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Battleground: Fantasy and Historical Warfare => Faction Design and Development => Topic started by: RushAss on March 27, 2015, 11:11:05 AM

Title: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on March 27, 2015, 11:11:05 AM
This is a rehash of a faction I posted a few years back.  I always thought that Battleground could use a Viking faction, but others here had mentioned to me that a historical Viking faction would be tough to pull off because there simply wasn't enough variation in the units historically.  So why not create a fantasy Viking faction instead?  Problem solved!

UPDATED 7/31/2015

Faction Ability
Berserk:   You may spend a command action to mark the Berserk box on one of your units.  During the Movement and Command phase you may erase that mark to give your unit O: (+2) +0/+0 and D: -1/+0 for the turn.  Counts as a command card if the box is erased on a charge turn.

Faction Ability: Fjordborn.  Midgard units receive a -1 MC movement penalty instead of the standard -2 MC penalty when moving through shallow water, sand, and marshes.

Units

Midgard Warband (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
204 Points

Fyrd Spearmen (Core) (6) 4/5 2/2 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
171 points

Huscarls (Core) (5) 5/6 1/3 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/3/3 (Berserk, Fjordborn)
245 points

Vikings (Core) (5) 5/5 2*/1 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
* D: +1/+0 vs. ranged attacks
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
225 points

Baendr Archers (Core) (4) 5/5 1/1 R-10.5" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Fjordborn, no ability box)
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
158 points

Dishonored (Standard) (5) 4/5 2/1 R- C-10* M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Fjordborn, no ability box),
No command cards can be played on this unit, +3 courage if in the yellow or red
120 points

Shield Maidens (Standard) (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Berserk, Fjordborn)
277 Points

Einherjar (Standard) (7) 5/5 1/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/5 (Berserk, Fjordborn, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
243 points

War Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2 (Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive, no ability box)
O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
1 additional impact hit when charging (2 total)
377 points

Sons of Odin (Elite) (6) 6/6 2/3 R-7* C-14 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/4 (Berserk, Fjordborn, 2 Spell boxes, see Spell list)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
454Points
Spells:
1 – Blót – Mark a spell box make a line of sight ranged attack at (4) 6/6 R-7"
2 – Portents – Your opponent must deploy 2 units before normal deployment occurs.  Mark a spell box.
3 – Iron Will – Mark a Spell box to mark a Midgard unit.  Erase the mark when that unit rolls for a pre-combat courage check.  That unit passes the check. 

Valkyries (Elite) (6) 6/5 2*/2 R- C- M-6" (10.5” when airborne)
Hit boxes 3/2/1 (Flying, Cavalry, no ability box)
O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
371 points

Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1/4 R-* C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4 (Large, Fearsome, Impulsive, no ability box)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
Aura of Frost:  On Midgard player’s turn Frost Giant makes a (2) 7/7 ranged attack on all enemy units that are engaged with it.
565 points

Command Cards

Shield Wall (1)Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Engaged enemy attacks against your units get O: (-1) -0/-0 this turn.  Your Units get D: +1/+0.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn

Valhalla Becons (1)  Play during your Movement & Command phase.  You gain 2 Command Actions which can only be used to mark Berserk boxes or to change the Standing Order to Close (without Modifiers or Objectives).

Glory in Death (2)  Play when one of your units fails a courage check.  You may lower the result of the roll by 3.

Beyond Pain (2)  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.  Your unit can erase its Berserk box to get an additional D:+0/+1 this attack.

The Blood Boils (2) Play during an attack, before you roll to hit.  When rolling to-hit and to-wound, every time you roll a 1, roll an additional die (further 1s have no effect).  The to-hit roll and the to-wound may not be re rolled. 

Beyond Mercy (2) Play during an attack, before you roll to hit.  You get O: (+1)+0/+1 this attack.  If the unit you are attacking is not in the Green, you get an additional O: (+1)+0/+0.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on March 27, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
Design Notes

Many of the newer factions have a lot of funkiness going on in their design.  Monsters & Mercs introduced flying units.  Historical factions have Skirmishers and Pila rules.  Dark Elves have got all kinds of oddball stuff going on.  Wuxing has it's construct mechanic.  These are good things for the game IMO, but I wanted to take more of a purist approach with this faction and create something straight up and simple.  You may notice that a few of these units are based upon Scandinavian fighting units that actually existed.  Yearlings and Shield Maidens would have actually been mixed in with the Warriors but I wanted to separate them out into their own units.  The Huscarls are totally based on the Danish Huscarls that eventually would settle in Southern England and what would become Normandy in France.

I have a few hurdles here and chief among them is that no evidence exists that Vikings ever used cavalry in combat en mass.  While this is a fantasy faction, putting a unit of Vikings on horseback just feels downright goofy.  I have 4(!) workarounds here.  It's very possible that one of these units won't make the final cut.  

1 - is the Viking Raiders which are a lightly armored, fast moving foot unit not unlike High Elven Rangers.  Since Vikings are raiders by nature I figured a unit like this wouldn't be much of a stretch.  

2 - The second workaround was the Polar Bear Cavalry.  I originally wanted a straight up unit like the Ravenwood Bear Packs, but the Polar Bears came out almost identical to them.  So why not mount guys on them and make them a combo cavalry-monster unit?  This is even more far fetched than Vikings as standard cavalry (not to mention that Polar Bears didn't exist in Viking lands), but it seems to fit the flavor in a strange sense.

3 - The Arctic Wolves when envisioned as a stronger version of the Ravenwood Wolf Pack.  I'm not sure if this is a good fit for the faction and may be a bit too much of a rip off from Ravenwood.  Still, it's a reasonably cheap flanking unit.  

4 - The Valkyries.  This unit is probably going to be the biggest headache when it comes to play testing.  I'm sure I close flavor-wise, but an Impulsive flying cavalry unit may be a self defeating unit.  Still, I really wanted to work Valkyries into the faction somehow.

On being Impulsive Vikings not only enjoyed battle, they actually believed that they could become a part of the highest form of afterlife (Valhalla) if they died in battle.  I reflected this eagerness by making them impulsive.  That doesn't mean they where stupid, it just means that they REALLY wanted to get in there and start swinging.  This can be an army-wide liability to players if they are not careful with their deployment and initial standing orders.

On Wave Dasher Viking Warriors spent a good amount of time running from their longboats to shore and I wanted to reflect that experience with this ability. The non-Viking foot units (Frost Giant, Polar Bears) are Large, so they still receive the same -1 MC penalty anyways.

At Kevin's first Championship tournament in 2010 I was chatting with Chad and asked him what he thought about a faction ability box that enhanced the faction specific command cards if the ability box was checked.  His response was "My goodness, how come I never thought of that?"  So with that in mind...

On Command cards and Call of Valhalla Call of Valhalla is basically the old power charge.  As an ability it's OK but somewhat limiting since it counts as playing a command card.  But I wanted the ability to make the faction-specific command cards better if it was checked.  This would encourage players to actually check ability box at times.  This would still be a bit of a drain on command actions because you needed to be able to draw cards to maximize the usefulness and versatility you gain when checking the box and that's where Odin's war Cry came in.  I'm wondering if I should A) increase the amount of boxes you are allowed to check up to 3, B) lower the cost of checking the box to 12 or even 10 or C) a combination of both.

On all of those Elite units  5 is a pretty high amount of Elite units, but most of them are high cost and it's rare that you'll want to deploy more than one or two of them anyways.  The standout here is the Shield Maidens.  I originally envisioned them as being core, but the existence of the Huscarls made it that a player could spam either a (5) 5/6 1/3 profile or a (5) 6/5 3/1 profile depending on their needs and that struck me as awfully cheesy as you could pretty much have whatever you want.  It should never be that easy, so I placed a limitation on how many Shield Maidens you could put out there.  And while it was common for Scandinavian women to fight along side of the men, they where nowhere near the majority and making them Elite reflects that.  

Any thoughts and comments are totally welcome!

Edit:  Corey and Brook helped out by being sounding boards intermittently over the last couple of years. 
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on March 27, 2015, 02:17:20 PM
I'll work backwards from your design notes to specific concepts about the faction.

Design Notes
Many of the newer factions have a lot of funkiness going on in their design.  Monsters & Mercs introduced flying units.  Historical factions have Skirmishers and Pila rules.  Dark Elves have got all kinds of oddball stuff going on.  Wuxing has it's construct mechanic.  These are good things for the game IMO, but I wanted to take more of a purist approach with this faction and create something straight up and simple.  You may notice that a few of these units are based upon Scandinavian fighting units that actually existed.  Yearlings and Shield Maidens would have actually been mixed in with the Warriors but I wanted to separate them out into their own units.  The Huscarls are totally based on the Danish Huscarls that eventually would settle in Southern England and what would become Normandy in France.

On the whole, I think this idea is awesome and should become a real faction.  I think you have just the right mix of fantasy & archetypal Viking themes.


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I have a few hurdles here and chief among them is that no evidence exists that Vikings ever used cavalry in combat en mass.  While this is a fantasy faction, putting a unit of Vikings on horseback just feels downright goofy.  I have 4(!) workarounds here.  It's very possible that one of these units won't make the final cut.  

1 - is the Viking Raiders which are a lightly armored, fast moving foot unit

2 - The second workaround was the Polar Bear Cavalry.  

3 - The Arctic Wolves when envisioned as a stronger version of the Ravenwood Wolf Pack.  

4 - The Valkyries.  

You also forgot the Frost Giant.  A T4, 6" mover that can have cards played on him is nothing to sneeze at!  I think you have a very decent set of fast moving units in there, frankly.  If there were units on the chopping block, I'd say the Arctic Wolves.  I'm also not a huge fan of Bear Cavalry, but I dislike them less than I used to.



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On being Impulsive  This can be an army-wide liability to players if they are not careful with their deployment and initial standing orders.

I like this ability.  The only thing that is worth mentioning is the spam effect.  You can work around 1-2 Impulsive units, often without even expending a CA.  But having most of your army Impulsive means that you're to have to expend CAs or end up charging earlier than you want to.  This is going to end up costing more than 3% because you're spamming the effect of Impulsive.


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At Kevin's first Championship tournament in 2010 I was chatting with Chad and asked him what he thought about a faction ability box that enhanced the faction specific command cards if the ability box was checked.  His response was "My goodness, how come I never thought of that?"  So with that in mind...

On Command cards and Call of Valhalla Call of Valhalla is basically the old power charge.  As an ability it's OK but somewhat limiting since it counts as playing a command card.  

Which makes it very different than the old Pow charge.  What makes charge bonuses so good is that you can pair them with command cards.  This is an incredibly weak checkbox ability.  You're basically always better off to draw a card.

And the context of the army makes this ability even weaker.  Between the Frost Giant, Sons of Odin, Bear cavalry, and (Core!) Huscarls, you have a fair bit of high Pow in the faction.  If the faction was like Greek Mercs (not a lot of high Pow, but Core units with lots of dice and an impact hit) an ability like this would be really good (which, btw, is explicitly why they didn't get it), but since Midgard already has a fair bit of high Pow, this army ability becomes even less good.

Furthermore, with all the Impulsive around there, I'm going to pretty CA constrained.  Best case, I figure I'll be down 1-2 CAs by the time our lines hit and potentially more as the game goes on if we end up playing flank protector games.  Given that reality, I'm not going to expend my CAs on a substandard ability, especially when I have a bunch of high Pow built into the faction.  I'm going to draw cards exclusively.


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But I wanted the ability to make the faction-specific command cards better if it was checked.  This would encourage players to actually check ability box at times.  This would still be a bit of a drain on command actions because you needed to be able to draw cards to maximize the usefulness and versatility you gain when checking the box and that's where Odin's war Cry came in.  I'm wondering if I should A) increase the amount of boxes you are allowed to check up to 3, B) lower the cost of checking the box to 12 or even 10 or C) a combination of both.

Pairing the ability with the command card is neat, and should be kept, but its nowhere near enough of a cookie to make me check the box.  If I have a few points left over, I might check the Odin's War Cry box, but frankly, going second nets me 2 extra CAs for command cards, so frankly probably not.


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On all of those Elite units  5 is a pretty high amount of Elite units, but most of them are high cost and it's rare that you'll want to deploy more than one or two of them anyways.  The standout here is the Shield Maidens.  I originally envisioned them as being core, but the existence of the Huscarls made it that a player could spam either a (5) 5/6 1/3 profile or a (5) 6/5 3/1 profile depending on their needs and that struck me as awfully cheesy as you could pretty much have whatever you want.  It should never be that easy, so I placed a limitation on how many Shield Maidens you could put out there.  And while it was common for Scandinavian women to fight along side of the men, they where nowhere near the majority and making them Elite reflects that.


Well, regardless of what is real, I think you're perfectly justified breaking them into smaller units like that.  I agree with the choice of not having shield maidens be Core.   I mean, you have 13 units, which is on par for what most factions do.  The standard is 12, but if you have a lot of Elite, then I think it's okay to give the faction an additional unit.  Plus, I think having lots of Elite adds more flavor to the faction, honestly.



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Fyrd Spearmen (Core) (6) 4/5 2/2 R- C-12 M-3.5"

One comment on naming:  "Fyrd" connoted the able warriors while "bondi" was more of the less good quality.  If you wanted to have names beyond the simple "Viking Swordsmen" you could call the swordsmen "Fyrd Swordsmen" and the spearmen "Bondi (or Bonded) Spearmen."  Or even just call the swordsmen "Fyrdmen" and the spearmen "Bondsmen" and let the art explain what they are.  Just a thought.


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Einherjar (6) 5/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/5 (Call of Valhalla, wave Dasher)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
252 points

I have to say I don't think this unit is very useful.  You pay 60pts more than Swordsmen for a unit that is not going to increase the damage output much.  And yet, it also lacks the ability to really tank that well.  Yeah it has 2 more boxes and is fearless, but it still is only D:2/2.  Plus its Standard, so it really is points you have to pull from your other 'good stuff.'  It just seems to be very much a Master-of-None unit that is less than the sum of its parts.


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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Call of Valhalla, wave Dasher, Impulsive)
226 Points

I'll be honest: the D:3/1 with the Shield Maidens bugs me from a thematic point of view.  First, it just bothers me that the woman unit is automatically the "frail" or "nimble combatant" unit in the faction.  Its a 1980s D&D concept that feels . . . lazy (for lack of a better word).  Second, the Yearlings, who haven't proven themselves) get sent off in chainmail, but not the womenfolk?  Third, vikings went with Shield Wives, not shield maidens.  A maiden is unproven.  A Wife, having felt the pain of childbirth and seen the ensuing gore, has proven herself capable.


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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

Wait, these guys don't get Impulsive?  Really?  Really?  


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Valkyries (Elite) (6) 6/5 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
360 points

I think your concerns here are well founded:  Impulsive is going to wreck their usefulness, because basically they're going to require a CA every turn to not land and plow into the nearest enemy.  I'd think this would be one of the units that isn't impulsive.  They're from Valhalla, they don't have the burning desire to earn their place there.  Plus, they're also supposed to take the honorable dead back with them, not exactly a job description that it'd hurt to have a level head.

Also, why not Pow 6?  I mean, if the Valkyries don't have magic swords...?


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Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1*/4 R- C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive
D +1/+0 while Charging
2 Frost Blast boxes.  Spend 1 command action to mark a frost blast box.  When a Frost Blast is erased during an attack, all enemy units engaged with Frost Giant get -1 attack die for that turn.  No more than 1 box can be erased per turn.  Does not count as playing a command card.
508 points

I don't have the formula in front of me, but this guy seems kind of cheap for a guy who has basically the same stats as the Hill Giant but you can play command cards on him for no penalty.


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Shield Wall (2)
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  
Each of your units that have the Call of Valhalla box checked get D: +1/+0 this attack.  All units attacking units effected by shield wall get O: (-1) -0/-0 this turn.  Those units may not erase their Call of Valhalla
box or be affected by command cards when defending this turn.

I think this is a weak card.  The Umenzi & Orc card that does the same thing doesn't come with a penalty on the units.  Ignore this.  I misread it.


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Pagan Spirit (2)
Play during a courage phase, before you take any courage checks.  
Up to 3 of your units gets +2 Courage this turn.  If any of these units has the Call of Valhalla box checked, it gets an additional +1 courage.

I think this card may be tricky, because it may end up feeling like Oathbound only worse (because you have a lot of D:2/2).  In general, only having 2 courage cards (and them not being rerolls) is actually going to make your army more fragile than you think.  Cge 13 is nice, but the D:2/2 and 4G/2Y/4R hitboxes means you will be taking checks fairly often.  And with Impulsive, you're going to be faced with the choice of starting bad fights on your turn or drawing cards (which isn't much a choice:  draw the cards most times) and so combats will start earlier than you want.  Just something to keep in mind.


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Midgard's Charm (2)
Your unit gets D: +1/+0 this attack.  If your unit has the Call of Valhalla box checked that unit gets D: +2/+0 this attack instead.

Hail to the Hammer (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Call of Valhalla box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  

Show Your Swords (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Call of Valhalla box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+1) +0/+0 this attack.  

Neat effect, but like I said above, not enough to justify spending the card on the ability.  Also, I think its odd that the Red cards get exactly half the bonus that the Blue card gets.


Like I said before, this is a great idea and this faction should become a reality.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on March 27, 2015, 03:52:22 PM
Thanks for your input!  I'll address these as best I can right now.

Arctic Wolves - I'm thinking that the throw away unit in this faction will either be the Wolves or the Polar Bears.  I'm not sure which.

Call of Valhalla - I prefer to start an ability off as weak and then work upwards from there.  What do you thing would strengthen it up to the point where it would be worth it to check the ability box?  The simplest fix would be to not make it count as playing a command card.  Would that be too good?

Fyrd Spearmen - There's a few units here that don't have the names carved in stone.  This happens to be one of them.  For now I like the idea of keeping the name of the Warriors as is because... well... they're Viking Warriors!  Surely in time that could also change if something grabs me as being better.

Einherjar - I liked the idea of a tank unit that tanked through bulk and not defensive stats.  They will eventually be destroyed by good units, but they will have to carve their way all the way through.  I'm wondering if I should just pull an attack die off to make them a (5) 5/5, which would put them at 225 points.  Would making them more affordable increase their tank value without changing anything else?

Valkyries - Based on your suggestion I removed Impulsive and gave them a 6 offensive power and that shot the points value way up past 400.  Which is an incredible price to pay for what basically amounts to a super charged glass cannon.  If I remove a hit die from that metric to make them (5) 6/6 they go down to 393 points.  Which is still incredibly high, but I can probably deal with that.  But yeah, nixing the impulsiveness would erase a huge amount of headaches with this unit.

Shield Maidens - Jacking the defensive stat up to a 3/2 pumps them up to 268 points, which isn't as bad as I thought it would be.  I could ride with that.

Polar Bear Cavalry - Impulsive cavalry units can be a pain, but making them so is certainly worth considering because I can totally see that matching the flavor.

Frost Giant - I accidentally omitted the fact that they are a 1 card pitch-and-play.  I have it in the formula, just neglected to write it in my initial post above.  As it stands, it's 488 points.  I'm uncertain what to charge it for the Frost Blast ability so I started off by charging it as though it was an impact hit (+20 points making it 508).  I'm not sure if I should charge more for the ability because unlike an impact hit, it's not built in.  You need to spend a CA to check the box.  On the other hand, I could make it like Dragon fire breathing boxes and you just mark them off as you use the ability.  If that was the case I'd probably have to charge a bit more for that ability.  Any thoughts on that one?

Shield Wall - It's basically a mass Parry.  Since it only works on units that have the ability box checked I'm thinking I may include a second option to discard the card to draw another one.  Especially since this card can get worse in endgame situations.

The command cards can be worked out once the Call of Valhalla ability is balanced.  That includes Shield Wall above.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on March 27, 2015, 04:33:09 PM
Arctic Wolves - I'm thinking that the throw away unit in this faction will either be the Wolves or the Polar Bears.  I'm not sure which.

Something I mentioned to you privately, is that this faction feels a little too unsure of what it is.  If feels like you have 8 semi-historical units with 4 fantasy units tossed in, but without much glue to hold them together.  It feels like Ravenwood, but with wood elves we have a built-in justification for why spirits of the woods are fighting alongside the elves.  But I'm not getting any feeling like that here.

My intuition is that you should pick a direction.  Either these guys are a "Nordic Hawkshold" that could easily be a historical faction (in which case drop the mystical Valkyries and Bear cavalry) or they're a fantasy Viking (in which case the Bear cavalry is not over-the-top enough, like you need things like Jotun-Kin as your Core choices instead of just Huscarls).  Just my feeling.


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Call of Valhalla - I prefer to start an ability off as weak and then work upwards from there.  What do you thing would strengthen it up to the point where it would be worth it to check the ability box?  The simplest fix would be to not make it count as playing a command card.  Would that be too good?

Honestly, I'd probably ditch this ability altogether.  If you want the guys to have a Pow charge, then you can very easily do that (heck the formula has it costed in!).  I dunno, I'd probably come up with a different ability altogether.


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Einherjar - I liked the idea of a tank unit that tanked through bulk and not defensive stats.  They will eventually be destroyed by good units, but they will have to carve their way all the way through.  I'm wondering if I should just pull an attack die off to make them a (5) 5/5, which would put them at 225 points.  Would making them more affordable increase their tank value without changing anything else?

225pts is still high for a Non-Core tank, but is definitely better than 250pts.


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Valkyries - Based on your suggestion I removed Impulsive and gave them a 6 offensive power and that shot the points value way up past 400.  Which is an incredible price to pay for what basically amounts to a super charged glass cannon.  If I remove a hit die from that metric to make them (5) 6/6 they go down to 393 points.  Which is still incredibly high, but I can probably deal with that.  But yeah, nixing the impulsiveness would erase a huge amount of headaches with this unit.

Or leave them at Pow 5.  I was just spitballing.


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Frost Giant - I accidentally omitted the fact that they are a 1 card pitch-and-play.  I have it in the formula, just neglected to write it in my initial post above.  As it stands, it's 488 points.  I'm uncertain what to charge it for the Frost Blast ability so I started off by charging it as though it was an impact hit (+20 points making it 508).  I'm not sure if I should charge more for the ability because unlike an impact hit, it's not built in.  You need to spend a CA to check the box.  On the other hand, I could make it like Dragon fire breathing boxes and you just mark them off as you use the ability.  If that was the case I'd probably have to charge a bit more for that ability.  Any thoughts on that one?

Honestly, I wouldn't charge it as anything, because 1 CA for -1 die is really weak.  Its not really an ability I'd use much.


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Shield Wall - It's basically a mass Parry.  Since it only works on units that have the ability box checked I'm thinking I may include a second option to discard the card to draw another one.  Especially since this card can get worse in endgame situations.

My bad!  I misread that originally.  I thought the Viking units got -1 die (on account they were hunkered down by their shields).  In that case, it's probably too strong.  Mass Parry is a really good thing.  I think just a +2 Def Skill across the board would work just fine.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on March 27, 2015, 08:40:08 PM

Something I mentioned to you privately, is that this faction feels a little too unsure of what it is.  If feels like you have 8 semi-historical units with 4 fantasy units tossed in, but without much glue to hold them together.  It feels like Ravenwood, but with wood elves we have a built-in justification for why spirits of the woods are fighting alongside the elves.  But I'm not getting any feeling like that here.

My intuition is that you should pick a direction.  Either these guys are a "Nordic Hawkshold" that could easily be a historical faction (in which case drop the mystical Valkyries and Bear cavalry) or they're a fantasy Viking (in which case the Bear cavalry is not over-the-top enough, like you need things like Jotun-Kin as your Core choices instead of just Huscarls).  Just my feeling.
My intention was to create a faction where the Core units are really close to historical accuracy while the Standard and Elite units would be pure fantasy.

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Frost Giant - I accidentally omitted the fact that they are a 1 card pitch-and-play.  I have it in the formula, just neglected to write it in my initial post above.  As it stands, it's 488 points.  I'm uncertain what to charge it for the Frost Blast ability so I started off by charging it as though it was an impact hit (+20 points making it 508).  I'm not sure if I should charge more for the ability because unlike an impact hit, it's not built in.  You need to spend a CA to check the box.  On the other hand, I could make it like Dragon fire breathing boxes and you just mark them off as you use the ability.  If that was the case I'd probably have to charge a bit more for that ability.  Any thoughts on that one?

Honestly, I wouldn't charge it as anything, because 1 CA for -1 die is really weak.  Its not really an ability I'd use much.
It's not an ability I would use much at all myself.  But it's a really nice thing to have up your sleave if your 500 point unit gets pinched.  Especially since he's Impulsive  8)

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Shield Wall - It's basically a mass Parry.  Since it only works on units that have the ability box checked I'm thinking I may include a second option to discard the card to draw another one.  Especially since this card can get worse in endgame situations.

My bad!  I misread that originally.  I thought the Viking units got -1 die (on account they were hunkered down by their shields).  In that case, it's probably too strong.  Mass Parry is a really good thing.  I think just a +2 Def Skill across the board would work just fine.
Yeah, a mass Parry is crazy strong.  But again, it only applies to units that have the faction ability check box marked.  Does that balance it out enough?

Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on March 27, 2015, 10:12:35 PM
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My intention was to create a faction where the Core units are really close to historical accuracy while the Standard and Elite units would be pure fantasy.

Well then you're missing the mark by far.  Because those Core choices look more like the Hollywood History vikings than actual vikings.


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It's not an ability I would use much at all myself.  But it's a really nice thing to have up your sleave if your 500 point unit gets pinched.  Especially since he's Impulsive   8)

In that situation, I'd probably spend the CA drawing the card.


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Yeah, a mass Parry is crazy strong.  But again, it only applies to units that have the faction ability check box marked.  Does that balance it out enough?

Probably.  I still have concerns of how strong it is, but then again, having a bunch of guys need the checkbox to get maximum usage might be balanced.  Or it might be swingy.

Maybe a better one would be that it gives (-1)-0/-0 and if you have the marked box you get D:+1/+0.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: opimius on March 30, 2015, 02:02:14 AM
A few, likely disjointed, comments.  Overall, I really like this idea - Vikings are just one of those things that culturally resonates so deeply that not having them borders on problematic - and I think this is very much on the right path.  The ahistoricity of the core units doesn't bother me too much - (5)5/5 2/2 4G/3Y/3R modified by weapons and differentiated mostly by gear and Cge., while historically fairly accurate, gets boring quickly (in fairness, a lot of the historical differentiation is best captured in ways that Battleground, as it currently exists, would need a whole new mod to deal with).  Call of Valhalla is weak - not broken weak, but weak - as laid out above; my instinct is to just make it the old POW charge, but that is mostly for simplicity.  I really dislike the Pagan Spirit name (the card is meh, but the name I don't like) - I just don't feel them calling themselves "pagans", and Thor has yet to be invoked ...  The Frost Giant is really good, and yet his ability is a total POS; not sure right now how to fix this, but it will almost never be used.  The Valkyries - which I prefer at POW 6 - should probably not be flying.  Yes, I know the mythology and all, but the mechanics of flying are a pain.  Maybe something along the lines of the Triarii swap might be better; it would certainly be easier (and, if properly restricted, could really hit the flavor of "choosers of the slain").  The Shieldmaidens ought remain 3/1 - I suspect this is going to be a conversation for me soon - because if they are merely women skilled at arms, they can just be part of the other basic units, but if they are something special, they need to have a purpose.  Since in this case, both gameplay and cultural resonance push me towards the 3/1 (and probably 5/5), I go there first.  Impulsive cav hurts my brain right now, so my instinct is not to do it.  The Viking bowmen are overcosted for what they do - either use the crossbows as a template, or just let them suck in melee, because the game really does not need more bowmen that tend to stay in the box anyway.  I do like the wolves, but let me put them on the table sometime first - they make me a touch queasy mechanically.  Keep up the good work, though - I have yet to see a fantasy game that couldn't use more Vikings!
 
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on March 30, 2015, 09:34:28 AM
Thanks for the input guys!  I'll regurgitate a spat of ideas (some good, most probably bad) shortly.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on March 30, 2015, 10:47:05 AM
A few, likely disjointed, comments.  Overall, I really like this idea - Vikings are just one of those things that culturally resonates so deeply that not having them borders on problematic - and I think this is very much on the right path. 

Look, Marcus, you managed to get Scott to post on a non-Rules Team thread!  All you had to do was talk about his favorite army type:  vikings.


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The ahistoricity of the core units doesn't bother me too much

To be clear:  I wasn't saying Vikings shouldn't be a-historical.  My comment is that they weren't a-historical enough.  Fantasy vikings offers so much possibility that I think you should really embrace that, rather than sticking to a (faux) historical template.  For example, one idea right off the top of my head is make the vikings descended from giants, so their army ability is named something like Jotunkin or Jotun Blood.


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The Valkyries - which I prefer at POW 6 - should probably not be flying.  Yes, I know the mythology and all, but the mechanics of flying are a pain. 

Scott & I have this debate all the time:

Scott:  "I don't like flying units, because the rules are so OFP."
Me:  "The flying rules feel so weird because there's not a lot of flying units.  Add more and people will get used to the rules."

 ;D


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The Shieldmaidens ought remain 3/1 - I suspect this is going to be a conversation for me soon - because if they are merely women skilled at arms, they can just be part of the other basic units, but if they are something special, they need to have a purpose.  Since in this case, both gameplay and cultural resonance push me towards the 3/1 (and probably 5/5), I go there first. 

At which point Shieldmaidens become Battle Squad like units.


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Impulsive cav hurts my brain right now, so my instinct is not to do it. 

Gallic Cavalry are Impulsive, and you like them (more than I do in fact).


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The Viking bowmen are overcosted for what they do - either use the crossbows as a template, or just let them suck in melee, because the game really does not need more bowmen that tend to stay in the box anyway. 

I don't think they're overcosted vis-a-vi other archers; Hawkshold Bowmen are 165pts.  Not being Core is going to hurt them though.


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Keep up the good work, though - I have yet to see a fantasy game that couldn't use more Vikings!

In this, Scott & I are in violent agreement!


Thanks for the input guys!  I'll regurgitate a spat of ideas (some good, most probably bad) shortly.

M'eh, that's what a lot of design is:  starting with a stone block and chiseling away.
 
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on March 31, 2015, 04:46:28 PM
OK, after some discussion with Corey, communion with the Gods, and watching The 13th warrior 97 times, I’ve made a few edits.  Some of the command card names are still in flux, as are some of the unit names themselves.  1 big change I made is by giving the non-large impulsive units an impact hit to reflect their sheer ferocity in battle.

Faction Ability: Jotunkin: Spend a Command Action to mark the Jotunkin box on the unit.  You may erase the box during the Movement & Command Phase to give the unit (+1)+0/+0 and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit is in the Red, the unit gets (+2+0/+0 and +2 Cge this turn instead.

Faction Ability: Wave Dasher.  Midgard units recieve a -1 MC movement penalty instead of the standard -2 MC penalty when moving through shallow water.

Units

Midgard Warriors (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
204 Points
Notes: The bulk of Scandinavian fighting forces, they where good individual warriors that used a variety of weapons and armor.  However, they where not always the most cohesive of fighting units.

Fyrd Spearmen (Core) (6) 4/5 2/2 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
171 points

Notes: Farmers who where given farmland by the Earl.  But these farmers never strayed far from their warrior roots.

Huscarls (Core) (5) 5/6 1/3 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/3/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
258 points

Notes: Vested land owners favored by the Earl who where wealthier that standard land owners and thus could afford better weapons and armor.  Danish Huscarls made up a good amount of the English army at the Battle of Hastings and wielded the dreaded Dane Axe.

Yearlings (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
156 points

Notes: Teen aged Viking Warriors eager to prove their worth on their first raid.

Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
221 points

Notes: Lightly armored Warriors who hurled hand axes before entering combat.

Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

Notes: They fought a bit better than your average bowmen (note that I got the points wrong on my first posting)

Einherjar (5) 5/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/5 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
235 points

Notes: The ghosts of the worthy dead return from Valhala itself to fight at your side!  They are fearless in death.

Arctic Wolves (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C- 12 M-6"
Hit boxes 2/5/2
O (+2) +0/+0 and D +3/+0 during post-Rout Free Attacks. If Arctic Wolves Rout, they automatically rally at the end of turn. Is unaffected by your command Cards.  To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
180 points

Notes: Bigger, stronger, and smarter than their distant cousins in Ravenwood.
(This unit may get the axe)

Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
277 Points

Notes: These women fought along side of the men and made up for their lack of comparative size and strength with quickness.  Many of them fought with a chip on their shoulder, so to speak.

Sons of Odin (Elite) (6) 6/6 2/3 R- C-14 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 5/2/4 (Jotunkin, wave Dasher) Passes all Fear Checks. (This ability does not apply to Rout Checks.)
Spears: (-1) -0/-0 while Charging.(+0) +1/+0 vs. Cavalry and/or Large units. (+0) +0/+2 while Holding vs. Charging Cavalry and/or Charging Large units.
438 Points

The great warrior priests who have taken up the spear in honor of the All Father Odin.  The most zealous of them have plucked out an eye to emulate him.  They fight with the strength of the Gods.

Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
375 points

Notes: Vikings are awesome.  Bears are brutal.  Cavalry is sweet.  This is what happens when you bring them all together.

Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points

Notes: Odin's War Maidens sent from Valhalla on winged steeds to collect the souls of the slain in battle.  They have been known to contribute to the slain on their own accord.  While they are fearsome allies in battle, they have a will of their own.

Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1/4 R-10.5” C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
2 Frost Blast boxes.  When unengaged, you may mark off 1 Frost blast box to give Frost Giant a line of sight ranged attack of (3) 6/6.
501 points

Notes: More clever than their cousins in the Hills, The mighty Frost Giants have betrayed the Jotun to fight with the Vikings on behalf of the Gods.

Command Cards

Shield Wall (2)
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Engaged enemy attacks against your units get (-1)-0/-0 this turn.  Units with a marked [Jotunkin] box also get D:+1/+0 this turn while the box is marked.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

 Call of Valhalla (2)
Play during a courage phase, before you take any courage checks.  
Up to 3 of your units gets +2 Courage this turn.  If any of these units has the Jotunkin box checked, it gets an additional +1 courage.

Freyja's Haven (2)
Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.  If your unit has the Jotunkin box checked the attacking unit cannot have command cards played on it.

Hail to the Hammer (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.  

Show Your Swords (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +1/+0 this attack.  
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on March 31, 2015, 07:26:34 PM
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1 big change I made is by giving the non-large impulsive units an impact hit to reflect their sheer ferocity in battle.
I am a bit confused by this because shield maidens are not impulsive but get the impact hit.
I would like the flavor of a more experienced unit which is not impulsive as warriors yearlings housecarls etc (because they have seen enough battle that the need to prove themselves is not as keen) and better attack skill. The Polar Bear Cavalry, while interesting, for me breaks the mood and makes the faction less viking-like. Instead of getting rid of Arctic Wolves, were I you, I would be tempted instead to double down on wolfiness and make an even bigger version (Dire Wolves maybe?) instead of Polar Bear cav.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on April 01, 2015, 12:38:50 AM
My thoughts, in no particular order.

Faction Ability: Jotunkin: Spend a Command Action to mark the Jotunkin box on the unit.  You may erase the box during the Movement & Command Phase to give the unit (+1)+0/+0 and +1 Cge this turn.  If the unit is in the Red, the unit gets (+2+0/+0 and +2 Cge this turn instead.

Faction Ability: Wave Dasher.  Midgard units recieve a -1 MC movement penalty instead of the standard -2 MC penalty when moving through shallow water.

I'd recommend adding Impulsive here, just so that its in the "reminder card" territory, so people can see it and know the effect.

I also wonder if you should give Impulsive units a 5% discount instead of a 3%, since you are spamming it pretty much army wide.  5% is what Stupid units get and I figure with all that impulsive the effect has got to be at least as bad as having 1 Ogre unit on the table.


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Units
Yearlings (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
156 points

Previously, these guys were a D:1/2.  Did you mean to changed them to a D:2/1?


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Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/4/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
214 points

A couple of thoughts here:

1)  These points look way wrong.  I get 268 for a unit with this statline.

2)  A recommendation on the hit boxes:  I suggest putting these guys at 4G/2Y/4R like warriors, to keep that theme.  If you want someone who is front loaded with boxes, representing a more elite formation, I suggest Huscarls.

3)  Maybe make these guys a D:2/1?  They're raiders and that screams light armor to me.



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Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

This is accurately costed, but I can tell you that these guys are probably going to be stay-in-the-box units.  Being this expensive and non-Core?  They're going to be Trog Archers all over again.  Not much we can do about that, I guess.  Except maybe fix the shooting rules, but that's another conversation for another time.


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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
243 Points

I agree with Ron, that not having an impact hit works better.  I also much prefer this unit at D:3/2.

 
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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

I've come around to this unit.  I think its over the top enough to be worth keeping.  My thoughts are: 

1)  why don't these guys get a checkbox?  And why are they pitch-to-play?  I see nothing in them that says they shouldn't get those.  I mean you can say "hey, Bears, like Ravenwood," but Drake Riders don't have that restriction.  Neither do Wolf Riders.  Or any other cavalry in the game.  Feels like these guys should get those abilities, otherwise I think they'll be a very sub-par unit.  Right now it feels like they're in their neither region:  they pay a lot of points, just enough to be really hindered by those drawbacks, but they don't pay enough points to get good stats to overcome their drawbacks (like a Giant or a Hydra).

2)  The points are a bit off.  I think you forgot the cavalry_vulnerability modifier, which lowers their cost to 338.

3)  These guys really should be Impulsive....




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Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points

And these shouldn't be Impulsive.  It'll make them a nightmare to control.

Notes: Odin's War Maidens sent from Valhalla on winged steeds to collect the souls of the slain in battle.  They have been known to contribute to the slain on their own accord.  While they are fearsome allies in battle, they have a will of their own.


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Command Cards
Shield Wall (2)
Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Engaged enemy attacks against your units get (-1)-0/-0 this turn.  Units with a marked [Jotunkin] box also get D:+1/+0 this turn while the box is marked.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

You know, on review this card is pretty weak if you don't have a marked checkbox.  Give up all blue cards for -1 die?  Here's an idea:  make it D:+1/+0 for all your units, and you can't play blue command cards.  Then give them D:+0/+1 while the checkbox is marked.  D:+1/+1 seems like a lot, but you're having to devote multiple CAs to do it.


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Freyja's Haven (2)
Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.  If your unit has the Jotunkin box checked the attacking unit cannot have command cards played on it.

Hail to the Hammer (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack. 

Show Your Swords (2)
Play during an attack before you roll to hit.
Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +1/+0 this attack. 

My thought on these is to tie the marked checkbox together with toughness & strength, to really draw the theme together. My thoughts:

Freya's Haven: additional D:+0/+1 with the marked box.  (i.e. D:+0/+2 and enemy has -1 die)

Hail to the Hammer:  additional (+0)+0/+1 with the marked box.  (i.e. O:(+1)+0/+2)

Show your Sowrds:  additional (+0)+0/+1 with the marked box.  (i.e. O:(+1)+1/+1).

That, with the above idea for Shieldwall really makes the vikings feel like they're tougher and stronger.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on April 01, 2015, 10:32:11 AM
Thanks for your thoughts Ron!  I addressed the Sheild Maidens below.  I've actually discussed a Dire Wolf type unit with Corey.  I'm not wild about it, but the door is still open on that one.  The Polar Bear Cavalry is pure fantasy cheese. 

My thoughts, in no particular order.

Faction Ability:...

I'd recommend adding Impulsive here, just so that its in the "reminder card" territory, so people can see it and know the effect.

I also wonder if you should give Impulsive units a 5% discount instead of a 3%, since you are spamming it pretty much army wide.  5% is what Stupid units get and I figure with all that impulsive the effect has got to be at least as bad as having 1 Ogre unit on the table.
Including Impulsive on the reminder card is fine.  I suppose play testing will reveal the value of Impulsiveness en masse?

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Units
Yearlings (Core) (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
156 points

Previously, these guys were a D:1/2.  Did you mean to changed them to a D:2/1?
Ack!  This was a typo from the beginning.  It should have been a 2/1 defense all along.  That's what I have in the formula.  I'll fix it above.

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Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/4/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
214 points

A couple of thoughts here:

1)  These points look way wrong.  I get 268 for a unit with this statline.

2)  A recommendation on the hit boxes:  I suggest putting these guys at 4G/2Y/4R like warriors, to keep that theme.  If you want someone who is front loaded with boxes, representing a more elite formation, I suggest Huscarls.

3)  Maybe make these guys a D:2/1?  They're raiders and that screams light armor to me.
Double Ack!  I have no idea how so many mistakes got in there, I probably copied stats from the Warriors and plunked it down on the Raiders.  They where originally a 2/1 defense and a 4/2/2 hit box configuration.  My thought was that as a unit they would be a bit looser in formation and wouldn't have as many individuals in a unit as most of the other line units.  At that they would be 214.  If I give them 4/2/4 they become 221.  I also had made a mistake in the formula for neglecting to factor in their MC for being Impulsive (Impulsive_MC_5).  I feel that's a bit high for this type of unit.  What do you think?

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Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

This is accurately costed, but I can tell you that these guys are probably going to be stay-in-the-box units.  Being this expensive and non-Core?  They're going to be Trog Archers all over again.  Not much we can do about that, I guess.  Except maybe fix the shooting rules, but that's another conversation for another time.
Yeah, I'm really struggling with these guys.  I don't feel that mass archery would be common enough for Midgard to justify them being Core.  And I absolutely HATE the idea of any archery unit having a (4) 3/3 engaged attack.  I know archers are not front line fighter types, but a 3/3 offensive stat is like being attacked by a gang of 5th graders.  Making them a 1/1 defense brings them down to 179 points.  a 0/2 makes them 185.  Either one is a decent fix, we'd just be left with a lesser version of the same problem.  Any advice here would be helpful.

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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
243 Points

I agree with Ron, that not having an impact hit works better.  I also much prefer this unit at D:3/2.
OK, non-impulsive and no impact hit at a 3/2 defense makes them 277 points.  They are beginning to look an awful lot like High Elven Swordsmen.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

I've come around to this unit.  I think its over the top enough to be worth keeping.  My thoughts are: 

1)  why don't these guys get a checkbox?  And why are they pitch-to-play?  I see nothing in them that says they shouldn't get those.  I mean you can say "hey, Bears, like Ravenwood," but Drake Riders don't have that restriction.  Neither do Wolf Riders.  Or any other cavalry in the game.  Feels like these guys should get those abilities, otherwise I think they'll be a very sub-par unit.  Right now it feels like they're in their neither region:  they pay a lot of points, just enough to be really hindered by those drawbacks, but they don't pay enough points to get good stats to overcome their drawbacks (like a Giant or a Hydra).

3)  These guys really should be Impulsive....
My thoughts on the pitch to play where that the Bears are a bit more difficult to control than horses.  Of course making them Impulsive sort of reflects the same thing.  Earlier on the faction ability gave a +1 power and I figured that these guys didn't need that.  Changing the ability to Jotunkin makes having a check box on them viable.  Speaking of which, I'm starting to like Jotunblut better as the faction ability name.

2)  The points are a bit off.  I think you forgot the cavalry_vulnerability modifier, which lowers their cost to 338.
No, I left the cavalry_vulnerability modifier off intentionally because the unit has 8 hit boxes instead of the 5-7 hit boxes all other cavalry units posses.  At what point do you draw the line with that?  I mean, 8 hit boxes is pushing into line unit territory.  Am I wrong for doing that?

BTW - No pitch to play with a faction ability and Impulsive - 352 points.

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Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points

And these shouldn't be Impulsive.  It'll make them a nightmare to control.
I had removed the Impulsiveness from the formula but forgot to remove it from the description.  Corrected above.  I'm also struggling with this unit because they are just so darned expensive for what their combat ability allows.  I'm kicking the tires on an idea that reflects that they would fly onto the battlefield pre-game but remained grounded for the duration of the battle itself.  Something along the lines of the rules Skirmishers use for deployment.  Valkyries on steeds by definition fly so there should be some reflection of that in the unit.  I'm just really souring on the thought of a ~400 point unit that acts like a bunch of fearless Antonians.

Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on April 01, 2015, 01:05:48 PM
Quote
Viking Raiders (Core) (5) 5/5 2/2 R-3.5" C-13 M-5"
Hit boxes 4/4/2 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Hurled axes use javelin rule.
214 points

A couple of thoughts here:

1)  These points look way wrong.  I get 268 for a unit with this statline.

2)  A recommendation on the hit boxes:  I suggest putting these guys at 4G/2Y/4R like warriors, to keep that theme.  If you want someone who is front loaded with boxes, representing a more elite formation, I suggest Huscarls.

3)  Maybe make these guys a D:2/1?  They're raiders and that screams light armor to me.
Double Ack!  I have no idea how so many mistakes got in there, I probably copied stats from the Warriors and plunked it down on the Raiders.  They where originally a 2/1 defense and a 4/2/2 hit box configuration.  My thought was that as a unit they would be a bit looser in formation and wouldn't have as many individuals in a unit as most of the other line units.  At that they would be 214.  If I give them 4/2/4 they become 221.  I also had made a mistake in the formula for neglecting to factor in their MC for being Impulsive (Impulsive_MC_5).  I feel that's a bit high for this type of unit.  What do you think?

Oh, if you want them to be 4/2/2, then by all means go with that!  And them being at D:2/1 brings their cost down to a very manageable 215pts (the Impulsive_MC_5 is n't an original modifier.  It's something I was tweaking with in regards to accurately costing Impulsive.  I forgot to delete it before i email you the formula).


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Viking Bowmen (4) 5/5 1/2 R-14" C-12 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3
(-0) -1/-1 and while Engaged.
193 points

This is accurately costed, but I can tell you that these guys are probably going to be stay-in-the-box units.  Being this expensive and non-Core?  They're going to be Trog Archers all over again.  Not much we can do about that, I guess.  Except maybe fix the shooting rules, but that's another conversation for another time.
Yeah, I'm really struggling with these guys.  I don't feel that mass archery would be common enough for Midgard to justify them being Core.  And I absolutely HATE the idea of any archery unit having a (4) 3/3 engaged attack.  I know archers are not front line fighter types, but a 3/3 offensive stat is like being attacked by a gang of 5th graders.  Making them a 1/1 defense brings them down to 179 points.  a 0/2 makes them 185.  Either one is a decent fix, we'd just be left with a lesser version of the same problem.  Any advice here would be helpful.

If non-spammed archers had value, I'd say the unit is fine (although not being Core might reduce their value).  You're paying a 30pt premium for a unit that can fight somewhat decently as a backup unit (like the Umenzi Atlatlmen) and finish off an enemy unit that is down to the Red during the process of killing that backed-up unit.  That's not a terrible premium for a unit with a decent secondary use.  Its just their primary use (shooting) isn't a great return on those points you spent.  That's a problem of the shooting rules (which IMO needs fixing), not the unit itself.

Shooting is a case where the game has passed the formula by.  The formula has shown to be remarkably robust in most situations, especially considering how very different the game was from V1 to now.  Its just that the shooting rules are so different that the formula has become a loose proxy (at best) for shooting value.

My suggestion is to not try to tweak the unit.  Design the unit as thought 1-2 units of Skill 5 archers is a good buy.  Eventually, the Rules Team will get around to tweaking the rules to make that a reality.  When they do, units like this will come out of the box again and be balanced.  But if you try to make the unit worth taking with this set of crappy shooting rules, then when the rules get fixed this unit will be overpowered (and in fact this unit would be used as an argument against making any changes).

As an aside, there is a justification for having them be Core.  The Vikings did actually use archery a fair bit.  They'd have archers hang back behind the shieldwall, pouring fire into the enemy.  Like I said, I'm not a big fan of being a slave to history (you seem more interested in modelling the Core choices that way), but if you wanted to do it, you could.


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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/1 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
243 Points

I agree with Ron, that not having an impact hit works better.  I also much prefer this unit at D:3/2.
OK, non-impulsive and no impact hit at a 3/2 defense makes them 277 points.  They are beginning to look an awful lot like High Elven Swordsmen.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Well, at D:3/1 they looked a lot like DE Highblood Swordsmen.  There's only so many permutations of stats.   ;)

You could give them an extra Red box (make them 4/2/4), which would help differentiate them from Elves.

Still think they should be called Shield Wives . . .


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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry (no faction ability)
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
356 points

I've come around to this unit.  I think its over the top enough to be worth keeping.  My thoughts are: 

1)  why don't these guys get a checkbox?  And why are they pitch-to-play?  I see nothing in them that says they shouldn't get those.  I mean you can say "hey, Bears, like Ravenwood," but Drake Riders don't have that restriction.  Neither do Wolf Riders.  Or any other cavalry in the game.  Feels like these guys should get those abilities, otherwise I think they'll be a very sub-par unit.  Right now it feels like they're in their neither region:  they pay a lot of points, just enough to be really hindered by those drawbacks, but they don't pay enough points to get good stats to overcome their drawbacks (like a Giant or a Hydra).

3)  These guys really should be Impulsive....
My thoughts on the pitch to play where that the Bears are a bit more difficult to control than horses.  Of course making them Impulsive sort of reflects the same thing.  Earlier on the faction ability gave a +1 power and I figured that these guys didn't need that.  Changing the ability to Jotunkin makes having a check box on them viable. 

I'll take it one step further:  if you make these guys Impulsive, I'd give them the extra impact too (so they'd be 2 impact hits on the charge). 


Quote
2)  The points are a bit off.  I think you forgot the cavalry_vulnerability modifier, which lowers their cost to 338.
No, I left the cavalry_vulnerability modifier off intentionally because the unit has 8 hit boxes instead of the 5-7 hit boxes all other cavalry units posses.  At what point do you draw the line with that?  I mean, 8 hit boxes is pushing into line unit territory.  Am I wrong for doing that?

I'd give them the cavalry vulnerability, honestly.  They are still vulnerable to spearmen.  If you want to feel better, make them 3G/2Y/3R instead of 3/3/2.  So while they would have 8 boxes, more than 2 Red boxes is usually a waste.  And making them 3/2/3 keeps the hit box theme of the warriors (and it makes the army ability better).


Quote
BTW - No pitch to play with a faction ability and Impulsive - 352 points.

With Cge 14, their cost is actually 375 pts.  Also, you should use the normal Impulsive & not the "MC 5 Impulsive."  That brings their cost to 383 pts.  Here's some of the options I mentioned above:

A)  Extra impact hit + Cav Vulnerability = 384 pts

B)  3/2/3 boxes + cav vulnerability = 357 pts

C)  3/2/3 box + extra impact hit + cav vulnerability:  377 pts


btw, if you wanted you could reduce their Courage to 13.  That would lower their base cost to 347pts.  It'd also make the above cost:
A)  367 pts
B)  339 pts
C)  359 pts


I'll be honest, I like Option C at Cge 14.  The hit boxes fits with the rest of the faction and could assuage your conscience on the Cavalry vulnerability thing.  The extra impact hit and Cge 14 will make these guys a real centerpiece unit of the faction.  Because face it, these guys are going to be like Trolls:  they're the cool shiney most people will want to play.  So let's not make them play like Trolls (i.e. suck).   ;D


Quote
Speaking of which, I'm starting to like Jotunblut better as the faction ability name.

Just be aware that Scion uses that exact name for the special ability of the Norse Demigods.


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Valkyries (Elite) (5) 6/6 2*/2 R- C- M-6"
Hit boxes 3/2/1
Flying, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
393 points
I'm also struggling with this unit because they are just so darned expensive for what their combat ability allows.  I'm kicking the tires on an idea that reflects that they would fly onto the battlefield pre-game but remained grounded for the duration of the battle itself.  Something along the lines of the rules Skirmishers use for deployment.  Valkyries on steeds by definition fly so there should be some reflection of that in the unit.  I'm just really souring on the thought of a ~400 point unit that acts like a bunch of fearless Antonians.

Responding to the corrected version (which is quoted above):  Fearless Antonians are nothing to sneeze at!  But if you want to bring their cost down you could make them D:2/1, which brings them down to 332pts.  For the record, I'm actually okay with a 393pt flying unit , especially one that is Pow 6!  Other things you can do:

--Make them (6)6/5.  That brings their cost down to 371pts.

--Make them (5)6/5.  Brings their cost to 334.

--Some combo of the above.  (6)6/5 & D:2/1 = 313 pts.   (5)6/5 & D:2/1 = 282pts.

I'll be honest, I think they should stay at 6 dice so they get +2 dice when they charge in the Red.

btw, it seems like you priced in that they don't have a checkbox, but that's not noted there.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on April 02, 2015, 12:35:15 PM
If you are going for cheesiness with polar bear cav, why not go all in and call them Warbears like the unit from the Titan boardgame?
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on April 02, 2015, 01:01:51 PM
YES!!!
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on April 30, 2015, 03:07:43 PM
I posted up a session report of the game Scott and I played (http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,10186.0.html) last night.  We played using some revised command cards & checkbox ability that Marcus gave us:

Quote
Jotunkin:  Spend a Command Action to mark the Jotunkin box on the unit.  You may erase the box during the Movement & Command Phase to give the unit (+2)+0/+0, D:-1/-0, and +1 Cge this turn.

Shield Wall: Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Your units get  D:+1/+0 this turn.   Engaged attacks against units with a marked [Jotunkin] box suffer O:(-1)-0/-0 this turn. You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

Call of Valhalla:  Play during a courage phase, before you take any courage checks.  Up to 3 of your units gets +2 Courage this turn.  If any of these units has the Jotunkin box checked, it gets an additional +1 Courage this turn.

Freya’s Haven:  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.    If your unit has the Jotunkin box it gets an additiona D:+0/+1

Hail to the Hammer: Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.   If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

Show your Swords: Play during an attack before you roll to hit. Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  If played on a unit has its Jotunkin box checked, your unit gets an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.


Shield Wall was never drawn so I can't say anything about it.  And Jotunkin was never erased.  Scott marked it several times, but that for the bonuses on Command Cards.  There was one time he would have erased it, but we were in the combat phase and he'd played a Freya's Haven on the unit.  If he hadn't used the Blue card, I would've let him erase it retroactively.


Call of Valhalla did get played once and we both agree its a really lame card.  The cookie for the checkbox is too weak to justify the card being lamers than Uncommon Valor.  We think this card needs to be reviewed.  Of the top of my head, I'm wondering if a weak reroll is about right:  rather than a +1 Cge w/reroll just do a simple reroll with no bonus.  That would put the yellow check success rate (after the reroll) at 93%, which is actually a little higher than Cold Blooded on a Cge 12 unit.


Freya's Haven, Show your Swords, and Heil ( :P) to the Hammer got played a lot, and we really don't like the interaction with the checkbox.  First, there is no decision tension here:  you will never erase the box over using it in conjunction with a command card.  The bonus provided by the command card is just better.

Second, we feel its overpowered.  If you're spending 1 CA to go to (+1)+1/+1 or (+1)+0/+2 that's fine,  but that's not what will happen.  I'll spend 1 CA to get the benefit of Show Your Swords this turn and then next turn I'll play Show your Swords again.  Or I'll play Show your Swords and then Freya's Haven.  Or I'll do both.  You're going to mark the box with the intent to use 2-3 (or more) faction cards on that unit.

Third, we didn't like the "go fish" dynamic that this creates.  Normally, we spend an CAs on command and control then decide whether to allocate the rest between checkboxes or command cards.  Usually it's cards.  

With this interaction, you're going to wait to mark the checkbox till you have the cards, so you end up spending 1 CA at a time.  Normally the dynamic is "Okay, I spend 1 CA here to not get pinched. . .then draw 3 cards."  With this it's "Okay, I spend 1 CA to not get pinched. . .draw 1 card, check see if its a faction-specific. . .draw 1 card, oh I got Heil to the Hammer so now I'll spend that last CA to mark the box."

I'll admit its a personal preference, but it feels wrong to fish for the right cards and only mark the checkbox after you know you have them. There's no decision tension anywhere:  you fish for the faction cards, then you mark the box when you get them, and you drop 2-3 cards on one unit.


We kicked around a couple of ideas, including making the checkbox only be an additional plus/minus 1 die.  While that fixes the power problem, it doesn't fix the decision tension issue:  you go from checking the box after you have the card to not checking the box that much.

One idea we had was return to the concept behind Marcus's original checkbox: that it boosts wounding somehow.  We have the bonus on the Command Cards be the same (+1 Pow or +1 Toughness), but you have to erase the checkbox box.  Then we have the checkbox average to about that value (i.e. +1 Pow) but you have to erase it before you roll to wound, so you are unsure of the benefit.  

Scott suggested rerolls, specifically you can erase the box to reroll all 6s to wound.  I suggested rerolling up to 2 failed to-wound rolls.  I also suggested maybe that after you roll to wound, you lower the result of one to-wound die by 1.  So it'd be something like:

Jotunkin:  play 1 CA to mark the box.  You may erase the box after you roll to wound.  You may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll.  


And a card like Heil to the Hammer would read like:

Hail to the Hammer: Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.  You may erase the Jotunkin box before rolling to hit to get an additional O:(+0)+0/+1 this attack.


The idea here is that you have to make a decision:  do I erase the box pre-hit roll to get a sure thing?  Or do I wait to erase it for the reroll?  The reroll gives me a bigger potential but the Pow bonus is more a sure thing.


For Freya's Haven you'd have less of a dynamic, because its a Blue card.  Still, people would have to decide whether to erase the box then or save it for the attack.

The one I don't see working out is Shield Wall.  Since its played in the M&C phase, its too easy for me to get the bonus of the marked box.  Especially on your enemy's turn:  you get the bonus while he attacks and then you erase it when you make your attacks second.  You could make it an "erase to get the bonus" but -1 die is way too weak to be worth it.  Honestly, I suggest ditching the cookie here.  It's a good card as is, and I don't think every card needs to have a checkbox cookie to capture the theme.



When it comes to units, Scott only took 4 and the Bear Cavalry never saw combat.  So I can't say much about them.  One thing I can say is that Impulsive and Large can make them hard to maneuver (i.e. forests).


The Midgard Warriors worked well.  Scott & I debated the impact hit vs giving them the cavalry +1 Pow on the charge and he's come around to the impact hit.  His concern was that they'd feel too much like phalanxes, but he didn't get that feeling in the game.  Part of that was because phalanxes are actually pretty difficult to maneuver, whereas these guys could go into terrain and whatnot.  I also liked the feel of the Cge 13 and the 4/2/4 hit boxes.  Its the right mix of brave vikings who are definitely more warrior than soldier.


The Shield Maidens were a solid unit.  They're not spectacular but you'll see them quite a bit because its an affordable way to get Skill 6 on the table.  Its interesting because they'll likely show up in fairly high numbers for some matchups.  I don't think 2-3 in a game is crazy.


The Einherjar were interesting.  They're basically just fearless, auto-close Warriors with a few more boxes.  Being able to play cards on them isn't something you normally see on fearless, auto-close units.  The one thing, and this is more of a head scratcher than an actual complaint, is that Scott was sort of taken aback by their statline at first.  These are the soldiers of Valhalla, rewarded with eternals life for valor and skill. . . . and they're O:(5)5/5  D:2/2.  Pretty "m'eh" stats for the heroes of Midgard.

The problem is that they can't really be a (5)6/6 unit because those are Sons of Odin.  And they can't really be a O:(5)6/5 D:3/2 unit because that's the Shield Maidens's statline.  

One thought we had, and this is just spitballing by both of us, was to give the Einherjar the stats of the Shield Maidens (representing that they are skilled with the eternal fighting they've done) and make the Shield Maidens into a Battle Squad type unit.  Something like:

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
303 points

Shield Maidens (Elite) (3) 5/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
153 Points


These are just ideas, mind you.  Not pushing for this change, just tossing ideas out there.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 01, 2015, 04:10:29 PM
Call of Valhalla did get played once and we both agree its a really lame card.  The cookie for the checkbox is too weak to justify the card being lamers than Uncommon Valor.  We think this card needs to be reviewed.  Of the top of my head, I'm wondering if a weak reroll is about right:  rather than a +1 Cge w/reroll just do a simple reroll with no bonus.  That would put the yellow check success rate (after the reroll) at 93%, which is actually a little higher than Cold Blooded on a Cge 12 unit.
I agree that the card is weak.  I wanted to err on the side of caution on the low end.  A flat re-roll is reasonable, though pretty blah on the flavor.  I'm wondering if there would be a small cookie that could be tossed in there other than giving the unit a +1 courage to make it a Cold Blooded clone.  Perhaps a straight-up re-roll and the unit gets a +2 bonus on a certain condition like it's being pinched?

Freya's Haven, Show your Swords, and Heil ( :P) to the Hammer got played a lot, and we really don't like the interaction with the checkbox.  First, there is no decision tension here:  you will never erase the box over using it in conjunction with a command card.  The bonus provided by the command card is just better.

Second, we feel its overpowered.  If you're spending 1 CA to go to (+1)+1/+1 or (+1)+0/+2 that's fine,  but that's not what will happen.  I'll spend 1 CA to get the benefit of Show Your Swords this turn and then next turn I'll play Show your Swords again.  Or I'll play Show your Swords and then Freya's Haven.  Or I'll do both.  You're going to mark the box with the intent to use 2-3 (or more) faction cards on that unit.

Third, we didn't like the "go fish" dynamic that this creates.  Normally, we spend an CAs on command and control then decide whether to allocate the rest between checkboxes or command cards.  Usually it's cards.  

With this interaction, you're going to wait to mark the checkbox till you have the cards, so you end up spending 1 CA at a time.  Normally the dynamic is "Okay, I spend 1 CA here to not get pinched. . .then draw 3 cards."  With this it's "Okay, I spend 1 CA to not get pinched. . .draw 1 card, check see if its a faction-specific. . .draw 1 card, oh I got Heil to the Hammer so now I'll spend that last CA to mark the box."

I'll admit its a personal preference, but it feels wrong to fish for the right cards and only mark the checkbox after you know you have them. There's no decision tension anywhere:  you fish for the faction cards, then you mark the box when you get them, and you drop 2-3 cards on one unit.
I see where you are coming from here.  I sort of liked the idea of a go fish dynamic, but it it's blazingly obvious that you'll always do this instead of using the check box for the ability itself then it's no good.  I'm thinking this is more s symptom of the check box ability itself not being very useful.

Jotunkin:  play 1 CA to mark the box.  You may erase the box after you roll to wound.  You may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll.  
This sounds an awful lot like Wuxing's Reliable

The one I don't see working out is Shield Wall.  Since its played in the M&C phase, its too easy for me to get the bonus of the marked box.  Especially on your enemy's turn:  you get the bonus while he attacks and then you erase it when you make your attacks second.  You could make it an "erase to get the bonus" but -1 die is way too weak to be worth it.  Honestly, I suggest ditching the cookie here.  It's a good card as is, and I don't think every card needs to have a checkbox cookie to capture the theme.
Dumping the ability box interaction is OK.  Even then it's a pretty strong card IMO.  I wonder if there should be an additional price you need to pay to play it like pitching a card or whatever.

The Midgard Warriors worked well.  Scott & I debated the impact hit vs giving them the cavalry +1 Pow on the charge and he's come around to the impact hit.  His concern was that they'd feel too much like phalanxes, but he didn't get that feeling in the game.  Part of that was because phalanxes are actually pretty difficult to maneuver, whereas these guys could go into terrain and whatnot.  I also liked the feel of the Cge 13 and the 4/2/4 hit boxes.  Its the right mix of brave vikings who are definitely more warrior than soldier.
Cool!  In my mind one of the most important things is to make the meat and potatoes units preform properly and feel right while doing so.

The Shield Maidens were a solid unit.  They're not spectacular but you'll see them quite a bit because its an affordable way to get Skill 6 on the table.  Its interesting because they'll likely show up in fairly high numbers for some matchups.  I don't think 2-3 in a game is crazy....

...Shield Maidens (Elite) (3) 5/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
153 Points
I'd hate to see them become another Battle Squad.  I envisioned them being a slight novelty line unit that could actually deal some damage but still hang in there a bit.  I'm not saying that I'll blindly stick to what I've currently got, but a 153 standard BS wanna be strikes me as something players are going to do their best to semi-spam on many occasions.

The Einherjar were interesting.  They're basically just fearless, auto-close Warriors with a few more boxes.  Being able to play cards on them isn't something you normally see on fearless, auto-close units.  The one thing, and this is more of a head scratcher than an actual complaint, is that Scott was sort of taken aback by their statline at first.  These are the soldiers of Valhalla, rewarded with eternals life for valor and skill. . . . and they're O:(5)5/5  D:2/2.  Pretty "m'eh" stats for the heroes of Midgard.

The problem is that they can't really be a (5)6/6 unit because those are Sons of Odin.  And they can't really be a O:(5)6/5 D:3/2 unit because that's the Shield Maidens's statline.  

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
303 points
I think there are already plenty of expensive units in the faction and I'm not happy with the idea of creating another one.  That said, I like the idea of them being more than a roving meat wall like they currently are.  What do you think of taking your idea and thinning out the hit boxes, reflecting a ghostly element to the unit?  So you'll get:

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
272 points

And if you remove the Jotunkin box they go down to 259 points, which is a nice place to be.  They become an offensive minded unit which is much better for a unit on auto-close than the tank-like unit we had that was also on auto-close.  Now if we take this path with the Einherjar the Shield Maidens will certainly need to be changed somehow because now these two units would be stepping on each others toes.

To me, the biggest issue is getting the check box ability right and that has been my biggest struggle with this faction so far.  I'm sure we'll bounce a few more ideas around in the near future.

Thanks for your input, it's a big help!
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 05, 2015, 01:00:46 PM
Call of Valhalla did get played once and we both agree its a really lame card.  The cookie for the checkbox is too weak to justify the card being lamers than Uncommon Valor.  We think this card needs to be reviewed.  Of the top of my head, I'm wondering if a weak reroll is about right:  rather than a +1 Cge w/reroll just do a simple reroll with no bonus.  That would put the yellow check success rate (after the reroll) at 93%, which is actually a little higher than Cold Blooded on a Cge 12 unit.
I agree that the card is weak.  I wanted to err on the side of caution on the low end.  A flat re-roll is reasonable, though pretty blah on the flavor.  I'm wondering if there would be a small cookie that could be tossed in there other than giving the unit a +1 courage to make it a Cold Blooded clone.  Perhaps a straight-up re-roll and the unit gets a +2 bonus on a certain condition like it's being pinched?

That's basically We Few from the Alexander faction.  A couple of other ideas:

Up-gunned Spoils:  "play after you fail a courage check.  Lower the roll by 3."  A post-facto +3 to your roll.  And a +3 is basically the same effect as a reroll w/+1 Cge.  I have strong concerns that this would be too good on a Cge 13 faction, but we could see.  Maybe make it an "lower by 2, but if have the checkbox marked lower by 3."

Ignore Yellow/Red:  "Play after you fail a Cge check.  Reroll the check w/+1 if in the Yellow or +2 if in the red."  So in the Yellow its as good as Cold Blooded.  In the Red it's better, but if you fail a pinch check when you're in the Green it's worse.


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Freya's Haven, Show your Swords, and Heil ( :P) to the Hammer got played a lot, and we really don't like the interaction with the checkbox.  First, there is no decision tension here:  you will never erase the box over using it in conjunction with a command card.  The bonus provided by the command card is just better.

Second, we feel its overpowered.  If you're spending 1 CA to go to (+1)+1/+1 or (+1)+0/+2 that's fine,  but that's not what will happen.  I'll spend 1 CA to get the benefit of Show Your Swords this turn and then next turn I'll play Show your Swords again.  Or I'll play Show your Swords and then Freya's Haven.  Or I'll do both.  You're going to mark the box with the intent to use 2-3 (or more) faction cards on that unit.

Third, we didn't like the "go fish" dynamic that this creates.  Normally, we spend an CAs on command and control then decide whether to allocate the rest between checkboxes or command cards.  Usually it's cards. 

With this interaction, you're going to wait to mark the checkbox till you have the cards, so you end up spending 1 CA at a time.  Normally the dynamic is "Okay, I spend 1 CA here to not get pinched. . .then draw 3 cards."  With this it's "Okay, I spend 1 CA to not get pinched. . .draw 1 card, check see if its a faction-specific. . .draw 1 card, oh I got Heil to the Hammer so now I'll spend that last CA to mark the box."

I'll admit its a personal preference, but it feels wrong to fish for the right cards and only mark the checkbox after you know you have them. There's no decision tension anywhere:  you fish for the faction cards, then you mark the box when you get them, and you drop 2-3 cards on one unit.
I see where you are coming from here.  I sort of liked the idea of a go fish dynamic, but it it's blazingly obvious that you'll always do this instead of using the check box for the ability itself then it's no good.  I'm thinking this is more s symptom of the check box ability itself not being very useful.

I disagree.  If you make the checkbox give a +1 stat (Pow/Toughness) cookie on faction cards, and you don't have to erase the checkbox, then making the checkbox better doesn't solve the problem.  In fact it makes it worse, because with a weak checkbox it was already too good.  With a strong checkbox, you're rewarding people even more to stack multiple cards on the one unit.  And you're not introducing any design tension.  All you're doing is making it a better decision to "mark the box, play 2-3 cards, and then erase the box."

I think this is a design issue that you need to resolve before you can work out the checkbox.  I think you need to go one of two ways:

1)  If you want the checkbox to provide a bonus but not be erased when faction command cards are played, then the bonus has to be small.  It has to be something that over time will equal the value of erasing it.  For example, if erasing the checkbox is equal to +1 stat (Pow/Toughness), then the cookie for having it marked when you play the faction cards is +1 die (or -1 die) extra.  Over time, as you play multiple command cards on the unit you can get the same or better return as erasing the checkbox.  The issue that I have with that one is the decision will often be relatively easy:  play 2-3 cards and then erase the checkbox.  But the decision at that point becomes more about "should I mark the box early and maximize the benefit (a la Rune of Uruz) or is it more valuable to draw the card early on."  Like the Rune, I think the decision will be fairly easy:  good units get the checkbox and non-good units don't.

2)  If the cookie for playing the card with a marked checkbox is equally powerful as erasing the checkbox, then you should have to erase it when you get the cookie.  If you want decision tension then you'll have to either have the two do something different or do the same thing at different times.

An example of the former is erase the card to get +3 Cge or erase it when play a faction command card for +1 stat.  (This is just a hypothetical mind you, not actually suggesting this)  In this case, you'd have to choose whether to do more damage at the potential expense of routing this turn. 

And example of the former is the classic pre-roll vs post-roll bonus.  For example, if you erase it post roll to lower a die by 1 or erase when you play the card to get +1 Pow.  Both give you +.42 dmg (with a (5)5/5 attacking a 2/2), but the checkbox only gets used if you need it, whereas the +1 Pow might not get you anything (i.e. you didn't roll any 4s to wound).  The flip is the checkbox only gets you 1 extra wound, whereas the +1 Pow could get you 2-3 extra wounds (if you roll a bunch of 4s).

So if you choose option 2, then you further need to decide how the checkbox & bonus operate:  do they do different things?  Or are the same thing done in different ways?  Let's call them Option 2a and Option 2b.


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Jotunkin:  play 1 CA to mark the box.  You may erase the box after you roll to wound.  You may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll. 
This sounds an awful lot like Wuxing's Reliable

Yeah, but the Wuxing pay a price in points whereas this would be a price in CAs. 


I went ahead and put up a couple of different ideas, drawing on Option 2b above.  My thought is that if you played the faction card you could erase the box to get +1 stat (Pow or Toughness).  So the idea is that you're working off a baseline of +.42 dmg for getting +1 Pow.

From that I have 3 ideas for the checkbox ability:

A)  Mini-Follow Through:  erase the box after you roll to wound, lower 1 die by by 1.  Counts as a card.

B)  Super-Reliable:  erase the box after you roll to wound to reroll any 5s or 6s.  Counts as a card.

C)  Mini-Fortune Favors the Bold:  erase the box after you roll to wound to reroll up to 2 failed to-wound rolls.  Counts as a card.

Here's what I got at the various Xs & Ys:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7765/17381654345_88b4d93b31_b.jpg)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8777/17355809996_aed121c909_b.jpg)


As you'd expect, C is better than B.  The only question is: does B provide enough of a bonus (and if it doesn't, that is why C is here).

The other big take-away is that, as a general rule, A is going to be better at "monster killing" whereas B is going to be better at "chump killing."


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The one I don't see working out is Shield Wall.  Since its played in the M&C phase, its too easy for me to get the bonus of the marked box.  Especially on your enemy's turn:  you get the bonus while he attacks and then you erase it when you make your attacks second.  You could make it an "erase to get the bonus" but -1 die is way too weak to be worth it.  Honestly, I suggest ditching the cookie here.  It's a good card as is, and I don't think every card needs to have a checkbox cookie to capture the theme.
Dumping the ability box interaction is OK.  Even then it's a pretty strong card IMO.  I wonder if there should be an additional price you need to pay to play it like pitching a card or whatever.

I don't think so, honestly.  I think this is a fine card on a D:2/2 faction (and that the Umenzi card is a kind of weak one on a D:2/1 faction).  Of course, I could be wrong here, so we can check and see.

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The Einherjar were interesting.  They're basically just fearless, auto-close Warriors with a few more boxes.  Being able to play cards on them isn't something you normally see on fearless, auto-close units.  The one thing, and this is more of a head scratcher than an actual complaint, is that Scott was sort of taken aback by their statline at first.  These are the soldiers of Valhalla, rewarded with eternals life for valor and skill. . . . and they're O:(5)5/5  D:2/2.  Pretty "m'eh" stats for the heroes of Midgard.

The problem is that they can't really be a (5)6/6 unit because those are Sons of Odin.  And they can't really be a O:(5)6/5 D:3/2 unit because that's the Shield Maidens's statline. 

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
303 points
I think there are already plenty of expensive units in the faction and I'm not happy with the idea of creating another one.  That said, I like the idea of them being more than a roving meat wall like they currently are.  What do you think of taking your idea and thinning out the hit boxes, reflecting a ghostly element to the unit?  So you'll get:

Einherjar (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 3/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
272 points

And if you remove the Jotunkin box they go down to 259 points, which is a nice place to be.  They become an offensive minded unit which is much better for a unit on auto-close than the tank-like unit we had that was also on auto-close.  Now if we take this path with the Einherjar the Shield Maidens will certainly need to be changed somehow because now these two units would be stepping on each others toes.

I don't think a 303pt Einherjar is that much worse than a 270pt one.  I'd have concerns at 3/2/3 that the Einherjar might be too easy to beat up, frankly.

And then there's still the issue of them being the same unit as the Shield Maidens.  If you went this route with the Einherjar, then you'd have to come up with a new idea for the Shield Maidens.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 06, 2015, 05:49:50 PM
Another Option
D) Reliable with optional booster:  After you roll to wound you may reroll any 6s or you may erase the box to reroll 5s as well. Counts as a card either way.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 07, 2015, 02:34:50 PM
Another Option
D) Reliable with optional booster:  After you roll to wound you may reroll any 6s or you may erase the box to reroll 5s as well. Counts as a card either way.

Scott & I saw this right before we played yesterday (http://ymgforum.com/index.php/topic,10188.msg45195.html#msg45195), and we really liked it.  We thought it was a little weak if it always counted as a command card, so we went with it not counting as a card if you just reroll 6s.  Below is what we playtested, and our thoughts:

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Jotunkin:  Spend 1 CA to mark the Jotunkin box.  While the box is marked you may reroll any 6s on the to-wound roll.  If you did not play a Command Card, you can erase the box to also reroll any 5s on the to-wound roll.

This one is interesting, because it did have us discussing & debating whether or not Scott should erase it during the game.  We think there's really something to this ability, because while there's no real tension as to whether or not to erase it to reroll the 5s (because if you roll a bunch of 5s, you should usually do it, unless you need 1s or 2s to wound).  But the tension becomes "do I erase it for 5s now or do I keep it to get the cookie from the command cards?"

By itself, without erasing for the 5s, rerolling 6s is roughly equal to the Rune of Uruz.  It'll get you +.21 damage every turn (vs +.25 for the Rune), which is why we felt comfortable not having the passive ability count as a command card.  Erasing it for the 5s will average to +.42 damage...but you won't erase it when you do an average number of 5s.  You'll do it when you roll three or four 5s and so get maximum value.  That dynamic felt about right to us, at least with the limited number of games we've played.

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Shield Wall: Play during the Movement & Command Phase.  Your units get  D:+1/+0 this turn.  You may not play command cards while your units are being attacked this turn.

Call of Valhalla:  Play during a courage phase, after you fail a Courage check.  You may lower the result of the roll by 2.  If you have the Jotunkin box marked, you may lower the result by 3 instead.

I think maybe the Call of Valhalla got used once, but I don't think these cards even got drawn. 


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Freya’s Haven:  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.    Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional D:+0/+1 this attack.

Hail to the Hammer: Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.   Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

Show your Swords: Play during an attack before you roll to hit. Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

All three of these cards were used at least once.  The big thing is how does the checkbox giving the bonus feel.  On the surface it seems to me that you'd want to fish for these command cards and then mark the checkbox so you can get the bonus, but the more I more I look at it the more I think that's wrong.  Yeah getting (+1)+1/+1 is scary, but we're talking about only an extra .67 dmg for a whole extra CA.  For Heil to the Hammer, you're talking about +.5 dmg and for Freya's Haven you're getting an extra -.22 dmg, all for a whole extra CA.

Which leads me to think that the best use is like the Rune of Uruz:  put it on early.  Two turns of the mark and then erasing for a card is nasty, but for every CA you use to mark the box you lower the odds of you getting the card.

And the proof is in the pudding.  Scott used the checkbox with the command card several times in our game and it didn't feel too strong to me.  Marcus, I think Ron has hit this one square on the head.


My comments on the units:

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Huscarls (Core) (5) 5/6 1/3 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/3/3 (Call of Valhalla, wave Dasher)

Scott took four of these in our game, with the intent of spamming Pow 6 against Orcs.  I think these guys work just right.  They beat up pretty well on my Orcs, but they didn't feel too good.  But at the cost of going with them over Midgard Warriors meant that he had a really short line.


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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive, Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)   +1 Impact hit (2 total) when Charging.

Two games in a row these guys never really saw action.  They either flanked, pinched, or were flanked.  Still, it perhaps says something that that keeps happening.  These guys clock in at 375pts and so they are really scary.  Anything short of a dedicated 400pt unit is going to have a pretty tough time with them.


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Frost Giant (Elite) (5) 5/8 1/4 R- C-13 M-6"
Hit boxes 7/3/4
Large, Fearsome, Impulsive.  To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card. 2 Frost Blast boxes.  When unengaged, you may mark off 1 Frost blast box to give Frost Giant a 10.5" LOS ranged attack of (3) 6/6.

These guys worked about as well as you could expect.  A couple tweaks that I'd change, though, is the costs for things.  I'll chat with you privately about it.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 07, 2015, 10:21:49 PM
I like the decision tension, but the one thing which I wonder is whether or not the ability is just a touch too good if rerolling sixes doesn't count as a command card. I suppose you could bump up the unit price a bit if that were the case.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 07, 2015, 11:56:33 PM
I like the decision tension, but the one thing which I wonder is whether or not the ability is just a touch too good if rerolling sixes doesn't count as a command card.

Rerolling 6s is weaker than Rune of Uruz, so I don't think that it'll be too good.  I think we're clear there.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 08, 2015, 02:03:11 AM
Rerolling 6s is weaker than Rune of Uruz.
Not true. When you have 6 dice, like 5 out of the 12 units in this faction, rerolling 6's is on average the same as Uruz. When you have more than 6 dice, like on the charge turn or when certain command cards are played on certain units, rerolling 6's is on average better than Rune of Uruz. Also, that comparison ignores the faction card synergy and the optional booster if you want to reroll 5's, which I would ballpark at maybe half as valuable as rerolling 6's for free. So my seat of the pants calculation would be that rerolling 6's not counting as a command card along with the optional booster would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/2 times as good as Rune of Uruz. Even if you base it off a 5 dice unit that would be 15/12 times as good. I still like the additional decision tension you get by allowing the rerolling of 6's not count as a card, though. Also Uruz is not one of the stronger faction abilities, anyhow.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 08, 2015, 10:57:35 AM
Noted Ron.  we'll keep an eye on that one.  It's obviously stronger on the units with 6 offensive power, so Huscarls will inherit the scrutiny for the most part.

Faction units, ability, and command cards have been updated in the first post of this discussion.  Hide your women and children.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 08, 2015, 12:42:38 PM
Rerolling 6s is weaker than Rune of Uruz.
Not true. When you have 6 dice, like 5 out of the 12 units in this faction, rerolling 6's is on average the same as Uruz. When you have more than 6 dice, like on the charge turn or when certain command cards are played on certain units, rerolling 6's is on average better than Rune of Uruz.

That's true, my bad.  If Midgard Warriors are charging they'll get +.04 dmg over charging Dwarf Axemen.  However, on a non-charging turn the Midgard Warriors will get -.04 dmg vs the Axemen.  So that difference will average out pretty quickly and then the Rune will start giving a better return.  Mind you, we're talking a very minor difference here, so I think its fair to say that although the Rune gives slightly better over time, the two passive abilities are about on par.

Given that the passive Jotunkin ability is about equal to the Rune, I think its fair to say that it shouldn't block a command card.  I certainly doubt I'd ever pass up the chance to play a Strike or Might to get a bonus equal to +1 die.


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Also, that comparison ignores the faction card synergy and the optional booster if you want to reroll 5's, which I would ballpark at maybe half as valuable as rerolling 6's for free. So my seat of the pants calculation would be that rerolling 6's not counting as a command card along with the optional booster would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/2 times as good as Rune of Uruz. Even if you base it off a 5 dice unit that would be 15/12 times as good. I still like the additional decision tension you get by allowing the rerolling of 6's not count as a card, though. Also Uruz is not one of the stronger faction abilities, anyhow.

Everything you say here is true, but I believe we also have to keep the value of the Rune in mind:  it stays on the unit.  To use either of the boosted ability of Jotunkin you erase the box.  To me the way to think about it is that erasing the box isn't "bonus" damage but rather "accelerated" damage.  You're taking an extra 1/2 - 3/4 dmg in one turn rather than that extra damage over three turns.  Now, as a rule, early damage is more valuable than later damage, so you're right that we should keep that in mind that this ability may well be 3/2 the value of the Rune (which I clock at about worth +1 dmg over the course of the game).


Faction units, ability, and command cards have been updated in the first post of this discussion.  Hide your women and children.

You're just saying that because I'm here (https://youtu.be/GDXYzUlv0S8).   8)

Okay onto the update

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Einherjar (5) 6/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
244 points

Notes: THIS UNIT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

Scott & I kicked this one around and we both feel nearly any combination of stats could easily be justified:

--They could easily be Off Skill 6 & Def Skill 3, representing the best heroes training forever in Valhalla.  This unfortunately makes the Shield Maidens redundant.

--They could be (5)6/5, D:1/2.  They're dead, and if you kill them again they'll just wake up in Valhalla.  Not much incentive to even try to block.  Heck they could even have 6 dice or be Pow 6 as well.

--They could be (5)5/5, D:2/2 (i.e. normal Warriors who have more boxes & are Fearless).  Valhalla is for all who died in battle, not just the best warriors.  Bravery is more important than actual skill.  Having regiments composed only of heroes is more of a Greek thing.

The only combination I can't see is O:(5)5/5 D:3/2.  It simply wouldn't feel right for these guys to be tanky unless they had the matching offensive output.  Honestly, at this point I kind of lean towards making these guys O:(5)5/5, D:2/2.  It'd keep from having to redo the Shield Maidens, plus it wouldn't actually be a statline that is done that much.  If you make these guys high skill, then they're fearless High Elves.  If you make go the D:1/2 route, then they're very close to Umenzi Berzerkers.  There actually isn't a "fearless normal" unit in the game, they're all either chumps or suped-up units.


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Arctic Wolves (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C- 12 M-6"
Hit boxes 2/5/2
O (+2) +0/+0 and D +3/+0 during post-Rout Free Attacks. If Arctic Wolves Rout, they automatically rally at the end of turn. Is unaffected by your command Cards.  To play a Command Card on this unit you must first discard one Command Card.
180 points

Notes: Bigger, stronger, and smarter than their distant cousins in Ravenwood.
(This unit may get the axe)

I say pull the trigger and put these pups down.  In the two games we've played so far one thing we've discovered is that Midgard has a pretty large toolkit.  Although they slant towards easy access of Pow & Toughness, they have a pretty wide variety of units.  They can pretty easily get Skill 6 on the table and the Sons of Odin will make for a beat-stick of a unit.  They really can fight just about any army.

The one thing they lack is affordable speed.  They do have some 5" movers, but they don't have anything faster than that for less than 400pts, making them relatively immobile.  Combined with their Impulsive, it makes them somewhat susceptible to getting outmaneuvered.  Which is a good thing.  It feels right that the barbarian horde can be beaten by a discipline army that holds the center while the flankers come around.  Factions are defined by their weaknesses as much as their strengths and the Wolves cover an obvious weakness for them that I think we should preserve.


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Shield Maidens (Elite) (5) 6/5 3/2 R- C-13 M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/3 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher)
277 Points

Notes: THIS UNIT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS PENDING EDITS TO THE EINHERJAR.

I like this unit as it is.  The only change is that I think it should move to Standard.  I feel that enough of the women-folk could fight that they could show up in decent numbers.  


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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
377 points

This is another unit I think you should move to Standard.  Honestly, the cost is so prohibitive that I doubt you'll ever take more than two, which makes this moot in a lot of cases.  But even if you loaded up on Yearlings for your Core and took 3 of them, I don't think that's any more broken than Dusk Lances & Slave Warriors.  Really, making them Standard is for those "Standard = Core" missions where could just plop down 4 of them.

Oooo, just thought of an awesome build: 1 Fyrd Spear, 1 Huscarls, 2 Viking Raiders, and 3 Bear Cavalry.  You've just got to make these guys Standard.  Let people unleash the fury!

Also, Ron is right:  change the name to War Bear Cavalry instead of Polar Bear Cavalry.  War Bears just sounds so much cooler.


Command Cards

Okay this is just a personal opinion, but I really think the names of most of the cards should change.  They read too much like tracks off the album of some 80s thrash metal band.  Like every time I read Show your Swords or even Freya's Haven I can almost hear  Rammstein singing (https://youtu.be/kobx8cZFn00?t=30).  

"Show....Show your swords..."

I think you should go with more laconic names for the cards.  Something that sounds more like war cries and such.  I some Old Norse mottos/battle cries from their heroic poems that I think may be better.  Here's some suggestions:

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Shield Wall:

This one is fine.


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Call of Valhalla:

What about "From Death, Glory"?


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Freya’s Haven:
"Iron Perishes"?


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Hail to the Hammer:
Show your Swords:

Can't really think of any off the top of my head, but here's a list of random ones:

Vengeance is in Battle
Iron and Blood
From Suffering, Wisdom
Woe and Vengeance
Glory is in Life
Fire and Hate
Doom Arrives
Victory and Death
From Iron, Woe
Wisdom is in Vengeance
Fire and Battle
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 08, 2015, 03:13:22 PM

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Einherjar (5) 6/5 2/2 R- C- M-3.5"
Hit boxes 4/2/4 (Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, Impulsive, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier
244 points

Notes: THIS UNIT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

Scott & I kicked this one around and we both feel nearly any combination of stats could easily be justified:

--They could be (5)6/5, D:1/2.  They're dead, and if you kill them again they'll just wake up in Valhalla.  Not much incentive to even try to block.  Heck they could even have 6 dice or be Pow 6 as well.
I sort of like the D: 1/2 option.  That puts them at 208 points at 4/2/4 boxes.  Give them 6 attack dice and they go up to 231 points and frankly I'm OK with either of those.

Another approach would be to make them a D: 3/1 (skilled but ghostly) but again we're stepping on the Shield Maiden's toes.  A (5) 5/5 D: 2/2 unit with lots of boxes gets into tank territory which feels weird since this unit wants to run at the nearest enemy.

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Arctic Wolves (5) 5/5 2/1 R- C- 12 M-6"

I say pull the trigger and put these pups down.  
I have 13 units and this one is clearly the first in line for the chopping block.  I don't want to give up on them 100% yet, but they're on the clock.

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Polar Bear Cavalry (Elite) (6) 5/6 2*/3 R- C-14 M-5"
Hit boxes 3/3/2
Large, Fearsome, Cavalry, Impulsive
Cavalry. O (+0) +0/+1 and D +1/+0 while Charging (This is in addition to the normal Charging Bonus.)
377 points

This is another unit I think you should move to Standard...
Also, Ron is right:  change the name to War Bear Cavalry instead of Polar Bear Cavalry.  War Bears just sounds so much cooler.

You're right about them being expensive and still not something you'd use often in most cases.  Like Centaurs and Ancients.  And I can ride with them being called War Bears.

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Command Cards
.....

I'll look these over.  The good news is that a crappy name for a CC will never hurt playtesting :)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 08, 2015, 03:55:00 PM
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I sort of like the D: 1/2 option.  That puts them at 208 points at 4/2/4 boxes.  Give them 6 attack dice and they go up to 231 points and frankly I'm OK with either of those.

I'm having a hard time getting the costs right.  The only way I can get to 231pts is if I give them both "Engage_Only_Good" and "Impulsive."  And they can't have both.

Honestly, a Skill 6 unit for 230pts steps on the Shield Maiden's toes.  Why bother having a Skill 3 unit when you could just have a Fearless unit.  Plus this unit starts to look a lot like Umenzi Berzerkers.

What about O:(6)5/5, D:1/2, 5G/2Y/5R, 223pts?  They're easy to wound but lots of hit boxes. 


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A (5) 5/5 D: 2/2 unit with lots of boxes gets into tank territory which feels weird since this unit wants to run at the nearest enemy.

I actually like this one the best, because its unique.  Its not really tank unit.  It a fearless Warrior unit.  And if I have 20 spare points and 5 core choices, upgrading one of these is almost a no-brainer to me.


Quote
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Command Cards
.....

I'll look these over.  The good news is that a crappy name for a CC will never hurt playtesting

I posted it up to get yours and other people's opinions.  Maybe I'm just talking crazy here and they're fine.  Or maybe my replacement ideas are just as corny sounding.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: opimius on May 08, 2015, 05:14:05 PM
A few points.  On the Einherjar, the 5/5 statline doesn't feel at all right to me.  I like them at (5)6/5 1/2.
The wolves - they have got to go, or at least change so much that they are a completely different unit.  I think they are unnecessary, and agree with Corey's point about them having a lack of cheap speed being an army defining trait. 
The Giant - this guy is really good.  I might think about bumping him to a 2/4 just to raise his price, and/or moving him to a 5 move so at least he isn't filling the role of fast cav in a pinch.  Fast moving guys that really thump tend to wind up undervalued, because they can blow up their flank and start pac manning the line, at least a slower mover has some drawback (it hasn't come up with this guy yet, but with the other Giant, a 5 sidestep is really, really nasty - it can become a borderline teleport). 
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 08, 2015, 11:01:32 PM
Command Card names spitballing
Bragi's Favor  Play during a courage phase, after you fail a Courage check.  You may lower the result of the roll by 2.  If you have the Jotunkin box marked, you may lower the result by 3 instead.

Freyja's Favor  Your unit gets D: +0/+1 and the attacking unit gets (-1) -0/-0 this attack.    Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional D:+0/+1 this attack.

Thor's Favor Play during an attack before you roll to hit.  Your unit gets O: (+1) +0/+1 this attack.   Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.

Tyr's Favor Play during an attack before you roll to hit. Your unit gets O: (+1) +1/+0 this attack.  Your unit can erase its Jotunkin box to get an additional O: (+0) +0/+1 this attack.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 11, 2015, 02:53:24 PM
Not a bad set of ideas Ron.  I'm thinking that we should change "favor" to something else like "aid" or "gift" and have each one be different.  And I think the courage card should be named after Heimdal because that dude was a badass.  So what do you think of these?

Heimdal's Esteem

Freyja's Blessing

Thor's Regard

Tyr's Aid

Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 11, 2015, 03:15:01 PM
Yeah, I was trying to think of something catcher than Favor

After reading Corey's comment about a unit starting to look like umenzi berserkers, it occurred to me that the word "berserkers" comes from viking warriors going into battle in a dervish-like trance and wearing bearskins instead of armor or bare-chested and shapeshifting into bears or wolves. It seems a shame that there is no unit of these. Also there seems to be a connection between berserkers and "Sons of Odin" http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 11, 2015, 03:35:24 PM
I'm on and off about including a Berserker type unit.  I was jokingly thinking of calling the Shield-Biters.  Read enough of the Icelandic Sagas and it would seem that everybody had an uncle, cousin, or brother that was a Shield-Biter ;D  The Einherjar sort of fill that roll in a game play sense.  I see them as having a (*) 5/6 offensive stat line, which I already have in the Huscarls.  And it would be easy to create something that is almost the spitting image of Umenzi Berserkers.  My question to you (or anybody else reading this) is do you think they would have a place in the faction and what would their stats look like?

The Sons of Odin are a fantastical creation that represents a group of divinely inspired warrior-priests.  While brave in battle, I don't envision them as being completely bonkers.

And BTW - if you watch History Channel's Vikings, Rollo is a total Berserker.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 11, 2015, 04:09:31 PM
I think these are my best pairings considering that regard is a synonym for look at and Heimdall is the allseeing one

Heimdall regard
Freyja valor
Thor might
Tyr honor or prowess
Loki guile




On the subject of berserkers I just thought that given their reputation for shapeshifting, they sort of bridge the gap between fantasy and history themes. Going into battle half naked but being immune to iron gives you license for just about any defense stat you want. I would put their offensive power at 6 or even 7. I know I remember reading somewhere that they had the strength of trolls. The part about them not being able to tell friend from foe is problematic, but maybe restricting command cards and jotunkin boxes would be close enough.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 11, 2015, 04:28:17 PM
I also seem to remember reading somewhere that berserkers fought in small bands of a dozen or so, so maybe 3 or 4 attack dice. As for how they fit into the faction, I don't see it working unless they are cheap enough to use as glass cannons, sort of like crazed goblins with better attack stats. I suppose the risk is that they would be preferred over fyrd spears the same way battlesquads are over cygnets or that the faction would be overloaded with elite units. I dunno maybe getting both the function and flavor right at the same time is not going to happen.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 12, 2015, 01:57:21 PM
A few points.  On the Einherjar, the 5/5 statline doesn't feel at all right to me.  I like them at (5)6/5 1/2.

The issue I have with that statline is it conflicts with the Shield Maidens.  They'll have the same damage output, trading D:3/2 for being Fearless.  My instinct says that I'll take the Fearless over the D:3/2.  I think it's a better idea to have the two units each with a distinctive role.


Quote
The Giant - this guy is really good.  I might think about bumping him to a 2/4 just to raise his price, and/or moving him to a 5 move so at least he isn't filling the role of fast cav in a pinch.  Fast moving guys that really thump tend to wind up undervalued, because they can blow up their flank and start pac manning the line, at least a slower mover has some drawback (it hasn't come up with this guy yet, but with the other Giant, a 5 sidestep is really, really nasty - it can become a borderline teleport). 

I have less of a concern for the Giant because it is 500pts. 


I'm on and off about including a Berserker type unit.  I was jokingly thinking of calling the Shield-Biters.  Read enough of the Icelandic Sagas and it would seem that everybody had an uncle, cousin, or brother that was a Shield-Biter ;D  The Einherjar sort of fill that roll in a game play sense.  I see them as having a (*) 5/6 offensive stat line, which I already have in the Huscarls.  And it would be easy to create something that is almost the spitting image of Umenzi Berserkers.  My question to you (or anybody else reading this) is do you think they would have a place in the faction and what would their stats look like?

The way that I look at it is that any unit that's Impulsive is basically a "berzerker" unit, all hepped up and eager to get into combat.

I think adding another Pow 6 unit into the faction is just going to make some unit become stay-in-the-box (either this unit or some other unit that this would supplant as "the unit you take when you want Pow 6").  This is the issue you're going to run into when you have infantry heavy armor:  you're quickly going to run out of permutations.  You have a Pow unit, you have a skill unit, you have a skill+pow unit, you have a fast infantry.  If the Einherjar become any of those, then I think you'll have a problem.

What about extra dice?  Maybe the Einherjar fight with a sword + hand axe instead of sword & shield:

Einherjar - Standard - 231pts
O:(7)5/5  D:1/2  R:-  Cge:-  M: 3.5"  5G/2Y/5R
(Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier.  Passes all Courage checks

If you want Skill 6, the unit costs 270pts, but I still say that I can easily justify Skill 5.  Nothing says that the dead have to be skilled (in fact, that they are dead would sort of imply otherwise).  And once dead, they don't really have an incentive to actually get better at fighting.  Just gonna wake up the next morning anyway.  A bad day for an Einherjar would be mortally wounded but taking a long time to die.




Not a bad set of ideas Ron.  I'm thinking that we should change "favor" to something else like "aid" or "gift" and have each one be different.  And I think the courage card should be named after Heimdal because that dude was a badass.  So what do you think of these?

Heimdal's Esteem

Freyja's Blessing

Thor's Regard

Tyr's Aid

Ugh.  Sorry, I guess this is a personal preference for which I am outvoted, but man those names feel cartoony.  I don't know why, but naming the cards after Norse gods makes them sound like home brewed Cleric spells from someone's D&D game.

Edit:  I figured it out!  It's Order of the Stick.  Those names sound like something that would come out of Order of the Stick.  That's why they sound cartoonish and slapstick.  Aww, man, now that I realized it I'm never gonna be able to play those cards without pronouncing them with Durkon's accent!


I also seem to remember reading somewhere that berserkers fought in small bands of a dozen or so, so maybe 3 or 4 attack dice. As for how they fit into the faction, I don't see it working unless they are cheap enough to use as glass cannons, sort of like crazed goblins with better attack stats. I suppose the risk is that they would be preferred over fyrd spears the same way battlesquads are over cygnets or that the faction would be overloaded with elite units. I dunno maybe getting both the function and flavor right at the same time is not going to happen.

Actually this is the sort of thing that could be captured in the artwork.  The way that I see it, attacks don't scale linearly with men.  Compare Battle Squads & phalanxes, or how Knights can be so few but actually put out a lot of dice.  I think that you could easily say that if a Hawkshold unit of 28(?) guys on the card = 5 dice, that Midgard guys have a higher "attack die output to model" ratio.  There's already a precedent for this:  High Elves have fewer guys on that card than is traditional.  You could simply adapt that ratio to capture the feeling of a warband.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on May 12, 2015, 04:13:12 PM

Not a bad set of ideas Ron.  I'm thinking that we should change "favor" to something else like "aid" or "gift" and have each one be different.  And I think the courage card should be named after Heimdal because that dude was a badass.  So what do you think of these?

Heimdal's Esteem

Freyja's Blessing

Thor's Regard

Tyr's Aid

Ugh.  Sorry, I guess this is a personal preference for which I am outvoted, but man those names feel cartoony.  I don't know why, but naming the cards after Norse gods makes them sound like home brewed Cleric spells from someone's D&D game.
Well they could use some tweaking, but I think you might be slightly overestimating the strength of the relationship between the words and the concepts you associate with them. Anyhow, here are some more candidates:
Sound the Horns
Valor, Our Shield (OK I am stuck on Valor, so sue me.)
Ymir's Legacy
Rune of Tyr (I wanted to stay away from runes, especially since IIRC the "Tiwaz Rune" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwaz_rune) is on the art for one of the dwarven rune cards, but you pushed me into it, Corey, congrats.  :P)
    Winning-runes learn,
    if thou longest to win,
    And the runes on thy sword-hilt write;
    Some on the furrow,
    and some on the flat,
    And twice shalt thou call on Tyr.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 12, 2015, 05:51:13 PM
Quote
Rune of Tyr (I wanted to stay away from runes, especially since IIRC the "Tiwaz Rune" is on the art for one of the dwarven rune cards, but you pushed me into it, Corey, congrats.   :P)

I did say I was apparently in the minority on the names.   ;)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 13, 2015, 12:01:53 PM
What about extra dice?  Maybe the Einherjar fight with a sword + hand axe instead of sword & shield:

Einherjar - Standard - 231pts
O:(7)5/5  D:1/2  R:-  Cge:-  M: 3.5"  5G/2Y/5R
(Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier.  Passes all Courage checks

If you want Skill 6, the unit costs 270pts, but I still say that I can easily justify Skill 5.  Nothing says that the dead have to be skilled (in fact, that they are dead would sort of imply otherwise).  And once dead, they don't really have an incentive to actually get better at fighting.  Just gonna wake up the next morning anyway.  A bad day for an Einherjar would be mortally wounded but taking a long time to die.
You know what's funny?  This is actually really close to what I think a Berserker unit would look like in this faction.  This is certainly a decent candidate for Einherjar stats.  I wonder if it would be fitting to make them fearsome.  You know... ghosts descending from the skies to do battle and all that fine stuff...

Ugh.  Sorry, I guess this is a personal preference for which I am outvoted, but man those names feel cartoony.  I don't know why, but naming the cards after Norse gods makes them sound like home brewed Cleric spells from someone's D&D game.
The card names are not that urgent of a thing at this point in the game.  We could call them Card A, Card B, Card C, Card D and Card E for all I care right now as long as we can determine that the cards themselves are fine.  Keep the suggestions coming and this aspect of the faction will shake itself out in time.  I do think Shield Wall may stick, though.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on May 13, 2015, 12:29:54 PM
What about extra dice?  Maybe the Einherjar fight with a sword + hand axe instead of sword & shield:

Einherjar - Standard - 231pts
O:(7)5/5  D:1/2  R:-  Cge:-  M: 3.5"  5G/2Y/5R
(Jotunkin, Wave Dasher, 1 impact hit on charge)
Can only have a Close standing order with no modifier.  Passes all Courage checks

If you want Skill 6, the unit costs 270pts, but I still say that I can easily justify Skill 5.  Nothing says that the dead have to be skilled (in fact, that they are dead would sort of imply otherwise).  And once dead, they don't really have an incentive to actually get better at fighting.  Just gonna wake up the next morning anyway.  A bad day for an Einherjar would be mortally wounded but taking a long time to die.
You know what's funny?  This is actually really close to what I think a Berserker unit would look like in this faction.  This is certainly a decent candidate for Einherjar stats.  I wonder if it would be fitting to make them fearsome.  You know... ghosts descending from the skies to do battle and all that fine stuff...

If zombies aren't Fearsome, I don't see how spirits are Fearsome.  Admittedly, there never has been a good template for when something is fearsome. 

I sort of back-construct it as something that provokes an atavistic response:  a larger-than-you predator or some psychic effect that evokes nightmare where you're running from that-unseen-thing.  The former is why Large guys are Fearsome and the latter is how I justify Dark Elves being Fearsome.  Their armor includes some gestalt magic that taps into your fear response.  It's also how I justified the Warriors in the Mist being Terrifying, as they have a psychic scream a la the Shadows from Babylon 5.

If you make them fearsome, then I think that should be kind of what the unit is about.  If its just a bunch of guys, I don't think so. (note the Asgard myth doesn't say they're incorporeal spirits, but rather warriors reborn whole and just missing a pulse)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 13, 2015, 02:40:15 PM
If zombies aren't Fearsome, I don't see how spirits are Fearsome. 
Good point.  I was just spitballing anyways.

Admittedly, there never has been a good template for when something is fearsome. 
Frankly, you could make an argument that the entire Undead faction could be fearsome.  Who wouldn't crap their drawers when they are about to be ridden down by Skeleton Cavalry?  There's quite a few units that I thought should have been fearsome.  Like every Knight unit in the game.  Bear Packs.  Tyrants - "7 foot tall 300 pound reptilian warriors?  I'll pass!".

But I digress.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: gull2112 on May 16, 2015, 07:55:10 PM
Seeing that fearsome is really only an annoyance (as opposed to routing if you failed!), I wouldn't have a problem if the whole faction were fearsome. It would certainly make it easier to remember to test for it when charged!
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: gornhorror on May 17, 2015, 01:07:46 PM
Please don't make line units fearsome.  Leave that for large, colossal, monster units etc.   This is one of the reasons why the Dark Elves ended up being broken.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on May 18, 2015, 09:43:27 AM
No worries there, I was only tossing out the idea of making the Einherjar Fearsome and they are a Standard unit.  I've already moved on from it.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: gull2112 on May 22, 2015, 07:06:34 AM
The Roaring Trumpet (http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/9781625793201/9781625793201___3.htm), L. Sprague de Camp
Those of us who are married can laugh at the roaring trumpet, each spouse thinks its a good name (for different reasons) for their partner. ;D
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on July 31, 2015, 10:52:44 AM
OK, Corey and I have been going at it again.  To be honest, this is almost as much his faction as it is mine now.  We made some major changes to the ability and unit names as well as dumping a few units (Arctic Wolves, Yearlings).  There have been some changes in existing units (Sons of Odin, Frost Giant, Einherjar) and the Dishonored where introduced to replace the Yearlings who basically got rolled into the Warband where they belong.  We also did an overhaul on the command cards.  The updated faction can be seen in the first post of this thread. 

While it wasn't by design, it turns out that this faction contains a few high priced units.  We're fine with that because that promotes replayability because you can never take all of the candy at once.

I'll post the history points for units along with further flavor stuff in the near future.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Hannibal on July 31, 2015, 04:48:30 PM
OK, Corey and I have been going at it again.  To be honest, this is almost as much his faction as it is mine now. 

I wouldn't say that.  I never would've done the faction the way you have.  I would've constantly wrestled with ways to put a new spin on the concept of vikings, and probably never got very far.  I would've never embraced the theme like you have.

For better or for worse, this is your thing....   :P
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on August 01, 2015, 02:36:57 AM
Just keep on holding that heathen hammer high...
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on July 15, 2016, 06:45:52 PM
(http://media.oglaf.com/comic/indoorfun.jpg) (http://oglaf.com/indoorfun/)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on August 27, 2016, 03:16:04 PM
(http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1472136214-20160825.png) (http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/life-as-a-berserker)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on August 27, 2016, 05:00:14 PM
Hah!  Nice!  I was about 90% done with these guys.  When time allows I need to take them off of ice, so to speak.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on August 10, 2017, 02:09:49 PM
The golden age of Fantasy/SF had quite a bit of historically inspired fiction from the Viking era. Poul William Anderson in particular took a lot of inspiration from this theme. I checked these links to a couple of stories that are free to read online and they are still working.

(https://dabuttonfactory.com/button.jpg?t=the+valor+of+cappen+varra+by+...+POUL+ANDERSON&f=Droid+Serif-Bold-Italic&ts=24&tc=fff&tshs=1&tshc=444&hp=22&vp=11&c=10&bgt=gradient&bgc=3d85c6&ebgc=073763) (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29542/29542-h/29542-h.htm)

(https://dabuttonfactory.com/button.jpg?t=The+Roaring+Trumpet+by+...+L.+Sprague+de+Camp&f=Droid+Serif-Bold-Italic&ts=24&tc=fff&tshs=1&tshc=444&hp=22&vp=11&c=10&bgt=gradient&bgc=3d85c6&ebgc=073763) (http://www.baen.com/Chapters/9781625793201/9781625793201___3.htm)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on December 22, 2017, 04:24:44 PM
(https://www.myiconart.com/215607-thickbox_default/led-zeppelin-t-shirt-immigrant-song.jpg) (https://youtu.be/RlNhD0oS5pk)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on December 27, 2017, 01:05:49 PM
Nice one Ron!  I need to revisit these guys, they've been on ice for way too long.
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: BubblePig on December 27, 2017, 02:09:41 PM
The image is also a link. Try it out!
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: Karasu on December 28, 2017, 11:56:51 AM
Nice one Ron!  I need to revisit these guys, they've been on ice for way too long.

Was that deliberate?
 ::)
Title: Re: Vikings of Midgard
Post by: RushAss on January 02, 2018, 10:35:01 AM
Hah, nice Ron!

And yes Karasu, that was totally deliberate.  I have kids and hence am cursed with a heavy dose of dad humor.