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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => General Battleground: Historical Warfare Discussion => Topic started by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 02:41:25 PM

Title: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 02:41:25 PM
I was just noodling around and came up with a couple of fairly missile intensive Persia builds:

Build 1:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4291/35749123560_8e74df6794_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wt2AXj)
2 Satrapal Cavalry, 2 Kardakes, 1 Sparabara, 6 Thanvabara, 1 Saka Horse Archers, 2 Scythed Chariots, 2 Immortals = 2194 points
16 units, 4 core, 8 javelin dice, 34 LOS range dice @ 10.5" (or more if you need the skill and King's Favor on the Immortals)
You can place hold objectives to get the flanking units in this position, the Chariots would probably be on close.

Let's assume an open map for simplicity. Persia isn't going to quite get all the LOS range dice right away, but I think it can get most of them most of the time, and all of them some of the time. The idea on the Saka Horse Archers and the Chariots is that Saka can win a degenerate endgame and Chariots can mess the opponent up if they let them break free and roll the line.

So what I want to know is do you think this is a decent stand and shoot build? What do you think is the best way to crack this nut? Also, Persia spent a command action on levies, do you think there are factions (maybe Dark Elves?) with enough defense skill that it should spend another on King's Favor?

Build 2:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4310/36098096276_a421332f99_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WZSboh)
3 Satrapal Cavalry, 1 Kardakes, 2 Sparabara, 6 Thanvabara, 2 Saka Horse Archers, 2 Immortals = 2200 points
16 units, 4 core, 12 javelin dice, 42!!! LOS range dice @ 10.5" (or more if you need the skill and King's Favor on the Immortals)
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 03:13:29 PM
Also are there any refinements you would add? Do you think 1 command action is enough if you are just sitting there pulling cards and you should therefore give both Immortals King's Favor? Would you try to squeak out a couple extra points and go for Royal Guard instead of Chariots hoping for some 'free' Kings Favor?

Did you notice how often the Thanvabara routing behind a friendly unit immediately puts them in position to shoot again after the automatic rally to hold?
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 24, 2017, 03:45:58 PM
My first gut reaction is that this is a strong build but those wings are gonna spend a little time getting into place, which will mitigate the effects of their shots.  As far as beating it, most likely any one of your units is going to be stronger in a straight up match (even in the Yellow from all the shooting), so my counter would be a Deep Battle style assault.  Engage on a wide front wherever possible and exploit whatever breakthrough happens.

In my experience what happens with a S&S is somewhere the dice roll up and somewhere the dice go to crap.  That can be really bad if you're trying to go with a Stars & Scrubs build (i.e. 2 Knights and a bunch of chumps) because if the flank protector unit to that Knight goes down, now the Knights either peel back or get pinched.  The key to a Deep Battle mentality is don't try to force a breakthrough, but rather take advantage of it.  So if those Great Swords suddenly have to peel back to prevent the Satrapal cavalry & Saka cavalry from flanking them...so be it.  But on the other side those Spear of yours hit his Sparabara and it's all over.

And yeah the degenerate endgame favors the chariots.  That's why I like the default mission being Breaking Point.   8)


Did you notice how often the Thanvabara routing behind a friendly unit immediately puts them in position to shoot again after the automatic rally to hold?

Yup.  Very clever.  Of course they still have to survive free swings.  A charging (5)5/5 unit in the Yellow will 2-3pts and with a Cge 10 means two-thirds of those Thanvabara are gonna evaporate. 

(Yeah you can drop a Thousand Nations on them, but that's frankly a win for me if you're using one of your best cards there)
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 03:52:22 PM
A charging (5)5/5 unit in the Yellow will 2-3pts and with a Cge 10 means two-thirds of those Thanvabara are gonna evaporate.

Are you sure you are crunching the numbers right? In my experience the Thanvabara evaporate less than half the time. Maybe even less than a third.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: RushAss on July 24, 2017, 03:56:45 PM
Did you notice how often the Thanvabara routing behind a friendly unit immediately puts them in position to shoot again after the automatic rally to hold?
Yeah, that's some nice layout right there.  And I thought my Dwarven S&S build was mean.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 24, 2017, 04:04:03 PM
A charging (5)5/5 unit in the Yellow will 2-3pts and with a Cge 10 means two-thirds of those Thanvabara are gonna evaporate.

Are you sure you are crunching the numbers right?

Probably not  ;D

I was thinking a unit in the Green which should do 2pts (94% of the time) and then the Thanvabara fail the yellow check 62.5% of the time.  When you factor in the Yellow check, 67% of the time you'll do 2pts.

So evaporating less than the half the time is a bit off, but so is my statement that 2/3 of them will evaporate.  I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.  A little more than half of those Thanvabara will go away on the charge.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 04:18:38 PM
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My first gut reaction is that this is a strong build but those wings are gonna spend a little time getting into place,
I think you might be overestimating the delay. if you plan it out, the amount of time to get in that position should be minimal. On second look, the Sparabara in that first build should probably go somewhere else, but the Satrapal Cav don't care, they are just 3.5" range anyhow, and the Saka are pretty quick and don't suffer move and shoot, so they would probably have a target right away unless the opponent is far enough away that they are taking a long time to get there so I would probably chalk that up in the 'still counts as a win' column. The Taka bara get to deploy out of zone so they I don't think that is an issue for them either.

In terms of a Deep Battle Assault, I have two questions:
Does that mean you are always taking that build vs Persia on the chance you are facing stand and shoot, or are you playing rock paper scissors?
Do you realize how awful it is going to be to engage the flanks in the wrong order without flank support? I am thinking that Persia should preserve his command actions instead of taking King's favor for this reason, to force the opponent to shuffle around, delay, wait for flank support etc. Which is going to be brutal to take those extra turns of missile fire. I might be overestimating this issue, so that is something to try out in the field.

Edit: I moved Sparabara on the first build to get into position, I think it was a 3 way trade of unit positions. Anyhow, thanks for the refinement, Corey.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 04:23:02 PM
Some terrain will favor this build and some will cut against it, and as you say the scenario is a factor, too. One mistake I commonly make is treating a scenario like total warfare when it isn't. Gotta stop doing that.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: RushAss on July 24, 2017, 04:37:42 PM
What do you think is the best way to crack this nut?

I can't counter with an ideal build to take this on because you won't know you're facing it until you've already chosen your army.  What I will say is that since you've used Levies, you're opponent is probably going to choose to go first.  That could be a problem if he's got something zippy on the flanks that is also tough on ranged fire like Antonians or Stags.  On the other hand, Companion Cavalry are going to absolutely hate it.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 05:00:19 PM
What do you think is the best way to crack this nut?

I can't counter with an ideal build to take this on because you won't know you're facing it until you've already chosen your army.  What I will say is that since you've used Levies, you're opponent is probably going to choose to go first.  That could be a problem if he's got something zippy on the flanks that is also tough on ranged fire like Antonians or Stags.  On the other hand, Companion Cavalry are going to absolutely hate it.

I assume that the opponent will elect to go first, but I don't think that is a huge issue b/c range 10.5 instead of 14. I tend to agree with Corey that Deep Battle Assault is a better answer than a couple zippy units, especially on that first build, but maybe I am wrong. I think there is a lot of potential to unleash chariot style fury if the wings get sacrificed in a pinchfest but that might be easier to avoid than I am envisioning.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 24, 2017, 05:20:12 PM
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My first gut reaction is that this is a strong build but those wings are gonna spend a little time getting into place,
I think you might be overestimating the delay. if you plan it out, the amount of time to get in that position should be minimal.

You're probably right.  Like I said, it was my first gut impression.


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In terms of a Deep Battle Assault, I have two questions:
Does that mean you are always taking that build vs Persia on the chance you are facing stand and shoot, or are you playing rock paper scissors?

Sort of.  I tend to take heavier builds against Persia because it's Persia.  I tend to think of D:2/2 units as my chump units and D:2/1 type units as "something you stack like a Mo-fo."  Persia has very heavy units and very light units, but not much in between.  If you take lots of D:2/1 units against them you're gonna have a bad time, because they're designed to beat exactly that type of army.  So I tend to build on the heavy side with them.


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Do you realize how awful it is going to be to engage the flanks in the wrong order without flank support?


Sure.  Because if you engage frontally you expose to a pinch the center.  But also, because a bunch of things on the flanks are lighter you can also try to blow through them before you get flanked on the next turn.  The Saka Horse Archers, for example, are only 4 dice.  If I have a T3 unit, I'll let you have the flank a lot of times if it means I kill that other Saka unit when I charge.

These are just hypotheticals mind you.  I'd like to see this build in action.  It's a strong build and would be fun to try & come with ways to beat it.


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I am thinking that Persia should preserve his command actions instead of taking King's favor for this reason,

As a guideline, I don't like dropping down below 3 CAs in a 2,000pt game.  I've broken that rule a lot and usually I end up feeling it that lost CA at some crucial part of the game.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 24, 2017, 09:44:18 PM
I want to save this list as a less shooty alternative. There are no javelins, less 10.5" range dice than the other two builds, and no cavalry, but considerably more resiliency when the melee starts.

Build 3:

3 Kardakes, 1 Mercenary Hoplites, 2 Sparabara, 5 Thanvabara, 2 Takabara, 2 Immortals = 2198 points
15 units, 4 core, 31 LOS range dice @ 10.5"

This one is for Brook, it uses all 7 Thanvabara.
2 Satrapal Cavalry, 2 Kardakes, 1 Sparabara, 7 Thanvabara, 1 Takabara, 2 Scythed Chariots, 2 Immortals = 2199 points
17 units, 4 core, 8 javelin dice, 33 LOS range dice @ 10.5"
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4317/36158439305_6493d50d0b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X6csgk)
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: GoIndy on July 25, 2017, 11:37:48 AM
OK....here is my first thought, presuming I get to "know" this is what is coming.  Not saying this is genius or anything, but generally how I'd go about the problem.

I'm going with the scenario that you got 1/2 CA's a turn, but even three wouldn't be horrendous.

1)  I'd have a healer mage, maybe two.  No matter what I did later in the following steps, I'd delay engage for as long as possible.  I'd be drawing cards 4 to 1/2/3, and I'd be applying an aura on every useful unit.  Once everyone is aura'd up, and I am holding my entire dang deck.  Also, depending on the faction, if I was playing Dwarves or Mercs or Men, every stinking dude is gonna have every spoils set, bravery, rune, whatever. 
2)  I'd go down the line on mostly one side, and since I had basically forever to set this up, I'm gonna have my guys lined up right.  And no matter what, I'm gonna have a ridiculous card advantage everywhere. 

Now, after I thought about this, I thought about something else that might be as humorous.
What if I just have two bowmasters and start firing away at your flanks.  You'll have a hard time reorganizing your lines with limited command actions, and even a sound the charge, just means everyone going pell mell forward.  Would be interesting.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Kevin on July 25, 2017, 12:36:32 PM
Yeah, those two forward-jutting flanks are just begging to get smashed, one way or another.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 12:44:24 PM
I dunno about that healer mage: 30 or 40 dice is like 7-10 damage a turn; talk about skating uphill...
I have taken an even less shooty Persia build than this against Bowmasters (I had an elephant IIRC). 7 Thanvabara and I was dealing out damage faster than the bowmasters. The evil thing about Thanvabara against a shooty build is that they get +2 against shooting.

Yeah, those two forward-jutting flanks are just begging to get smashed, one way or another.
That is what those forward jutting flanks are for. Maybe get some spite damage, but mainly to delay. Unlike most builds, I would not mind my opponent taking this one apart piece by piece... just so long as I can shoot him in the face while he takes his time doing it. I think the success or failure of this build depends more than anything else upon how efficiently the opponent can take it apart. That is going to depend on the dice to a certain extent and on timing to a large extent. The thing that makes me optimistic is that there are things that can be done to actively mess with the opponents timing and with 15-17 units one might even be able to get that ball rolling during deployment and issuing SOs. The more experienced the player the harder that is going to be, of course.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 25, 2017, 01:35:40 PM
Yeah I wouldn't delay engaging at all.  You might eke out a 1 or 2 CC advantage per turn, but 30 ranged dice a turn that's a bad trade.  Even if you assume every single one of those shots is at long range or moved, that's 5pts a turn against a D:2/2 line.  And that's the worst case scenario for Persia.

And I certainly wouldn't try to outshoot Persia.  I wouldn't pull points off the line unless it's a melee unit put into reserve for when a hole opens in your line.  Otherwise, you put everything you've got into your line. 

If he takes a shooty swarm like this, do not dance & delay.  Because with this build most of his units are gonna be worse than you in melee, so get up in his face as fast as you can and hit him with everything you've got.  (As much as you can without getting pinched, of course).

On that note...

This one is for Brook, it uses all 7 Thanvabara.
2 Satrapal Cavalry, 2 Kardakes, 1 Sparabara, 7 Thanvabara, 1 Takabara, 2 Scythed Chariots, 2 Immortals = 2199 points
17 units, 4 core, 8 javelin dice, 33 LOS range dice @ 10.5"
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4317/36158439305_6493d50d0b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X6csgk)

I see a couple of flaws with this deployment Ron.  First, you don't really have much of a threat on the flanks, unlike previous builds which had Saka Horse Archers & Satrapal Cavalry.  Those two units are light, but paired together can be nasty because I have to put something there to deal with that threat.  You really only have skirmishers on the one flank and only Sparabara on the other.  Which means I can ignore the left flank and put only a token something on the right flank to concentrate on the middle.  Go ahead, flank me with Thanvabara, I don't care.   ;D

(Mind you, this assumes a Breaking Point type mission)

Second is that Takabara being deployed forward like that.  Not being skirmishers, they have to deploy in the regular DZ.  Which will push back the Immortals, meaning there's at least one turn where they'll suffer the move & shoot penalty (and I'm 90% sure M+S is going away soon).  With a 10.5" range that might not be a huge deal as you might be out of range anyway.  But it's something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: RushAss on July 25, 2017, 02:10:14 PM
And I certainly wouldn't try to outshoot Persia.  I wouldn't pull points off the line unless it's a melee unit put into reserve for when a hole opens in your line.  Otherwise, you put everything you've got into your line. 

(http://www.homemade-preschool.com/images/bring-on-the-beef-bw.png)
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 02:15:13 PM
I see a couple of flaws with this deployment Ron.  First, you don't really have much of a threat on the flanks, unlike previous builds which had Saka Horse Archers & Satrapal Cavalry.  Those two units are light, but paired together can be nasty because I have to put something there to deal with that threat.  You really only have skirmishers on the one flank and only Sparabara on the other.  Which means I can ignore the left flank and put only a token something on the right flank to concentrate on the middle.  Go ahead, flank me with Thanvabara, I don't care.   ;D

(Mind you, this assumes a Breaking Point type mission)

Second is that Takabara being deployed forward like that.  Not being skirmishers, they have to deploy in the regular DZ.  Which will push back the Immortals, meaning there's at least one turn where they'll suffer the move & shoot penalty (and I'm 90% sure M+S is going away soon).  With a 10.5" range that might not be a huge deal as you might be out of range anyway.  But it's something to keep in mind.
I got lazy and cut and pasted, so I think the layout might need to be tweaked a bit more but...
1. If you ignore the flanks entirely I think I could use direct control to put another Thanv in your face if I wanted, or let the scythed chariots get to work and make that decision on the fly with modest CA investment.
2. I don't need to deploy the Takabara out of zone, I deploy them as normal and the whole stack moves 2.5" and no move and shoot penalty because it is 1 MC less than 3.5", is that not how it works?
3. I am still tweaking things and one thing I think might work well is trading the Kardakes with the closest Thanvabara. So getting pinched by Thanvabara don't care, but getting pinched by Kardakes not so much.
4. I have changed my focus from just noodling around to brainstorming actual builds I might drag out in the near future so some of these are probably non-starters. One thing I am trying to keep in mind is unit positions I can legitimately swap around because with 15-17 units I am going to have a lot of info before I put my last few units down.
5. On a related note, now that the cat is out of the bag in my mind I need at least 2 distinct and legit versions or my opponent is going to know exactly what is going on when I say I have 15-17 units.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 25, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
I got lazy and cut and pasted, so I think the layout might need to be tweaked a bit more but...

No worries.  Just helping you refine the build a bit.

Quote
1. If you ignore the flanks entirely I think I could use direct control to put another Thanv in your face if I wanted, or let the scythed chariots get to work and make that decision on the fly with modest CA investment.

Yeah if you find a way to get those Chariots on the flank it's a whole 'nother story.   8)   Although controlling them requires a bit of precision, since you can't DC them or modify their Standing Order.


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2. I don't need to deploy the Takabara out of zone, I deploy them as normal and the whole stack moves 2.5" and no move and shoot penalty because it is 1 MC less than 3.5", is that not how it works?

For now...   ;D


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3. I am still tweaking things and one thing I think might work well is trading the Kardakes with the closest Thanvabara. So getting pinched by Thanvabara don't care, but getting pinched by Kardakes not so much.

Yeah if you put an actual unit out on that flanks, I start to care. 


Quote
4. I have changed my focus from just noodling around to brainstorming actual builds I might drag out in the near future so some of these are probably non-starters. One thing I am trying to keep in mind is unit positions I can legitimately swap around because with 15-17 units I am going to have a lot of info before I put my last few units down.
5. On a related note, now that the cat is out of the bag in my mind I need at least 2 distinct and legit versions or my opponent is going to know exactly what is going on when I say I have 15-17 units.

Don't forget the Persian Beef build:  4 Merc. Hoplites, 2 Elephants, Levies 1, and 168pts left to play with.  That's 2 Thanvabara (& 1 CC), or 1 Sparabara, or 1 Scythed Chariots, or 1 Satrapal Cavalry.  With a little bit of terrain this is a brutal build.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 03:53:51 PM
OK, so here is another 17 unit version:
2 Satrapal Cavalry, 2 Kardakes, 5 Sparabara, 6 Thanvabara, 1 Scythed Chariots, 1 Royal Guard = 2200 points
17 units, 4 core, 8 javelin dice, 38 LOS range dice @ 10.5"
This one could be deployed at the very back of the zone just as easily. Not sure if that would be an advantage or not.
No Immortals but a Royal Guard and a Chariots to help out those mediocre melee dice.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4296/35325728254_fae212b890_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VPBAhf)
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 05:14:45 PM
Corey, I know it was a long time ago, but I noticed that this playtest build (http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,5134.msg31840.html#msg31840) was similar in some respects to mine, but obviously you did not use the "wing formation" I am thinking about using. The fact that Scott made some key checks obviously didn't help you, but I am also wondering your thoughts on how many more checks you could have forced by getting the Sparabara dice you blocked by putting the Thanvabara in front? Also, do you remember anything about the early card play or lack thereof? Also do you think you got 180ish points of value from Immortals instead of Sparabara?
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 25, 2017, 05:34:09 PM
Corey, I know it was a long time ago, but I noticed that this playtest build (http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,5134.msg31840.html#msg31840) was similar in some respects to mine, but obviously you did not use the "wing formation" I am thinking about using.

Correct.  I used a formation that Kevin had come up with during his playtesting of AvP.  I wouldn't think to try for that wing formation because my gut impression would be that you'd spend 1-2 turns moving into place and taking the move & shoot penalty that would render your shots pretty much useless.  And if I did M+S, I'd have concerns it'd take too long to set up at all.  Part of that may be that Scott has become very good at disrupting complex plans by timely aggression.  He may not get the perfect matchups or timing, but he does more harm to by disrupting your plans.

Also remember that at this time, the current skirmisher rules weren't used. 


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The fact that Scott made some key checks obviously didn't help you, but I am also wondering your thoughts on how many more checks you could have forced by getting the Sparabara dice you blocked by putting the Thanvabara in front?

Perhaps.  I gave up the long range shot (so 4 dice at 2s & 2s), which I didn't see as that big of a loss.  Also, you might be able to approximate the benefit of getting that extra shot with the fact that I did roll up on my shooting early.  Of the 4 units into which I was shooting, they all took 4pts when they should have taken 3 on the way in.


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Also, do you remember anything about the early card play or lack thereof?

Uh, not terribly well.  I can say that I got both Blot Out the Sun cards and didn't get Thousand Nations at all.  And I'm almost positive that Scott didn't play any cards against the shooting.  As a rule he thinks that using a Command Card on a 3 or 4 die attack (especially one needing 3s and 2s at best) is a waste of a card.  So I'd bet he used like maybe 1-2 Blue cards before we became engaged.


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Also do you think you got 180ish points of value from Immortals instead of Sparabara?

180?  Not seeing where you got that number.  I will say that my Immortals blew a crucial check that may well have cost me the game.  Not sure if that answers your question though...
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 05:51:28 PM
There is a 90 point difference between Sparabara and Immortals, so swapping 2 of them out =  180 points. I was wondering why you opted for the 6 skill dice against Dwarves, and whether you feel you got those 180 points worth of extra value. Also bear in mind I understand I am looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. Also it is way easier with the new skirmisher rules to get out of your own way, so what may have been worth it then would not be worth it now. My rough estimate is that at def skill 2 it would be a push to get 50% more dice or dice that hit 50% more of the time, but some Dwarves are def skill 1, so I was wondering if you remember.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 05:58:12 PM
Overall, I am banking on a substantial delaying effect from forcing the opponent to either split his force in 3 directions or suffer consequences. Otherwise it would be better to go for quality over quantity. Your report on Dwarves vs Persia is the only relevant field data I can use as a baseline, but I am going to give this a shot either way.
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: Hannibal on July 25, 2017, 06:11:38 PM
There is a 90 point difference between Sparabara and Immortals, so swapping 2 of them out =  180 points. I was wondering why you opted for the 6 skill dice against Dwarves, and whether you feel you got those 180 points worth of extra value.

Aaaah...  I took the Immortals because I figured he'd have Militia somewhere in there and the D:2/2 is pretty vulnerable to them.  But also because I assumed (correctly) that I'd be seeing Antonians.  The Skill 6 means I could use Accuracy & Strike cards on them & actually produce results against those Antonians.  The idea is that with the Immortals able to shoot I'd force him into a bad place of having to charge Holding spearmen or delay & get whittled down.


Overall, I am banking on a substantial delaying effect from forcing the opponent to either split his force in 3 directions or suffer consequences.

Yeah and the trick to beating it is to keep perspective and accept the least bad.  Sometimes it'd worth taking a pinch to get engaged, because the other option is eat another round of shooting without attacking back.


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Otherwise it would be better to go for quality over quantity. Your report on Dwarves vs Persia is the only relevant field data I can use as a baseline, but I am going to give this a shot either way.

Yeah I really want to see this in action.  Of course, it's builds like this that are why Unit Objective modifiers are gonna start coming with a penalty.   8)
Title: Re: Persia: A new kind of stand and shoot?
Post by: BubblePig on July 25, 2017, 06:19:35 PM
Yeah I really want to see this in action.  Of course, it's builds like this that are why Unit Objective modifiers are gonna start coming with a penalty.   8)

Another reason for my using this 'parabolic' formation is that there are just going to be times where 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 units all have the same closest enemy unit. I am in the habit of letting my ranged units shoot closest enemy most of the time, it really isn't that hard. Plus the dice are just going to be hot in places and cold in others, and I feel I am usually better off drawing an extra card than wasting an action changing targets. I am just a miser who likes to let statistical variability choose my target of opportunity for me and it hasn't bit me on the bum very often. There would doubtless be times where I can 2 for 1, and move a Thanvabara to both delay things further and pour it on where there is a weak unit. Misers love 2fers.  :D