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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => House Rules, Unofficial Variants and Proposals => Topic started by: gornhorror on January 31, 2016, 11:48:45 AM

Title: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on January 31, 2016, 11:48:45 AM
After playing some battleground this past Friday Marcus and I came up with a possible change to the Fearsome ability as it pertains to Large units.  (I know some units have fearsome/terrifying that are not large, and they would not figure in to this change).

What we discussed would be to have any units that attack large units on the charge turn get (+0) -1/+0.  No fearsome roll required.  Our reasoning for this is because of the shear reach of the large units.  Almost like the old Outreached rule.

Now that I think about it perhaps we could simplify it even further and just give large units a D:+1/+0 on the charge turn for the same reason. 

The fearsome ability is really good only when it works, which isn't that often.  Giving them an ability that they can always rely on I think is the way to go.  Obviously our suggestion is not as weakening to the opposition as when they get a (-1) -1/-1 with the current rules.   This way the large units get a little help.  I know that Large units get a discount with their pricing but it still doesn't seem balanced to me. 

We will try this out and see how it goes.  I'm sure it will be mentioned in further session report posts.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Zelc on January 31, 2016, 12:23:06 PM
Can I ask what the problem is with Large units? AFAIK large units are perfectly fine with the dice charge, it's just they're sometimes saddled with some overcosted abilities. Fearsome is a 25%-33% chance of cutting their charge turn damage in half. It's streaky, but that's not bad. The bigger problem is people forget about it :).

List of large units:
Skeleton Trolls (fine)
Zombie Trolls (great)
Giant Catapult (overcosted due to ranged attack)
Trolls (slightly overcosted due to Regeneration)
Treant (great)
Giant War Elephant (great)
Ancients (great)
T-Rex (great; rest of Lizardmen army isn't well-equipped to support it)
M&M large units (all have problems due to the faction and being defensive-focused)
Elephants (great)
Drake Riders (hard to evaluate because of the state of Flying rules)
Indian Elephant (great)
Jade Dragon (great)
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on January 31, 2016, 04:48:49 PM
Can I ask what the problem is with Large units? AFAIK large units are perfectly fine with the dice charge, it's just they're sometimes saddled with some overcosted abilities. Fearsome is a 25%-33% chance of cutting their charge turn damage in half. It's streaky, but that's not bad. The bigger problem is people forget about it :).

List of large units:
Skeleton Trolls (fine)
Zombie Trolls (great)
Giant Catapult (overcosted due to ranged attack)
Trolls (slightly overcosted due to Regeneration)
Treant (great)
Giant War Elephant (great)
Ancients (great)
T-Rex (great; rest of Lizardmen army isn't well-equipped to support it)
M&M large units (all have problems due to the faction and being defensive-focused)
Elephants (great)
Drake Riders (hard to evaluate because of the state of Flying rules)
Indian Elephant (great)
Jade Dragon (great)

All I'm saying is I don't like Fearsome in it's current form.  It's should be something that large units always gain benefit from on the charge turn.  A 25-33% chance of it activating seems like a pretty bad deal if you ask me.  It should have more bite.  

BTW, while we're on the topic of Fearsome, I wish that they never gave the line units in the Dark Elf faction the fearsome ability.  It should of been something only given to large(colossal too) units.

Just like you say, "My goal is to take a faction(in this case certain units) and make both their theme and their gameplay more interesting."
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: BubblePig on January 31, 2016, 05:14:31 PM
I like fearsome in its current form as well, but I do think terrifying is a bit underwhelming. And IMO unfortunately that means that terrifying would either be brokenly good or even more underwhelming by comparison if you improve fearsome very much.

I wonder which units specifically do you think need the help, because I just don't think it is that big of an issue in most factions, but for Undead and M&M it hurts disproportionately because the opponent will know that chances are overwhelmingly good they will get better value out of spears (and maybe other units like dwarven ballista) than they are paying. So instead of giving large units help because the spear bonus is too good (which IMO unbalances other things in turn which would then need to be corrected etc.) maybe the way to go is to lower the spear bonus against those factions specifically.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on January 31, 2016, 05:50:08 PM
The frustrating thing about Fearsome or Terrifying is that it's binary.  It either works or it doesn't.  If you have a few scary units out and your opponent rolls well and never fails a fear check, you've wasted points for absolutely zero benefit.  Conversely, if you have a bunch of scary guys in play (easy to do with Undead, Dark Elves, and M&M) and your opponent is unfortunate in their fear checks, they could be hosed.  Brook's proposition is that we mellow out the steep penalty for failing the check and make it work every time.  The effected units still only suffer the penalty when charged by scary units as the rule is currently written.  The initial idea was that the penalty would be (-1) -0/0 and that's also a viable option.  Yes, that's the old Shaken rule liberated from the Fearsome rule.  But the point is that Fearsome is either awesome or useless and that can be frustrating from both sides of the table.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Zelc on January 31, 2016, 06:36:03 PM
It's certainly an option. There are many binary effects in BGFW, most noticeably Rout checks. I feel like Fear's one of those things you can't really rely on, but can certainly play a big role in winning you the game when it triggers. To be fair, Fear's not very expensive either, and it's much cheaper than the Cavalry defense on charge. It's been a while since I've played with/against lots of Large units, but my impression has always been that outside of a few examples, they're perfectly viable units for their cost. If you'd rather have a more consistent option, -1 dice on the charge could work.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: BubblePig on January 31, 2016, 07:55:30 PM
The frustrating thing about Fearsome or Terrifying is that it's binary.  It either works or it doesn't.  If you have a few scary units out and your opponent rolls well and never fails a fear check, you've wasted points for absolutely zero benefit.  Conversely, if you have a bunch of scary guys in play (easy to do with Undead, Dark Elves, and M&M) and your opponent is unfortunate in their fear checks, they could be hosed.  Brook's proposition is that we mellow out the steep penalty for failing the check and make it work every time.  The effected units still only suffer the penalty when charged by scary units as the rule is currently written.  The initial idea was that the penalty would be (-1) -0/0 and that's also a viable option.  Yes, that's the old Shaken rule liberated from the Fearsome rule.  But the point is that Fearsome is either awesome or useless and that can be frustrating from both sides of the table.
I think it is worth noting that against a unit armed with spears, the defensive bonus Brook is proposing or a reduction in the spear bonus is virtually the same. Also my assumption was that "(I know some units have fearsome/terrifying that are not large, and they would not figure in to this change)." means that Dark Elves would not figure into the picture with the possible exception of Drake Riders. So I am having a bit of trouble understanding how that doesn't directly contradict the idea of "mellow out steep penalty for failing the check" for Dark Elves. I am not trying to be difficult here, but it seems to me that the issue with large units as stated initially in this thread is more directly addressed by the type of proposal I am putting forth (OK, I am not really putting that forward but it seemed appropriate given that M&M and Undead are at the bottom of most people's tier list (http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,10362.0.html) and the reasons given for those rankings) and it also seems as if what you are talking about here is really a different issue.

As someone who plays M&M a lot, I can tell you that from my perspective that if you took the occasional frustration I feel because fear is binary and multiplied it by 100, it would still be less than the frustration of not being able to use all the army builds I wish were viable but can't rationalize because of spear bonuses etc. I also play Dark Elves a fair amount of the time, and have had many games where I did not get any fear bonuses at all, but given how little the Dark Elves need help in that regard my sympathy for somebody in that position still approaches zero.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on February 01, 2016, 01:51:43 AM
How about another suggestion for the fearsome ability.  Every time I think of the fearsome ability I think of the scene in Lord of the Rings, Return of the King when the soldiers of Gondor are about to fight the trolls that have just entered the city.  Gandalf says, "Whatever comes through those doors you will stand your ground!!"  What happens is that the first lines of soldiers get swept away with the huge swings of the Trolls, then things normalize a bit after the initial charge.  This to me is an example of what would happen if a unit PASSES it's fearsome check.  Worse things should occur if you don't. 

What about this?  How about any unit attacking/charging unit gets an automatic (-1) +0/+0 if up against a large/fearsome unit.  Then they roll the fear check.  If they fail, they lose an additional (-1) +0/+0, essentially loosing their charge bonus of +2 dice. 

 
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: BubblePig on February 01, 2016, 05:59:28 AM
Well, here again I feel as if I am just plain misunderstanding some fundamental part of what you are talking about. It seems to me that "the first lines of soldiers get swept away with the huge swings of the Trolls" has everything to do with Trolls being large and nothing to do with Trolls being fearsome. So on those terms I disagree that thematically there is a link to the fearsome keyword at all. Also, my initial assumption going in when somebody suggests buffing a unit (or group of units) is that somehow that somebody thinks that is a game balance issue. But the more I read what you have to say, Brook, the more it starts to seem like an issue of the units don't feel right in terms of what they are supposed to represent. So I am still wondering if Marcus is talking about a gameplay issue that has to do with Fearsome and you are talking about a thematic issue that has to do with Large? To me those are not only two distinct issues, but also the issues are distinct in two very important ways.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Zelc on February 01, 2016, 10:46:56 AM
Actually, if it's just about Fear, I'd be much more open to this type of houserule. Fear is really binary for no great reason, and doesn't really change the way people play those units or against those units. A(-1)-0/-0, roll courage to prevent another A(-1)-0/-0 sounds reasonable to me.

And yea, I'd give it to the Dark Elves as well.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on February 01, 2016, 12:16:58 PM
To me it was mostly about Fear.  I'm thinking this really should have been titled "Fearsome tweak" or something like that.  It wasn't like we where trying to specifically buff up Large units.  It stemmed from a couple of games we played Friday (reports forthcoming later this week) where we both looked at each other and said "You know, this whole Fearsome thing is sort of silly..."
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on February 01, 2016, 02:18:02 PM
To me, the Large/Fearsome key words, as far as I'm concerned should be one and the same.  The fact that they are large makes them fearsome in my book.

I think giving line units fearsome, that aren't large, was a mistake.  (i.e. Dark Elves)  The faction is good enough on it's own and didn't need it.  Also, way back when Shaken was still in effect, the ability was just ridiculous.  I wouldn't even want Large units to get that much of a bonus whether it happened automatically or only once in a while.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: BubblePig on February 01, 2016, 06:15:22 PM
Well, I can see how the people designing Undead just sort of naturally wanted to link Fearsome with courage. The automatic thing bothers me though. Personally I think it would be better from a thematic perspective if the penalty were smaller but it wasn't stepped as two levels, for example just spitballing but say you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus period and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines. It seems silly to me that Triarii for example lose hard no matter what under the latest proposal, but linking it to the charge bonus dice corrects for that automatically. The point being that an ordinary 12 courage you should fail fearsome at least 50ish or even 60ish percent of the time and terrifying significantly more of the time than that. I really feel strongly that there needs to be a significant bump for terrifying over fearsome, even more than there is now. It seems as if I have the same problem with terrifying that you guys have with fearsome, i.e. it just seems silly and almost flavorless.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: BubblePig on February 01, 2016, 06:25:27 PM
Also I don't feel there is a need to nerf units that never need to take a fear check.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Zelc on February 01, 2016, 06:45:12 PM
In the perfect world, Fear would be 4 Courage Checks, A(-1)-0/-0 for each failed one. Makes it more reliable. It might work on VASSAL, but that's too much dice rolling in real life :).

Even if A(-1)-0/-0 was automatic, we could just say that infinite Courage units are unaffected by it.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Kevin on February 01, 2016, 09:17:18 PM
Quote
In the perfect world, Fear would be 4 Courage Checks, A(-1)-0/-0 for each failed one. Makes it more reliable. It might work on VASSAL, but that's too much dice rolling in real life Smiley.

Yeah, but I still like it!  :)
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on February 15, 2016, 03:10:09 PM
I had suggested this to Chad quite a few years back.  What about if we gave all large units a -1/+1 to their defense against ranged shooting.  This would simulate both the ease in which they are hit but also their thick hide. 

On the topic of Fearsome for large units......why can't we make it have a little more frequency.  How about making people roll their fear checks at a -1 for fearsome and a -2 or -3 for Terryfying.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: BubblePig on February 15, 2016, 06:39:23 PM
Hmmm.... You mean something like this:

Well, I can see how the people designing Undead just sort of naturally wanted to link Fearsome with courage. The automatic thing bothers me though. Personally I think it would be better from a thematic perspective if the penalty were smaller but it wasn't stepped as two levels, for example just spitballing but say you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus period and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines. It seems silly to me that Triarii for example lose hard no matter what under the latest proposal, but linking it to the charge bonus dice corrects for that automatically. The point being that an ordinary 12 courage you should fail fearsome at least 50ish or even 60ish percent of the time and terrifying significantly more of the time than that. I really feel strongly that there needs to be a significant bump for terrifying over fearsome, even more than there is now. It seems as if I have the same problem with terrifying that you guys have with fearsome, i.e. it just seems silly and almost flavorless.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on February 16, 2016, 09:43:13 AM
Yup. Something along those lines.  But not for Dark Elsf units save Lord of Dusk.  ;D
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Dave-SWA on February 22, 2016, 06:14:37 PM
Late to the discussion.  My suggestions:

1.  Any unit engaging with a Fearsome/Terrifying unit needs to make a fear check. 

Current rule 7.7 says "if a unit is charged by a fearsome or terrifying unit this turn, it must make a fear check...".

If a unit is fearsome/terrifying, most units will hesitate to fight it.  Even if you are hitting it in the flank/rear.  Even if the fearsome unit is on Hold. 
I have long disagreed with the wording that says the fear check kicks in only if you are charged by the fearsome unit.

Please note the ambiguity of the last paragraph of rule 7.7:
"If a unit that is neither fearsome nor terrifying becomes engaged with a terrifying unit, it makes its fear check at a -2 penalty."

If that is not enough...


2.  The penalty for a failed fear check is not only (-1) / -1 / -1 for that turn, but also -1 on all courage checks that turn.

Is this not totally logical?  If you are afraid, why doesn't that affect morale checks too?


TotalCon 2016 session reports coming soon.

-DC
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: elgin_j on February 22, 2016, 06:47:19 PM
I've always wondered about the bonuses for shooting large targets.  Is a formed body of soldiers not a larger and more easily hit target than a small group of trolls et al..?
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on April 18, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
I'm wondering if the discount that large units get could be made to be less of a discount.  Then that way they could get something that allows them to have more of an advantage in a fight under certain circumstances.  They really don't get anything for being large.  Perhaps we could say that any ones rolled on the to damage roll do an extra point of damage or spur on another fear check, or whatever.  I think it would make the game more fun.

There, it started a new(old) conversation.

 ;D

This discussion board has been a ghost town lately.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Kevin on April 18, 2016, 06:48:59 PM
FWIW, my view isn't that Large units are overpriced, but that faster speeds were all a bit overpriced, and that most Large units are MC 5".  Zombie Trolls, who are large and MC 3.5", are an absolutely magnificent unit for their cost.

And yes, it's that long quiet after the big tournament.  Longer this year, but I expect to be playing a game with Blakely before the end of the month, and one with Jaime in early May.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 19, 2016, 10:49:13 AM
I'm wondering if the discount that large units get could be made to be less of a discount. 

Wouldn't that make them more expensive?

FWIW, my view isn't that Large units are overpriced, but that faster speeds were all a bit overpriced, and that most Large units are MC 5".  Zombie Trolls, who are large and MC 3.5", are an absolutely magnificent unit for their cost.

The proper price of speed in this game is hard to pin down because a mix of terrain, scenario, and special conditions can very the value of it so much.  There will be games where you want to put a fast moving Large unit smack dab in the center of your line and you won't get much value out of their speed at all.  There will be other games with terrain where you sure are happy you have that speed because it made more sense to put the big guy out on the edge or in a place where it can claim the top of a hill quickly.  If every game was played on the exact same map with the exact same conditions it would be easy to acurately assess the value of MC 5+ but that's not the case.  I'm not really sure what can be done.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on April 19, 2016, 10:13:27 PM
Quote
Wouldn't that make them more expensive?
Quote


What I mean is that give them less of a discount for being large and a little boost offensively and call it a wash.  I just think being large should give you some kind of offensive advantage, like hitting harder or something to that effect.  Being easier to hit with archery, and having a fearsome ability that usually doesn't benefit them just isn't right in my opinion.

Perhaps units with the large fearsome keywords force their opponent to roll fear checks after every turn in which they were damaged.   

Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 20, 2016, 09:58:10 AM
Here's something super wacky.  Units engaged with Fearsome/Terrifying units have to roll a Fear/Terror check when they succeed a route check from damage.  In other words, if a unit of Trolls forces a yellow route check on a unit of Swordsmen and the Swordsmen pass, they must now pass a fear check for that turn as well.  

Edit: I just realized that the combat for that turn would already be over and a failed Fear check would be meaningless.  The Fear check would have to occur on the following M&C phase and that could get clunky because you'd have to remember it for the next turn.  I suck.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on April 20, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
That's an idea also, but that doesn't help them chop through chump stacks any quicker.   

I just thought of this, what about if when a large unit deals damage the amount of damage it deals is subtracted from a units courage if it causes a rout check?


Example:

A unit of Orc Trolls is up against a unit of Ravenwood Swordsmen.  The Swordsmen already has 2 green boxes marked off from the charge turn.  Then on the subsequent turn the Trolls deal 2 damage and cause a rout check.  The rout check is made at a -2.

Something like that...
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 20, 2016, 01:32:29 PM
Until a T-Rex barrels into a unit of Hawk Greatswordsmen and they have to roll a courage check at a -5.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on April 20, 2016, 03:07:37 PM
That's what they get for not getting the hell out of the way!!!!! :)    I'm just throwing stuff out there, maybe it will work, maybe it won't. 

How about a -1 to the courage if any damage that is taken that causes a rout check. 
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Kevin on April 20, 2016, 03:32:01 PM
Quote
Here's something super wacky.  Units engaged with Fearsome/Terrifying units have to roll a Fear/Terror check when they succeed a route check from damage.  In other words, if a unit of Trolls forces a yellow route check on a unit of Swordsmen and the Swordsmen pass, they must now pass a fear check for that turn as well. 

Edit: I just realized that the combat for that turn would already be over and a failed Fear check would be meaningless.  The Fear check would have to occur on the following M&C phase and that could get clunky because you'd have to remember it for the next turn.  I suck.

Fwiw, I like the idea.  It might overpower Fearsome slightly, but that's always fixable by making the penalty (-0) -1/-1 instead of (-1) -1/-1. 
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 21, 2016, 09:07:13 AM
That's what they get for not getting the hell out of the way!!!!! :)   
Just think about what you just said there.  Greatswordsmen.  Being able to get out of the way of anything  :P

How about a -1 to the courage if any damage that is taken that causes a rout check. 
I think this is much better
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on April 21, 2016, 09:59:18 AM
Here's something super wacky.  Units engaged with Fearsome/Terrifying units have to roll a Fear/Terror check when they succeed a route check from damage.  In other words, if a unit of Trolls forces a yellow route check on a unit of Swordsmen and the Swordsmen pass, they must now pass a fear check for that turn as well.  

Edit: I just realized that the combat for that turn would already be over and a failed Fear check would be meaningless.  The Fear check would have to occur on the following M&C phase and that could get clunky because you'd have to remember it for the next turn.  I suck.

I love this idea in concept (as you said, the issue of the following turn would have to be worked out).  I'd be all for it were it not for one faction:  Dark Elves.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 21, 2016, 11:10:33 AM
Yup, I was thinking the exact same thing.  It would only apply to units that had both the Large/Colossal and Fearsome/Terrifying keywords.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on April 21, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
I remember we talked about this a long time ago, and Niko made a very compelling argument that when you start having X+Y = Z special rules it's rather confusing/frustrating for new players.  I tend to agree, honestly.

It'd almost be simpler to errata away Fearsome on DEs.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on April 21, 2016, 12:42:53 PM
I had an idea for the dark elves at the tournament that I ran at DexCon.  Just give them bonuses on their fear checks and take away fearsome.  This way you could keep their prices the same.   I think what the dark elves went through as a race would make them more brave than scary.  I never like the fact that they were fearsome.  I would never run away from a hot female elf with a skimpy outfit, big jugs, phat ass and a whip.  No matter how bad she was beating me up.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: NegativeZer0 on April 26, 2016, 12:10:16 PM
I had an idea for the dark elves at the tournament that I ran at DexCon.  Just give them bonuses on their fear checks and take away fearsome.  This way you could keep their prices the same.   I think what the dark elves went through as a race would make them more brave than scary.

Except this is a horrendously BAD idea.  
I'm sorry, I know I'm being really blunt and possibly even rude but you want to replace an over costed ability with a worse version of that ability and not change points cost at all.

Fear is already over priced.  
Having flat out immunity to fear is WAY less useful and WAY WAY more situational than fear (and thus worth even less points)
Finally having yet another army that is immune to fear would make the cost paid by the rest of the units with fear even more useless and overpriced than it already is.


Full disclosure: I have no intention of playing DE at DexCon, I don't like playing the same faction 2 cons in a row.

You have some crusade against DE when they aren't even the best army in the game.  They are roughly on the same level as Rome, Lizardmen and Umenzi.  
Instead of nerfing DE we should be looking at ways to bring some of the weaker factions up in power.

I never like the fact that they were fearsome.  I would never run away from a hot female elf with a skimpy outfit, big jugs, phat ass and a whip.  No matter how bad she was beating me up.

Really you wouldn't be afraid of an army that is known for enslaving then sadistically and brutally torchering the survivors after a battle?
And even if you weren't afraid of this there are several sources for Dark elf lore that gives precedence that the fear the DE cause is only partially due to their reputation and partially magically/psychically enduced.  Since the DE in our game are the most magically inclined army it makes sense that DE fear could be magically enduced thus explaining why even basic units cause fear.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 26, 2016, 01:21:44 PM
Really you wouldn't be afraid of an army that is known for enslaving then sadistically and brutally torturing the survivors after the battle?
And even if you weren't afraid of this there are several sources for Dark elf lore that gives precedence that the fear the DE cause is only partially due to their reputation and partially magically/psychically enduced.  Since they in our game DE are the most magical army it makes sense that DE fear could be magically enduced.

This isn't really concerning Large units nor is it concerning Dark Elven balance.  More just for the sake of discussion.  We've had discussions about how some units are Fearsome and others aren't.  Where do yuo draw the line and why would certain units find others to be fearsome?  I get the thing about the Dark Elves' reputation proceeding them and even a hint of magic coming into play.  But I still find it rediculous that a Bear Pack would give 2 hoots about any of that upon engagement.  Same with Tyrants.  Seriously, think about what Tyrants are.  300+ pound, 7 foot tall weapon weilding monstrousities.  And yeah, they know what happens to them if captured.  The same way Dark Elves know that if they are captured the Tyrants could very well eat them.  And then you have units like Umenzi Chosen (gifted by the Gods) or Celestial Guard (hundreds, perhaps thousands of years old and the best of the best) that I'd also have a hard time believing that a unit of Blades is going to bother them in the least bit.

Just thinking out loud here.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Kevin on April 26, 2016, 02:31:07 PM
I recall Niko (creator of the Dark Elves) once saying that Dark Elf Fearsome is due to their magic aura.  Since magic is whatever you want it to be, that'd work on bears.  Maybe to Bears Highblood Dark Elves smell like a forest fire?

Quote
I'm sorry, I know I'm being really blunt and possibly even rude but you want to replace an over costed ability with a worse version of that ability and not change points cost at all.

Yeah, this too.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on April 26, 2016, 02:53:48 PM
What Kevin said.

I think there's ample evidence that the Dark Elves are the masters of enchantment and illusion.  The Lashmistresses, for example.

From a story POV, it makes perfect sense that a Tyrant would be scared of a Lord of Dusk.  The Lords are radiating an aura of primal terror, something that all living beings possess right next to the urge to eat and procreate.

From a rules design perspective...boy did it paint us into a corner.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on April 26, 2016, 11:57:01 PM
Fear is already over priced.  

You know, this just might be the case.  Having looked at the surcharge, I'm hard pressed to disagree.  I mean if you took nothing but an army of 6 Highbloods and a Dusklance, you'd spend like 80pts on the ability.  That's enough to upgrade 2 of those Highbloods to Duskblades.  Is having 2-3 units fail a fear check once a game worth having Pow 6 all game on 2 units?  I tend to think not.

What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 28, 2016, 09:56:08 AM
Fear is already over priced. 

You know, this just might be the case.  Having looked at the surcharge, I'm hard pressed to disagree.  I mean if you took nothing but an army of 6 Highbloods and a Dusklance, you'd spend like 80pts on the ability.  That's enough to upgrade 2 of those Highbloods to Duskblades.  Is having 2-3 units fail a fear check once a game worth having Pow 6 all game on 2 units?  I tend to think not.

What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.
That's one option though I'm not a fan of having to roll for the check every turn.  We'd be forgetting that all the time.  Here's a run down of proposed options for Fearsome/Terrifying I've seen so far in this thread:

1 (from me) - Fear always works when a unit is final rushed by a Fearsome guy and the penalty is (-1) -0/0.  I'd add that Terrifying would be (-2) -0/0.

2 (from Brook) - any unit attacking/charging unit gets an automatic (-1) +0/+0 if up against a large/fearsome unit.  Then they roll the fear check.  If they fail, they lose an additional (-1) +0/+0, essentially loosing their charge bonus of +2 dice.

3 (from Ron) - you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines.

4 (from Dave) - Any unit engaging with a Fearsome/Terrifying unit needs to make a fear check.  Plus The penalty for a failed fear check is not only (-1) / -1 / -1 for that turn, but also -1 on all courage checks that turn.

5 (from Brook) - Fears stays as is.  In addition, a -1 to the courage if any damage that causes a rout check is inflicted by a Fearsome unit.  (My addition to this) -2 if the damage comes from a Terrifying unit.

6 (from Corey) - What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on April 28, 2016, 10:23:19 AM
That's one option though I'm not a fan of having to roll for the check every turn.  We'd be forgetting that all the time. 

Do you forget to make your attack rolls every turn?

I think that part of why people forget about Fearsome is that it's only something that happens on the charge turn.  If it was something that was rolled every turn, people would get more in the habit of doing it and would likely remember.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gncamama on April 29, 2016, 02:14:38 PM
I'd like to throw out this idea:

Allow Large/Colossal units to reform while engaged...
- reasoning: I'm assuming units can't reform after engagement due to the difficulty of having a large formation reorder itself while also being in combat.  Large/Colossal units are normally single units or pairs (with some small groups like Ogres) and so don't rely on staying in formations as much or find changing their positions easier.
- it would allow Large/Colossal units to react appropriately to flanking/pinching attacks and effectively make them more durable
- it won't buff the Dark Elves (except for Drake Riders) since it is not fear-based
- it would feel thematic and different from non-large/colossal units than a straight up combat bonus
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on April 29, 2016, 02:46:20 PM
I'd like to throw out this idea:

Allow Large/Colossal units to reform while engaged...
- reasoning: I'm assuming units can't reform after engagement due to the difficulty of having a large formation reorder itself while also being in combat.  Large/Colossal units are normally single units or pairs (with some small groups like Ogres) and so don't rely on staying in formations as much or find changing their positions easier.
- it would allow Large/Colossal units to react appropriately to flanking/pinching attacks and effectively make them more durable
- it won't buff the Dark Elves (except for Drake Riders) since it is not fear-based
- it would feel thematic and different from non-large/colossal units than a straight up combat bonus

This is a good idea and this has been brought up before.  I was actually a champion of this sort of thing.  I always thought it was silly that a Hill Giant or something along those lines would be stuck in place and unable to turn to face a bucnh of Swarmlings that had attacked it on the flank.  I still feel that way.  But as I understand it, the game designers really wanted to reward players for out-maneuvering their opponents.  Most other players liked that line of reasoning so the proposal died.

My proposal was something like this:
At the begining of your Movement and Command phase you may spend a command action to rotate an engaged unit 90 degrees that is 1) at least 1 size class larger than it's opponent and 2) only engaged with a single unit (i.e. this can't happen in a pinch).  The penalty for being flanked still applies for that turn but goes away afterwards. 
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Karasu on May 01, 2016, 04:03:07 AM
Fear is already over priced. 

You know, this just might be the case.  Having looked at the surcharge, I'm hard pressed to disagree.  I mean if you took nothing but an army of 6 Highbloods and a Dusklance, you'd spend like 80pts on the ability.  That's enough to upgrade 2 of those Highbloods to Duskblades.  Is having 2-3 units fail a fear check once a game worth having Pow 6 all game on 2 units?  I tend to think not.

What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.
That's one option though I'm not a fan of having to roll for the check every turn.  We'd be forgetting that all the time.  Here's a run down of proposed options for Fearsome/Terrifying I've seen so far in this thread:

1 (from me) - Fear always works when a unit is final rushed by a Fearsome guy and the penalty is (-1) -0/0.  I'd add that Terrifying would be (-2) -0/0.

2 (from Brook) - any unit attacking/charging unit gets an automatic (-1) +0/+0 if up against a large/fearsome unit.  Then they roll the fear check.  If they fail, they lose an additional (-1) +0/+0, essentially loosing their charge bonus of +2 dice.

3 (from Ron) - you lose a number of attack dice equal to charge bonus and the morale check were made at -2 for fearsome and -4 for terrifying or something along those lines.

4 (from Dave) - Any unit engaging with a Fearsome/Terrifying unit needs to make a fear check.  Plus The penalty for a failed fear check is not only (-1) / -1 / -1 for that turn, but also -1 on all courage checks that turn.

5 (from Brook) - Fears stays as is.  In addition, a -1 to the courage if any damage that causes a rout check is inflicted by a Fearsome unit.  (My addition to this) -2 if the damage comes from a Terrifying unit.

6 (from Corey) - What if Fearsome was something you take every turn when engaged on the front by a Fearsome unit? But failing it was less of a penalty, like (-2)-0/-0 if you fail.

Since we appear to be discussing Fear, can I throw another one out there on a KISS basis?
Any unit making a close combat attack against a Fearsome unit takes a penalty of (-1) 0/0
Terrifying give (-2) instead.

Is having 1 less die on every attack against you as good as having two units at Pow 6?
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on May 02, 2016, 11:16:51 AM
Since we appear to be discussing Fear, can I throw another one out there on a KISS basis?
Any unit making a close combat attack against a Fearsome unit takes a penalty of (-1) 0/0
Terrifying give (-2) instead.

Is having 1 less die on every attack against you as good as having two units at Pow 6?

I'm really sad that I didn't think of this approach first.  I have the formula and could get some baseline numbers.

A generic unit (i.e. O:(5)5/5, D:2/2, Mv 3.5", Cge 12, 4G/3Y/3R) is 192 pts.  If you lowered its number of attacks to 4 dice (to represent the -1 die penalty you proposed), then they would be 167pts or a 25pt reduction.  That's a 13% decrease, which is way better than the 4% that Fearsome gets charged.  In that hypothetical, if you had 7 Fearsome DE units, you'd get an average return of 175pts, which is more than double the effect you'd get for the 80pts you spend.

So while the KISS idea is a bit too good, the methodology is a good one.  And thanks for putting us on that track!

If Fearsome is worth 4%, then we want something that has an approximate value of 8pts on a 192pt unit.  If 1 die is worth 25pts, but we make it so that you have to take a Cge check every turn then Fearsome only works about 1/4 of the time (because the enemy would pass its Fear check on a Cge 12 about 3/4 of time).  25 * 1/4 = ~6pts

Still a little off.  But if you make Fearsome checks a -1 Cge, then the normal unit is failing 1/3 of the time.  25 * 1/3 = 8pts.  Now we're on the money.

So from a strictly math POV, that's work.  Of course from a KISS perspective, it might be a little hard to remember:  every turn, at a -1 Cge for not that great a payout in terms of -1 die.

Another option is to make it an 'every turn' check (at no penalty) but have it be a (-0)-1/-0 for the enemy.  For a normal unit, going from Skill 5 to Skill 4 is a 36pt decrease.  Again assuming the enemy passes it 3/4 of the time, that means:  36 * 1/4 = 9 pts.

Pretty dang close to the 8pts that Fearsome would cost on a normal unit.  And who knows, maybe this would work because a lot of Fearsome units are D:1/3, which makes playing things like Parry a waste of time.  Now when the other guy fails the fear check, it might expand the options when it comes to card play.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on May 17, 2018, 11:23:12 AM
What about having any unit with the large keyword do two damage with any natural 1's rolled on the "to damage roll".  This would only be against smaller units.  That could be an ability strictly for Large units.  Fearsome/Terrifying could be a totally separate thing.  Just a thought because there are units that are just Fearsome and not large.  (i.e. Dark Elves).  Hmmm, come to think of it, are there any units that are Large without fearsome?  I'm thinking no, of the top of my head.  So they would get both abilities, benefits of large AND fearsome. Whatever they end up being.

Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on May 17, 2018, 01:25:13 PM
I'd certainly limit it to an additional point of damage for the attack if any 1's are rolled.  Otherwise a hot roll could really swing the game.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Kevin on May 17, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
Quote
What about having any unit with the large keyword do two damage with any natural 1's rolled on the "to damage roll".  This would only be against smaller units.

That's a highly-variable ability with essentially the same damage increase as +1 power. 

I still maintain that Large is fine, the issue is that higher speed was priced a bit too high.  Zombie Trolls (Large MC 3.5") are fantastic; Wolfkin (non-Large MC 5") are kind of weak.  Similarly, cavalry were overpriced and needed that free Impact Hit because MC 6" was so damn expensive.  MC 7" gets all that and then the free "fast moving target" help vs. ranged.

The other time Large can suck is when you're the Undead or (to a lesser extent) Monsters & Mercs and EVERY decent unit in your army is vulnerable to spears.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on May 17, 2018, 03:07:29 PM
I'd certainly limit it to an additional point of damage for the attack if any 1's are rolled.  Otherwise a hot roll could really swing the game.

Yeah sure,  limit it to only allowing it to occur once. 
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: gornhorror on May 17, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
I'm just throwing stuff out there and seeing if it sticks. 

What if the spear bonus only was +1/+1.  That would still be a good boost but help out large units at the same time. 

+1/+1 would also tone down some of the historical armies as well, since they are loaded with spears, which in turn will help cavalry AND large....

Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on May 18, 2018, 12:36:26 PM
I still maintain that Large is fine, the issue is that higher speed was priced a bit too high.  Zombie Trolls (Large MC 3.5") are fantastic; Wolfkin (non-Large MC 5") are kind of weak. 

I don't think it's the speed that makes those units good or weak.  In fact, MC 5" is the best return on investment speed improvement in the formula.  Every MC boost (or downgrade) is a flat +.25 modifier.  Going from 3.5" to 5" is a 1.25 modifier.  5" to 6" is a 1.5 modifier, and so on.  But going from 3.5" to 5" is +1.5" of move.  You get a 42% boost in speed for a 25% increase in that modifier.  Going from 5" to 6" is a 20% boost for 20%cost increase.  From 6" to 7" is a 17% boost in speed for a 17% increase in cost.


Quote
Similarly, cavalry were overpriced and needed that free Impact Hit because MC 6" was so damn expensive. 

Having been around when the impact hit was added, I can tell you first hand that wasn't the reason.


Quote
MC 7" gets all that and then the free "fast moving target" help vs. ranged.

Agreed that shouldn't be free.  And in fact, probably shouldn't exist at all.


What if the spear bonus only was +1/+1.  That would still be a good boost but help out large units at the same time. 

You should talk to Scott.  He's wanted to tweak the Pow bonus for Spears for a long time.  I'm not opposed to it but it's going to be 1) a huge errata, 2) need some serious playtesting by not me, and 3) need to be done soon.  The next edition of the rules are coming out soon, and so if you want this to be a thing, then you don't have oceans of time.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: RushAss on May 21, 2018, 02:53:59 PM
You should talk to Scott.  He's wanted to tweak the Pow bonus for Spears for a long time.  I'm not opposed to it but it's going to be 1) a huge errata, 2) need some serious playtesting by not me, and 3) need to be done soon.  The next edition of the rules are coming out soon, and so if you want this to be a thing, then you don't have oceans of time.

We may not require any serious urgency here.  If this is something we want to do, we could test it over time and await the next rules update.  So what if it takes a year or two?  While I agree that the spear bonus could be toned down, it's not drastically breaking games IMO.  We'd have plenty of time to test it.  We have enough crap to scramble over for the Hawk release, yes?
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: Hannibal on May 21, 2018, 03:17:30 PM
You should talk to Scott.  He's wanted to tweak the Pow bonus for Spears for a long time.  I'm not opposed to it but it's going to be 1) a huge errata, 2) need some serious playtesting by not me, and 3) need to be done soon.  The next edition of the rules are coming out soon, and so if you want this to be a thing, then you don't have oceans of time.

We may not require any serious urgency here.  If this is something we want to do, we could test it over time and await the next rules update.  So what if it takes a year or two?  While I agree that the spear bonus could be toned down, it's not drastically breaking games IMO.  We'd have plenty of time to test it.  We have enough crap to scramble over for the Hawk release, yes?

If we're going to make a major errata to every single faction (31 total units over 15 factions), then I'd want to do it now.  I think we have a lot of leeway to make major changes & erratas with our first release, because the game is under 'new management.' IMO people will give us the cover to modernize the rules, and use erratas to cover it.  But if we release Hawkshold and then immediately errata 3 of the units, I think that looks bad.
Title: Re: Large Unit Buff
Post by: opimius on May 21, 2018, 08:07:57 PM
Fearsome and spears both brought up as new topics in the rules team forum.