swarm rule.  Something like "O:(+1)+0/+0 when attacking a unit engaged with 2 or more units with this keyword."  Then slap it on every 'Goblin' unit (and maybe Trolls, because Trolls & Goblins go together).


Quote
   Trolls (Elite)  5/5/7  1/4  R-  C-13  M-5”  5/4/5
Fearsome. Large.
I am of the belief that trolls are pretty terrible, both in the absolute sense and in the context of their faction, so I gave them some upgrades. I did remove the regen, as I consider it more a gimmick than anything else.

I used to hate the 7G-7R statline, but I've come around to it.  I think Regeneration is fine (although way overpriced).  The problem is that Trolls stay in the box because they're a D:1/3, Large unit (which makes them vulnerable to spears) and pay a lot for Pow 7 with a mediocre Off Skill (which means a unit like HE Battle Squads can pin them down).  In a faction with a lot of Power boosted units.

We're working on toning down spears and if we give the Trolls a price reduction that'd help.  But this is another place for a "fun" rule.  I'd like to do some kind of "gobble them up" or "acid vomit" kind of attack that the Troll makes instead of it's regular attack.  It'd be fewer attacks but maybe they'd be automatic hits (like impact hits) that you can only use once or twice in a game.  That'd prevent a battle squad from tying them down and introduce a little bit of flavor into the unit.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on April 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Trolls are freakin' awesome.  They just need regeneration fixed.  I think that they should regenerate a hit box EVERY m&c phase when engaged, and every other turn when not.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on April 14, 2018, 03:06:58 AM
Sorry for the late response.

I agree with the slave warriors.  They shouldn't be core and the spears make them too powerful against cavalry/large.  I like the the 5/4/5 1/1 profile.

I should note that I kept them Core. I don't think that it is unfair to have a cheap Core unit in the faction, especially with the changes I made to the unit and the faction.

The Slavetakers unit always has been too optimized.  7" move, core, all cavalry bonuses(defense and offense), impact hit, 3 green box stat bar and good damage doing faction ability.  Also base 12 courage.  I would change their stat bar differently.  I would make it a 2/2/2.   Light fast cavalry shouldn't have 3 green boxes if that's the maximum medium and heavy cavalry get.

Alexander has a 3 green, 7" mover, so there is a precedent for it.

I would keep the highblood blades.  They are a fine unit.

The reason I removed them is because I was trying to make the DE more half-elf reliant. Without a Core Highblood generalist unit, it gives the faction a the weakness of having no real medium/heavy infantry, and no above average unit that is Core.

I have always hated the lashmistress ability.  I think it's broken.  What about this for her ability?  What if it changed the units standing order to "close on lashmistress".   You could take direct control or change it's orders on your turn to stop it from moving into it's own death.  No more pulling a unit closer on it's turn. 

Problem is, at that point, the ability is pretty garbage and just a gimmick. Simpler to just remove the unit.

Drake Riders cause all kinds of havoc because they fly...Not sure if they need any kind of boost.  I wouldn't change them

I would argue that the change I made is actually a nerf. Sure, they have more stats, but they are far less optimized for the "fly around and pinch" role. They would inherit the "dragon problem", too expensive to fly around and maneuver to get the perfect flank.

The unit with axes........sigh.....Elves don't use axes......:)

Precisely the point. Elves don't use axes, and I would imagine that the Dark Elves would take pleasure in giving half-elves, lesser beings, weapons unworthy of elves. Not to mention that it gives the DE a standard, non-spear, line unit.


The Dark Elves are faction that isn't just changing a couple of units.  They need a top-to-bottom rethinking of how their theme translates into rules & units.

What changes do you think are necessary?



I agree that like 3/4 of the units need to be adjusted but I don't think these guys need the wholesale rethink that the Dark Elves do.  A lot of things are minor changes that have ripple effects.  For example, something needs to be done about Skeletons but once we find that fix that's 2-3 units that get changed.  Zombies are too cheap for what they do, Ghouls need something like Wolfkin's rout defenses, I'm not sure we need two flavors of undead Troll, and so on.

Not sure I agree. They would still have no infantry breakthrough unit and be stupidly vulnerable to spears. However, if you are suggesting adding units to compensate for that kind of weakness, I would argue that that is already somewhat reworking the faction.

The feedback that I've gotten is that people love the randomness and the faction could use more, not less.  People like special rules and Orcs are seen by many as the place for black comedy.  One or two units aside, Orcs are fine from a balance perspective.  What they need is more "fun" stuff.

For example, I'd love to see a Swarm rule.  Something like "O:(+1)+0/+0 when attacking a unit engaged with 2 or more units with this keyword."  Then slap it on every 'Goblin' unit (and maybe Trolls, because Trolls & Goblins go together).

Eh, fair enough. I like the Swarm idea; however, maybe it would make for sense to save it for a different faction.

I used to hate the 7G-7R statline, but I've come around to it.  I think Regeneration is fine (although way overpriced).  The problem is that Trolls stay in the box because they're a D:1/3, Large unit (which makes them vulnerable to spears) and pay a lot for Pow 7 with a mediocre Off Skill (which means a unit like HE Battle Squads can pin them down).  In a faction with a lot of Power boosted units.


We're working on toning down spears and if we give the Trolls a price reduction that'd help.  But this is another place for a "fun" rule.  I'd like to do some kind of "gobble them up" or "acid vomit" kind of attack that the Troll makes instead of it's regular attack.  It'd be fewer attacks but maybe they'd be automatic hits (like impact hits) that you can only use once or twice in a game.  That'd prevent a battle squad from tying them down and introduce a little bit of flavor into the unit.

I would have some concerns about special attacks, as they strike me more as gimmicks than anything else; however, I can maybe see some sort of special attack making trolls worth taking over Axemen.

Trolls are freakin' awesome.  They just need regeneration fixed.  I think that they should regenerate a hit box EVERY m&c phase when engaged, and every other turn when not.

They would still have the problem of being a 1/3, 5/5/7 large unit in a power faction. Maybe fixing regeneration wound make them worthwhile, but I am still unsure.

Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Kevin on April 14, 2018, 09:26:11 AM
Kind of a minor thing, but what bugs me about the Slave Takers is that they only get 4 attack dice but have 7 boxes.  I generally view that both attack dice and hit boxes are more-or-less a function of how many soldiers are in the unit.  (e.g. Phalanx units have more attack dice and more hit boxes than typical infantry.  Cavalry units have fewer hit boxes than typical infantry (Yeah they often have more attack dice, but IMHO that's because each person on a horse is deadlier.)   

They don't have to line up perfectly, but Slave Takers are the only unit in the game that has (for cavalry) above-average hit boxes and below-average attack dice--and I really don't see what sort of flavor explanation justifies that.  Simplest fix is to knock off a hit box; I don't care which color.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on April 15, 2018, 11:37:28 PM
I agree with Kevin that 4 dice and 7 boxes is kind of weird.  One of the reasons I like taking away the Yellow box is it matches how they'd perform on the charge.  Being a 4 die unit, they will get +2 dice on the charge in the Green but only +1 die when in the Yellow/Red.  So the 3G/1Y/2R syncs up with the 4 attack dice vibe that they hit hard, but can't really hang in there for an extended fight.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on April 16, 2018, 12:07:09 PM
Naw, they should have the green box removed.   A unit that does not call itself heavy cavalry and can move speed 7" should not have 3 green boxes.   It makes them able to weather the storm too well on the charge turn.  Which they shouldn't be able to do.

I also never liked this theme with the historical armies cavalry units that Fingolfin's post alluded to.   
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on April 16, 2018, 12:24:54 PM
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Problem is, at that point, the ability is pretty garbage and just a gimmick. Simpler to just remove the unit.
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Siren's call would not be garbage if you had to spend a command action to stop it.  Yes most people would probably use that command action to make it not happen, but it would still hurt because of the command action drain.  Given the Lashmistress' stats and cost, I would still very much consider playing the unit if I chose to play Dark Elves.  Her ranged attack is still good, her engaged attack is still good and she can mess up your day if you don't spend that command action to stop her ability.  Having no way to stop it, makes the ability broken. 
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on April 16, 2018, 01:02:46 PM
The Slavetakers unit always has been too optimized.  7" move, core, all cavalry bonuses(defense and offense), impact hit, 3 green box stat bar and good damage doing faction ability.  Also base 12 courage.  I would change their stat bar differently.  I would make it a 2/2/2.   Light fast cavalry shouldn't have 3 green boxes if that's the maximum medium and heavy cavalry get.

Alexander has a 3 green, 7" mover, so there is a precedent for it.

In fairness, we based them off of Slave Takers.  They are the ones to set precedent.


Naw, they should have the green box removed.   A unit that does not call itself heavy cavalry and can move speed 7" should not have 3 green boxes. 

I see no reason for such a rule of thumb to exist.  Hit boxes are purely about unit cohesion, nothing more.  You can have 3 Green box units that are "light cavalry" just like you can have light infantry units (i.e. D:2/1) with 4 Green boxes like heavy infantry units.


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I have always hated the lashmistress ability.  I think it's broken.  What about this for her ability?  What if it changed the units standing order to "close on lashmistress".   You could take direct control or change it's orders on your turn to stop it from moving into it's own death.  No more pulling a unit closer on it's turn. 

Problem is, at that point, the ability is pretty garbage and just a gimmick. Simpler to just remove the unit.

I can see both sides.  The current Lashmistresses are an unholy mess that fights the system too much.  That said, I think if they were kept, some permutation of what Brook suggests is the right way to go.  However we'd have to try & find a way to make sure it's not just a useless gimmick.


Siren's call would not be garbage if you had to spend a command action to stop it.  Yes most people would probably use that command action to make it not happen, but it would still hurt because of the command action drain. 

Yeah but that doesn't add anything to the play experience.  I think that's what he means by "gimmicky."  It becomes an annoying little tic-tac-toe game where you attack, then I spend a CA to change the order.

And to get any real value out of it, you'd almost have to either do a S&S or put the Lashmistresses out on an edge where people are playing the "curl back" game.  Otherwise "oh boy that unit is running towards your Lashmistresses, something they were gonna do anyway...."  And if the DE player tries to pull a unit to block others, the opponent can use order of operations to funnel the unit where he wants it to go, just like an Auto-Close unit.


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Given the Lashmistress' stats and cost, I would still very much consider playing the unit if I chose to play Dark Elves.  Her ranged attack is still good, her engaged attack is still good and she can mess up your day if you don't spend that command action to stop her ability.  Having no way to stop it, makes the ability broken.


I think "broken" isn't the right term.  You just have to remember that there will be out-of-order movement, so you plan to spend CAs during your turn to account for it or during your next turn to "fix" the damage.  I don't think that's broken in a power sense.  Just annoying as hell.  And that's really my problem with it:  the Lashmistresses are annoying to play against, until you figure it out.  Then they're borderline useless.  Take Dusklblades and get better ROI.


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I agree that like 3/4 of the units need to be adjusted but I don't think these guys need the wholesale rethink that the Dark Elves do.  A lot of things are minor changes that have ripple effects.  For example, something needs to be done about Skeletons but once we find that fix that's 2-3 units that get changed.  Zombies are too cheap for what they do, Ghouls need something like Wolfkin's rout defenses, I'm not sure we need two flavors of undead Troll, and so on.

Not sure I agree. They would still have no infantry breakthrough unit and be stupidly vulnerable to spears. However, if you are suggesting adding units to compensate for that kind of weakness, I would argue that that is already somewhat reworking the faction.

You could be right.  We make enough tweaks and it's a wholesale change.  One idea I had was to give the Ghouls Off Skill 6.

The thing we have to avoid though is that factions start getting very samey.  We don't want it to be "this is the Undead version of Orc Axemen and this is the Dark Elf version of Orc Axemen" and so on.  Maybe the Undead shouldn't have a dedicated beatstick unit but the necromancer (i.e. the player) should boost the stats of units using CAs (i.e. spells).  Just tossing out ideas.


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We're working on toning down spears and if we give the Trolls a price reduction that'd help.  But this is another place for a "fun" rule.  I'd like to do some kind of "gobble them up" or "acid vomit" kind of attack that the Troll makes instead of it's regular attack.  It'd be fewer attacks but maybe they'd be automatic hits (like impact hits) that you can only use once or twice in a game.  That'd prevent a battle squad from tying them down and introduce a little bit of flavor into the unit.

I would have some concerns about special attacks, as they strike me more as gimmicks than anything else; however, I can maybe see some sort of special attack making trolls worth taking over Axemen.

I agree that special attacks are kind of gimmicky, but honestly one of the things people have asked for is more special rules.  People like seeing the "moving parts" of a system over the symmetry of it.  For example, giving Hawkshold +1 Green box has a huge effect and it's beautifully elegant in representing their improved cohesion.  But your average casual gamer won't appreciate it.  They want to see Hawkshold erase a damage box when they pass a Yellow rout check to show them standing fast against an enemy.

So while I'm not saying we slap special rules on everything, but we should have a few more moving parts in some of the early factions because people find them fun.


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Trolls are freakin' awesome.  They just need regeneration fixed.  I think that they should regenerate a hit box EVERY m&c phase when engaged, and every other turn when not.

They would still have the problem of being a 1/3, 5/5/7 large unit in a power faction. Maybe fixing regeneration wound make them worthwhile, but I am still unsure.

Not just a Pow 7 unit in a Pow faction, but an MC 5" mover in a faction with Lash.  Pretty much everything Trolls do can be mostly done by another unit for much cheaper.  The Trolls are a perfect example of a unit that (minus regeneration) is balanced in a vacuum but in the context of it's faction is underpowered.  So the answer may in fact be that they could use a boost/cost decrease, acknowledging that they are "too good" in a vacuum but in context they are fine.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Kevin on April 16, 2018, 01:58:38 PM
Not really here-or-there, but whichever box gets knocked off Slave Takers there's precedent.

3-2-1:  Many!  Hawkshold, Stags, pretty sure Skeletons and Carthaginian cav.
3-1-2:  Roman cav.
2-2-2:  Antonians.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on April 16, 2018, 02:37:18 PM
Not really here-or-there, but whichever box gets knocked off Slave Takers there's precedent.

A list I could come up with:

3-2-1:  Hawk Light cavalry (soon to be Lancers), Stag Cavalry, Spanish Cavalry, Gallic Cavalry, Thessalian Cavalry, Sarrisophoroi

3-1-2:  Roman cav (Equites, Italian Cav, Vet Equites), Jun Horse Archers

2-2-2:  Antonians, Hawk Scouts, HE Bowriders, Wildmen Horse Archers, Allied Greek Cavalry, Satrapal Cavalry, Saka Horse Archers

2-2-1:  Skeleton Cavalry, Wolf Riders

This is another reason I like the 3-1-2 stat boxes.  Not only does it dovetail pretty well with their attack dice & the theme of "bully Dark Elves," but it's design space that isn't crowded.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Kevin on April 16, 2018, 02:59:41 PM
Yeah, I like 3-1-2 as well.

Plus the flavor:  "Hey.  WE take the slaves!  These people are fighting back and we're probably going to lose--screw this!"   ;D
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: RushAss on April 16, 2018, 03:02:02 PM
2-2-2:  Antonians, Hawk Scouts, HE Bowriders, Wildmen Horse Archers, Allied Greek Cavalry, Satrapal Cavalry, Saka Horse Archers

You made a typo here.  It should read:
2-2-2:  Awesome Death Rockets that thankfully allied themselves with the Dwarves, Hawk Scouts, HE Bowriders, Wildmen Horse Archers, Allied Greek Cavalry, Satrapal Cavalry, Saka Horse Archers

I'm a fan of knocking a yellow hit box off of the Slave Takers.  3-1-2 would work IMO.  The crummy part about that is that it would actually make the bastards cheaper and knock them below 170 points.  If we wanted to keep the unit at a higher cost perhaps we entertain the thought of adding an attack die to the profile to up it to (5) 5/5.  That would certainly give them a glass cannon feel.

I've been ruminating on the Lashmistress.  Not so much on the mechanics of the unit itself, but what it actually represents.  I've always had a hard time swallowing the concept of a single (or handful of) sorcerous lady (or ladies) with an escort of soldiers performing the way it does on the battlefield.  What is it that causes an enemy unit to head straight for them?  The term "Siren's Song" implies a magical charming type of effect.  I can totally get behind that in a role playing situation but in a war game it just feels out of place.  Like a nice try at flavor that sort of fell flat.  I'm thinking it may be worth exploring a replacement unit.  That would be challenging because I'd like to keep some sort of sourcerous feel to them but they can't step on the toes of the Lords of Dusk or the Coven.  I'd like to preserve the line unit/special magic utility unit feel.One idea I had was that a target enemy line unit would become Impulsive once the range to the HE unit reached 7".  And maybe we'd give it something very similar to a Crossbow type ranged attack to preserve the feel that the sorcerous energies do more than just effect the movement of enemy troops, but they do some damage as well.  Any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Kevin on April 17, 2018, 10:02:45 AM
IMHO the single, clean fix is fine.  They'd still be the most expensive 4-die cavalry unit in the game (not counting HE chariots), so certainly wouldn't be overpowered for their cost.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on April 17, 2018, 12:30:08 PM
Yeah, I agree with Kevin.  They're still 170pts at 3-1-2, so even though the Slavetakers are still a bit min-maxed, they can easily be neutralized by a cheap spear unit.

I still think when it comes to Dark Elves there needs to be a more pronounced game effect of that caste system they have.  One thing I floated a while back was that they have a Command Card limitation on units of weaker blood, to show that the DE lords really don't care about their underlings.

Slaves would have no checkbox ability (like now) and you can't play any cards on them.

Lowbloods have no checkbox and pitch-to-play any Command Card on them.

Halfbloods have Pain Touch, and pitch-to-play Red or Blue Command Cards on them.  (Green is no penalty)

High Bloods have Pain Touch, and pitch-to-play Blue cards.  (Red & Green is no penalty)

Purebloods:  have Pain Touch & no CC restrictions.


(This isn't a concrete proposal, just an example)
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on April 20, 2018, 12:53:13 AM
There's been a lot of discussion about the Dark Elves, but what about the other ideas? What do people think of the Cygnet changes, or the Shortbeard changes?
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: RushAss on April 20, 2018, 11:49:36 AM
Shortbeards  6*/4*/5*  2/1  R-  C-12  R-  C-12  M-3.5”  3/4/3
-1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
I don't really play dwarves, but I know that Shortbeards are considered "meh" at best, so I tried to give them some utility to make them worth taking.
 


Initiates (Core)  6*/4*/5*  2/1  R-  C-11*  M-3.5”  3/4/3
Courage +2 while within Leadership. -1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.
See "Shortbeards"

OK, I'll bite on the Shortbeards.  I play Dwarves quite often and I was never fond of Shortbeards.  The problem with Shortbeards is that while they are a cheap unit, they are not as cheap as the true chump units like Brownies, Peasants, and Possessed so creating a chump stack is just too expensive.  And unlike those other units, Shortbeard courage is questionable (Bravery helps the Peasants).  Now you can certainly play the Dwarven courage cards on the Shorties, but I'd rather save those cards for quality units.  I'd feel a bit better about Shortbeards if they where Core because you could come up with some funky min-max spamy builds, but they'r'e not.  With all said, the Shortbeards do fit a role from time to time where you have the extra 100+ points and don't want to upgrade existing troops in your builds.  They really come in handy when playing in lower points cost games.  Unlike me, Brook really likes these guys so it's not all hate for them in our neck of the woods.  Now giving them Spears would be awesome for the Dwarves in general, but I don't want to create a situation where every faction has access to cheap spear units because then we'll be leaving Large and Cavalry units in the box more often.

So... Initiates.  Or what I prefer to call "The JV Squad".  They have similar issues to the Shortbeards, but at least they are Core.  The reason you don't see hordes of Initiates crawling around because Possessed exist.  Here is a throwaway unit that is cheap to stack and has a ridiculously high courage for the points as long as they are under spiritual supervision.  So the JV Squad often stays in the box.  I don't think changing the unit will break that cycle because Umenzi Core units are just so darned cheap and then you have The Possessed on the other end.  Plus Umenzi already have super affordable spears.  I'll go as far as to say Umenzi Spears are one of the best bang-for-the-buck units in the game so creating a cheaper Spear unit isn't really required.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on April 20, 2018, 12:46:22 PM
I'll follow up on what Marcus said:

Shortbeards:  I think this unit should be put out to pasture.  There's a perfectly fine unit in the Militia that does the Shortbeard's job admirably.  In fact, as part of the retheme of Dwarves, I think the idea behind Militia & Shortbeards should be somewhat merged.  Militia should become a unit of apprentices who have not chosen their guild.  They're on the younger side and their training/cohesion is more rudimentary.

I'd replace Shortbeards with a unit of "Librarians" or "Scribes" type warriors who record battle to document the battle, recording the bravery (or shame) of certain soldiers but also which enemies deserve a Dwarven Grudge.  It'd be some kind of Triarii type unit that starts behind the line and bolsters nearby units, but can fight as a weak tank if needed.  I wouldn't want to directly copy the Triarii, but something along the same theme.


Initiates:  I'm with Marcus that cheap spears aren't what the doctor ordered.  This faction needs a more thorough re-think IMO.  Like, I'm not sure that they should have spearmen units at all, for example.  These guys strike me as more of a warrior culture, not a soldier culture.  That's not to say no spears, but maybe they only have elite spear type units, because the elite guys are the ones who've trained enough to fight in formation.

But there's other things that I think we should explore with them.  For example, a bit of story I conjured when coming up with the blurb for the website was they have "living gods" who go to war beside them (i.e. the GWE), instead of distant gods who may or may not answer prayers.  Maybe a cool bit of theming for them is that GWE is a Unique unit that has some distinct statline.  Like the current GWE could be "the tough one" who just has beefy stats.  But the could be another GWE who has Leadership (provides a Cge boost and trips special stat abilities).  Or maybe another one has a "faith armor bubble" for nearby units (don't know what that means, I'm just talking ideas here).  Maybe there's one that lets you draw +1 Command Card every turn, but you only keep equal to the CAs you spent to draw (i.e. spend 3 CAs to draw cards, you draw 4, then discard one of your choice).

There was also an idea I had for them to allow Umenzi units to "level up" during the game.  Maybe they get stat bonuses for beating enemies, because they take tropies & that somehow super-charges them.

Obviously not all of these ideas will work, because there's already the spells & Leadership so there's a fair bit of complexity in the faction.  But I'm just explaining that I think this is an faction that could have a little more flavor & theme that can be reflected in the rules.


Lizardmen:  This is another faction that I think should should be looked at from a theme point of view.  For example, should they have spearmen?  Are they really organized enough to fight like that?  To me they seem to be semi-feral, closer to wild animals than a society that could form rank.

I have no specific ideas for them, or even proposals.  I'm just saying that these guys need a complete re-think before we start designing stats.


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High Elves
   Cygnets (Core)  6*5*/5*  2/2  R-  C-13  M-3.5”  4/3/3
Does not benefit from Maneuver Mastery. -1/0/0 while Charging.  0/+1/0 against Cavalry and/or Large Units.  0/0/+2 while holding against Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large Units.

I'm good with this.  I think Cygnets could easily find a place in the army with a statline like this.


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Monsters and Mercenaries
   Wildmen Spearmen (Core) 
   Wildmen Sword-Removed

I'm not sure I agree with either of these.  I think Wildmen Sword fits fine and I'm not seeing Wildmen Spear "fitting" in the theme here.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: gornhorror on April 20, 2018, 02:00:26 PM
I wouldn't change a thing with the Shortbeards.  The unit is weak, but in the context of the army it's just fine.  With that command deck, you can save their ass multiple times with the courage boosters.

Something along those lines...

Marcus knows how good they are.....:)  When I kicked his ass with about 10 of them....
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on April 20, 2018, 08:57:00 PM
I'd replace Shortbeards with a unit of "Librarians" or "Scribes" type warriors who record battle to document the battle, recording the bravery (or shame) of certain soldiers but also which enemies deserve a Dwarven Grudge.  It'd be some kind of Triarii type unit that starts behind the line and bolsters nearby units, but can fight as a weak tank if needed.  I wouldn't want to directly copy the Triarii, but something along the same theme.

Sounds interesting. I would look to find something other than a flat courage boost for their buff ability,  but sounds cool.

Can you explain your thoughts on Spearmen more? Because historically peasants, people like Wildmen or Umenzi, used almost exclusively spears due to their cheap cost and versatility. Are you thinking that Battleground "Spearmen" are more a result of training and formation and less about the weapon used? If so, it might make sense to create a "lesser spearmen" stat for units that use spears, but don't have the training. Something like, 0/+1/+1 against Charging Units and 6 dice, but nothing else.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on April 21, 2018, 12:08:24 PM
I'd replace Shortbeards with a unit of "Librarians" or "Scribes" type warriors who record battle to document the battle, recording the bravery (or shame) of certain soldiers but also which enemies deserve a Dwarven Grudge.  It'd be some kind of Triarii type unit that starts behind the line and bolsters nearby units, but can fight as a weak tank if needed.  I wouldn't want to directly copy the Triarii, but something along the same theme.

Sounds interesting. I would look to find something other than a flat courage boost for their buff ability,  but sounds cool.

Yeah and Dwarves already get a lot of Couage bumps for their cards, so I'd want it to be something else.  I don't know what, though.


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Can you explain your thoughts on Spearmen more? Because historically peasants, people like Wildmen or Umenzi, used almost exclusively spears due to their cheap cost and versatility. Are you thinking that Battleground "Spearmen" are more a result of training and formation and less about the weapon used?

Exactly.  You can put a Wusthof knife in my hand, doesn't make me a gourmet chef.   Take a look at Carthage's Gallic Warriors:  most of them have spears, but that is not a spear unit.  Formation makes the unit fighting style, not the weapon.  (Or, more accurately, not just the weapon).  And that formation is dictated by the context.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Fingolfin on April 22, 2018, 06:03:07 PM
Some thoughts inspired by Hannibal:

Dwarves: For the Librarian unit, we could give them an ability to allow nearby units to unmark the Rune of Uruz for some additional benefit. Maybe pair this with an ability that gives them or nearby allied units bonuses if enemy units are destroyed near them.

Umenzi: Never played the faction, so I won't speak much. However, I imagine the "buff elephant" would have a higher cost than the standard, but that would probably be fine in the context of the faction.

Lizardmen: The faction flavor as written doesn't seem to give much indication of their societal level, so I imagine we could go two routes with them. We could make them a fairly developed society, with fairly organized units and spearmen, or we could make them more tribal. I personally prefer the second option, since a faction without spears would be interesting. Not to mention, we could emphasize the dinosaurs more.
Title: Re: Faction Re-release Ideas
Post by: Hannibal on May 04, 2018, 04:03:35 PM
Sorry for the late reply.  Been crazy over here.

Umenzi: Never played the faction, so I won't speak much. However, I imagine the "buff elephant" would have a higher cost than the standard, but that would probably be fine in the context of the faction.

My thought is that the 'standard' elephant would morph into the 'pure fighter' elephant.  The others would be weaker (in some way) but provide battlefield effects.



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Lizardmen: The faction flavor as written doesn't seem to give much indication of their societal level, so I imagine we could go two routes with them. We could make them a fairly developed society, with fairly organized units and spearmen, or we could make them more tribal. I personally prefer the second option, since a faction without spears would be interesting. Not to mention, we could emphasize the dinosaurs more.

I was brainstorming the other day and I started to wonder about making them hate cities and culture.  Like religiously.  They're druidic crusaders who think that anything above stone-age level is an abomination.  So they hate cities, ships, etc.